June 15, 2026

The Science of Belonging: Why Human Connection Matters Now More Than Ever

The Science of Belonging: Why Human Connection Matters Now More Than Ever

This one feels personal. Because when I look back at the moments that changed my life, they all have one thing in common: people. A conversation. A person. A connection. That's why I started Quick Before You Forget. And that's why this...

This one feels personal.

Because when I look back at the moments that changed my life, they all have one thing in common: people.

A conversation. A person. A connection.

That's why I started Quick Before You Forget.

And that's why this conversation with Dr. Marcus Collins means so much to me.

We talked about culture, belonging, empathy, curiosity, leadership, and what it means to find your people in a world that often feels more divided than connected. But the line that stayed with me was simple and haunting:

"The challenge isn't that you don't belong. You just haven't found your people yet."

If you've ever questioned where you fit, who you are, or whether your people exist, this episode is for you. Because sometimes the reminder we need most is that we're not nearly as alone as we think we are. And what hope and comfort there is in that simple truth.

Connect with Marcus:
Website: https://marctothec.com/home
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drmarcuscollins/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marctothec

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The more I understood us, the better my work became.

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I mean, I'm talking like hockey stick difference. Like it

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went from like I'm kind of good to like really

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really good and like wow. And it's only because of

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my proximity to humanity, to people. And what I realized

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social being people is that we are social animals by nature.

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Everything we do is given to be connected, to be together.

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We crash into each other, right and our ability to

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evolve as a species is because of our ability to

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socialize and collaborate. And I just realized that this is

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the most important aspect of everything that I do.

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Marcus Collins, welcome to quick before you forget.

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Thanks for having me. How fun is this?

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It's so fun. I'm so excited and I'm so grateful

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you're here. So friends, you are in for a fun

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ride with Marcus. He is a cultural strategist, best selling author,

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and professor at the University of Michigan Ross School of Business,

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whose work explores how culture shapes human behavior. Earlier in

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his career, he worked in the music and technology industries,

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writing and producing music, leading digital strategy for Beyonce, and

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helping drive partnership marketing at Apple's iTunes. These experiences gave

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him a front row seat to the way that stories, identity,

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and community move people, a theme he explores in his

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award winning book Book for the Culture Today. We're here

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to learn from his story, Marcus, what that looks like

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is walking a bit through your past, present, and future together.

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Are you ready for that?

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I think, so, let's give it a shot. Let's go.

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So, Marcus, A lot of your work focuses around culture

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and belonging, and I'm curious, when you look back on

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your life, what were the early moments where communities and

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people shaped your understanding and development of how you feel

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about culture and belonging.

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My existence had always been very communal. When I think

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about the biggest parts of my life, it wasn't the

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act of what I was doing as much as it

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was a people with whom I was doing it. I

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think about being a Collins. You know, I'm Marcus Collins.

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But my father and his twin brother, WELC. Hurley, married

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my mother and her sister, and we grew up next

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door to each other. So I always felt like I

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was a part of a tribe, you know, in sort

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of the anthropological framing of tribes and these collections of

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people that there were expectations of people like us as

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Collins is, and so I just kind of started there,

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like this primary identity as a Collins was not like

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you know, us want house. It was like houses, you know.

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And I was very active in my church still to

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this day, but that was very much a part of

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who we are. You know. My father, Mancol Hurley, my

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father's brother, Malcol Hurley, was our pastor. My father was

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a deacon in the church. My mother was a choir director.

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Like it was like it was a thing. It's just

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what we did, you know. My grandfather was a bish

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for the church. So like we went to church, but

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it wasn't just go to church. It was the community

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of our church. That's very much a part of who

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I am. I swam on a swim team from six

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years old through through high school, and the majority of

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that time was on the same swim team, and those

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were my people, you know. So it's like these experiences

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like you know, playing in band at school. You know,

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these were my friends, but they were also my bandmates.

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They were my people. And I think that my entire

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existence have been framed through a communal lens. So I've

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always thought about community, even though I had the Lan

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language to call it community. I just always thought about

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my people and what were the expectations of people like me.

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And these were the groups by which I self identified.

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Swim team is speaks to my soul.

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What was your stroke?

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I was a backstroker, that was my go to, but

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I swim back that was my like my bread and butter.

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But I swim that I am as well. I begrudgingly

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swam the hundred fly, and begrudgingly then I swam in

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the freestyle relay, fifty freestyle relay, and the individual the

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medley relay as well.

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I was a flyer and I was voluntold that I

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was going to do the two hundred fly and that

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was rough.

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Man.

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I'll tell you that one hundred fly was. I liked

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that one, but the two hundred was.

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Was no fun.

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And I need to know what your instrument was and banned.

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So I started playing clarinet, okay, and I thought, you know,

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I was like this is it didn't feel masculine enough

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for me. Like I was like, I know, clarinet for me,

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Like I was the only guy in the clarinet section

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full of girls. And I was like, I think I'm

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in the wrong place. And I remember my mother loving

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the saxophone. She really liked saxophones. I was like, all

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I saw, I played xaxophone, but I feel like it

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was too many fingers, too many fingerings, like a lot

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so much. And my cousin Terrence took me to go

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see No Better Blues at an age I was much

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too young to go see it, but we're gonna see

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my bet a Blue. And I saw Blake Gilliam, who

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was Denzel Washington's character, play the trumpet. I was like that,

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that is what I must play. So I played the trumpet,

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and I wanted to be bleek Gilliam badly.

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I love that.

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My older son is twelve and he played the trumpet

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and it plays the trumpet. He just played in the

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solo ensemble and got a superior rating.

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Oh fairly cool.

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I'm such a proud mama. And you know, it doesn't

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even sound as bad anymore as you used to.

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My eldest who's eleven, she's starting to play the trumpet.

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And when she first started, oh wolf, it was tough.

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But you know, I hear her playing now. I always

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tell her that, like your tone is so much warmer

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and like that's what you want, Like you can learn

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the fingering, you know, you can learn breath control like

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tone to have a really nice tone like that is

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to me, I think the early footings of playing an

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instrument like piano, it is what it is, like, you know,

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it's just what it is. But playing like a woodwind,

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a brad even voice, where you are responsible for the

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production of sound, not just the kinetic but the actual

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breath that goes into making the sound, just getting a

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nice tone as the start.

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Well, and music is such a powerful connector as somebody

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that's studied music as well as culture and belonging. What

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what do you think music does for somebody's sense of

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community or sense of belonging.

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Well, music is a cultural product, So it's an expression

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of people like us. So we hear certain aesthetics in

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the music. It signals for whom it's for. You know

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that there's a there's a certain beat progression or rhythmatic

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sequence in like hip hop. Do you go like, all right,

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I know what the groove is going to be. I

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mean even in gospel music. So I played piano in church,

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there's a certain turnaround where you know it is about

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to happen, like you just know it right. And I

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think those kind of signalings make you feel at home.

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And just like any other cultural production, music has this

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ability to make you feel at home even when you're

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hearing music produced by a different culture that's similar to

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your own. Did you ever watch did you watch the

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movie Centers? By chance? No?

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But tell me more.

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There is a scene in Centers that is like thus

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scene that everyone refers to as and without giving away

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too much of the movie there it's this musical number.

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The number is musical sequence where they show the progression

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of like blues music and how it connects to hip

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hop and how it connects to gospel and all these

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other things that you find that these rhythms are so

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interlaced even though they come from different cultural producers, and

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music as the universal language, just has a way to

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do this in ways that other universal languages don't. They

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talking about math as a means of universal language. It is,

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but it don't feel evocative, like you know, you don't

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solve an equation to go, oh that really touched my soul? No, no, no,

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like it's to hear a vocalist we listen to opera

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and if you don't speak the language, you don't know Italian,

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it still moves you. I think this is how this

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is how culture ripples through our social connections, that they

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make us feel things first, and as we feel things,

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we think things. And who we say that feeling is thinking.

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Their cognition, ethics all existed in the brain. But as

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we start to feel things, we associate evaluations to them

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and then we decide it fits for people like us,

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and that process of matchmaking it is critical to how

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we think about who we are in this world and

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ultimately how we navigate through it.

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Amen, I need to know do you have music like

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that that comes to mind for you that really makes

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you feel grounded? Like do you have a song that

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you turn to in a moment like I call it

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like a song of survival, where you turn to it

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and it kind of brings you back to home, brought

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back to center.

