Who Are You? Alice of Oz with Terence Sullivan and Ellen Baker

0:00 There was a page about logic that I sent a friend and it was like basically screw logic. In the absence of, in the absence of logic, magic. Yes. In the absence of logic, magic. Can we, can we, can we go there? Like, yes. Cause like that speaks to my soul, but in not in ways that I can bring to life. Like what does that look like for you, Terrence? Like how does that, how does that sentence come to life for you? I think for me, it was like in the context of the story, it was very much a turning point where Alice could start to make her own decision about why.

0:41 And where she. Could start to entertain the idea that maybe I am this thing that other people see in me. And so it's not that logic is actually absent. She is deciding to set it aside. Friends we are back with our dear friends terrence and ellen and i am so excited because 20 minutes before i hopped on the zoom call i i finished i finished the book yay it was so good i am so honored oh my gosh well no i'm honored because you guys are back for round two.

1:40 And i just yes and thank you for having us. Thank you for being here. Friends, I'm taking for granted the fact that you know who I'm talking with. This is Ellen Baker, author extraordinaire and Terrence Sullivan, TikToker and also author extraordinaire and creative genius. Terrence, I've been watching your trailers for the book and they're like little movies. Like I've actually had, because I've been promoting the book because I believe in every, not only do I believe in the entertainment value, but I also believe in the story behind it, which we're going to dig deeper into today, but also I've had friends now responding to these, to the sharing that I've been doing about the book. And they're all saying, is this going to be a movie? Like, is, is this a movie? They're confused. They think they're watching a movie. Are you picturing it like a movie in your head when you're doing all this?

2:32 I usually, yes. I mean, that was, that was sort of how I, I mean, that's my approach to writing. I think I just sort of see it cinematically. And so I have a hard time, uh, divorcing that way of thinking from making content so some of the more cinematic stuff isn't i think as directly um communicative about what the book is about so so there's a little bit of like a content mix up happening right now where i'm just trying different things and you know seeing what's landing. What's been landing? Like, how's it been going? Like we are, we're a couple of about a month and a half out. We have a bestseller. You were on the Amazon bestseller list. Yay. Yes.

3:13 Yes. So tell me, tell me how it's going. Um, it's exceeding my expectations. Um, so I had set some goals for myself and, um, kind of blew past them. So it's really amazing. Um, I am realizing, and I wrote Ellen an email about this today, I kind of have to figure out what the hell I'm doing right now. Because I have so many things happening at once that I'm not taking the time to really, oh, did this ad send anyone anywhere? I'm just like, oh, books are selling, books are selling, more, more, more. But it's going really well. That's good. I mean, that's a good problem to have.

3:55 And it can be difficult to slow it down and make it work for you instead of feeling like you're trying to play catch up. So I am curious, you've gotten a lot of very positive feedback. You said the feedback so far has exceeded expectations, which is great and not surprising to me in any amount of anything. And I'm curious, what has touched your heart most? Like, is there something that has really truly– and I would love for both of you to answer this because going through the journey that we went through to get here, I understand that there– obviously, we're dealing with imposter syndrome. We're dealing with believing in things we can't see. We're believing– we're working through character development and keeping– you know, the lore of three worlds precious in the best way we can.

4:44 So on the other side of the publishing process, now that we've had a little time, what stands out to you as something good that you didn't expect? Well, I think a real moment of validation came just this last week. An editorial review came in, and I know we talked about the most challenging scene that I had writing and Ellen and I editing, was the chess scene. And the, I think the quote from it was that it was one of the most important or best scenes in the book. And I think like that was, it's a real moment of like that hard work and that like that sort of relentless ability to keep going back into something really pays off.

5:28 So that was like, oh, it's really amazing. I'm smiling because I have a follow-up to that. But first I want to hear what Ellen has to say. Yes. So for me, the most. Touching part or the most moving part is always to read the reader reviews. And there's a mixed mixed advice on whether authors should go on Goodreads and read the reviews. And obviously not being the author and the editor. So I'm a step removed, but it's still very important to me to see what people are saying. And I have so loved seeing the response to this book because having watched quite a number of sets of reviews, early reviews start to roll in both my own books and friends, other friends. It's amazing the response to this book that a vast majority, like 80% of the reviews are five stars.

6:26 And these are not people that we know. These are people who have found the book through Terrence's content or through other means and are swept away by the world i think one says i fell down the rabbit hole hard um and the things that they pick up on are so lovely to see um they're touched by the characters they're swept away by the story they can't believe how good the book is and and for me i know um We worked very hard on this book so that that would be the exact experience that people would have. So to have the readers responding in that way is just so, so wonderful, just.

7:08 Out of the gate. I couldn't resist. You know, you said what you said about the authors not maybe reading the reviews. I don't think I could help it. Like I would be too, it would be too tempting. Yeah. For me, it's, it's kind of like the only data that I have. So it's hard not to like, I think if I were at like a big five and like some, there was a marketing team dealing with it, then I wouldn't have to, but like, I need to know and I need to use that for content. So it's like, there's no way not to look at it. Amen. And reviews are so important. Like for the friends that are here, like watching this. And if you like Terrence's book and you like Ellen's work, her books too are amazing. Like go review them. Now that I'm done, I feel like I can. Now that I finished Alice of Oz, I feel like I can rightfully actually put some thought and intention into writing the review. But I don't think our friends, as an author myself, I don't think our friends recognize or necessarily always realize how they can help. They want to help, but they don't know how.

