Sept. 25, 2026

Show, Don't Tell: Kelly Madrone on The Secret to Telling Stories People Actually Feel

Show, Don't Tell: Kelly Madrone on The Secret to Telling Stories People Actually Feel

The difference between a story people hear and a story people feel is in how you tell it. New York Times bestselling writer Kelly Madrone knows some things about how to breathe life into the words on the page. She’s spent nearly 30 years in...

Season 1

The difference between a story people hear and a story people feel is in how you tell it.

New York Times bestselling writer Kelly Madrone knows some things about how to breathe life into the words on the page.

She’s spent nearly 30 years in publishing as a writer, ghostwriter, editor, collaborator, and writing coach. And the day before we recorded this conversation, Kelly learned that the memoir she co-wrote with Jaclyn Smith had debuted at #9 on the New York Times bestseller list.

Though we do celebrate that massive career win with a great story involving a cactus, a fall, and a bear with some pears, this episode is actually about everything that happens along the way rather than "how to become a bestselling writer."

Because we're friends here, we go there.

The rejection. The rewrites. The falling down...sometimes literally into a cactus. The intentional, often hard choice to keep showing up. And the realization that the dream isn’t only the peak moments.

It's that, sure. But also it is learning how to tell the stories we collect along the way in a way that makes another human being lean in, connect, and feel something.

That’s where "Show, Don’t Tell" comes in. Kelly explains the difference with one line I haven’t stopped thinking about since we had this conversation: “I knew what happened, but I didn’t know how he lived it.”

That is this episode of Quick Before You Forget. Learn more about Kelly and her incredible work at https://kellymadrone.com/show-dont-tell

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Obviously, we know we know where it ended. So like

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spoiler alert, New York Times bestseller.

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Yay. Yeah. Where did the day start? The day started

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and it had been, you know, kind of a tough,

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tough couple months, a tough after a tough couple of

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years in one way or another. I mean, there are

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lots of great, great things. You know, I always say

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life is a mixed bag. Rarely is it one or

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the other, even if one is kind of more predominant

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at the time. But yesterday morning I woke up and

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I'm an early riser, but I don't usually get up

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at four. But my wife was waking me up and

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she was frantic. And what I found out was it

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was because there was a bear in like leaning in

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our window.

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Kelly Madrone, welcome to Quick Before You Forget. I'm so

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happy you're here with me today.

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Thank you, Ty. We've been talking about this for a minute.

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And so, you know, I'm always happy to talk to

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you on podcast, off podcast, anywhere, texting, whatever.

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For a minute. Yes. For a minute. We've been friends

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for a minute and we need to. I need to

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like back us up because my friends don't even know

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who you are or why we're here. And that is

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super important to me. So please, Kelly, will you kind

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of just level set with us, walk us through a little,

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like your, your 92nd, who is Kelly?

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I should have an elevator speech prepared and I don't, that's, that's,

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I feel like that's the realm of my clients. Um,

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so I am a writer first and foremost, it's pretty simple,

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but I do, um, ghost writing, collaborative writing. I'm an editor.

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I'm a writing coach. And I came to this by

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way of, I've worked, I've done something in books and

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writing for my entire career, which is about 30-ish, 30

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years now. I always say like, this is my origin

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story is I sold my very first story at the

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age of seven to the York Dispatch newspaper. And I got,

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you know, it was like one of these kids, elementary school, like,

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little fiction stories that I wrote and it got published

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and they sent me a dollar and they sent me

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a junior press badge and I still have them. So

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I was like, I'm hooked. I, you know, I, even

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though I contemplated all kinds of like fantastical careers, like

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architect and artist, even though I never, I've never was

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ever good at art growing up, I always wanted to

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be a writer. That was always my first love. And

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so when I, um, graduated college. I got into, I

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did a graduate course at the University of Denver in publishing.

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And then I got into publishing, working on the editorial

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side as an assistant, as we all start out in publishing.

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On the editorial side, you're an editorial assistant. And then

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eventually got promoted, became an acquisitions editor, developmental editor, et cetera.

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Got into corporate communications for a while. And then I

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looped back out and became a full-time Um, freelancer extraordinaire

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doing writing and ghostwriting and collaborating with authors. And along

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the way, I did write and publish two of my

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own books, which were self-help books for teens. Um, but

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mostly in the last many years, I've been writing for

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other people and helping other people with their writing. And

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I should say I focus on nonfiction, which includes memoir.

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et cetera. I write some fiction myself, but I don't

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really work in that area for other people.

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I feel like you way undersold yourself.

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Should I say what happened yesterday? Yes. Yes.

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Tell them what happened yesterday.

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I was one of the first people I texted because

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she's been part of this ongoing saga. So I was

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in a meeting and I came out and I checked

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my phone and there was an email from the assistant

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of a prominent editor at a prominent publishing house And

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she said, I kind of quickly scanned the subject line

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and I'm like, is this what I think it is?

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And she said, you know, we're on the New York

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Times bestseller list and we're debuting at number nine. So

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a book that I co-wrote, I'll say, like with Jacqueline Smith,

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who was, I mean, if you're a Charlie's Angels fan,

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you know exactly who that is. If you're a mini,

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if you grew up in the 80s, you know who

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that is. But I was a huge Charlie's Angels fan.

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But I worked very closely with Jacqueline Smith on her memoir.

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It's right on the shelf behind me. Really proud of it.

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And I will say I absolutely adore her. She is

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all kinds of wonderful. She's incredible to work with. And

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I want the best outcome possible for everybody I work with.

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But we got, like, close working on her book. And

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I just, you know... we became friends and I just want,

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and I knew she was really taking a risk because

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she's in the, she's a private person. And she says

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that in the book, like she kind of had to

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be persuaded to write this book. And she kept saying

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to me, she's like, is anybody really going to be

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interested in this? And then we were like, yes. So

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she's also very modest, but I, I really wanted this

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book to do well for her. And because we were

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both really proud of the work, we loved it. We,

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we really liked how it came out. And so to

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have that kind of acknowledgement is just amazing. And for

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me and what I do, it's the best thing that

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can happen, you know, for my authors, but also for me, because,

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you know, when you work with New York Times bestsellers,

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and I have worked on New York Times bestsellers before,

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but this is the biggest role that I've had in

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actually writing one. So, yeah.

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What did it feel like? Walk me through getting that email.

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That's the thing. Like you think you say you got

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an email and you skimmed it and it said these words.

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What were you feeling? What was going on in your heart?

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I'll tell you. I was thinking a couple of things

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about it this morning. That, you know, you've heard me

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do this before because I do some trail running and

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I think that there are a lot of comparisons between

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writing the writing life and trail running. So there was

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a huge event yesterday. weeks ago called UTMB it's like

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they call it the Super Bowl of trail running and

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the guy who won it won in record time and

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I heard this great interview with him afterwards and one

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of the things he said was this was a four-year

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project for me like I focused on no other he

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did other races but he didn't focus on winning any

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other race and it was like the day-to-day going out

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there he said you know all the work was all

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the runs that I did by myself or with this

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running partner he goes out with and it's like all

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the choices about what's he going to eat all the

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choices about all the days that, you know, they have

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their own fun to them because you're doing something you love,

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but the experience of like winning a race is happens

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so seldom, you know, even if they do well, how

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often did they win a race, let alone one of

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the most prominent races in the world. And so I

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think writing is a lot like that. I mean, I

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work on many books. Most of them will never be

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on the New York Times bestseller list in part because

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of volume. It's, And in part because the New York

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Times bestseller list, people think it's like straightforward. You sell

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X number of books, you get on the list. It

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is a very complex calculation of how these numbers land

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and when and what types of sales. And so I

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know that there's a lot that goes into it. And

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I knew that Jacqueline's editor had prepared her that it's like,

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we're hoping for a New York Times bestseller, but... You know,

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like any good editor would say, like the fall is

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kind of the busiest book release time and it is

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the most competitive time, essentially. So we'll see. We'll hope

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for the best and we'll see. We'll do our best.

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So getting that message, what was great about it was

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the meeting that I had come from, it was an

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in-person meeting, which I don't have a lot of because

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I live in a rural area. So like no clients

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live here except for this one person. who's really special.

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And we were talking about some really powerful things. And

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we're talking about his memoir that I'm going to be

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working on. And so I came out of this meeting,

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just feeling really wonderful for having, you know, reconnected with

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this person who I adore. And then I opened my

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phone and I see, and I read it. And of

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course I'm immediately trying to call my wife who's not

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available and I'm calling and calling and calling and she's

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like all busy. But it was just like, Wow. I

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had to let it sink in. It was like, we

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did it. We did it because it's one of those things.

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Like when I published my first book under my own name,

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I was like 23. It was the first book that

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I worked on, you know, in that, in that, in

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any real writing way, it was my own book. And

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I thought I'm a published author. And that meant something

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different back then we didn't have self-publishing. So you had

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to get a publisher to buy your book. And that

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was its own process. And I thought, wow, I felt

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happy and I felt relieved. Like I did it. I

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can always now say I have a book that I did.

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And I felt the same way. Like I have a,

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I have a black belt and Taekwondo. And when I

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got that and I got that in my late twenties.

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So I was like the, you know, an adult, I

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wasn't like a little kid. And I had, so I

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went through a different mental and physical process doing that.