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I don't know if there's a song that does that

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in particular, but there is a song, you know they

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talk about the if you're standing on an island, what

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song would it be? There is a song it's called

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Getaway Jordan by Take six. I think the recording came

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out in nineteen eighty eight. I have listened to this

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song at least a million times, and that am I

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sing hyperbolic, But I'm not even kidding. It's on it's

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every year, It's on my Spotify rap like it. It

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is the thing, and what I love about it is

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it's the intersection of all the many things that I

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like and have found myself connected to. Like though I

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grew up on hip hop, like I'm a I'm a

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hip hop fan, like I'm an R and B guy

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at heart, Like I'm an R and B guy at heart.

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So here's this gospel record, Uh Getaway Jordan that has

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been arranged with a do wop uh jazz sensibilities with

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an R and B texture on on on top of it,

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which really is kind of like I'm a I'm a

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church kid, you know, I'm a choir boy quite literally.

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But also I love R and B and I grew

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up playing jazz as a trumpet player. Like this is

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like the convergence of the world. And these guys just

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happen to be the epitome of vocal music, like they

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are the absolute best. They're your favorite singer's favorite singer

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take six. They're the best, but this it the song.

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It's grounding in a sense that it reminds me of

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when I first discovered them, as you know, as one

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of I was eleven years old, ten years old at

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the time I discovered them, and I remember like the curiosity,

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just being like, oh my gosh, I have never heard

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anything like this before in my life, and I just

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listen to it over and over and over and over

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and over again. Now you fast forward thirty some odd

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years later, I still listen to it like that and

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hear new things like that. That's that kind of thing

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reminds me of who I was, but also signals who

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I could be. The more I lean into too things

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and find what to find. The novel in the Familiar, I.

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Love that so much and it reminds me a little bit.

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I hear the passion in your voice talking about music,

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and it takes me to you know, your your LinkedIn

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profile has a lot of really cool things that could

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distract people from this one thing at that kind of

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like the bottom. It's a little buried, but it talks

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about your love of music, and I want to know

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how you went from you know, the choir boy and

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the trumpet player to working with Beyonce and what that.

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You know what that whole experience taught you? And take

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your time with the story, but you know what, what

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did that experience teach you about community and music that

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you that you haven't already said.

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That's a really good framing. I so if you asked

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me when I was a kid what I wanted to be,

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I wanted to be Michael Jackson. Like that, that's what

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I wanted to be. I want to be Michael. You know,

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I practiced in the mirror.

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The whole nine practiced in the mirror.

233
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Oh yeah, oh yeah, I practiced. I'd practiced my my

234
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shuffle proper.

235
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You practiced like what what?

236
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What?

237
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Like what songs were?

238
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It was really the video Don't Stop Till You Get Enough.

239
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It's like I was just trying to get that, like

240
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get that whole thing. And that was the case, Like

241
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I wanted to be Michael. Loved Michael, still love Michael,

242
00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:55.279
loved Michael. But then the spring of nineteen ninety one,

243
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I saw a video of four guys from Philadelphia named Nate, Mike,

244
00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:04.840
Sean jan Yer boised him in and I was like

245
00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:12.200
them that my my obsession is what they really turned into.

246
00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:16.360
Like these guys they were they were everything to me,

247
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I'll be honest, and and like they could sing, they

248
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saying in the way I liked to sing or wanted

249
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to sing. I should say again that that R and

250
00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:27.960
B sensibility. They were like nice guys, like they're you know,

251
00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:30.480
like they were a clean cut they wore pep peppy clothes,

252
00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:33.000
and you know they were there were nice guys. There

253
00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:36.440
were nice guys, you know, and I felt like that's

254
00:14:36.679 --> 00:14:38.600
that's how I was, you know, like grew up in

255
00:14:38.679 --> 00:14:41.360
Detroit and I was a guy. I was a church boy.

256
00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:43.320
I was a good kid. You know. I wasn't get

257
00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:46.159
into a lot of trouble. I was mischievous, but not

258
00:14:45.879 --> 00:14:49.120
not a troublemaker. And I was like, these are the

259
00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:50.879
like I was like, that's who I looked up to.

260
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In fact, I would wear like like a uniform every

261
00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:58.200
day when I was in the seventh grade, like or

262
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a bois Men uniform. It was like white shirt, tie jeans,

263
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just like these guys, Like I've really them and my

264
00:15:05.639 --> 00:15:07.759
my fixations, like I wanted to be the fifth member

265
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of Voice to Men. That was it. I was like that.

266
00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:12.480
So if I got voice him and stuff in my

267
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office right now, Like that's how much since these guys.

268
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It's like I want to be the fifth member of

269
00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:17.960
Voice to Men. And that was sort of the ambition.

270
00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:20.480
I had a singing group and we fashioned ourselves off

271
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for Boys to Man. We listen to all their music

272
00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:26.279
all weigh in. But by the time I was about

273
00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:31.120
to graduate from high school, you know, my parents says, listen.

274
00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:34.240
You know that was fun, but now this is serious time.

275
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You know, what are you going to study? What are

276
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you going to do? And I had done well in

277
00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:40.200
math and science. So those days, the nineties, if you

278
00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:42.799
did well math and science, you're a black kid from Detroit,

279
00:15:42.919 --> 00:15:44.960
You're going to be an engineer. So I went to

280
00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:47.279
study engineering, but in my heart of hearts, I wanted

281
00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:50.519
to be in Voice to Men. My parents like, come on,

282
00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:52.320
don't be stupid, get you hit out your ass, like

283
00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:54.039
come on, you to do this thing, you know. So

284
00:15:55.159 --> 00:15:58.120
I go to Michigan to study engineering, and I realized that, like,

285
00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:01.120
I'm not that into it. I thought it was interesting,

286
00:16:01.159 --> 00:16:05.600
I just wasn't terribly interested. And I came home and said,

287
00:16:05.639 --> 00:16:07.200
Mom and dad, I don't think engineering is for me.

288
00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:10.879
My mother's an entrepreneur. My father's an entrepreneur. My dad

289
00:16:10.919 --> 00:16:15.320
was an academic. Sorry flip that my dad was an entrepreneur.

290
00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:18.320
My mother was an academic. And my mother goes, just

291
00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:19.840
wait till you get into your major. You're going to

292
00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:22.759
love it. I go, all right, I trust you, you know, mom,

293
00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:25.039
I trust you, Mom, you know. I did not love

294
00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:29.440
it at all. I realized very very quickly this was

295
00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:32.799
not for me. My GPA was tangible proof that I

296
00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:34.759
wasn't doing so well in it. So I took some

297
00:16:34.879 --> 00:16:38.639
music theory courses and I fell in love with major sevenths.

298
00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:43.039
I was like, this sound sounds so familiar and warm

299
00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:46.240
and bright. It was like all the things. And I

300
00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:47.759
came home and said Mom and Dad, I think I

301
00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:50.039
want to be a songwriter. To go, oh, no, you don't.

302
00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:55.080
That is not the case. So I finished my engineering degree,

303
00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:57.159
but I spent all my time where I should have

304
00:16:57.200 --> 00:17:01.159
been in the classroom, taking music theory course and recording

305
00:17:01.279 --> 00:17:04.720
music in the studio that was at the in School

306
00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:07.440
of Music when I was campus in Michigan. So I

307
00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:10.119
was just like learning how to write and produce and record.

308
00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:13.680
Graduated right to nine to eleven, so the job market

309
00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:17.359
was terrible, and I thought that was God's divine sign

310
00:17:17.559 --> 00:17:19.759
telling me to go into music. So that's so I did.

311
00:17:20.599 --> 00:17:23.000
I went into the music industry. I ran a recording

312
00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:25.559
studio for one of my professors in the School of music,

313
00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:29.319
and I was like recording music with my friends. I'd say,

314
00:17:29.319 --> 00:17:33.480
my friends come from Detraite to record, we make records,

315
00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:35.200
and then I go to New York and shop music

316
00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:38.319
with a business partner of mine and that was going okay,

317
00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:42.400
and we had like some minor successes, but it was like,

318
00:17:43.079 --> 00:17:46.519
it felt very promising until I realized the music industry

319
00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:49.359
was not going to sustain me as a creator. So

320
00:17:49.400 --> 00:17:50.920
I was like, man, I'm not gonna be the fifth

321
00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:53.119
member of Boys to Men. Apparently I'm not going to

322
00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:56.160
be a babyface either, who I wanted to be. I

323
00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:58.039
was like, well, maybe, I guess like I can go

324
00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:00.319
into the business side of music, and like, I helped

325
00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:04.039
those artists get their music heard, and I figured marketing

326
00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:07.559
was the most creative form of business, so I'll do that.