8:05 So one of the ways that you can help Terrence and Ellen with both of their books is to go and do those reviews. It's a small thing. It takes 20 minutes and it actually makes a huge difference. I mean, it's It's informing how Terrence is marketing his book, which is huge and super important. And the fact that y'all brought up the chess scene, because I read the book, you know, and I actually kind of re-assimilated myself with our conversation. And friends, if you haven't done that part, like go watch the first conversation. You need to do that. Not necessarily to enjoy this one, but just for the added extra context of all the sparks and all the magic. And all of the things. Okay, so you go back and you watch and there's this part where I asked them about what they almost cut but didn't. And the idea that y'all almost cut the chess scene as I was getting to the chess scene and seeing what was built in the chess scene.

9:03 I was like, y'all, Ellen, you did good. You did good keeping it in there. It was the right choice because it made me want to know. Like, it made me want to sit with you guys today. Like, I wrote it down, page 266. It made me want to know, Terrence, who are you? Oh. I am like actively in what I would call an identity crisis. And I am asking myself that every day. Isn't that perfect friends? It is. That's the chess scene. That's the leading question in the chess scene. And I won't walk through all of them and I'm not going to spoil anything, but Terrence, who are you? Like, let's unpack it. Let's work through it.

9:49 Let's talk about it. Cause I hear you. I feel it. Let's go. I'm like, now I'm putting myself in Alice's position and sort of going through the arc of that scene. Like, how did Gaelic get her to her answer um I am I. Am someone who is constantly searching for some evolution of self and I am not sure what that evolution is meant to be but I continue forward regardless. That's beautifully said. Thank you. I just came up with it. And no editor on that one. You know why, Terrence? True to form, true to the story, true to all the magic that we're experiencing here in real time. It came from your heart. And you just spoke your truth. And that is a beautiful thing that I feel very seen in. And I also want to know what Ellen has to say. Ellen, who are you?

10:49 Well, I had to look at the scene and see how Alice responds. Alice says, I am Alice Liddell. She replied, afraid to break eye contact. And the queen says, no, the essence of who you are, what is in your heart. And then she, Alice, let's see. Alice says, if I were to answer honestly, I would say that if I gave you an answer, I'd likely not believe it to be true. I was quite sure of who I was for a time when I was younger as a younger person does, I suppose. There are times now where I doubt almost everything about who I am. So I don't know if that's you speaking, Terrence, or just Alice speaking for everyone in the world who evolves through stages of youth.

11:36 And as we. Talked about last time, grief and disruption to what we thought was going to happen in our lives and who we thought we were going to become. the essence of who I am, you can tell I'm trying to avoid answering that question. Yeah. The reading, I'm glad you read it, but also it's funny how we do that. Like it's funny how we do, we try to, it's like what we talked about last time when I didn't look at the mirror, right? Like it's the same, it's the same thing. And I think it's contributed to by the world telling us, This is who you are. And that's the issue is that the world is trying to tell you, no, no, you're this thing.

12:25 And when you know deep down that you're the other, that there's something else happening or that you are the human who is choosing to constantly evolve, even when it's messy and you're stuck in that icky, gooey butterfly phase that's gross. You know that the other side is coming, right? Like, but you don't know when and you don't know how and you don't know how you're going to get there. And one of the ways that we get there is through the people that are with us. Obviously, we know that that's important. We've talked about that and how you guys have created this world together. But also, like, what– I mean, either of you can take this. And I'll give you a pass on that, Ellen. Like, we can come back to it if you want to come back to it. But I'll let you get away with that for now. But what happens for either of you when we do finally just stop? We finally stop– letting the world tell us who we are and we start believing in the person that we're becoming?

13:24 I would like to know the answer to that. I think it's something I'm actively conscious of now, like my awareness of maybe like, I say this a lot, like just because I'm good at certain things doesn't mean that I need or have to be doing them. And so it's very much like, you sort of have to wake up every day and choose yourself in many aspects and say, I'm doing this today for me because I deserve to be doing this for me. Right. Did that answer your question? Kind of, yes. But it is a daily choice, right?

14:04 And it was a daily choice for me. I wake up and decide to choose me over alcohol every single day, right? And that is a daily choice that you can make And it definitely informs how you show up in the world and how you show up for other people. And I think that's part of where I'm leading is, you know, we can't be authentically helping other people if we're not authentically being ourselves. Because you're like, go ahead. Can I turn it on you actually for a second? Because I feel like I should share this with you. So a very dear friend of mine, Jessica, she's read every iteration of Oz.

14:45 Jessica Finch, yes. Yes. And has watched everything that comes out about it. And we were talking about you and I was saying, I just admire Ty so much because I feel like she, without any reservation, puts herself out there in a way that is so contagious and Jessica was like it is amazing how how like bright your personality is online and how like you were like you inspire confidence in me in terms of just like being able to put myself out there like I think it's really phenomenal. You gotta make a girl cry Terrence but you know it's interesting and I will go there because you opened the door thank you I I I don't think we talked about this last time and it would surprise me if we did because there's just so much to talk about.