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And when I got my first degree black belt, I thought, wow,

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I did it. I put in all this work and

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I got there. And I kind of had a similar

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feeling because it's like, once you are in that role

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and you've worked on a New York Times bestseller people

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look at you differently in the industry you know because

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I've literally had jobs where authors have wanted to hire

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me but the editor came in and said she doesn't

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have a New York Times bestseller And I want your

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book to have a, like, they didn't, the editor didn't

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know me. They'd never worked with me. They didn't know

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what I could do. And I was just getting dismissed

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because of that. And I always said yet, yet. And

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I will, you know, I did. I believed that. And

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the reason, and, and I will go back to this

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guy who won this race. He said, I trained to

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the point that it felt inevitable that, I put in

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the work to the point that it felt inevitable. And

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to me, I'll say it's not 100% me. It's circumstances,

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it's luck. I have an amazing mentor in this business

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who used to be an executive editor for Random House.

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She herself has just retired as one of the top

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ghostwriters in the business. She has advocated and put me

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in front of agents to give me opportunities. Like, you know,

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I don't know where I'd be yet in my career

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without her. So it's all those things. But the backbone

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is the work that you put in every day. So

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I just felt like if I keep showing up, I'm

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now in front of enough people. I'm now doing enough

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of the kind of work at the level that I

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need to be doing. Always room for improvement. Always room

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for more. That it feels inevitable. And like I said,

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I worked on New York Times bestsellers in different capacities.

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So I've been parts of that team before. And I

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will say working with, Jacqueline and her platform and her,

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like how loved she is. I just knew that the,

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that the, the things were there, you know, the pieces

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were there that it could, you know, it could come

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together on this one. So yeah.

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There's a lot to unpack there.

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A lot.

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Like, first of all, my mind went to what's next.

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Are we going to Disney? Like what's good. What are we,

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how are we celebrating this magic? So bookmark that question.

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And you jumped right over your books. Like you jumped right.

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You're like, I wrote these books and I was 20

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and it was great. And I was published. What are

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your books called?

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Yeah.

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And also props to you for being a super theoretical

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or a super, you practice what you preach because I'm riveted.

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Like I'm like leaning in. I, you're a great, such

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a good storyteller. And like, not like a, like a

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theatrical person per se, but really good at storytelling because

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I heard what you were saying about the runner. I

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knew you were going to circle back to it and

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what value there is in that story. He's, he trained

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to the point it felt inevitable and like that's life.

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Like that's legit. Like you said, it was a lot like,

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like writing, but it's also a lot like life. Like

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you train and you do the reps and you do

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the things until it feels inevitable. And that's, that's so cool.

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And the thing, and as with like other things still

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have to line up, you know, like at the same race,

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a whole bunch of people were wiped out with stomach flu,

243
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something you really have little to no control over, you know,

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that could have happened. So there's always, I will say

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God's grace, there's whatever the universe conspiring to support you. Like,

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however you, you know, if you have a space for that,

247
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there's that, and there's other people. And there's always other

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people involved.

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We call it Gus around here, Kelly. It's Gus. God, universe, source, spirit.

250
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Kelly knows this because we've talked about it, but I'm

251
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just making sure our friends know his name is Gus

252
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and Gus does his thing, right?

253
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That's right. On Gus's time and in Gus's way. And

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your job is to keep doing your thing, right?

255
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And keep showing up. You said the words, you keep

256
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showing up and you keep putting in the reps and

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you keep believing. I think it's a mindset thing too, though,

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because you have to, like you said, you have to

259
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believe that essentially the impossible is possible. And that's what

260
00:14:12.549 --> 00:14:14.529
the runner did. That's what y'all did with this book.

261
00:14:14.700 --> 00:14:18.940
And that's so stinking cool. And what are the titles

262
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of your books?

263
00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:23.299
So the first book is out of print now. It's

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called Young People in Chronic Illness, True Stories, Help and Hope,

265
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which is a pretty straightforward title. That's the title that

266
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the publisher chose. But it was, I went out and

267
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I did interviewed kids with chronic illness because growing up

268
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at age 12, I was diagnosed with Crohn's disease. And

269
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at that time, because I'm old, because I'm 52, at

270
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the time when I was 12, 40 years ago, that

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was a, now everybody knows what it is. But back

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then people didn't, it was, nobody had heard of it.

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The doctors at the time said, this is a very

274
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rare condition. And it was, you know, it wasn't underdiagnosed.

275
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It was a very rare condition at the time that

276
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has become very common. But being a kid with chronic

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illness and coming back to school and having been diagnosed

278
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with something, I didn't know anyone else who was having

279
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that experience. Now, world of difference. My book now would

280
00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:16.070
have been, you know, like it would have had to

281
00:15:16.090 --> 00:15:18.730
have been a totally different book because unfortunately that's, it's

282
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common for kids to be struggling with some different physical things.

283
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But at the time I saw, this was when I

284
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was at the University of Denver Publishing Institute. We actually

285
00:15:28.870 --> 00:15:32.080
got to interact with different publishers and And we were

286
00:15:32.100 --> 00:15:35.159
supposed to, for a project, create a book pitch and

287
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pitch them on it. But only I decided to create

288
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a real book pitch and I pitched the woman and

289
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I followed up with her and I followed up and

290
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they bought it and they ended up buying it. And

291
00:15:43.450 --> 00:15:47.009
so we did that. And then I want to say

292
00:15:47.029 --> 00:15:50.950
it's maybe seven years after that. I wrote a book

293
00:15:51.250 --> 00:15:56.289
for a self-help book for LGBTQ teens that is still

294
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out there and going. It's in its third edition. When

295
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it first came out, it was called GLBTQ survival guide,

296
00:16:04.220 --> 00:16:09.379
you know, for lesbian, bisexual, transgender. We flipped it now

297
00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:12.379
because now the common, more common acronym is LGBTQ. So

298
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now that's the title. But yeah, that's, that's still out

299
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there and it's still going. I don't think we'll do

300
00:16:18.690 --> 00:16:20.570
a fourth edition. I think, you know, like, I think

301
00:16:20.610 --> 00:16:23.190
other people have now picked that, picked up that mantle.

302
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There are a lot of resources out there. There are

303
00:16:26.580 --> 00:16:28.120
a lot of issues that I don't think it's for

304
00:16:28.159 --> 00:16:32.200
me to get into. And, And I'm a lot older

305
00:16:32.259 --> 00:16:35.600
now than when I first wrote it. So the gap between,

306
00:16:35.679 --> 00:16:38.039
even though I feel still very connected, I love writing

307
00:16:38.100 --> 00:16:42.830
for teams, et cetera. I think, you know, again, other

308
00:16:42.850 --> 00:16:45.929
people have that. And so I don't imagine doing another edition,

309
00:16:45.970 --> 00:16:49.149
but that's what, that's.

310
00:16:49.269 --> 00:16:49.769
I will tell.

311
00:16:49.789 --> 00:16:50.190
Right. Yes.

312
00:16:50.230 --> 00:16:51.409
You never know. So I have been banned.

313
00:16:54.700 --> 00:16:57.840
Banned books. Banned books week is coming up in October.

314
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So I've been banned. My wife got me a shirt

315
00:17:00.340 --> 00:17:01.360
that said banned author.

316
00:17:01.860 --> 00:17:02.379
Nice.

317
00:17:02.700 --> 00:17:10.779
In multiple states. So yeah, I am a corruptor of children. Please,

318
00:17:11.099 --> 00:17:12.589
please make a clip.

319
00:17:13.609 --> 00:17:18.190
We don't say that on this show. Kelly, we need

320
00:17:18.210 --> 00:17:19.250
some PR training.

321
00:17:19.269 --> 00:17:19.710
I know.

322
00:17:19.829 --> 00:17:27.529
Yeah. And we keep showing up. You mentioned, to pivot,

323
00:17:28.069 --> 00:17:31.380
you mentioned that you live in a rural area. And

324
00:17:31.630 --> 00:17:38.380
I want to rewind to yesterday at 4 a.m. Because

325
00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:41.279
you told us the fun, amazing story about the New

326
00:17:41.299 --> 00:17:44.829
York Times bestseller. And I think what's really cool about

327
00:17:44.869 --> 00:17:48.769
that story is that you started your day on the ground, literally.

328
00:17:48.789 --> 00:17:48.869
Yeah.

329
00:17:49.410 --> 00:17:51.730
And I think that like literally, and I want to,

330
00:17:51.789 --> 00:17:54.759
I want to share that story with our friends because

331
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I think that it's an important metaphor for all of

332
00:17:56.940 --> 00:17:58.700
us and something for all of us to learn from,

333
00:17:58.859 --> 00:18:02.119
lean into and fully adapt into our lives. So talk

334
00:18:02.200 --> 00:18:04.920
us through, obviously we know, we know where it ended.

335
00:18:05.119 --> 00:18:07.430
So like spoiler alert, New York Times bestseller. Yay.

336
00:18:07.460 --> 00:18:07.799
Yeah.

337
00:18:07.819 --> 00:18:09.339
Where did the day start?

338
00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:12.220
The day started and it had been, you know, kind

339
00:18:12.269 --> 00:18:15.710
of a, a tough, a tough couple months, a tough,

340
00:18:15.910 --> 00:18:18.440
after a tough couple of years. in one way or another.

341
00:18:18.460 --> 00:18:20.680
I mean, there are lots of great, great things. You know,

342
00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:22.519
I always say life is a mixed bag. Rarely is

343
00:18:22.579 --> 00:18:24.400
it one or the other, even if one is kind

344
00:18:24.440 --> 00:18:29.950
of more predominant at the time. But yesterday morning I

345
00:18:30.009 --> 00:18:32.029
woke up and I'm an early riser, but I don't

346
00:18:32.089 --> 00:18:34.630
usually get up at four, but my wife was waking

347
00:18:34.650 --> 00:18:37.009
me up and she was frantic. And what I found

348
00:18:37.150 --> 00:18:39.700
out was it was because there was a bear in

349
00:18:39.720 --> 00:18:47.569
like leaning in our window and So the sad thing

350
00:18:47.710 --> 00:18:50.849
is it's so dry here. There's nothing for the bear seat.