327
00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:11.440
So I went Scoogy my MBA, studying strategic brand management,

328
00:18:12.279 --> 00:18:14.160
and I got a gig working at Apple, which was

329
00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:17.920
awesome to partner marketing at iTunes managing our relationship with

330
00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:20.920
Nike Sports Music, and it was it was phenomenal. You know.

331
00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:26.279
Apple was like a dream job for me. And around

332
00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:29.759
that time, I met a guy named Matthew Knowles who

333
00:18:29.799 --> 00:18:33.240
has a daughter named Beyonce Knowles. And he goes, wait

334
00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:36.200
a second, let me get this straight. You were an

335
00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:39.119
engineer who started a music company. You have an NBA,

336
00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:44.559
you work at Apple, and you're black. Dude, You're a unicorn.

337
00:18:44.599 --> 00:18:46.319
You don't exist, You're not real. Like no, no, no,

338
00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:48.920
I'm real. She says, well, you should come run digital

339
00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:51.759
strategy for Beyonce, and I said, I should totally do that.

340
00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:55.200
And that's how I found myself running digital strategy for

341
00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:59.359
for Beyonce. It was, you know, it's it's you always

342
00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:02.200
say that, you know, we think about our trajectory as linear.

343
00:19:02.359 --> 00:19:05.920
It definitely was not linear, but it was. It was

344
00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:12.680
the fortunate alchemy of many failures. You know. I realized

345
00:19:12.920 --> 00:19:16.519
to say, what I realized about community in music is

346
00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:19.400
that I realized that, you know, I'm not as good

347
00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:22.559
as Nate Mike sean One. So even if I wanted to,

348
00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:24.519
I don't think it would have been made in the group,

349
00:19:24.559 --> 00:19:27.400
and even the group that I had started in high school.

350
00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:30.160
You know, we didn't. It didn't didn't happen for us,

351
00:19:30.279 --> 00:19:35.680
you know, and that forced me into force me shifted

352
00:19:35.720 --> 00:19:38.279
my trajectory directly into engineering, which my parents want me

353
00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:42.039
to do. But even there, music was calling. You know.

354
00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:46.000
I found myself in music, and I was like, all right,

355
00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:49.359
if I can't, don't. I don't have the instrument to

356
00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:52.400
sing like these guys, but I could certainly write, like

357
00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:55.480
I just felt very excited about that. But even doing that,

358
00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:59.359
putting you know, music in the world, shopping music, you know,

359
00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:01.440
that didn't work for me either, And maybe I didn't

360
00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:05.319
do it long enough, who knows. But I found myself

361
00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:09.559
in music yet again, this time as a marketer. And

362
00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:12.000
what I realized that, you know, these are my people.

363
00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:14.960
I'm a musician, you know, this is this these are

364
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:19.039
my people. This is where where I belong. The difference, however,

365
00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:24.880
is how you engage in it. You know, Like everyone was,

366
00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:30.119
the body is made of different parts. In every part

367
00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:34.480
plays a role, Like is the eye more important than

368
00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:38.559
the foot? Well, someone without a foot would be like,

369
00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:41.359
I don't know, fam you know, like, you know, every

370
00:20:41.400 --> 00:20:44.680
everything has has a role. It's it's it's fitting, and

371
00:20:44.839 --> 00:20:48.319
I realized that I had to find where I I best,

372
00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:50.920
I was best suited. And I've spent so much of

373
00:20:50.920 --> 00:20:52.799
my life working in music even to this day, like

374
00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:57.240
I work with clients who who who exist in the

375
00:20:57.240 --> 00:21:00.480
world with music. So I'm still in it, not in

376
00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:02.519
the way that I thought I was going to. And

377
00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:07.599
here I am still involved in music as a practitioner

378
00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:10.160
at church, which is what you know, at least my

379
00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:12.279
pastors say, is where I was supposed to be.

380
00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:17.519
Anyway, I hear that, and you had your parents say

381
00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:19.640
the words no, you don't.

382
00:21:21.079 --> 00:21:22.119
How did you work through that?

383
00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:25.319
Like when you had this calling and you're still doing

384
00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:26.200
it now, Like you're.

385
00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:28.160
Still like you said, you walk through You.

386
00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:31.240
Had this opportunity with Beyonce, you worked at iTunes, like

387
00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:33.720
you the music has been a through line for you

388
00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:38.599
and you're you know, number one and number two. Fans said, nope,

389
00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:40.720
you're doing engineering.

390
00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:42.559
So like, how did you figure that out for yourself?

391
00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:51.960
I think the words no always demand oh yeah, hold

392
00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:54.519
my beer response, Like I feel like that's just kind

393
00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:56.960
of always in my things that I do know. I

394
00:21:57.119 --> 00:22:02.880
call it delusion. It probably is some delusion, but my

395
00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:06.400
my secret power if any other than being able to

396
00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:10.359
fall asleep anywhere. Like my secret power is that, like

397
00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:13.599
I have like tunnel vision. Once I get focused on

398
00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:17.000
a thing and I go, that's what I'm doing. Focused

399
00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:20.400
on it. And though you know, there may be indicators

400
00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:22.079
and say you should not do this, you should stop,

401
00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:24.680
it's not working, et cetera, et cetera, or you know

402
00:22:24.839 --> 00:22:27.839
someone says like you have no business doing this, like

403
00:22:28.200 --> 00:22:29.559
you're not going to do it, It's not going to

404
00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:32.519
happen for you. Like I just sort of I turned

405
00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:36.759
completely like silence all of those things and just go

406
00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:41.680
head first, commit it to it. And then there may

407
00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:43.599
be a point where I go, oh, it needs to shift.

408
00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:45.799
I e. I'm not gonna be a singer, maybe a songwriter.

409
00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:47.839
Not gonna be a songwriter. I'm going to help songwriters

410
00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:51.880
get their music heard. Like though it may shift wherever

411
00:22:51.920 --> 00:22:56.440
I'm focused on, I am like ten toes down focused

412
00:22:56.440 --> 00:22:59.319
on it. So even when my parents say, nah, you're

413
00:22:59.319 --> 00:23:01.640
not doing it, I go, mmmm, yes I am. Actually

414
00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:06.160
it drives my wife crazy, It drives her absolutely insane.

415
00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:08.000
Like if I tell her things, I'm like, oh, I'm

416
00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:10.160
not asking for permission, I'm just letting you know that

417
00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:12.640
this is what's going to happen. And you know, my

418
00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:15.440
dad was the exact same way as I've come to learn.

419
00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:21.599
But honestly, it's it's I see it as a gift

420
00:23:22.279 --> 00:23:28.480
because if you rely on all the early indicators, then

421
00:23:28.839 --> 00:23:31.640
they'll all tell you to stop in most cases. And

422
00:23:31.720 --> 00:23:33.799
you know, I know my parents were just trying to

423
00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:36.319
protect me, and to some agree, I'm glad they did that,

424
00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:41.319
like you know, but for me, they're no, was just

425
00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:43.160
that I was got to try it a different way.

426
00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:49.720
I'm hearing you say that you get laser focused and like,

427
00:23:50.559 --> 00:23:52.720
hold my beer, I got this. Don't you tell me

428
00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:54.720
what I can't do. I'll figure it out. For the

429
00:23:54.759 --> 00:23:57.880
person that doesn't get doesn't know how to get focused,

430
00:23:58.440 --> 00:24:01.359
what would your advice be to like get to work

431
00:24:01.400 --> 00:24:04.079
through something like that? And because that's actually a really

432
00:24:04.200 --> 00:24:07.480
that's really good advice to just you know, put that

433
00:24:07.640 --> 00:24:10.079
negativity aside and say, no, I'm just going to focus.

434
00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:12.759
But what's the first step, Like how does somebody take

435
00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:14.359
that first step toward doing that?

436
00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:17.920
I think you got to get curious first, a get

437
00:24:17.960 --> 00:24:21.160
identified a thing that's like I am fascinated by this,

438
00:24:22.519 --> 00:24:25.920
Like I just wonder how this works, or I wonder

439
00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:29.759
where the underlying mechanisms that make this thing go. Like

440
00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:33.559
that kind of thing becomes the hook, you know, they

441
00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:38.039
they You know, people say don't follow your passions, and

442
00:24:38.559 --> 00:24:41.000
I think that's because they don't know what passion is.

443
00:24:41.799 --> 00:24:44.599
You know, we use the word passion as a shortcut

444
00:24:44.680 --> 00:24:47.680
for interests we love. Like you know, someone says, don't

445
00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:50.160
follow your passion in Marcus because you're interested in music.