15:35 But this book behind me on this side, for people that are not watching, go watch. It's better that way. The book behind me is called Triumphs of Transformation. And it's a book that was a compilation book that made me a bestselling author. And I got to go celebrate in New York City with Sign Time Square and was a whole thing. And my chapter... Thank you. Thank you. And my chapter in that book is called Becoming the storm. And when I say that, I'm thinking I'm fresh off less than an hour ago, finishing a book where our heroine, our Alice, became the storm, literally.

16:16 Literally. So when we talk about, you know, Terrence and I have this kind of ongoing thing on the internet where we're kind of joking back and forth that, you know, it's funny to us and I don't think anybody else maybe thinks it's funny, but the alchemy and the connection is very real in this story. Like, I feel like we, the three of us are almost like writing our own chapter of our own book in real time and it's beautiful. Which is why what you said is so important to me, because I wrote that chapter called Becoming the Storm. And storm is a framework that's in the chapter with self, the framework is self-love, tenacity, optimism, relationships, mindset. Those are the like the core beliefs essentially for me. And I had this unique opportunity to contribute a chapter to a book.

17:05 called Corporately Canceled, What Happens When God's Plan is Bigger Than Your Employer's Plan. And that chapter, friends, is called The Rainbow That Follows the Storm. So I did that on purpose. And this feels like part of the rainbow. And I don't really know exactly how yet, but our conversation, our connection, our alchemy, the three of us, feels to me like part of that rainbow that happens after the storm. So thank you for the kindness. And for me, you know, I, things did get very dark. Like things were unclear and I was very sick and I went through two really, really bad job transitions in a row back to back within a year that tore me into nothing pieces. And like what you're seeing on the internet is my conscious decision to wake up every day and be the light.

17:59 And like, you know, the way that, that even that integrates into this story, becoming the storm, becoming the light is super important to me, which is why when I saw this book, I was like, I need to talk to these humans and I need to connect with these humans because I feel that between the three of us, we have a contagious light and I'm grateful. Like I'm truly grateful. So I talked way longer than I meant to, but thank you. That was a long- I loved it. To say thank you because it's, it isn't, it isn't easy to show up and be cringy. And I mean, there was an era where I danced in hot tubs, but like the whole point was never to like, it was never about me and it's not about me. I really truly do want that spark to catch and to inspire other people to, to just, they don't have to post cringy videos of themselves on the internet, but they do have to lean into who they are and what is authentically lighting them up from the inside. And that is something that like has contagiously come from you guys.

19:01 And now for me in a way that I hope and truly sincerely hope does find ways to help and inspire others to do this, to do make the same choices and do the same and be the light that they wish they could see, especially in a time that's so challenging. Like we're living, you know, I know that no, like we, I was at the point in our conversation from last time where you mentioned laundries and I know that like the history and is gross. Like there's, there's bad things. It's always, there's always been trouble. There's always been struggle. There's always been bad things happening, but you guys have managed to, you know, be a light in this version of the dark times. So that's amazing. Thank you. Yeah. Well, thank you.

19:43 I think what I was going to add in regard to what you said about that question of who are you, the essence of you, um, one of the things that makes this book and makes Alice makes the book so wonderful, makes Alice such a wonderful hero is that it is her process of going through figuring out the answer to that question and learning, um, what it is that is inside her. She has no idea. Just like most of us, we don't know the extent of our full powers. And for me, I keep two quotes on my refrigerator, and I have for many years, I think even maybe before I met Terrence. And one of them is, without the darkness, you would never know the light. And so along comes Terrence, having written this story, and has these same ideas that.

20:39 We all think about is like, who am I? What am I doing? How can I bring more light? How and why does there have to be such darkness? Why? And that's why I keep it on the refrigerator to remind myself that. I'm still figuring it out too. And the darkness is easy sometimes to let it overshadow your thoughts or your processes or what you're doing or you think it's never going to be over. So those, the hopeful quote about like, okay, well, you've got to get through this and kind of like Alice going through her storm. So that's why I think the book just is so good for so many people. It is just so applicable to the journeys we all go through. It's a true hero's journey. And Terrence and I have had some conversations about, you know, can a woman, you know, there's, there's debate about that.

21:31 Can a woman be on a hero's journey? And there's, there's some, people out there who say a woman's hero's journey is different. I kind of... I like to think that a woman can be the hero of a story. Yeah, I forgot that we went down that rabbit hole. When I first. I think it was like the first draft, I was like, I had no idea, but there's apparently a school of thought that a woman's journey is different than the traditional hero's journey. And I was like, that is... stretching my mind in a really strange way. And so then I had to go down that rabbit hole and, um, it ended up her journey, regardless of what you quantify it as it was, it was the right journey for her.