351
00:18:50.890 --> 00:18:53.650
So they've come down from the mountain. They're getting in

352
00:18:53.690 --> 00:18:55.509
everybody's trash or whatever. And we're doing our best to

353
00:18:55.549 --> 00:18:58.549
just secure things, but it's really sad, but this is

354
00:18:58.589 --> 00:19:00.910
how desperate they are right now. So we had our

355
00:19:01.349 --> 00:19:04.359
kitchen window open like an inch and the bear ripped

356
00:19:04.390 --> 00:19:08.079
out the screen, opened the window, leaned in and held

357
00:19:08.119 --> 00:19:11.339
himself to some pears and understandably my cats freaked out

358
00:19:11.380 --> 00:19:14.880
and they woke us up. So, Morning goes on. I,

359
00:19:15.549 --> 00:19:17.609
you know, feed the animals as I always do have

360
00:19:17.630 --> 00:19:20.369
my coffee, go downstairs and feed our foster kittens that

361
00:19:20.390 --> 00:19:21.869
we have that we're taking care of for the local

362
00:19:21.890 --> 00:19:24.279
shelter and then go to take the dog out for

363
00:19:24.299 --> 00:19:26.440
a run. And so I do live in a rural

364
00:19:26.539 --> 00:19:29.640
area and it's very hilly. And this is, this dog

365
00:19:29.700 --> 00:19:32.920
is why I got into trail running, which I'm grateful for.

366
00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:36.349
But so we go out most mornings and I was

367
00:19:36.410 --> 00:19:39.569
running and, you know, I got hit a toe grabber,

368
00:19:39.589 --> 00:19:42.140
the rock sticking up, just caught my toe. And I

369
00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:46.130
flew and I, you know, slid on the rocky ground

370
00:19:46.789 --> 00:19:49.970
into a cactus. Into a cactus, which is a very.

371
00:19:50.049 --> 00:19:53.710
New Mexico experience and so you should know people picturing

372
00:19:53.910 --> 00:19:57.359
cactuses in New Mexico it's not Arizona Arizona has the

373
00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:00.539
saguaro cactuses which are the big tall ones we have

374
00:20:00.619 --> 00:20:04.380
little very short cactuses that are like all over the

375
00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:09.160
ground um with with like little prickers in them that

376
00:20:09.180 --> 00:20:13.829
are as dense as sewing needles. So that is how

377
00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:17.390
I started the day, but, and it's fine because I

378
00:20:17.410 --> 00:20:19.809
was able to, in that moment be like, okay, this

379
00:20:19.869 --> 00:20:22.230
is what's happening right now. I was okay. I mean, I, yes,

380
00:20:22.250 --> 00:20:24.430
I got scraped up and I did have to take

381
00:20:24.470 --> 00:20:27.690
care of some cactus prickers, but, um, the day went on,

382
00:20:27.930 --> 00:20:31.690
you know, and I, the day went on. And that

383
00:20:31.730 --> 00:20:33.490
was actually one of the things that I was thinking

384
00:20:33.539 --> 00:20:35.619
about this morning when I was, I had mentioned, I

385
00:20:35.660 --> 00:20:38.960
was reflecting on like how life is and writing or

386
00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:41.740
like trail running. And I was looking down at these like,

387
00:20:42.220 --> 00:20:45.559
you know, great, you know, trail rash scars that I, or,

388
00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:49.809
you know, marks that I have from that fall. And

389
00:20:49.869 --> 00:20:51.930
along with some other like small scars that I have

390
00:20:51.950 --> 00:20:54.369
from other falls, because it's inevitable when you're doing this,

391
00:20:54.430 --> 00:20:57.349
that you've got, you're going to fall sometimes again. Hello life.

392
00:20:57.910 --> 00:20:59.069
Right. That.

393
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:03.779
I think there's a lot of writing that leaves, you know,

394
00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:06.920
like you get, you get beat up in this. If

395
00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:09.660
you want to be a professional writer, like if that's

396
00:21:09.740 --> 00:21:11.589
how you want to make your money and you're living,

397
00:21:11.619 --> 00:21:13.430
at least doing what I do, the books and the

398
00:21:13.470 --> 00:21:17.990
stuff you're going to get trail rash, you're going to

399
00:21:18.089 --> 00:21:21.329
fall a lot. I mean, it's going to be like,

400
00:21:22.509 --> 00:21:25.430
you can just count on it because it's the rejections.

401
00:21:25.720 --> 00:21:28.799
It's the, the job you really want. And they decided

402
00:21:28.819 --> 00:21:32.200
to go with somebody else. It's the, you know, the

403
00:21:32.269 --> 00:21:34.769
feedback and the rewrites and the, you know, like you,

404
00:21:35.250 --> 00:21:39.069
most of the work is not like, you know, child

405
00:21:39.089 --> 00:21:41.950
of the eighties again, murder. She wrote, I loved the

406
00:21:42.029 --> 00:21:44.970
opening of murder. She wrote because Jessica Fletcher would just

407
00:21:45.009 --> 00:21:49.700
like tap away on her typewriter flinging out ages, you know?

408
00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:51.759
And I thought that's what it's, that's what it's like

409
00:21:51.799 --> 00:21:53.059
to write books, you know?

410
00:21:54.210 --> 00:21:55.500
And it's not that way.

411
00:21:55.619 --> 00:21:59.119
It's not that way. I have some typewriters. I have

412
00:21:59.140 --> 00:22:02.740
a collection, a small collection too of old typewriters. Cause

413
00:22:02.779 --> 00:22:06.619
I just love that, you know, analog tactile, tactile interaction.

414
00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:09.349
And I blame Jessica, Jessica Fletcher. Do you have one?

415
00:22:09.630 --> 00:22:11.390
I have, I just have a picture of one up there,

416
00:22:11.430 --> 00:22:14.690
but yeah. Yeah, they are. They are beautiful.

417
00:22:15.130 --> 00:22:18.470
Yeah. But it's not like most of rating is not

418
00:22:18.509 --> 00:22:20.910
like that. You do get in flow. You do, you

419
00:22:20.950 --> 00:22:24.720
do like, you know, have these moments where you're like, oh,

420
00:22:24.940 --> 00:22:27.019
I really like how that came out and it feels

421
00:22:27.059 --> 00:22:30.240
really good. They can also be closely followed by an

422
00:22:30.299 --> 00:22:31.809
editor being like, I don't really like that. I don't

423
00:22:31.829 --> 00:22:34.269
think it's working and just cut it, you know, and

424
00:22:34.309 --> 00:22:37.690
you have to, you have to be okay with that

425
00:22:37.769 --> 00:22:39.829
if you're going to stick around and do this work.

426
00:22:39.890 --> 00:22:41.970
So you've got to like kind of have this balance

427
00:22:42.009 --> 00:22:44.559
of being really attached to it and really caring enough

428
00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:46.960
to do your best, but then being able to just

429
00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:49.160
let it go and move on to the next thing,

430
00:22:49.539 --> 00:22:52.259
you know, to the next draft, to the next, project

431
00:22:52.339 --> 00:22:54.599
to the next whatever. So.

432
00:22:56.019 --> 00:22:56.619
Well, you've gotten.

433
00:22:56.660 --> 00:22:57.900
It's not for the faint of heart.

434
00:22:58.539 --> 00:23:01.460
No, no, you've got, and you get, you get beat up.

435
00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:03.579
I mean, you just, it's just, it's just part of it.

436
00:23:04.019 --> 00:23:04.640
Yeah.

437
00:23:04.660 --> 00:23:08.690
And you know, it makes me honestly curious because you,

438
00:23:09.650 --> 00:23:12.609
some time has passed since the first publishing or the

439
00:23:12.650 --> 00:23:18.309
first published book. And I'm honestly curious what you think

440
00:23:19.289 --> 00:23:22.539
that version of you would be most surprised by. or

441
00:23:22.900 --> 00:23:27.759
relieved about or challenged by? Thinking back to you that

442
00:23:27.799 --> 00:23:31.589
published that book at 23 and you now, what would

443
00:23:31.700 --> 00:23:36.250
she be most surprised by that you've learned over the

444
00:23:36.309 --> 00:23:36.930
course of time?

445
00:23:38.950 --> 00:23:41.589
I'm going to guess, and this is something I shared

446
00:23:41.609 --> 00:23:44.710
with you before, is that idea, and I'm sorry, but

447
00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:47.160
I'm going to, again, I'm sorry this comes from trail running.

448
00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:50.119
I'm really not obsessed with trail running, although My kids

449
00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:51.740
think that I am, my family thinks I am.

450
00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:54.619
So I can't imagine why it's only come up 17

451
00:23:54.619 --> 00:23:56.200
times in the conversation we've had.

452
00:23:57.299 --> 00:23:59.640
My mind is kind of lately on this, you know,

453
00:23:59.660 --> 00:24:02.720
and as, as a writer, I will like work an analogy.