446
00:24:50.200 --> 00:24:54.400
Don't follow that. I think that's that's actually the literature

447
00:24:54.400 --> 00:25:00.000
will say otherwise, that passion comes from the theological literature,

448
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:03.200
and passion means to suffer, like the passion of the

449
00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:05.839
Christ to suffer. Right, So the question becomes what are

450
00:25:05.839 --> 00:25:09.839
you willing to suffer for? You know, you suffer for

451
00:25:10.119 --> 00:25:13.200
the things that you are very much invested in. So

452
00:25:13.240 --> 00:25:14.640
I think that's the first thing to start, is like

453
00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:17.119
what am I curious about? I'm willing to suffer for?

454
00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:22.839
My cousin Terrence once asked me when I was pursuing

455
00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:26.880
the songwriting part of my career, and he asked me,

456
00:25:26.920 --> 00:25:30.599
he said, are you willing to be a starving artist

457
00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:32.519
for the rest of your life? Not like you're going

458
00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:34.880
to be He wasn't sort of damning me, but he

459
00:25:34.960 --> 00:25:38.599
was asking me, essentially without saying it, for what are

460
00:25:38.599 --> 00:25:41.000
you willing to suffer? Are you willing to be a

461
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:44.119
starving artist? And the truth of the matter, very truthfully

462
00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:48.200
said I wasn't. And by that I mean there was

463
00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:50.759
something I wanted more out of life that I knew

464
00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:54.200
that being a starving artist wouldn't afford me. Like I

465
00:25:54.200 --> 00:25:56.480
wanted a family, Like I really wanted a family. I

466
00:25:56.519 --> 00:25:59.680
wanted a wife, and I just didn't think that anybody

467
00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:03.519
wouldn't marry me in the condition I was. That was

468
00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:07.279
a mess. I was a mess, But I didn't think

469
00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:12.759
that that would have been possible in the or least

470
00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:16.920
the manifestation that I wanted it to be was possible

471
00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:22.759
with the tructory I was on. So I was like,

472
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:24.400
that's so, I was like, well, let me do the

473
00:26:24.440 --> 00:26:27.799
business side of music instead. What are you willing to

474
00:26:27.799 --> 00:26:33.759
suffer for? When I started, I started like teaching on

475
00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:37.640
the side while I was practicing on the marketing side

476
00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:40.039
of the world, Like I was willing to suffer for that,

477
00:26:40.759 --> 00:26:43.039
Like I wasn't getting paid anything hardly. In fact, I

478
00:26:43.079 --> 00:26:47.079
was actually losing money doing it, spending money doing it,

479
00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:49.000
but I was willing to suffer for because I was

480
00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:51.680
really curious about it. I think the same thing goes

481
00:26:51.720 --> 00:26:54.359
with your listeners. You get to ask yourself what am

482
00:26:54.400 --> 00:26:56.720
I curious about? Am I like what a thing that

483
00:26:56.799 --> 00:27:00.200
like really fascinates me? And you go, all right, so

484
00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:06.079
what don't I know? And am I willing to suffer

485
00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:08.400
to get to know it? To close the delta between

486
00:27:08.440 --> 00:27:10.319
what I know and what I don't know?

487
00:27:11.720 --> 00:27:12.720
How long have you been married?

488
00:27:13.519 --> 00:27:18.559
We're on what is it twelve? We are on year fourteen.

489
00:27:18.599 --> 00:27:22.279
Beautiful, and you said you were a mess, and yet

490
00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:24.599
you felt you managed to hook a nice lady and

491
00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:26.559
fall in love and stay in love for fourteen years.

492
00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:27.440
That's winning, sir.

493
00:27:27.920 --> 00:27:32.359
Yeah, you know what, we met business school. That's but

494
00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:34.960
you're right, I mean, you're you're right. But that was

495
00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:39.960
a that was a really pivotal point of inflection for me.

496
00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:43.720
The guy was kind of cutting bait on a thing

497
00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:46.759
that my identity was tied to. Like if you asked

498
00:27:46.759 --> 00:27:50.920
someone twenty years ago about me who knew me, say, oh,

499
00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:52.640
Marcus is a music guy. He's a music guy. He's

500
00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:56.480
a music guy, does what he does music guy. But

501
00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:00.519
going to business school even though I was pursuing a

502
00:28:00.599 --> 00:28:04.319
career in music, I was redefining myself as a marketing

503
00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:09.680
guy who worked in music. If you will, that's a

504
00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:11.119
big thing to cut bait on.

505
00:28:13.000 --> 00:28:15.759
Well, you mentioned yourself twenty years ago, and that takes

506
00:28:15.799 --> 00:28:18.079
me to a question that I like to ask my guests,

507
00:28:18.119 --> 00:28:21.200
which is what advice or what words would you have

508
00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:23.480
for twenty two year old you, if you could talk

509
00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:23.759
to you.

510
00:28:23.799 --> 00:28:33.200
Then I would say to that Marcus that they're more

511
00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:37.799
than one way to make it happen. I think, like

512
00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:40.960
I said, I was myopic in my view. Again, it's

513
00:28:41.079 --> 00:28:44.880
everything is a trade off, just positive consequences of native consequence.

514
00:28:44.920 --> 00:28:47.319
Its positive consequence that I was very, very focused the

515
00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:52.599
native consequence that I couldn't see beyond beyond the aperture

516
00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:57.200
of my own ambitions. But they're more than one way

517
00:28:57.240 --> 00:29:00.920
to do a thing. And what I realized years later

518
00:29:01.079 --> 00:29:04.039
is that when I was in school, I felt like

519
00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:07.079
I was being forced to do engineering. So I was like,

520
00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:10.119
I hate it. I absolutely hate it. As opposed looking

521
00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:12.279
at engineering saying or what am I gleaning from this?

522
00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:17.519
Because when I look but fast forward to who I

523
00:29:17.559 --> 00:29:21.440
am now, I think the way I think because of engineering.

524
00:29:22.200 --> 00:29:25.559
I mean I approach every single problem almost the exact

525
00:29:25.599 --> 00:29:29.079
same ways. What are the underlying physics to this thing?

526
00:29:29.160 --> 00:29:33.240
What was actually happening? What's going on? What's lying beneath

527
00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:36.039
the surface that leads to the thing that we're observing?

528
00:29:36.119 --> 00:29:39.640
Like what are the antecedents that lead to a particular outcome?

529
00:29:40.039 --> 00:29:43.079
And honestly, like, that's how I approach music. Maybe it's

530
00:29:43.079 --> 00:29:44.960
why I wasn't such a good songwriter, but that's how

531
00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:47.519
I approached music too, that kind of I listened to thongs,

532
00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:49.279
I go, all right, what are the chre changes? We

533
00:29:49.319 --> 00:29:52.599
are the melody happening here? Because for me there's three

534
00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:58.160
major things chord changes, melody, rhythm. That's it for me, right,

535
00:29:58.480 --> 00:30:03.039
the harmonies and rhythm, and every mind listen to something,

536
00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:06.240
go so, what's going on here? Or are those changes? Okay? Okay,

537
00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:07.880
I got it. I think I got the progress. Okay, great.

538
00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:10.640
The rhythm I sort of I feel like I have

539
00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:14.480
an inclination to sort of naturally lean into and the

540
00:30:14.519 --> 00:30:17.000
melody is the thing that kind of hooks you the most.

541
00:30:17.880 --> 00:30:21.119
By I look at those things in that one will say,

542
00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:24.400
where that's that's obvious, perhaps, but that dest thing that

543
00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:27.799
my mind immediately goes to because to me, those are

544
00:30:27.799 --> 00:30:30.799
the building blocks that become the song, just like an

545
00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:34.200
engineering at least percially on material side, those are the

546
00:30:35.240 --> 00:30:39.799
physical properties or the chemical properties that give things the

547
00:30:39.839 --> 00:30:43.119
physical aesthetic and physical properties that we use, and the

548
00:30:43.160 --> 00:30:46.279
same thing today as a as a scholar, I was

549
00:30:46.359 --> 00:30:50.160
looking at what's going on here, what's happening here underneath,

550
00:30:50.599 --> 00:30:54.720
and leverage the literature and the theory to help explain

551
00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:59.240
the phenomenon that's happening to the naked eye. So I

552
00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:03.039
am a better thinker because I was an engineer, and

553
00:31:03.079 --> 00:31:05.640
that probably would be an even better thinker if I

554
00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:09.119
were a better engineer, and that would have happened if

555
00:31:09.160 --> 00:31:12.759
I wasn't so myopic in my view, and that there

556
00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:14.799
was only one way to do this, that I'm basically

557
00:31:14.799 --> 00:31:18.839
just going to pass through school and you know, just graduate.