22:15 Yeah. Yeah. So what part of your, cause part of one of the most important things that happens in that, that scene that we're talking about where there there's a storm, like she has to believe, like she has to decide she has to believe and she has to own magic that she doesn't understand. So how do you like, what parts of your magic are you still figuring out or still learning that you want to lean more into? Oh, um, I didn't mean to stump you. No, it's a, it's a great question. Um, Well, I mean, I think that now as I'm going into, as I'm beginning sort of the plotting process for the second and third, I think that I do have to sort of recalibrate and say, like, these were my strengths in, like, okay, actually, I did have this thought. Like, I don't actually know what my strengths are as a writer. Like, I couldn't tell you what they are. But once the work was where it needed to be, I was like, yes, that's great. But I like, you know, it's very hard to look at yourself in a way that's like objective and I think accurate in many ways. So I think that the magic is, I think discovering more about what

23:46 my magic is and leaning into that is probably the right answer. Yeah. So it's true to what you said before about, be evolving. Yeah. Yes. You're a day. It's literally, it's, it's that in different words. Um, so that, that checks out. What about you, Ellen? Yeah. And I think, um, I mean, I think I could give a pretty thorough inventory of Terrence's magic and could probably give it a thorough inventory of mine, whereas it's hard to see. One's own, um, Why do we make it that way? Like, why do we do that to ourselves? Like, I can't see it, but. I think it's because we're afraid. I think that there's a true part of me that feels like if I say it out loud, I'm afraid that it could be contested, right? Or that, like, if I fully show myself, what am I afraid that people will see is sort of, I think, what kind of encapsulates where the magic lives.

24:45 And I need to... be strong enough or brave enough to know how to open that up. Or also maybe it goes back to the mirror and how clear are the mirrors that we're looking into when we see ourselves, maybe the mirror is distorted and not showing us a clear picture of ourselves. Whereas if I look at you, either of you. And I can see, I see you through my eyes, I think that's why I love fiction writing so much is because you get to play with perspective and say, well, this character sees it this way and this character sees it this way. And it's the same situation, but it's totally different. So for that reason, I think I'd be happy to tell you all of your.

25:29 Magic, Terrence. But I mean, I think I would give a similar answer for that is that I'm also still looking to figure out, um, how to give credit where credit is due for the skills and gifts that I do have. Um, and Terrence has helped me with that because he's a wonderful mirror for me and telling me how, um, you know. What I bring to his, to his work. And, um, and a lot of that is, you know, the clear vision of the story and the, the wordsmithing and the things I've worked at all my life to be, you know, the word, the wordsmith, um, And so I can own that pretty well.

26:12 I'm not sure I have a clear picture of too much else. Well, I just think it's interesting that it goes back to Alice cracking when Wendy was under attack, right? It's like we're so much more likely to advocate for our friend under attack than we are for ourselves. And That that's, I mean, that's its own whole thing to unpack, but it's important that the people that you have with you in the journey are important. And I think that that's a, that's a, that's a takeaway from what you were saying about the mirror. You know, sometimes you have your keep, keep in mind that not all mirrors are created equal, right. And that there are mirrors that belong in your life and there's mirrors that don't belong in your life. And you, you know, part of choosing you is choosing what doesn't serve you or does not belong anymore.

27:03 Yeah. And that's hard. I think that's hard for some people to understand and really see like, okay, well, to stop speaking in the allegory, I guess we could just say those people are not meant for us. And it's okay. But that can be hard. Like, that can be a hard learning curve for a lot of people. And, you know, that's something for me. Like, that's something that I have to unlearn is I tend to be the person that gives everybody everything because that's who I am. And not everybody, you know, it's like our dear Taylor Swift says, like, your energy is expensive and not everybody can afford you. Right? Like, and that's what we have to do better, I think, in embracing is that energy and And knowing that it's kind of a sacred, magical thing, we might even say.

27:54 What would you add? You were going to add something, Terrence. No, I completely agree with that. I think saying no and protecting your own energy is something that I have only recently started to be like, I'm giving too much and I'm not keeping myself full. And that's not sustainable. Right. Right. So who is that for you guys? Like who, who are the people, who are the people you want? Like who, who are, who are, who is seeing the magic in you when you can't see it in yourselves aside from the two of you? Like, I know I was like, here we are. I were the three of us. I know it's, it's, we, we see it, but like, who is that person for you, Ellen? That's that are people who remind you who you are.

28:41 My fiance is, is my number one, um, best mirror and we talk about that in term with each other about um that that's part of our job in relationship is to be each other's mirror and to be an accurate mirror not just for not to show what not for him not to show me back like the way i think i am but for him to show me a more accurate view of of how who i am so he he is my um my hero in that way. And they've been engaged longer than I knew, but like officially, officially got engaged since we talked last. Like it was, it was, it was, they weren't gay.

29:25 Instagram official. I had told people personally, and then I just, yeah, it just came out on Instagram in October. I see. I didn't know so it was news to me I was like yay I was engaged how about you Terrence who sees your magic and reminds you. I have the most unexpected mirrors and it's it's my kids in a way that I didn't anticipate at all in that there, I think sort of the, you know, all of the things that we want to be as like our identity or we pile on as like, oh, I identify as this, doesn't matter in to, especially to autistic children. And so like my daughter, her nervous system is very much regulated by my ability to regulate.