454
00:24:02.940 --> 00:24:04.579
So my, it's just kind of like, my mind is

455
00:24:04.619 --> 00:24:06.619
just going there right now, but there's the saying that

456
00:24:07.380 --> 00:24:10.119
it doesn't, it doesn't get easier. You just get better

457
00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:16.609
at it. So I thought 23 year old me thought

458
00:24:16.680 --> 00:24:21.779
it would get easier. You reach a point where people

459
00:24:21.910 --> 00:24:24.640
know your work and they just hire you. You get

460
00:24:24.700 --> 00:24:28.079
so good at it, you don't get that many edits.

461
00:24:28.539 --> 00:24:32.539
That it just gets easier. Or that it gets easier

462
00:24:32.660 --> 00:24:37.960
to get critiqued. It gets easier to get rejected or whatever.

463
00:24:38.940 --> 00:24:41.609
And I would say it doesn't. I don't think it

464
00:24:41.650 --> 00:24:43.970
does at all. That's my take on it. Maybe some

465
00:24:44.009 --> 00:24:49.839
people do feel it gets easier. However, my capacity to

466
00:24:51.019 --> 00:24:54.289
receive that as part of the world that I've chosen

467
00:24:54.369 --> 00:25:00.009
to be in and work in has grown along with

468
00:25:00.049 --> 00:25:03.730
my skills, along with my appreciation. So, I mean, I

469
00:25:03.750 --> 00:25:06.990
think it would be disingenuous to say it hasn't gotten

470
00:25:07.150 --> 00:25:12.460
any easier, like because there are things like once you've

471
00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:16.009
done a certain amount of, Once you've actually even worked

472
00:25:16.049 --> 00:25:18.210
in publishing, it's extremely helpful for me that I've worked

473
00:25:18.250 --> 00:25:20.430
on the editorial side because I know the production process.

474
00:25:20.490 --> 00:25:24.410
I know how things go. But once you've done a

475
00:25:24.470 --> 00:25:27.029
certain number of them, you've been through the copy edits,

476
00:25:27.069 --> 00:25:30.140
you know, you know kind of how it goes. Just

477
00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:34.119
having that awareness and expectation that you can set does

478
00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:37.019
make it easier. Like starting a new book is always hard.

479
00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:41.319
You never just start and dive in and just Jessica Fletcher,

480
00:25:41.339 --> 00:25:47.140
you know, and then we're done. Um, there is a,

481
00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:49.890
there is more easefulness, I think, around the acceptance of

482
00:25:49.950 --> 00:25:54.670
how hard it is. Yeah. And an appreciation that I,

483
00:25:54.789 --> 00:25:59.289
to me, is worth the work. Because I do think,

484
00:25:59.910 --> 00:26:02.259
I feel like, yes, I can say, I could pull

485
00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:04.400
out my work. And I think that this is just like,

486
00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:08.029
everybody would agree, I'm a better writer now than I

487
00:26:08.329 --> 00:26:11.349
was in the past and thank God because I work

488
00:26:11.369 --> 00:26:13.970
really hard at it. I'm always, you know, there are

489
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:17.720
always people for me to learn from always. There always

490
00:26:17.799 --> 00:26:20.400
will be. And that's like something that I love about

491
00:26:20.460 --> 00:26:23.940
this work is I will never be as good as

492
00:26:24.019 --> 00:26:27.059
I could be. And I think that's a frustrating idea

493
00:26:27.079 --> 00:26:30.680
for some people. And then there are people like me

494
00:26:30.819 --> 00:26:35.529
who I find that amazing. I find that engaging. I

495
00:26:35.589 --> 00:26:38.440
find it because I'm going to want to be with

496
00:26:38.579 --> 00:26:41.940
this thing for my whole career, if I can, you know?

497
00:26:42.140 --> 00:26:45.819
So I love the idea that I'll never, I call

498
00:26:45.859 --> 00:26:48.019
it like the mountain with no summit that I'll always

499
00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:50.240
be on the mountain somewhere and I'll be higher at

500
00:26:50.579 --> 00:26:53.940
different points, you know, but I'll never, there's never, there's

501
00:26:53.980 --> 00:26:56.420
no point where I'm like, now I'm, now I'm the

502
00:26:56.460 --> 00:27:00.599
best writer I could ever be, you know? So yeah.

503
00:27:01.099 --> 00:27:05.440
That's a lot of real life Advice to like a

504
00:27:05.480 --> 00:27:08.400
beyond writing that, you know, you're on the mountain and

505
00:27:08.420 --> 00:27:11.099
you should appreciate the view, right? Like you, you, you

506
00:27:11.140 --> 00:27:13.759
can stop and appreciate the view, regardless of whether you've

507
00:27:13.799 --> 00:27:17.039
reached the so-called summit, you stop and appreciate, like, look

508
00:27:17.059 --> 00:27:19.650
around and say, Hey, this is pretty cool. Like I, I,

509
00:27:19.720 --> 00:27:21.609
and we've learned a lot and look how far we came.

510
00:27:22.140 --> 00:27:25.029
And you look down and you're like, wow, that's impressive. Right?

511
00:27:25.069 --> 00:27:28.170
Like that's, we are 23 year old Kelly and now

512
00:27:28.210 --> 00:27:30.809
we are New York times bestselling Kelly. Like that's really,

513
00:27:30.890 --> 00:27:31.809
that's really, you.

514
00:27:31.769 --> 00:27:33.859
Know, and I think that there is amount of, you

515
00:27:33.890 --> 00:27:36.579
have to stop periodically and just feel grateful for being

516
00:27:36.619 --> 00:27:38.259
able to be out there. You know, I was telling

517
00:27:38.299 --> 00:27:41.160
you before we started recording when I was going off

518
00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:43.359
to college, my dad's advice to me was to go,

519
00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:45.519
like I was going to be an English major. And

520
00:27:45.539 --> 00:27:47.220
we all know, like there's the whole joke about how

521
00:27:47.269 --> 00:27:50.200
well English majors do in the world. And he said,

522
00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:52.759
get your teaching certificate because, you know, it's really hard.

523
00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:54.799
Not many people actually make it as a writer. And

524
00:27:54.819 --> 00:27:58.440
that's actually not wrong. You know, it's not bad advice.

525
00:27:58.460 --> 00:28:00.700
I was mad at him for a long time and thought,

526
00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:03.740
you don't believe in me and all this stuff. And

527
00:28:04.099 --> 00:28:06.279
now I don't think that's true. And my dad's just

528
00:28:06.299 --> 00:28:09.480
very pragmatic and he wanted me to be okay, you know,

529
00:28:09.529 --> 00:28:12.730
and have a fallback and all that stuff. And again,

530
00:28:12.809 --> 00:28:19.069
he wasn't wrong. But I think it's like, And some

531
00:28:19.109 --> 00:28:22.049
of that has also contributed to me, you know, looking

532
00:28:22.109 --> 00:28:25.849
around and saying, I'm living my dream in a lot

533
00:28:25.869 --> 00:28:30.519
of ways. Even on the days where I'm not getting

534
00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:33.240
emails that we got in the New York Times. I'm

535
00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:36.720
getting the email that says the author decided to go

536
00:28:36.759 --> 00:28:39.579
with someone else or, you know, something along those lines.

537
00:28:43.079 --> 00:28:46.750
It's still, it's all the dream. You know, I think

538
00:28:46.789 --> 00:28:49.470
that's the thing that's changed is I don't think of

539
00:28:49.539 --> 00:28:56.240
the dream anymore as just the peak moments. I appreciate

540
00:28:56.319 --> 00:29:01.640
now the fact that I can get feedback and be like, okay,

541
00:29:02.299 --> 00:29:03.690
what do we need to change? We're going to change it,

542
00:29:03.740 --> 00:29:05.529
you know, without getting hung up on it or taking

543
00:29:05.569 --> 00:29:08.690
it personally or whatever. And knowing that even people at

544
00:29:08.730 --> 00:29:13.950
the very top of their craft still get notes. We

545
00:29:13.990 --> 00:29:17.740
all still get notes. And thank God, you know, thank God,

546
00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:19.779
because that's how we get better. And that's how we

547
00:29:19.799 --> 00:29:20.720
practice and all that.

548
00:29:21.799 --> 00:29:24.740
That was my kind of next way of thought, because I,

549
00:29:25.630 --> 00:29:28.630
you said, you know, this, this powerful thing, which is

550
00:29:28.730 --> 00:29:32.170
true in, in writing and in life, which is that

551
00:29:32.210 --> 00:29:34.789
we do get better with practice. And I keep going

552
00:29:34.849 --> 00:29:36.529
back to the, you know, we train to the point

553
00:29:36.549 --> 00:29:41.799
where things feel inevitable, but what, what, you like, practically speaking,

554
00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:44.880
what do you do? Like you said, you've become a

555
00:29:44.900 --> 00:29:48.259
better writer. What are some like peek behind the curtain

556
00:29:48.539 --> 00:29:52.509
for us and explain what that looks like? How do

557
00:29:52.569 --> 00:29:55.509
you practice? How do you work on that climb as

558
00:29:55.569 --> 00:29:59.009
a writer? And how do you emerge at some point,

559
00:29:59.029 --> 00:30:00.650
a better writer?

560
00:30:01.309 --> 00:30:05.569
Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I think it's many things.

561
00:30:07.230 --> 00:30:10.210
I think it's, at its most basic level, it's the

562
00:30:10.269 --> 00:30:14.619
showing up, continue to show up. I think it's like, um,

563
00:30:15.539 --> 00:30:16.940
I kind of look at it like I have a

564
00:30:16.980 --> 00:30:25.910
relationship with writing. Um, and it's like, I kind of

565
00:30:25.930 --> 00:30:28.089
view it in a similar way as I view my

566
00:30:28.150 --> 00:30:31.279
marriage because I'm in a very committed marriage too, where

567
00:30:31.319 --> 00:30:34.099
it's like, well, we're going to be here for a while.