558
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:20.519
I don't even want the degree. In fact, I didn't

559
00:31:20.559 --> 00:31:23.440
have my own degree, my degree set and my parents

560
00:31:24.519 --> 00:31:29.160
in their office in their house for fifteen years. I

561
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:31.440
was like it was like it wasn't for me, it

562
00:31:31.480 --> 00:31:33.359
was for y'all. But this degree is not for me.

563
00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:37.200
It's for y'all, you know, And like that a bit

564
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:41.599
of stubbornness. I'll be honest, The stubborn side of me

565
00:31:43.359 --> 00:31:47.519
made me blind to the many permutations of possibilities I

566
00:31:47.519 --> 00:31:51.559
probably would have led to greater outcomes or at the

567
00:31:51.720 --> 00:31:52.880
very least less pain.

568
00:31:54.680 --> 00:31:57.920
You're definitely very self aware about all of it, which

569
00:31:57.960 --> 00:32:01.400
is more than some are, and that's a great thing.

570
00:32:01.480 --> 00:32:03.799
But also you said something that spoke to my soul

571
00:32:03.880 --> 00:32:06.039
when you said that there's more than one way to

572
00:32:06.039 --> 00:32:09.039
make it happen, Because what I heard in that beyond

573
00:32:09.079 --> 00:32:14.359
what you said was people and how different people have

574
00:32:14.480 --> 00:32:18.440
different perspectives and different things to offer on your journey.

575
00:32:18.440 --> 00:32:22.240
And I'm wondering how you have integrated what you've learned

576
00:32:22.279 --> 00:32:26.400
about community and people into your work on culture.

577
00:32:27.319 --> 00:32:30.200
Oh wow, I didn't know anything about people for a

578
00:32:30.279 --> 00:32:35.400
very long time, other than when I knew anecdotally as

579
00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:38.200
an engineer. I think I took one sociology class that

580
00:32:38.279 --> 00:32:44.240
I slept through, honestly, which is ironic because today most

581
00:32:44.279 --> 00:32:47.039
of my academic literature sits in the world of sociology.

582
00:32:47.119 --> 00:32:48.240
I was gonna say that's.

583
00:32:50.119 --> 00:32:52.759
I mean psychology and sociology and social work, and like

584
00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:55.720
all those things kind of are related, And I would

585
00:32:55.720 --> 00:32:57.359
say rctially to marketing.

586
00:32:57.559 --> 00:33:00.799
Yes, exactly. I didn't do myself any favors. I'm always

587
00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:03.519
going to my in my youth, I was always going

588
00:33:03.559 --> 00:33:07.000
to do it the hard way. Unfortunately, again back to

589
00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:08.920
this idea of there's more than one ways to do things.

590
00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:12.839
I didn't know very much about people, and I was

591
00:33:12.880 --> 00:33:17.279
well into my marketing career that that began to change.

592
00:33:17.400 --> 00:33:21.519
I had dinner with my then fiance now wife and

593
00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:26.480
her friend from New York post college, and we're at

594
00:33:26.480 --> 00:33:30.519
dinner and her friend, Sarah, who is a social worker

595
00:33:30.519 --> 00:33:34.079
here at Michigan at U of M. She was talking about,

596
00:33:34.279 --> 00:33:36.200
like in social we do this social did I talk

597
00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:38.039
about her job? You know it's social we do this?

598
00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:40.119
You know, social we do that. And I kept asking myself,

599
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:42.920
why does she keep saying that? Because I say the

600
00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:47.319
exact same things as the social media marketer an agency,

601
00:33:48.119 --> 00:33:50.839
and like she's saying exactly what I'm saying. I go, oh,

602
00:33:51.039 --> 00:33:55.039
because socialist people, that's why. And immediately I had this

603
00:33:55.119 --> 00:33:58.160
like sort of it's like a wave of you for it.

604
00:33:58.279 --> 00:34:02.799
I go, wow, social is people. I mean like it's

605
00:34:02.839 --> 00:34:06.480
like I felt like I feel like an epiphany of sorts.

606
00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:10.760
And immediately that epiphany turned to dread because I realized

607
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:13.079
I knew nothing about people, and I'm like, oh, my goodness,

608
00:34:13.079 --> 00:34:16.199
I'm a fraud. I know. I knew the word Freudian slip,

609
00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:18.360
that's about it. And now and then I knew that

610
00:34:18.400 --> 00:34:22.280
Marx was like a controversial figure, but that's about it.

611
00:34:22.519 --> 00:34:25.239
And I go, oh, man, this isn't good. I'm going

612
00:34:25.320 --> 00:34:28.519
to get fired. And I remember telling my fiance that

613
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:31.239
I was like anxious about it, and I was really concerned,

614
00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:33.960
and she's like, well, why don't you read about, you know,

615
00:34:34.039 --> 00:34:36.719
the behoral sciences, And I legit was like, I don't

616
00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:39.000
read books. I read articles. That's how stupid I was.

617
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:41.920
And she goes, well, you should read more than an article.

618
00:34:41.960 --> 00:34:44.840
You get more depth. So she gave me a book

619
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:49.519
from one of her friends, mentors jumping by the name

620
00:34:49.559 --> 00:34:52.559
of Dan Ayellie, who wrote a book called Predictably Irrational.

621
00:34:53.239 --> 00:34:55.840
And I read the book and it completely blew me away,

622
00:34:56.239 --> 00:35:01.079
like it rang a bell that I couldn't unring. And

623
00:35:01.119 --> 00:35:04.000
I was so fascinated that I went back and read

624
00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:06.960
it again, and then I read it a third time,

625
00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:09.639
but this time I highlighted all the research I thought

626
00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:12.400
was really interesting, and I went to go read that research,

627
00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:17.760
and Kindomn led me to Lowenstein. Lowenstein led me to Condomen.

628
00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:22.039
Kindomn led me to all these other scholars. And this

629
00:35:22.239 --> 00:35:24.760
was reading. I just kept reading and reading and reading

630
00:35:24.760 --> 00:35:27.960
and reading. And as I read, I started to learn

631
00:35:27.960 --> 00:35:31.480
more about us as a species, the underlying physics of

632
00:35:31.559 --> 00:35:36.159
humanity and you know, lo and behold. The more I

633
00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:39.599
understood us, the better my work became. I mean, I'm

634
00:35:39.639 --> 00:35:44.280
talking like hockey stick difference. Like it went from like

635
00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:46.800
I'm kind of good to like really really good and

636
00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:54.559
like wow. And it's only because of my proximity to humanity,

637
00:35:54.639 --> 00:35:59.480
to people. And what I realized social being people is

638
00:35:59.519 --> 00:36:02.519
that we are a social animals by nature. Everything we

639
00:36:02.559 --> 00:36:08.000
do is given to be connected, to be together. We

640
00:36:08.039 --> 00:36:11.800
crash into each other, and our ability to evolve as

641
00:36:11.840 --> 00:36:15.920
a species is because of our ability to socialize and collaborate.

642
00:36:16.599 --> 00:36:20.119
And I just realized that this is the most important

643
00:36:20.760 --> 00:36:26.079
aspect of everything that I do, understanding humanity and what

644
00:36:26.360 --> 00:36:32.039
is the governing operating system of humanity? Culture? And here

645
00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:38.639
I find myself very much invested in cultural studies, understanding

646
00:36:39.280 --> 00:36:43.199
what makes us tick as a collective, not as individuals.

647
00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:47.119
Per se, but as a collective what makes us move

648
00:36:47.440 --> 00:36:51.000
and concert the way that we do. And what I

649
00:36:51.079 --> 00:36:54.159
find is while it's helped me be a better marketer,

650
00:36:54.559 --> 00:36:58.039
to help me be a better professor for sure, instructor, educator,

651
00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:00.000
but I think it also helps me be a better

652
00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:05.000
human in that I realize that there are many permutations

653
00:37:05.199 --> 00:37:08.800
of reality, many permutations of meaning with regards to how

654
00:37:08.840 --> 00:37:13.679
the world manifests, and therefore I don't typically hold objective

655
00:37:14.679 --> 00:37:17.239
truth in my mind. I know that my truth is

656
00:37:17.239 --> 00:37:20.159
just as valid as someone else's, and that helps me

657
00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:22.760
humanize them even if I don't agree with them. Even

658
00:37:22.760 --> 00:37:25.159
if I don't agree, I go, I see how you

659
00:37:25.199 --> 00:37:27.960
got there, And because I see how you can get there,

660
00:37:28.599 --> 00:37:31.400
I'm therefore more inclined to see the humanity in you

661
00:37:31.960 --> 00:37:35.519
and that helps. I think that helps make for more

662
00:37:35.559 --> 00:37:39.039
civil exchanges, and Lord knows me more of that these days.