30:23 And so I can see so easily my impact. In them. And so it's a really, it's a humbling experience and I'm emotional always, but it's, it's incredible. I'm a very different, I see myself very differently because of that. Oh, it's good to feel emotion here. This is a safe space for it. And I, I, I mean, there's not a day that goes by that I don't cry. Out of joy, normally. When I'm grateful, it comes down my eyeballs. It's getting worse with me as I'm aging. I used to be pretty much a daily person, but now it's like, well, that was a commercial. Tears.

31:10 Oh, absolutely. Everything. There's no control. But that's honestly, I think to be fair and give us like a proverbial hug, right? It's because we are authentically finally living in our purpose. Like I think that that's a big part of it is that you don't need to have that guarded, you know, like I can't show emotion. I must be robotic. You know, no, we can feel the feelings. Goodness. Oh, yeah. I'm all for it. I really want our friends to get this book. I want our friends to gift this book. I want our friends to read this book and absorb what's beyond. You know what? I'm going to do. I didn't plan on this, but I'm going to do it anyway. Because your friends can't probably see, but there's like earmarked pages like crazy. Oh, I love.

31:56 It. I wouldn't have had more time, but I did a lot of pointing and taking. I actually took a bunch of pictures of the pages. So there was this one, which was very personal to me, which is, does a storm not also replenish the land? Hello. But, oh, okay, I know the one. There was a page about logic. that I sent a friend and it was like basically screw logic. In the absence of, in the absence of logic, magic. Yes. Yeah. In the absence of logic, magic. Can we, can we, can we go there? Like, yes. Cause like that speaks to my soul, but in not in ways that I can bring to life. Like what does that look like for you, Terrence? Like how does that, how does that sentence come to life for you?

32:45 I think for me it was, Like, in the context of the story, it was very much a turning point where Alice could start to make her own decision about why. And where she could start to entertain the idea that maybe I am this thing that other people see in me. And so it's not that logic is actually absent. She is deciding to set it aside. And we watch her, especially up until... part two, we watch her slowly shed the sort of idea of propriety or the idea of how she should behave. And her true instincts really start to rack it up at that point. And that's when she starts to think more about the why behind her and more about, okay, I'm in this insane world. What else isn't what I've thought it is. Um, and I think that I am somebody who's, who's very, um, I am logic and, and, uh, logic driven and data driven.

34:01 And like, I know like things go this way. So I do it this way. Um, and it, there is a point where I'm like that I need to just go with what my gut is saying or like what I want to be doing in the, in, in spite of what I know, or how it should go. That's hard though. Like that is hard. Like you got to trust. And that goes back to seeing, doing what we can't see and believing what we can't see. And Alan had something she was going to say, and I don't want to interrupt. So go ahead. Yeah. I was just going to say almost this whole project is a result of believing in magic over logic because there was no reason, no reason why this should have happened or was meant to happen, or there was data to support this happening. This was a complete leap of faith to go from writing the other book we talked about last time, Once Upon a Winter Tide, which we worked on very hard together and then discovered that it's a seasonal book. And maybe it'd be better to try the Oz book as far as marketing wise and getting an agent and getting a publisher together. And so that was just this tremendous leap of faith. And I think we both believed in it so, so much. And, and there's nothing logical about it.

35:23 No. And to that, I mean, it's all logical to me now, but I was. Going to say, but I disagree, but I'll get there. Go ahead. To that point, even some of the reviews and honestly, once this sentiment started to come out, I was like, I understand why this was, why it was a challenge to get through querying and everything. Because someone wrote, I expected a gimmick, but instead got, and then they wrote something beautiful. And it's like, the order of this book or the ask, I mean, like the concept is like, this is crazy. Okay, good luck with that. You know what I mean? And so... I was like, no, I can do this.

36:07 I will do this. It is batshit insane to take all of these very beloved properties and characters and say, I am going to build this world that you're going to believe this is how this went. And that is the absence of logic. That is the blatant disregard of logic. Yes. And y'all, the history. And the actual dates and the map. Oh, hold on. Oh, I know. Welcome to my insane mind. I have a map. Oh, yay. It's blurry, but like I, I was, I was following some of the videos that you've done and I am, my mind is spinning. Cause, and I want to be like, Hey, explain it to me. Like I'm five because there's a lot going on. But what I'm, what I'm getting from the videos is that that a lot of this is, you know, we talked about it not being logical and it is like, if there's actually history and there's a physical map.

37:13 So talk about that. I'm so glad you asked about this. So when I started the research process, when I had the idea and I was like, okay, I'm going to do this. I also wanted, I was, for me, the big hurdle was like, these do not belong together. These are by different authors and, And so I was like, I need to find my real-world reason why this could and would be. And the answer was wildly.... My mind was blown when I found that each of these authors was like, I didn't write the book. It came from somewhere else. And then I started to research where that school of thought came from. And then I find that they're part of these societies and psychic networks.