568
00:30:34.980 --> 00:30:38.640
So how, you know, like let's lean in, you know,

569
00:30:38.680 --> 00:30:42.140
let's lean in. And I've, you know, and again, life lessons,

570
00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:46.460
it's like, I am a much better partner than I

571
00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:48.650
would have. And you can ask my exes. I'm a

572
00:30:48.750 --> 00:30:53.029
much better partner to my wife. And now than when

573
00:30:53.049 --> 00:30:55.549
we first got married and then, than I would have

574
00:30:55.569 --> 00:30:58.940
been to anybody in the past because I've leaned, I've,

575
00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:02.720
I've made a conscious effort to develop right skills and

576
00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:07.339
show up, et cetera. And I think, so I think

577
00:31:07.400 --> 00:31:09.079
it's like the showing up. I think it's making the

578
00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:13.130
commitment on a fundamental level. And then on a skills level,

579
00:31:13.309 --> 00:31:15.829
you know, like I have a stack of writing books here.

580
00:31:15.869 --> 00:31:18.230
I still have, I'm just, I, for fun, I'll go

581
00:31:18.269 --> 00:31:20.970
back and read Strunk and White's Elements of Style. You know,

582
00:31:20.990 --> 00:31:24.140
like this is fun for me. I have my, my,

583
00:31:24.420 --> 00:31:26.019
my wife makes fun of me when I buy more

584
00:31:26.660 --> 00:31:29.640
books about writing. Cause she's like, don't you know the

585
00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:32.839
stuff now? Like you're, you know, how to write, like,

586
00:31:32.859 --> 00:31:34.720
how do you need more books about writing? And I

587
00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:38.059
love reading about writers reading about writing. Cause I just

588
00:31:38.119 --> 00:31:40.789
love it. I love to hear what they're doing because

589
00:31:40.829 --> 00:31:42.589
we are all different. We all, you know, there are

590
00:31:42.630 --> 00:31:45.390
similarities among many of us, but we approach things differently.

591
00:31:45.410 --> 00:31:47.910
I love to hear, you know, how they solve problems

592
00:31:48.250 --> 00:31:50.170
with that. You know, we all struggle that reassurance that

593
00:31:50.190 --> 00:31:53.400
we all still struggle. even people who are way better

594
00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:59.200
than I am. And there's always more to learn. So

595
00:31:59.259 --> 00:32:06.049
it's the fundamentals. It really is playing around with punctuation

596
00:32:06.430 --> 00:32:10.910
at its very granular level, at its most granular level.

597
00:32:11.450 --> 00:32:15.970
But then it's also challenging myself to go back Because

598
00:32:15.990 --> 00:32:18.190
you write and then you rewrite and you edit. And

599
00:32:18.210 --> 00:32:20.150
that's a huge thing that we often don't really talk

600
00:32:20.210 --> 00:32:26.799
about is writing because writing is rewriting. So going back

601
00:32:26.859 --> 00:32:30.140
and saying, you know, like, I like that sentence. I

602
00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:33.240
think it could be better. Or I use this device

603
00:32:33.279 --> 00:32:35.799
and I think it works. But let me try something

604
00:32:35.819 --> 00:32:39.190
that's a little bit different that I don't know if

605
00:32:39.250 --> 00:32:42.269
it's going to work. You know, and running that stuff

606
00:32:42.289 --> 00:32:46.400
to ground and just, again, trying it and seeing... what

607
00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:50.700
comes of it. So, um, yeah, I mean, it's just

608
00:32:50.779 --> 00:32:56.660
a lot of trying, trying, trying and, you know, hopefully learning, learning, learning.

609
00:32:58.069 --> 00:33:03.970
And you like, you said something that stuck with me

610
00:33:04.089 --> 00:33:06.890
that I kind of did a bad job filing, which

611
00:33:06.930 --> 00:33:10.349
was essentially like you, you need to have an open

612
00:33:10.390 --> 00:33:14.730
mind with yourself and give yourself the grace to work

613
00:33:14.950 --> 00:33:17.210
kind of with yourself. And it's almost like you said,

614
00:33:17.250 --> 00:33:19.349
it's like a relationship with your spouse, but it's also

615
00:33:19.390 --> 00:33:22.140
a little bit like a relationship with you and understanding

616
00:33:22.180 --> 00:33:25.759
that you, you know, have room to grow or room

617
00:33:25.799 --> 00:33:29.160
to improve and just being okay with that. Like, and

618
00:33:29.180 --> 00:33:32.200
that's sometimes that's not easy for people. Like, I think

619
00:33:32.220 --> 00:33:35.940
there's people that, that kind of struggle with like, working

620
00:33:36.019 --> 00:33:38.859
on themselves because heaven forbid, we look in the mirror

621
00:33:39.019 --> 00:33:41.640
and it's sometimes that's the most powerful and important thing

622
00:33:41.700 --> 00:33:47.740
to do. So you are a resource of knowledge on

623
00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:49.779
all of this stuff. Like you read all these books,

624
00:33:50.079 --> 00:33:53.279
you are hungry for the, for the bigger and the

625
00:33:53.319 --> 00:33:57.829
more and the improvement in your writing. So my question

626
00:33:58.140 --> 00:34:02.349
to that is for everybody that hasn't had that same

627
00:34:02.390 --> 00:34:05.789
hunger for whatever reason, What would your, like, what are some,

628
00:34:06.029 --> 00:34:07.599
cause you've read a lot and you have a lot

629
00:34:07.640 --> 00:34:09.539
of experience and a lot of wisdom. So what are

630
00:34:09.559 --> 00:34:12.159
some of the, like one or two of the, like

631
00:34:12.219 --> 00:34:16.460
the most prominent threads or like the good place to

632
00:34:16.599 --> 00:34:19.699
start for people? Cause these, these, this, this knowledge that

633
00:34:19.719 --> 00:34:24.889
you've acquired is valuable. And I'm curious for writers, what

634
00:34:25.030 --> 00:34:28.250
are the common themes or like the one thing or

635
00:34:28.289 --> 00:34:30.610
two things that really stand out in all of the

636
00:34:30.670 --> 00:34:32.289
reading and all of the research that you've done?

637
00:34:32.860 --> 00:34:36.010
Yeah. And I will say before I dive into that,

638
00:34:36.070 --> 00:34:38.329
because you just mentioned this, that is another thing is

639
00:34:38.389 --> 00:34:40.050
read a lot. You have to read a lot in

640
00:34:40.070 --> 00:34:42.809
your genre. I talk to writers all the time. I

641
00:34:43.389 --> 00:34:46.090
want to write a memoir. They've never even read a memoir,

642
00:34:46.659 --> 00:34:48.289
you know? So I would say, and I get it.

643
00:34:48.400 --> 00:34:51.820
It's like, those things can be de-linked, but I'd say

644
00:34:52.019 --> 00:34:54.039
read in your genre, read where you want to write,

645
00:34:54.099 --> 00:34:56.199
see what other people doing, see what works, read other

646
00:34:56.219 --> 00:34:58.920
New York times bestsellers. And I will say, you know, like,

647
00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:01.949
Not every New York Times bestseller is a way that

648
00:35:02.030 --> 00:35:04.090
I want to write. It's not authentic to me. It's not,

649
00:35:04.329 --> 00:35:09.650
you know, whatever. Just read in your genre. I will

650
00:35:10.130 --> 00:35:14.260
say the thing that countless, countless, countless books and other writers,

651
00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:17.239
et cetera, and editors say over and over, which it's

652
00:35:17.300 --> 00:35:19.719
the most common thing that I write. It's the most

653
00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:23.260
common thing that I hear from other people, which is

654
00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:26.679
the biggest stumbling block for people is telling instead of

655
00:35:26.739 --> 00:35:32.090
showing in their writing. So, we've most people who've written

656
00:35:32.110 --> 00:35:36.079
have heard that adage at some point show don't tell

657
00:35:36.599 --> 00:35:39.440
but when it comes to actually applying it they're not

658
00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:42.119
really sure exactly kind of maybe they have a vague

659
00:35:42.139 --> 00:35:44.420
understanding of what it means like oh use more description

660
00:35:44.559 --> 00:35:47.659
use more adjectives whatever and you know yeah that's a

661
00:35:47.719 --> 00:35:50.179
small piece of it but it's really based on this

662
00:35:50.300 --> 00:35:55.269
idea that what's happening isn't coming alive for the reader

663
00:35:55.389 --> 00:35:59.460
i just gave this advice to somebody who's um I'm

664
00:35:59.480 --> 00:36:01.489
doing some page reading for him for a memoir he's

665
00:36:01.530 --> 00:36:06.090
working on. And, you know, it was the facts were

666
00:36:06.130 --> 00:36:10.449
there in this chapter. There was a journey in the chapter,

667
00:36:10.469 --> 00:36:15.159
but the journey was a journey of facts. And what

668
00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:18.960
I walked away with was I knew what happened, but

669
00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:21.699
I didn't know how he lived it. I didn't know

670
00:36:21.739 --> 00:36:25.760
how it affected him. I wasn't feeling it. I knew

671
00:36:25.820 --> 00:36:28.929
from what he said that he was he was angry.