663
00:37:39.559 --> 00:37:40.119
Yeah, we do.

664
00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:47.239
We need more just human everything, human connection, human everything.

665
00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:51.840
So that makes me wonder what do people get wrong

666
00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:56.880
about culture? And if it's separate belonging, but if it's

667
00:37:56.880 --> 00:37:58.760
the same role.

668
00:37:58.639 --> 00:38:04.480
With that, no, The biggest challenge for us when it

669
00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:10.679
comes to culture is one we have a humoris about it.

670
00:38:10.960 --> 00:38:13.400
We think that we know it because we experience it.

671
00:38:13.800 --> 00:38:19.280
You know, the culture is abstract, it is esoteric, it's intangible.

672
00:38:19.400 --> 00:38:21.679
It's like explaining water to a fish. It's in everything

673
00:38:21.719 --> 00:38:26.960
because it is everything, and that the esoteric nature of

674
00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:30.920
culture makes it very difficult to describe. Raymond Williams one

675
00:38:30.920 --> 00:38:34.800
of the most profound scholars of culture, and once said

676
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:37.400
the culture is probably one of the three most difficult

677
00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:42.920
words to define because of its omnipresence. So it's hard

678
00:38:42.920 --> 00:38:46.760
for us to define it. Then our hubris makes it

679
00:38:46.840 --> 00:38:48.960
even harder to even accept that the way we've been

680
00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:52.119
talking about it probably is superficial. In the world of

681
00:38:52.199 --> 00:38:57.320
marketing in particular, we use culture as a shortcut of

682
00:38:57.360 --> 00:38:59.519
popularity and we go, let's get our idea out in

683
00:38:59.519 --> 00:39:01.719
the culture. What for me is like, let's make our

684
00:39:01.719 --> 00:39:04.159
idea popular. What's going on in culture? Where people watching,

685
00:39:04.159 --> 00:39:06.039
what are they eating, where they wearing, what are they doing?

686
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:10.400
And while these things are cultural role they're byproducts of culture,

687
00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:15.000
they're not culture itself. And when we use these sort

688
00:39:15.039 --> 00:39:18.440
of superficial ways to describe culture, I think we rob

689
00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:23.360
our ability to fully engage in it. A mil Dirk Hine.

690
00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:25.960
When the founding fathers of sociology talks about culture as

691
00:39:25.960 --> 00:39:29.039
a system of conventions and expectations that de market who

692
00:39:29.039 --> 00:39:31.400
we are and government people like us do, and that

693
00:39:31.559 --> 00:39:35.760
system the system, it's everything. It is the way by

694
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:39.639
which we see the world, translated and engaged with it accordingly.

695
00:39:40.840 --> 00:39:44.079
So when marketers talked about getting our ideas out into culture,

696
00:39:44.119 --> 00:39:47.079
what really mean is to get our ideas adopted into

697
00:39:47.119 --> 00:39:50.079
an operating system of a given group of people. And

698
00:39:50.119 --> 00:39:55.079
when we do that, well, things change drastically. But when

699
00:39:55.079 --> 00:39:58.400
we look at people as like just what's cool, what's happening,

700
00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:00.400
where they watching, what are they're doing, and we're going

701
00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:03.519
to mimic that, well, that's like the easiest recipe to

702
00:40:03.559 --> 00:40:08.920
be dismissed. And because we think about culture and this

703
00:40:09.119 --> 00:40:15.679
very superficial way, I think we miss how they miss

704
00:40:15.800 --> 00:40:21.519
the richness of culture and how our cultures can be

705
00:40:21.800 --> 00:40:27.360
simultaneously paradoxically very very different but also very very similar,

706
00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:32.920
and in doing so it helps us find greater connection. Right,

707
00:40:32.960 --> 00:40:36.400
So we talk about belonging, we ask ourselves, do people

708
00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:39.719
like me do something like this? We find our people,

709
00:40:39.920 --> 00:40:43.840
you know, we were given to that A milderk him

710
00:40:44.360 --> 00:40:46.960
refer to this as a collective effortvescence, which is just

711
00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:52.400
the best phrase and it what it signifies is that

712
00:40:52.920 --> 00:40:55.559
people who subscribe to the same culture act and concert

713
00:40:55.599 --> 00:40:59.159
in an effort to promote social solidarity among themselves. So

714
00:40:59.239 --> 00:41:02.840
we are in cline to act accordingly to maintain good

715
00:41:02.840 --> 00:41:08.480
standing citizenship within our people to belong. Therefore, you know,

716
00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:12.039
belonging is a byproduct of culture, and as social animals,

717
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:14.159
we are given to belong.

718
00:41:15.719 --> 00:41:17.760
What would you say to somebody who doesn't feel like

719
00:41:17.800 --> 00:41:18.719
they belong.

720
00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:25.559
I'd say, uh, belong to whom. You know, there are

721
00:41:25.599 --> 00:41:28.360
people out there, you know, there's to every you know,

722
00:41:28.519 --> 00:41:32.519
to every every force is the equal and opposite force.

723
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:36.960
So while there are people who are die hard I

724
00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:41.559
don't know, uh, die hard K pop fans, there are

725
00:41:41.559 --> 00:41:43.559
people who like I can't stand K pop. Those are

726
00:41:43.599 --> 00:41:45.920
your people, right like the you know, if you think

727
00:41:45.920 --> 00:41:48.400
about the diffusion curve or the bill curve or the

728
00:41:48.440 --> 00:41:52.639
normal curve, they are two sides of the spectrum, you know.

729
00:41:52.760 --> 00:41:57.320
The way everon Rogers talked about it that ideas disperse

730
00:41:57.400 --> 00:42:00.559
in the population through innovators, early adopters, or the majority

731
00:42:00.559 --> 00:42:03.480
of late majority and laggards. The laggarts are just the

732
00:42:03.639 --> 00:42:06.840
equal opposite of the innovators, right, and the same thing

733
00:42:06.920 --> 00:42:09.199
goes here the challenge that you just haven't found your

734
00:42:09.239 --> 00:42:13.440
people yet, but they're out there. The idea is to

735
00:42:13.519 --> 00:42:15.719
find your people, you got to first know who you are,

736
00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:19.440
and that's the hard part. Like the the belonging isn't

737
00:42:19.480 --> 00:42:24.920
as difficult as realizing who you are first to know

738
00:42:25.079 --> 00:42:29.159
for whom or with whom you belong because oftentimes you know,

739
00:42:29.199 --> 00:42:32.719
you meet people, you go, we just clicked, We just clicked.

740
00:42:32.719 --> 00:42:36.800
It was like effortless. Like those kind of connections are

741
00:42:36.840 --> 00:42:40.000
typically because you all see the world very similarly, or

742
00:42:40.360 --> 00:42:42.880
you're fascinated by the way the other person sees the

743
00:42:42.880 --> 00:42:45.119
world and considering what we talked about earlier. When you're

744
00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:48.280
trying to find your thing, it starts with curiosity. You

745
00:42:48.280 --> 00:42:49.880
need to go, I want to know more about that

746
00:42:49.920 --> 00:42:51.880
because that's kind of cool, or I want to know

747
00:42:51.960 --> 00:42:54.000
I want to know more about this person because we

748
00:42:54.119 --> 00:42:59.039
seem so similar. They're you know, they're two different sides

749
00:42:59.079 --> 00:42:59.719
of the same coin.

750
00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:05.400
Quick before you forget, what small shift can people make

751
00:43:06.079 --> 00:43:09.679
that has an outsized impact on how they connect with others.

752
00:43:11.440 --> 00:43:17.960
Empathy, the smallest shift is realizing a truth of fact

753
00:43:18.519 --> 00:43:20.360
that things aren't the way they are, they are the

754
00:43:20.360 --> 00:43:23.519
way that we are, That the world is not objective,

755
00:43:23.519 --> 00:43:27.800
it is subjective, and your truth is just as real

756
00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:31.679
and just as valid as someone else's. So long as

757
00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:35.000
someone else's truth or your truth doesn't mean their eradication,

758
00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:39.199
their mitigation, their opration, their oppression, so long as it

759
00:43:39.199 --> 00:43:43.280
doesn't mean their erasure, then like these two things can coexist.