37:59 And they're trying to expand in their way of thinking that they're receiving messages from other planes. And so for me, it was like, well, then this all came from one source. And then once if you go in with that thesis, you can I mean, it's where theory becomes thesis like you can really I can prove it out. I mean, is are we or is it now? But I don't know. It seems, you know, when I'm listening to the piecing of the things. So my friends know this. I have this thing that I joke about doing on the Internet and in my friendships. Where it's like the guy from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia with like the red strings.

38:42 And I do that in my life about the people and the places and the connections that I've made because it's been unreal to me because I do keep showing up and deciding that I'm worthy of showing up. I'm worthy of taking up this space and I'm worthy of inspiring other people to do the same. So as I've been on this journey, I've been jokingly using that red thread guy as like, Oh, this is Ty going on her like red thread journey again. Sorry, not sorry, but that's how, that's the vibe I get when, when Terrence is doing these videos where, but they're true. Like it's factual. Like he's not making this stuff up. Like it's actually history. And this is what these, these authors have shared as happening. And our friend Terrence is, I feel like, the chosen connector of the dots. And that's been really cool to see.

39:30 see happen out loud because I kind of knew those three things but I didn't know that I didn't know what he's been sharing about the research behind the stories and like that's where I'm my mind is blown because that's where I'm like whoa so Kensington Gardens and all the things And I'm leaning. I'm like, okay, I need something to keep track of it all because my brain is not keeping up. I know. Everyone's like they want a long-form YouTube video. And I'm like, maybe. Maybe. We'll work on that. Maybe someday. Yeah. Yeah, I'm actually so amazed that anyone can follow those videos.

40:10 Like I am like, this is nuts. And it's, I mean, it's not an easy thing to like visually. So I'm just like, here it is. Here's like where my brain was. But that has actually been the best marketing for the book. It doesn't even tell you what the book is about, but it has been the best marketing. But it does, it does in ways that are, create the curiosity that you need. And it's so intriguing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Ellen, I'm just, I'm picturing how Ellen was when you guys first started having your meetings. Like, how has that been to see like from all the red threads that were like spoken out loud to actually seeing it happen in real life?

40:52 Well, um, he, I mean, he didn't share a lot of that with me the back cause I, I didn't want as we talked about before I didn't want my my view of the story as it was as the reader would experience it I didn't want that to be polluted by all this new information and I am a historian also I write mostly historical fiction so I would have gotten totally caught up in the details and Terrence can tell you I make very detailed comments about you know the costumes and the pockets and So I'm into the details, but for this, I was like, I need to stay focused on the story. So really, he would just do his research, send me a manuscript, and I would take it as the reader with a blank slate and say, does this make sense or doesn't it? And as it happens, I think we did a really good job of putting together a story that just stands on its own with these characters who are familiar but new, and they're different than we've met them before. And they're having these experiences that are very different than what we've seen them have before. But it is very based in that foundation of where it comes from because Terrence did all the research. So I just think it's incredible. And I love watching those videos. I haven't delved into that myself.

42:19 It's a rabbit hole, all right. It is. It is deep. It's keeping me up at night. Well, it's not. I shouldn't say it like that. But it's definitely... The intriguing thing to me, and this is where, you know, we, I don't, I don't mean to gush, but I'm going to gush anyway, which is that like, I just, I just feel like being, reading this book made me feel like I was part of something special. Like reading this book and getting to talk with you guys, I feel like I'm part of something bigger and something special that, that makes a bigger impact than might meet the eye. Because of how deep it goes and because of the mindset part of it and because of going back to revisiting after reading the book, revisiting that my podcast, Quick Before You Forget, is a podcast aimed at helping you build your unreal life from the ground up using tools like music, mindset, and movement to remember who you are while you build who you're meant to be. is in perfect synchronicity with everything that alice is uncovering and discovering about herself throughout this whole first book and this is just the beginning like that's the coolest thing for me when i got to the end it was like of course of course the end is the beginning that's how it would go um yeah and what are you most excited for like what are you most like okay we've got two like at least for now two more plotted books like what's without again spoilers what are we most

43:53 excited for in this next book? Oh gosh. I, I'm excited for the fact that, so I don't, it just sort of comes. So like, it'll be like, I was mowing my lawn and I was like, oh, this is, this is what happens to Wendy here. And I like, I was like, okay, I gotta, I gotta go take notes on that and then develop it later. But it's like, they just kind of come in units and I'm like, oh yeah, of course that's what happens. That's the villain. That's the, So, like, I missed being in that headspace where I'm sort of receiving chunks of the story because I know sort of the end point and I know a couple things in the middle. But, like, the fun part is this, the discovery. And it doesn't feel like it's something I'm creating. It feels like something that I'm just sort of like, oh, this is, oh, wow, we go here now. Like, that's what it feels like.

44:47 Much like the others. Not as eloquent enough. Yeah. But like the, like the, like the greats that we were talking about, what were you going to say, Ellen? I was just going to say, I can't wait to see what Terrence comes up with next. And, and I love working on his books because they're always so vivid and I love doing the wordsmithing and, you know, cleaning up sentences or doing whatever it is that I do or questioning a character's motivation here or there. Like, I just really love being in the deep end with him and his stories. So I look forward to the whole thing. And I can't wait to see what Peter Pan does next.