672
00:36:29.559 --> 00:36:33.179
It was traumatic. But how can you show me that

673
00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:40.320
without saying it? And so to do that, you want

674
00:36:40.380 --> 00:36:44.139
the reader to feel it with you because the impact

675
00:36:44.219 --> 00:36:48.500
that that has is, it's not just not as engaging

676
00:36:48.820 --> 00:36:51.500
from a standpoint that the writing comes across as a

677
00:36:51.519 --> 00:36:55.079
little flat. That's true. But it is literally not as

678
00:36:55.159 --> 00:37:00.349
engaging because it doesn't bring the writer So if you

679
00:37:00.590 --> 00:37:02.929
if you've read, if you like to read, even if

680
00:37:02.949 --> 00:37:04.550
you like to, you know, whether that's on the page

681
00:37:04.570 --> 00:37:07.210
or listening to audio books, when you when you come

682
00:37:07.250 --> 00:37:10.920
across something that's really engaging, you are kind of leaning in.

683
00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:14.880
You're like, what happened? You know, even in kind of

684
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:17.739
straight up nonfiction, if you look at the one of

685
00:37:17.780 --> 00:37:19.829
the writers names that I hear most often, I want

686
00:37:19.849 --> 00:37:24.650
to write like Malcolm Gladwell. What's compelling about Malcolm Gladwell? Well,

687
00:37:24.710 --> 00:37:28.650
he has these rich descriptions and stories. Yes, he's got

688
00:37:28.670 --> 00:37:31.750
these really interesting theories and ways of connecting things, but

689
00:37:31.809 --> 00:37:34.639
he tells it all to you through story or most

690
00:37:34.699 --> 00:37:37.719
of it. And he's very good at bringing those stories alive.

691
00:37:37.780 --> 00:37:40.960
When he interviews people, he doesn't just say he sat

692
00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:44.519
there in the chair and he was wearing this. It's

693
00:37:44.659 --> 00:37:48.320
so deeply descriptive that you are in that office with him.

694
00:37:48.949 --> 00:37:51.389
You're in his chair, you're seeing what he's seeing. And

695
00:37:51.469 --> 00:37:55.480
that's showing. And it does, it has that effect of

696
00:37:55.519 --> 00:37:57.960
it really brings the reader in. And when it, that

697
00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:04.159
doesn't happen, it's distancing, especially for something like memoir. But

698
00:38:04.380 --> 00:38:06.420
anytime you're really trying to engage the reader, like if

699
00:38:06.460 --> 00:38:09.449
you're writing a sub stack post, a lot of people

700
00:38:09.489 --> 00:38:13.369
know story is a great device to bring people in. Um,

701
00:38:13.670 --> 00:38:16.650
but then how they tell that story, you know, like

702
00:38:16.670 --> 00:38:18.889
I gotta, I gotta know what happens. I used to

703
00:38:18.909 --> 00:38:21.940
have a newsletter years ago and I kind of let

704
00:38:21.980 --> 00:38:23.519
it go just because I got so busy with other

705
00:38:23.579 --> 00:38:25.940
work and I wasn't and all these people were coming

706
00:38:25.960 --> 00:38:27.639
out with newsletters and I was just like ah is

707
00:38:27.679 --> 00:38:29.510
the space too crowded does anybody have time for this

708
00:38:29.570 --> 00:38:31.250
or care so I'm just going to focus on work

709
00:38:32.050 --> 00:38:35.429
but in the newsletter one week I told this story

710
00:38:35.570 --> 00:38:40.760
about this um dresser so like my wife and I

711
00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:42.800
needed a dresser we had just moved down here to

712
00:38:42.860 --> 00:38:46.739
New Mexico and And we had this like nice sized

713
00:38:47.059 --> 00:38:49.320
bedroom and we didn't have a dresser from the east.

714
00:38:49.340 --> 00:38:50.750
We didn't bring one from the east coast. And so

715
00:38:51.130 --> 00:38:52.590
we're looking and we don't have a lot of money

716
00:38:52.610 --> 00:38:54.510
because we have a new baby. Our second baby has

717
00:38:54.550 --> 00:38:56.570
just come and we're like, what can we find? And

718
00:38:56.610 --> 00:38:58.829
so we see it on Craigslist and there's a guy locally.

719
00:38:58.849 --> 00:39:03.289
And so we go over and he's in this like

720
00:39:04.070 --> 00:39:07.260
really tiny, tiny space. And there's this little girl sitting there.

721
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:09.699
She's my older daughter's age. And as it turns out,

722
00:39:09.719 --> 00:39:11.920
they end up dancing together, these two. So It's a

723
00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:13.440
small town. Everybody's going to end up, you're going to

724
00:39:13.460 --> 00:39:15.579
end up knowing these people at some point if you

725
00:39:15.619 --> 00:39:18.039
don't know. But there's this little girl sitting there and

726
00:39:18.059 --> 00:39:23.570
she looks really sad. And she's kind of like, I

727
00:39:23.610 --> 00:39:25.210
think she was, I don't know if she was on

728
00:39:25.250 --> 00:39:27.130
a tablet or she was doing something or if she

729
00:39:27.150 --> 00:39:30.269
was looking at a book. But he's he's friendly and

730
00:39:30.309 --> 00:39:33.610
he's like, here's the dresser, whatever. And it was beautiful dresser.

731
00:39:33.630 --> 00:39:38.329
And he mentions that he, you know, like he needs

732
00:39:38.449 --> 00:39:40.849
to sell it because he basically just, he's like, I'll

733
00:39:40.869 --> 00:39:42.150
give you a great price. I need to sell it

734
00:39:42.170 --> 00:39:44.969
because he needs the money. Well, come to find out,

735
00:39:45.150 --> 00:39:46.949
you know, he had just split up with the little

736
00:39:46.969 --> 00:39:49.760
girl's mom. And then I realized again, small town. Oh

737
00:39:49.780 --> 00:39:52.260
my God, I know who that is. It's this, you know,

738
00:39:53.260 --> 00:39:56.309
so I'm like, I know this, you know, I'm like,

739
00:39:56.369 --> 00:39:59.010
I feel like I'm in the story. And he's clearly

740
00:39:59.250 --> 00:40:04.570
just in a bad emotional place. And he's got this

741
00:40:04.610 --> 00:40:07.070
little girl to care for. And I know I have

742
00:40:07.130 --> 00:40:10.239
a girl, a little girl, the same age. And I

743
00:40:10.380 --> 00:40:13.980
know like how hard it is when you're struggling. And

744
00:40:14.039 --> 00:40:16.159
then you also have to care for this little one.

745
00:40:17.019 --> 00:40:18.940
So he's, he, we load the thing up and he,

746
00:40:19.159 --> 00:40:23.820
we bring it in. And he leaves, you know, we

747
00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:26.340
pay him and he leaves. And I just feel like,

748
00:40:28.420 --> 00:40:30.119
what should I do? I just put the, I just,

749
00:40:30.500 --> 00:40:33.449
I'm carrying this in my heart. And I think I said,

750
00:40:33.889 --> 00:40:36.250
what should I do? Like, and I'm addressing this to Gus,

751
00:40:36.369 --> 00:40:40.949
like openly. And it's like, reach out, like reach out.

752
00:40:41.289 --> 00:40:44.269
And I'm like, I don't know this person. I just

753
00:40:44.309 --> 00:40:46.820
met this person. They're like, well, you asked what you

754
00:40:46.840 --> 00:40:49.929
could do. So I had his number. So I texted

755
00:40:49.969 --> 00:40:54.119
him and I said, Hey, this might sound really weird

756
00:40:54.440 --> 00:40:56.820
because we don't know each other, but I just want

757
00:40:56.840 --> 00:41:00.400
to tell you, it seems like things are really hard

758
00:41:00.420 --> 00:41:02.980
right now. You know, like from, that's what it looks

759
00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:06.280
like to me. And I get that. And I deeply

760
00:41:06.320 --> 00:41:10.900
believe everything's going to be okay. I really do. And,

761
00:41:11.380 --> 00:41:16.639
you know, I care about what happens to you. And

762
00:41:17.099 --> 00:41:18.920
Not long later, I mean, I want to say within

763
00:41:18.920 --> 00:41:22.800
30 minutes, he wrote back and it was something like, wow, like,

764
00:41:22.860 --> 00:41:27.340
thank you so much. That's incredible. Thank you. And so

765
00:41:28.030 --> 00:41:31.409
I tell this story and it's but that's part one.

766
00:41:32.250 --> 00:41:33.789
And then I leave it at like, but that's not

767
00:41:33.809 --> 00:41:37.849
the last time I see him. Right. So this the

768
00:41:37.949 --> 00:41:39.869
there's a there's a message here and I go in

769
00:41:39.909 --> 00:41:42.469
to talk about some, you know, like more pragmatic stuff

770
00:41:42.510 --> 00:41:45.380
in life stuff. but I get all these emails back

771
00:41:45.480 --> 00:41:48.039
where I never do for my newsletter. Sometimes people are like, Oh,

772
00:41:48.059 --> 00:41:50.599
I really liked it. And they're like, I have to

773
00:41:50.639 --> 00:41:53.940
know what happened to him. I have to know.

774
00:41:54.219 --> 00:41:55.539
But is he okay?

775
00:41:55.659 --> 00:41:58.480
Is he okay? Well, yeah, just to let, I'm not

776
00:41:58.500 --> 00:42:01.179
going to tell you now, just to say long story short,

777
00:42:01.199 --> 00:42:03.769
it ends up the next time I see him, he's

778
00:42:03.789 --> 00:42:06.230
got a job in town, like a good job with

779
00:42:06.309 --> 00:42:09.829
benefits and he's smiling and he's beaming and he's like, Hey,

780
00:42:09.889 --> 00:42:13.199
it's you. He's like, hi Kelly. You know, like, you know,

781
00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:15.480
thank you so much. And I give him a hug

782
00:42:15.539 --> 00:42:17.539
and I'm just like, you know, hang in there, man.