760
00:43:43.719 --> 00:43:46.920
In fact, in fact, we're better off when they do.

761
00:43:47.320 --> 00:43:49.039
Like that's sort of the beauty of it all. This

762
00:43:49.159 --> 00:43:54.880
is why diversity, equity inclusion is always you know, associated,

763
00:43:55.480 --> 00:43:59.800
because the diverse perspectives well. First, when we realize that

764
00:44:00.039 --> 00:44:03.199
our perspective aren't the only ones, that it opens up

765
00:44:03.239 --> 00:44:06.159
to be more inclusive of people who have different perspectives.

766
00:44:06.639 --> 00:44:11.119
And we realize that our perspective doesn't doesn't have more

767
00:44:11.199 --> 00:44:13.760
weight or merit than someone else's that we feel like,

768
00:44:13.920 --> 00:44:17.239
we realize there's some equity with regards to how our

769
00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:21.400
perspectives coincide, and by its very nature, then we realize

770
00:44:21.440 --> 00:44:25.199
that hey, diverse perspectives can help us see the world

771
00:44:25.320 --> 00:44:30.559
more vividly, and it windens the aperture of how the

772
00:44:30.639 --> 00:44:36.599
world manifests, which then uncovers new opportunities, new solutions that

773
00:44:36.639 --> 00:44:39.880
we may have never even considered. And doing that, the

774
00:44:39.920 --> 00:44:44.800
world gets a lot more vivid, and I think the

775
00:44:44.840 --> 00:44:47.440
world becomes a lot more meaningful. And that's just a

776
00:44:47.480 --> 00:44:49.000
small mental shift.

777
00:44:50.440 --> 00:44:52.880
It's a big one. It's a little big one, right,

778
00:44:53.480 --> 00:44:55.760
It's a little shift that has a vague impact, which

779
00:44:56.599 --> 00:44:59.239
is a powerful thing in today's world. So what is

780
00:44:59.320 --> 00:45:03.320
something about culture or human behavior that you hope people

781
00:45:04.119 --> 00:45:08.599
cling on to or remember in hard times? Because you know,

782
00:45:08.679 --> 00:45:11.239
I'm thinking about the pressure we're under, and I know

783
00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:14.559
that like pressure. There's quotes out there and I don't

784
00:45:14.559 --> 00:45:16.400
know who to attribute it to, but there's quotes about

785
00:45:16.480 --> 00:45:21.440
pressure revealing culture. So it makes me curious what leaders

786
00:45:21.920 --> 00:45:24.800
do right and wrong under pressure, which we're all in

787
00:45:24.880 --> 00:45:27.400
right now in the country and in the world. It

788
00:45:27.480 --> 00:45:29.440
just feels like a very high pressure moment.

789
00:45:30.440 --> 00:45:35.880
I think it's easy in times of pressure, in times

790
00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:42.480
of fear, to create in groups and out groups because

791
00:45:42.760 --> 00:45:45.039
our brain is wired for that. It means safety. You know,

792
00:45:45.559 --> 00:45:50.000
I'm morbilling to trust people who are like me. And

793
00:45:50.960 --> 00:45:53.280
when you can't read people's minds or you don't have

794
00:45:53.920 --> 00:45:57.199
any stated preferences of how people see the world. You

795
00:45:57.239 --> 00:46:02.320
look at the veneer, how they dress, the colors, their artifacts,

796
00:46:02.599 --> 00:46:07.199
their behaviors, their language. These are all expressions or they're

797
00:46:07.239 --> 00:46:10.039
all shared ways of life for a given group of people.

798
00:46:11.880 --> 00:46:17.760
But that sort of bifurcation of in and out only

799
00:46:18.159 --> 00:46:22.280
makes the world smaller for us. It's safer in our minds,

800
00:46:23.559 --> 00:46:26.239
but the world is much more smaller. We live in

801
00:46:27.079 --> 00:46:35.800
this massive assembly of human beings that we call states, countries, continents,

802
00:46:35.920 --> 00:46:41.199
even and therefore, if we are to be in community

803
00:46:41.719 --> 00:46:44.280
within a given group of people, then we need to

804
00:46:44.360 --> 00:46:48.400
redefine who's in and who's out. We have a natural

805
00:46:48.400 --> 00:46:54.119
inclination to have in and out, maybe right now, at

806
00:46:54.239 --> 00:46:58.480
least in this country, we need to redefine what's in

807
00:46:58.519 --> 00:47:03.559
and what's out. What's in should be the collective shared

808
00:47:03.599 --> 00:47:07.000
imaginations of the given group of people. And you know,

809
00:47:07.119 --> 00:47:09.679
quite frankly, I think that we all agree that that

810
00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:12.760
was going to be the Constitution, the spirit of the

811
00:47:12.760 --> 00:47:17.719
Constitution in today's context, that was the thing that was

812
00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:21.119
the imagination that kind of unified us all. But we have,

813
00:47:22.039 --> 00:47:26.000
like just like any religion, you know, we've created denominationisms,

814
00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:29.920
and these denominations have said this is us, that's them,

815
00:47:29.920 --> 00:47:35.119
and we are different. But you know it's the scripture

816
00:47:35.119 --> 00:47:38.400
would say we are one body of price. The idea

817
00:47:38.480 --> 00:47:42.039
there is that we need to be unified. There is

818
00:47:42.679 --> 00:47:47.639
you look at bibically beginning at times, there are just

819
00:47:47.719 --> 00:47:52.719
two kinds of people Jews and gentiles, them and them.

820
00:47:52.960 --> 00:47:55.039
That's it, And that's kind of how we need to

821
00:47:55.039 --> 00:48:01.079
think about ourselves. That there are the people who subscribe

822
00:48:01.119 --> 00:48:07.880
to this broader imagination, right but realize that there are

823
00:48:08.119 --> 00:48:13.480
different expressions of that imagination that don't exclude us. And

824
00:48:13.480 --> 00:48:16.800
then realize that then there's people who are completely against

825
00:48:16.800 --> 00:48:18.840
that imagination. Those aren't our people.

826
00:48:21.079 --> 00:48:25.239
That was beautifully said in a very difficult conversation to

827
00:48:25.280 --> 00:48:28.840
have right now. So I appreciate how well spoken that was,

828
00:48:29.159 --> 00:48:32.159
and thank you. I want to know if you had

829
00:48:32.320 --> 00:48:36.880
a megaphone to say one thing that everybody had to

830
00:48:36.920 --> 00:48:41.760
listen to right now, what would it be, Oh.

831
00:48:41.679 --> 00:48:48.719
Dennis, gracious, I would say, imagine if it were you,

832
00:48:49.840 --> 00:48:52.639
Imagine if it were your kid. Imagine if it were

833
00:48:52.840 --> 00:48:55.880
your wife. Imagine if it was your husband, Imagine if

834
00:48:55.960 --> 00:48:59.679
it were you. I think right now today the biggest

835
00:48:59.719 --> 00:49:05.760
challenge we have is an empathy deficiency that we refuse

836
00:49:05.800 --> 00:49:08.840
to see the world outside of our own lenses, and

837
00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:13.039
we refuse to see ourself in that scenario until it

838
00:49:13.039 --> 00:49:15.920
actually happens to us. When it happens to us, we go, oh, man,

839
00:49:16.440 --> 00:49:19.920
I didn't want this, this is what I wanted. It's like,

840
00:49:19.960 --> 00:49:24.199
but that's actually what you asked for. And the thing is,

841
00:49:24.440 --> 00:49:27.880
you never thought it would happen to you. And if

842
00:49:27.920 --> 00:49:30.840
I had a megaphone, I would go, imagine if it

843
00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:33.519
happened to you, Imagine if it were you. And oh,

844
00:49:33.559 --> 00:49:36.719
by the way, it can happen to you. So by

845
00:49:36.760 --> 00:49:42.000
all means, please please please practice a little empathy. That's

846
00:49:42.440 --> 00:49:44.719
that's the thing that's missing the most. If we just

847
00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:49.719
had a little bit more empathy, I think we go, hey, man,

848
00:49:49.840 --> 00:49:52.000
like I don't agree with you, but I see how

849
00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:54.840
you got there, and like I feel for you. I

850
00:49:55.719 --> 00:50:00.039
feel for you, or better I feel with you. I

851
00:50:00.039 --> 00:50:03.000
think that you know, we only see that happen in

852
00:50:03.079 --> 00:50:07.079
times of great, great tragedy. Unfortunately, you know, there are

853
00:50:07.079 --> 00:50:10.000
moments of the country where you know, we were facing

854
00:50:10.039 --> 00:50:15.920
some really really hard challenges and we found we found

855
00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:20.639
solidarity because we started to see each other's humanity because

856
00:50:20.679 --> 00:50:24.639
we were we saw what these ramifications meant for us,

857
00:50:25.039 --> 00:50:28.800
and I think that we don't have to wait till

858
00:50:28.800 --> 00:50:30.960
that happens, that we should be able to see it

859
00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:31.960
in other people.