45:31 Very complicated character. Yes, at least from the epilogue in the first book. you said vivid and you said character, you said something about character development and use the word vivid. And who came to mind for me because we're here is, uh, Languidere and her, she is, she is the kind of character that you have to read to believe. And what do you think? Cause I was thinking about that. Like what got her there? Like without like, I'm, I'm honestly leading into like, let's get people curious about Languidere. Well, I love that you brought her up because she is quickly becoming one of the most talked about characters from the book. When people finish it, they're like, oh my God. It's crazy because she kind of came to me fully baked. Ellen, wouldn't you say that her characteristics and her behavior, that was.

46:34 It's pretty true to how she started. I just knew her and I knew her voice. And she was vile in the most yummy way. And also, I might be desensitized as well because I have to say, I've been a little surprised at how dark people have been finding the book because I find it very hopeful, but then I forget about... how low Languidere can pull you. And it's like, oh yeah, but I need, you need that darkness. Like, like Ellen's quote, like I, I needed it to feel this role.

47:15 Yeah. And I think the kind of the way that she, her scenes balance with Alice's in terms of Alice's scenes are often very funny and there's a lot of joking around and laughter or Alice being funny inside her own head. If she tries to puzzle things out and then you have, languidaire who's just basically this cold but amusing in a way in her own way villain but her her um yeah they're they're diametrically opposed and so that gives the the book a little more dimension too i think um and the beauty of of languidaire that's described in such vivid detail and then you find out she's just that this as you said vile person um And Languidere always brings up to Alice, I think she always says, Alice, oh, she's just so plain. Why does anyone care about her?

48:11 I'm much more beautiful. So she's all those characteristics of someone who wants to rule the world through evil ways. So got to have those villains in the book. And I was always, from the original books, Languidere, who is nothing, like, nothing like this. But, like, just the concept of what that character could do in terms of, you know, spoiler alert. But in Baum's books, you know, she has cabinetry full of women's heads that she changes. But she wears them like, it's just an outfit. And I was like, that's insane. That is so insane. And then I, then in, she's in Return to Oz, which I think is one of the most phenomenal, terrifying children's movies.

49:03 They combine Langwithier with Mambi, the one character. And I was obsessed with Mambi in Return to Oz. And I was like, I want that villain's origin story so badly. I want to write that origin story so badly. And I, I feel like there is no better origin story than this version of Languidere. I have a master's degree in clinical psychology and Languidere is taking me down a journey. There's a lot. There's a lot there. There's a lot to unpack. And I have to ask because six-year-old me would be mad if I didn't. Does the never-ending story tie into this?

49:50 Oh, in my brain, yes. But because it's not public domain, I cannot. But I would say that I believe that all all portal fantasies are of the same realm. And so in my mind, above this sort of mainland of Oz into the north is Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. So like there's, I believe they're all from the same. I could connect every single one of them. And if the never ending story never ends, then it is all stories. Then indeed you could. Literally. Literally. But we're not, but we could. And that's what matters. Um, we believe in impossible things. She can do impossible things.

50:32 That was actually one of the things that was in like, there was a line in the book about impossible things. And I was like, that is a, that's a mantra of mine from my workout where it's like, impossible is just a big word thrown around by small people. So, um, we do believe, we do believe in any of the things around here. And, what else do you, I think, I think what I've, what I've garnered from our conversation today, and I'm like super, super grateful. And I, I really like, I I'd love to start a book club where we like actually do this on purpose with, and we like bring in other people. To have stuff. So that's, that's on my mind. Um, but in lieu of that for right now, like what, now that we've had a little bit of time and we know where things are at and the reviews are coming in and, Things are going, I'd say things are going well and better than we expected. What do you, what are, is there anything that people are still missing? Is there anything about the evolution, the thread that I'm seeing with our conversation is the evolution of, of who we are, right?

51:33 Like the evolution and the journey and respecting that it is a journey and it's not something that happens overnight. It's something that happens over and spoiler alert through time. So talk to me about that. What are you hoping that people gain that they can apply to their lives about the evolution of self and their own hero's journey? I think so much of it is about, and this isn't supposed to be negative, but your ability to stand on your own and even without support, the trust that you have for your own inner voice and your own capabilities is as much as we need other people, it has to start there. And if you, if you stand in that, you will be able to weather the storm, I guess is what I would say.

52:29 And become the storm. And become the storm. Yeah, I think for me, um, and I don't want to give away too much about the ending, but, um, I think when people get to the ending, there's a huge payoff at the end, which I think will apply to anyone who has ever felt persecuted in the ways that Alice is persecuted in the beginning, to anyone who's ever been told that they're smaller than they are, to anyone who's been told that they're not worth as much as they actually are, to anyone who's been told that they're powerless when, and they've believed that, um as most of us do along the way i think that there is so much in this book that people will identify with and feel um feel some affinity for in the way that alice uncovers the truth of who she is the essence of who she is and that i think is is something i hope everyone will get to experience.