783
00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:19.079
You know, it's not always going to be easy. It's

784
00:42:19.099 --> 00:42:22.179
not always going to be hard. And we didn't go

785
00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:24.480
on to become like deep friends or anything. I think

786
00:42:24.519 --> 00:42:27.719
he did eventually end up kind of moving on from town.

787
00:42:27.780 --> 00:42:33.199
But but it was like it was so human. And

788
00:42:33.820 --> 00:42:36.760
if you but if I just said I went and

789
00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:40.130
got the dresser then I was thinking he probably did.

790
00:42:40.230 --> 00:42:43.090
And then I texted him. It wouldn't have landed in

791
00:42:43.230 --> 00:42:45.789
nearly the same way as if I had been able

792
00:42:45.829 --> 00:42:48.489
to like bring people with me in those moments where

793
00:42:48.530 --> 00:42:50.369
they're just like, I have to know what happened to

794
00:42:50.409 --> 00:42:55.840
this guy, you know? Like, and so I think it's like, it's,

795
00:42:56.030 --> 00:42:59.320
and I included dialogue, you know, instead of saying he

796
00:42:59.360 --> 00:43:02.079
said this, I said that I included some of the

797
00:43:02.260 --> 00:43:05.610
actual dialogue. I mean, it's these little, things that are

798
00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:09.340
actually really big things that add up to the showing

799
00:43:09.380 --> 00:43:11.739
and telling, you know, like what was going on inside

800
00:43:11.800 --> 00:43:13.860
of you? What was I feeling in that moment? Like,

801
00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:15.880
I was so nervous texting him because I'm like, he's

802
00:43:15.900 --> 00:43:18.420
going to think I'm a crazy person, you know? So

803
00:43:18.460 --> 00:43:22.360
like giving everybody those details. Cause the other thing is that,

804
00:43:23.320 --> 00:43:25.489
you know, we're always telling stories in the rear view mirror,

805
00:43:25.949 --> 00:43:28.150
you know, we're applying our narrative in the rear view mirror.

806
00:43:28.210 --> 00:43:31.329
And so we, we know what happened. We know where

807
00:43:31.369 --> 00:43:34.889
we're going with it. Um, but the reader's reading it

808
00:43:34.909 --> 00:43:37.489
for the first time. So that, so the, the, as

809
00:43:37.530 --> 00:43:39.550
much as we can be, you know, in real time

810
00:43:39.610 --> 00:43:41.849
with them and take them along on where we were.

811
00:43:41.889 --> 00:43:44.610
And that's a lot of what I do when I'm

812
00:43:44.690 --> 00:43:49.170
writing for and with people. I'm like, you know, they, they,

813
00:43:49.449 --> 00:43:51.349
they get it after a while, they start telling me

814
00:43:51.389 --> 00:43:55.000
this stuff automatically, but the first X number of sessions

815
00:43:55.139 --> 00:43:58.699
are me going, okay, pause right there. What's happening in

816
00:43:58.739 --> 00:44:01.610
your body. What's happening in your mind. What was, what

817
00:44:01.659 --> 00:44:03.519
were you seeing around you? What color were those? And

818
00:44:03.539 --> 00:44:06.039
then we passed this beautiful field of wildflowers. What color

819
00:44:06.059 --> 00:44:08.360
were they? Do you know what any of them were?

820
00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:11.460
Like I'm getting all those details. And then when they

821
00:44:11.500 --> 00:44:14.960
get the, when they get the pages back, they're seeing

822
00:44:15.260 --> 00:44:18.940
all the details and they're kind of amazed. And I'm like, yeah,

823
00:44:18.960 --> 00:44:21.989
but that's that you just learned to, you just learned to,

824
00:44:22.269 --> 00:44:26.510
you know, work that stuff in and that becomes the showing.

825
00:44:26.949 --> 00:44:31.019
So I think that's like the lion's share of, of

826
00:44:31.260 --> 00:44:35.329
what we learn to do. When it comes to nonfiction books,

827
00:44:35.369 --> 00:44:39.250
and I've done a bunch of straightforward self-help. I've worked

828
00:44:39.269 --> 00:44:42.510
with professors and getting their theories into books and things.

829
00:44:42.530 --> 00:44:46.510
And there's a lot of structural. And hats off to dad.

830
00:44:46.550 --> 00:44:51.059
That's where a lot of my teaching background came in.

831
00:44:51.099 --> 00:44:53.340
I know how to build a progression in a class

832
00:44:53.400 --> 00:44:55.380
and all this other stuff. And I've actually ended up

833
00:44:55.420 --> 00:44:59.159
doing a lot of teaching in different capacities throughout my career,

834
00:44:59.179 --> 00:45:03.590
which is really fantastic. But so, you know, there are

835
00:45:03.610 --> 00:45:06.909
these very straightforward elements where structure and, you know, like

836
00:45:06.989 --> 00:45:09.469
all of these things that we build out. But that's

837
00:45:09.550 --> 00:45:12.820
really what makes stuff memorable. Like when I pick up

838
00:45:12.860 --> 00:45:17.039
a book and I read a line and I'm like, oh, man,

839
00:45:17.059 --> 00:45:20.179
I wish I'd written that. It's always a show. It's

840
00:45:20.300 --> 00:45:22.940
always a show line. You know, those are the ones

841
00:45:22.960 --> 00:45:25.280
that we remember and that really grab us and that

842
00:45:25.320 --> 00:45:28.380
make us feel like, oh, I was with that person

843
00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:31.469
in their story. It makes it feel like we know somebody.

844
00:45:33.739 --> 00:45:35.920
And you're part of the story then. Like you're actually

845
00:45:35.980 --> 00:45:39.559
legitimately like part, you become part of the story. And

846
00:45:39.900 --> 00:45:44.639
that is a gift that I actually, I knew you

847
00:45:44.679 --> 00:45:48.449
were going to go there because we're friends. And what

848
00:45:48.510 --> 00:45:51.710
I didn't expect was that my mind was firing off with,

849
00:45:52.809 --> 00:45:58.119
this isn't just writing. This is real for me. First

850
00:45:58.139 --> 00:46:00.099
of all, thank you for being a human and sending

851
00:46:00.119 --> 00:46:02.820
that text. Thank you for listening to Gus and sending

852
00:46:02.840 --> 00:46:04.780
that text because we need to do more of that.

853
00:46:04.860 --> 00:46:07.360
Send the text, make the call, check on the human.

854
00:46:07.900 --> 00:46:08.960
Thank you for that.

855
00:46:08.980 --> 00:46:11.429
I care about you. I care about what happens to you.

856
00:46:11.449 --> 00:46:12.409
You don't have to do it to a stranger.

857
00:46:12.429 --> 00:46:14.909
I mean, I mean, he was a stranger though. Like

858
00:46:14.929 --> 00:46:15.730
you were worried.

859
00:46:15.489 --> 00:46:17.530
About it being here. You can do it, you know,

860
00:46:17.570 --> 00:46:20.670
like just show, you can show care.

861
00:46:21.090 --> 00:46:21.789
You can show care.

862
00:46:22.269 --> 00:46:23.429
Yes. Eye contact.

863
00:46:23.929 --> 00:46:29.590
Yes. Thank you for that. And I was hearing this in,

864
00:46:29.710 --> 00:46:35.269
in a world that is driven toward creation more than

865
00:46:35.289 --> 00:46:37.739
we used to be. Like a lot of, a lot of,

866
00:46:37.750 --> 00:46:42.090
you know, CEOs, organizations, everybody, they're all trying to figure

867
00:46:42.130 --> 00:46:44.469
out how to tell better stories at the, at the,

868
00:46:44.570 --> 00:46:46.610
at the nut, at like the very basic level of

869
00:46:46.670 --> 00:46:49.550
trying to connect with an audience. You need to be

870
00:46:49.630 --> 00:46:51.719
able to tell better stories and you need to be

871
00:46:51.760 --> 00:46:56.010
able to show, not tell. And what's fascinating about everything

872
00:46:56.030 --> 00:47:00.579
you said was I was thinking differently about posts that

873
00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:03.159
I do on social media. I was thinking differently about

874
00:47:03.760 --> 00:47:06.739
videos that I share and edit. I was thinking differently

875
00:47:06.800 --> 00:47:11.679
about art and poetry that I create because of everything

876
00:47:11.699 --> 00:47:14.630
you just said. It wasn't just show, don't tell for writing.

877
00:47:14.690 --> 00:47:17.849
It was show, don't tell for life and for creating

878
00:47:18.010 --> 00:47:21.280
and for being a creator of something that And in

879
00:47:21.320 --> 00:47:25.949
this world where there's so much getting created and, you know,

880
00:47:25.989 --> 00:47:28.349
dare I go there with the slop stuff that we

881
00:47:28.409 --> 00:47:31.650
all know about, like that stuff's being created. We, it's

882
00:47:31.789 --> 00:47:34.690
so important. Like it's more important now than it ever

883
00:47:34.769 --> 00:47:37.489
has been for us to buckle up and figure out

884
00:47:37.570 --> 00:47:41.909
how to tell a story. Like you told a story

885
00:47:41.929 --> 00:47:44.409
about the bear and I was.

886
00:47:44.349 --> 00:47:45.869
Like, oh my gosh. What?