860
00:50:33.559 --> 00:50:37.199
I agree one hundred per I did see on your

861
00:50:37.239 --> 00:50:40.519
social media something very exciting about a new book that

862
00:50:40.559 --> 00:50:41.559
you finished.

863
00:50:41.199 --> 00:50:44.360
At the end of last year. Talk to me about that.

864
00:50:44.880 --> 00:50:49.360
Yes, So I spent my entire career, scholarly career, that is,

865
00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:52.519
studying culture and it's influence and impact of human behavior.

866
00:50:52.760 --> 00:50:55.920
As a practitioner, I worked in it, and the scholarship

867
00:50:55.960 --> 00:50:59.280
is sort of taking the things that did in practice

868
00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:02.199
with what we know literature, and that became sort of

869
00:51:02.239 --> 00:51:08.559
my platform for which my work was brought to the world.

870
00:51:09.280 --> 00:51:12.679
But I realized, though, after writing for the culture and

871
00:51:12.719 --> 00:51:16.679
having the great, great, great, great pleasure and great fortune

872
00:51:16.760 --> 00:51:18.559
to work with a lot of companies to help them

873
00:51:18.559 --> 00:51:21.719
instill that thinking into the walls of your organization, I

874
00:51:21.800 --> 00:51:27.000
realized that their ability to apply the thinking had very

875
00:51:27.039 --> 00:51:33.480
little to do with skill, know how, talent, technology, fair

876
00:51:33.519 --> 00:51:35.400
little to do with that, but everything to do with

877
00:51:35.440 --> 00:51:38.719
their organizational culture. And he goes, oh, man, like, you're

878
00:51:38.800 --> 00:51:44.280
hiring these amazing people from great schools with great experiences,

879
00:51:44.360 --> 00:51:48.079
just really really super people and they're coming here and

880
00:51:48.119 --> 00:51:50.559
somehow or another, they just can't make it work. It's like

881
00:51:50.840 --> 00:51:54.000
watching a basketball team or a baseball team, or any

882
00:51:54.280 --> 00:51:57.679
sports team, like yet the best players together and somehow,

883
00:51:57.719 --> 00:51:59.800
a known they kind of suck. What's going on here?

884
00:52:00.280 --> 00:52:03.639
What's happening here? And I see that happening in organizations

885
00:52:03.639 --> 00:52:07.960
over and over and over again, and that in helping

886
00:52:08.039 --> 00:52:11.440
companies or institutionalize the thinking of my work, I have

887
00:52:11.480 --> 00:52:15.320
to see it like firsthand, like right, you know, front

888
00:52:15.320 --> 00:52:19.480
and center. And I realized that the only way that

889
00:52:19.519 --> 00:52:22.559
we become better in the front stage what we put

890
00:52:22.559 --> 00:52:25.599
out into the world, be it marketing, whatever, you know,

891
00:52:26.039 --> 00:52:34.519
whatever presentation that is the company that that presentation is

892
00:52:35.199 --> 00:52:39.519
highly dependent on the backstage. If you want to have

893
00:52:39.559 --> 00:52:44.519
a better front stage production, you need a more optimized backstage.

894
00:52:44.519 --> 00:52:47.480
You can have the best actors with the best costumery,

895
00:52:47.920 --> 00:52:53.679
the best script, the best props, the best everything, but

896
00:52:53.880 --> 00:52:57.559
it won't be its best production unless the backstage is optimized.

897
00:52:57.840 --> 00:53:00.159
So this work I've been doing over the last two

898
00:53:00.199 --> 00:53:04.360
and a half years now studying organizational culture and looking

899
00:53:04.440 --> 00:53:08.880
at the underlying physics that are at play when people

900
00:53:08.920 --> 00:53:11.119
come together to engage the collective production of work.

901
00:53:12.760 --> 00:53:17.199
Sounds very necessary right now, Amen, Marcus, I could talk

902
00:53:17.239 --> 00:53:19.719
to you for hours. Unfortunately we don't have hours, but

903
00:53:20.079 --> 00:53:23.400
I want to ask you two more questions, and those are,

904
00:53:23.639 --> 00:53:25.960
first of all, if there's something that I didn't ask

905
00:53:26.039 --> 00:53:28.239
that you would want to share after our conversation, that

906
00:53:28.280 --> 00:53:31.880
would be lovely. And people need more Marcus in their lives.

907
00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:33.880
So can you talk us through where they can find

908
00:53:34.400 --> 00:53:36.920
you and your your work and your content.

909
00:53:37.239 --> 00:53:40.119
That's very kind. If there's something you didn't ask that

910
00:53:40.119 --> 00:53:42.920
I would want to say, is it that you know?

911
00:53:43.039 --> 00:53:47.280
I think no matter where I've been in my life,

912
00:53:47.800 --> 00:53:52.039
like I've always remained in student posture, it's always like

913
00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:55.039
there's so much more to learn. I think. I think

914
00:53:55.119 --> 00:54:00.000
that's why I did well as a doctoral student, because

915
00:54:00.119 --> 00:54:01.840
is I came in humble, like I was, like, I

916
00:54:01.880 --> 00:54:05.079
don't know anything. Teach me the ways. And as I

917
00:54:05.159 --> 00:54:09.039
learned more, I realized like a good doctoral student should

918
00:54:09.280 --> 00:54:11.760
is that you don't know anything, and so I kind

919
00:54:11.800 --> 00:54:13.719
of I didn't have to be knocked off a pedestal.

920
00:54:14.119 --> 00:54:15.800
I came in with that humility and I still had

921
00:54:15.800 --> 00:54:19.679
that humility today and I think that like if I

922
00:54:19.719 --> 00:54:22.079
were to give anyone advice to be that, it's like,

923
00:54:22.119 --> 00:54:26.880
you know, stay humble, but also stay hungry. Good night,

924
00:54:27.039 --> 00:54:32.159
Like have an insatiable curiosity, insatiable hunger for the thing

925
00:54:32.239 --> 00:54:34.360
that you're that you're going after in an effort to

926
00:54:34.840 --> 00:54:37.480
be the best at it, but realizing that you're always

927
00:54:37.519 --> 00:54:40.079
just buffering. You never sort of arrive. And that's the

928
00:54:40.079 --> 00:54:42.079
beauty of it of it all. As far as where

929
00:54:42.119 --> 00:54:43.960
you can find me, I'm across the web and you

930
00:54:44.239 --> 00:54:47.920
search doctor Marcus Collins. Hopefully good stuff will pop up,

931
00:54:48.039 --> 00:54:51.400
but uh, you can find me online at mark to

932
00:54:51.440 --> 00:54:54.000
the c M A R C t O T H

933
00:54:54.119 --> 00:55:00.400
E C or on substack, substack dot com, mark to

934
00:55:00.400 --> 00:55:05.559
the Sea, install LinkedIn. And I also have a column

935
00:55:05.719 --> 00:55:09.480
that I write every week on a fast company and

936
00:55:09.840 --> 00:55:12.719
my own podcast, We're a few episodes behind you, my

937
00:55:12.800 --> 00:55:16.719
own podcast from the Culture, where we're exploring the inner

938
00:55:16.760 --> 00:55:20.639
workings of organizational culture and what it means for leaders

939
00:55:20.639 --> 00:55:21.880
at large.

940
00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:25.159
Thank you for all of that. Thank you for pouring

941
00:55:25.199 --> 00:55:28.320
into us today with your genius and your just your

942
00:55:28.360 --> 00:55:31.280
heart and your soul. I really appreciate it, really appreciate you,

943
00:55:31.920 --> 00:55:34.400
and we will see you next time again on Quick

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Before You Forget. Thank you, thank you, thank you for

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being here with me today on Quick Before You Forget.

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Please like, share and subscribe as that helps the show

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00:55:45.280 --> 00:55:48.280
so much and I really appreciate it. And I'll see

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you next time on Quick Before You Forget.