53:32 She says, friends, as this beautiful sunlight. Has ascended on her face. I was seeing the same thing. I was like, this is majestic. Literally, it's magical in real time. The magic just keeps magic-ing. It does. I thought I had pooped so the sun wouldn't hit me this way, but it's just that hour. It was very cinematic. It was. It was cinematic. It was planned that way, which is funny. It's like a Terrence Malick film. I was like, yeah, it's light. Because she told me that she moved her spot so that the light wouldn't do funny things. And then as she was saying this beautiful thing, the light came from the outside and the inside.

54:13 Angelic. Ellen the angel. end scene literally i should have just ended it there been like we're done i'm having too much fun i like i can seriously i could talk to you guys for hours. Because oh i know we can do this all day i just. It's so good it's so good and i'm grateful and all the things um so you know i guess what's next like i know we're working on book we're working on the next book we're working. On oh what's next i'm I guess I can announce this. So, um, the, the audio book rights for Alice and two, um, other books have been acquired. So what's coming will be Alice Vaz, the audio book.

54:59 Yay. That's as much as I know. I'm waiting for details, but I was going. To say like, I'm thinking like, okay, but are you, are you going to, do you know if you're reading it or do you know? No, no. Okay. No, not yet. Uh, I, no, I do not. I know. Okay. Well, here's the thing. I know it needs to be a female. It needs to be a woman's void. It's, I know it's a lot of work. Um, and it's, it's, it's labor intensive. I've, I've had enough friends do the audio book thing to know that it's, it's, and it doesn't, it's an art. And I was wondering, but I was wondering when I saw that announcement, I was like, it probably took time because of also, it could be a woman, but it could be like lots of people. Like it could be more multiple.

55:42 It could, Who knows? Who knows? And it's exciting. And we're grateful because that's a huge announcement. I didn't mean to wreck it with all my questions, but I'm really excited. I think it's going to be so good. And people will, you know, I had longed for it because I wanted to read the book and finish the book before our conversation. And I knew that it was, it's going to be epic. And it's going to set the stage well for, you know, the movies that I really want. But we can get, we can talk about it. It has to be. It's like, it's too good. It's too good. Rose labyrinth in the storm. Like this has to be a film. It really does. So is that the goal? Like, do we want it? We want to see. Yeah. Okay. That's what I thought.

56:23 And you want to see that movie, right? I do. I like, I want, can I come to the red carpet? Like I, like I will, I will be there in the perfect outfit wearing. I don't know. It's going to be, it's going to be fantastic. Yeah. So this is, this is what we mean, friends. We speak our truth into reality. That's how we dream things into, into real life. Cause we talked at the very, very beginning of the first time the three of us sat down and we had no other pre, well, I knew them, but they didn't know me. We had no prior, you know, relationship I'll say. And now, you know, here we are talking our truth into, into reality. And that's, that's the, that is the whole point of all of these things is that we get to choose. We get to show up, we get to be authentically ourselves and And when we do that, this crazy thing happens. Our people find us and our peers find us because we're standing so strongly and so confidently in who we are as people, which is what I hope personally, as the person that read the book and the person that was passionately excited to have both of you back again for a second time, I want the world to know that that is what I gained from this book is that you actually do have the almost, it's not even, it's not even really a choice. It's more of a, like, it is your job to show up as you and be you so that your people can find you and that you guys can find your way through the world. And, and if you can't, you know, you got, that's, it starts with you.

57:51 And that's, that's just the truth. So. Thank you, friends, for being friends along by Yellow Brick Road as I'm doing that in real time myself, as Terrence is doing that in real time himself. And he's way more put together than he comes off as. If you've seen any of his videos, you know this because he's got that big brain that does all the things. And Ellen makes it pretty. Like she's like, no, you need a comma here and a period here. And that's what we need in life is our complimentary people. So you guys have anything else that you want to share before we go? Well, just to say thank you again for having us and to notice all the synchronicities and all the things we have in common and the way that we look at things and the way we think about our life stories that we're creating, even as we're creating other stories at the same time.

58:43 So thank you for having us. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. And we'll see you next time on Quick Before You Forget. that was so much fun. Thank you for investing your time, energy and thought into spending some time with me today. I really appreciate you. And I really appreciate when you talk back. So please, if you're here still, thank you so much. Please tell me what you thought tell me what other questions you have tell me how this episode affected you and how it resonated with you and all of the things tell me all the things in the comments and please know that I'm reading every single comment responding to every single comment and I appreciate you thank you for being here with me today please Also, like, share, subscribe. If this episode was fun for you, it'll be fun for a friend. So send it to a friend that might enjoy a little laughter, a little joy, and a little more time investing in themselves.

59:44 And today, I am proudly sponsored, not sponsored, by Zeke's Village Market in Door County, Wisconsin, which provided this fantastic shirt. which Ephraim is a really cute town in Door County. If you haven't been there. It's beautiful. It's very much Cape Cod. It's the Cape Cod of the Midwest. So I just have to show you the design because the design is what makes it a souvenir with soul. So we're going to stand up. Every single design from Zeke's has heart and soul put into it.

1:00:26 And it's designed and they partner with Guilty Apparel. And the two together are a dynamic duo of awesomeness. So I am so grateful for their belief in me and their beautiful designs and their souvenirs with soul. And I will see you next time on Quick Before You Forget.