887
00:47:46.289 --> 00:47:48.710
And the pears, specifically the pears, and they were on

888
00:47:48.730 --> 00:47:51.789
the windowsill. And like your story at the beginning of

889
00:47:51.849 --> 00:47:55.969
our conversation brought to life exactly what you're just sharing.

890
00:47:56.369 --> 00:48:00.920
So the coolest thing is, friends, I think that there's

891
00:48:00.980 --> 00:48:03.579
a way that you can use some of this in

892
00:48:03.619 --> 00:48:07.559
your real life, whether it's from this podcast, this conversation,

893
00:48:08.099 --> 00:48:10.440
and or if you're curious and you want to learn

894
00:48:10.480 --> 00:48:12.260
more and you want to lean in and you want

895
00:48:12.280 --> 00:48:17.460
to become a better writer specifically, Kelly has a solution.

896
00:48:19.739 --> 00:48:23.860
She has a solution. She just so happens to have

897
00:48:23.900 --> 00:48:26.280
a solution. So I feel like we need to talk

898
00:48:26.340 --> 00:48:27.099
about it now.

899
00:48:27.179 --> 00:48:27.440
Yeah.

900
00:48:27.900 --> 00:48:28.179
Yeah.

901
00:48:28.639 --> 00:48:32.739
So, you know, one of the, the blessings of, I

902
00:48:32.860 --> 00:48:38.429
had this crazy thing that happens and it can, and it's, again,

903
00:48:38.889 --> 00:48:42.590
you know, it doesn't, it's part of the work, which is,

904
00:48:43.519 --> 00:48:46.300
a project that I'd spent a year working on at proposal.

905
00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:49.340
It was like inevitable that this thing was going to sell.

906
00:48:49.400 --> 00:48:52.469
It had a, it had like a celebrity attached to it,

907
00:48:52.519 --> 00:48:56.190
et cetera. As the agent said, who was a top

908
00:48:56.329 --> 00:48:58.010
agent in the business, who is a founder of a

909
00:48:58.030 --> 00:49:04.809
top agency. He said, this is the first time these

910
00:49:04.849 --> 00:49:07.389
things are, are happening that they're seeing this in the business.

911
00:49:07.429 --> 00:49:11.099
He had trouble selling it. he had trouble selling it.

912
00:49:11.250 --> 00:49:14.679
And it's not, it's because of probably a number of things.

913
00:49:14.760 --> 00:49:18.820
Timing was part of it. Um, it, we loved the proposal.

914
00:49:18.860 --> 00:49:21.579
We were so happy with the proposal and how it

915
00:49:21.599 --> 00:49:25.420
came together. And, you know, again, put extra work into it.

916
00:49:25.659 --> 00:49:28.900
And for an author, I really have grown to like

917
00:49:29.039 --> 00:49:31.739
really love and care about, and we're friends now. And,

918
00:49:32.699 --> 00:49:35.650
and it just ended up that the way that it

919
00:49:35.710 --> 00:49:39.340
sold and what it sold for and everything, I, couldn't

920
00:49:39.380 --> 00:49:41.059
continue with the book. They wanted me to continue with

921
00:49:41.099 --> 00:49:44.300
the book, but I just, because this is where I

922
00:49:44.340 --> 00:49:48.239
make my living, I couldn't. And that was really hard.

923
00:49:48.340 --> 00:49:51.139
And they totally understood. And the book did sell. Um,

924
00:49:52.179 --> 00:49:54.699
but because there's been a pullback lately and, you know,

925
00:49:54.719 --> 00:49:57.610
like getting into the industry, et cetera, et cetera, you know,

926
00:49:57.780 --> 00:50:00.409
when the economy is hard, when the prices for books

927
00:50:00.469 --> 00:50:02.909
go up, you know, whatever, the dances get smaller and

928
00:50:03.429 --> 00:50:05.730
these things happen. But a book that I thought was

929
00:50:05.769 --> 00:50:09.219
a sure thing fell through. And then a project that

930
00:50:09.300 --> 00:50:12.159
I was up for that it really looked like I

931
00:50:12.199 --> 00:50:13.650
had a fair, well, I did have a very strong

932
00:50:13.670 --> 00:50:16.230
chance of getting it. The author went the other way

933
00:50:16.289 --> 00:50:18.869
because there, it was one of those, the agent was like, well,

934
00:50:18.889 --> 00:50:22.289
I know this other writer. So I'm a little more comfortable,

935
00:50:22.409 --> 00:50:25.630
even though, you know, it's those heartbreakers. So I had

936
00:50:25.650 --> 00:50:27.449
a couple of those. And so I had extra time

937
00:50:27.489 --> 00:50:31.159
in my schedule and I was like, okay, well, I'm

938
00:50:31.179 --> 00:50:33.159
working on one of my own side projects, which I'm

939
00:50:33.380 --> 00:50:35.719
very happy to be doing. But again, this is my work.

940
00:50:36.510 --> 00:50:38.730
So I was talking to my mentor and she's like,

941
00:50:39.070 --> 00:50:42.730
I don't understand why you're not doing workshops anymore. I

942
00:50:42.809 --> 00:50:47.079
used to do teaching workshops. I love doing writing workshops.

943
00:50:47.119 --> 00:50:49.780
I love doing workshops again of all kinds. I've taught

944
00:50:49.820 --> 00:50:51.739
lots of stuff. I've been a massage therapist in the

945
00:50:51.800 --> 00:50:53.920
past just for fun, you know, like on the side

946
00:50:53.960 --> 00:50:55.760
and I became a teacher and I was doing workshops there.

947
00:50:57.019 --> 00:51:00.260
And I thought that there are so many workshops out there,

948
00:51:00.320 --> 00:51:01.269
you know, I don't know if I want to get

949
00:51:01.309 --> 00:51:04.119
back into that. And all these people were like, you know,

950
00:51:04.440 --> 00:51:06.840
you're at a different, you're also at a different place now.

951
00:51:06.980 --> 00:51:09.119
You know, like you've been doing this for a minute.

952
00:51:09.179 --> 00:51:13.929
You've been, you know, like you've really got some new

953
00:51:13.989 --> 00:51:16.369
knowledge and new things. And so they talked me into it.

954
00:51:17.269 --> 00:51:18.969
But I was very, it was kind of easy to

955
00:51:19.329 --> 00:51:21.610
talk into because I, you know, I got really excited.

956
00:51:21.670 --> 00:51:24.010
So I put together a workshop that I'm offering right

957
00:51:24.030 --> 00:51:26.650
now called, this is going to be a shocker. It's

958
00:51:26.710 --> 00:51:32.539
called Show Don't Tell. And I'm going to walk people

959
00:51:32.659 --> 00:51:37.269
through like a lot of the kind of basics that

960
00:51:37.289 --> 00:51:39.190
are behind that and the devices. So we're going to

961
00:51:39.250 --> 00:51:41.949
talk about dialogue. We're going to talk about exposition and

962
00:51:41.989 --> 00:51:44.329
when exposition is helpful and when it's a little too much.

963
00:51:44.349 --> 00:51:47.550
And we're going to talk about everybody's friends, the adjectives

964
00:51:47.650 --> 00:51:49.760
and like how to use them and how not to

965
00:51:49.880 --> 00:51:53.260
use them and, you know, character description and place setting

966
00:51:53.300 --> 00:51:56.739
and like all these things. And in a way that's

967
00:51:56.780 --> 00:52:01.239
really accessible and really fun. And my promise, I have

968
00:52:01.280 --> 00:52:03.539
two promises, I think around this thing, which is that,

969
00:52:04.230 --> 00:52:06.309
If you're a newer writer or you're just kind of

970
00:52:06.429 --> 00:52:10.030
playing with writing, there's definitely stuff for you. And if

971
00:52:10.070 --> 00:52:13.110
you're a more experienced writer, there is definitely stuff for

972
00:52:13.150 --> 00:52:16.750
you because it's along those lines of you can always

973
00:52:16.789 --> 00:52:21.269
find something to improve. Even if it's like conceptually you

974
00:52:21.289 --> 00:52:24.090
understand dialogue, we're going to look at it in a

975
00:52:24.130 --> 00:52:26.449
couple different ways and some of them might be new

976
00:52:26.489 --> 00:52:30.190
to you. So there really is something for everybody. And

977
00:52:30.210 --> 00:52:34.820
then my other promise is like... minute one, turning away,

978
00:52:34.969 --> 00:52:37.530
closing the computer, you're going to have skills that you

979
00:52:37.550 --> 00:52:41.949
can apply to your next newsletter, to your book project, to,

980
00:52:42.730 --> 00:52:45.409
you know, whatever, whatever you want to tackle, to telling

981
00:52:45.449 --> 00:52:47.769
a story at the dinner table. You know, my, my

982
00:52:47.829 --> 00:52:51.329
father-in-law is the master dinner table storyteller. You know, we

983
00:52:51.369 --> 00:52:53.889
know those people. We don't care if they're reading, you know,

984
00:52:53.909 --> 00:52:55.010
like they're telling us what they read on the back

985
00:52:55.030 --> 00:52:58.809
of a matchbook. They make it so entertaining. We want

986
00:52:58.829 --> 00:53:01.309
to listen to it. So you will have skills you

987
00:53:01.349 --> 00:53:03.900
can use. right away and we're going to have fun

988
00:53:03.920 --> 00:53:06.550
in the process because why do it if it's not fun?

989
00:53:07.349 --> 00:53:10.949
And yeah, so we're going to launch it out there,

990
00:53:11.289 --> 00:53:13.389
see how it goes. And I will say I'm also

991
00:53:13.510 --> 00:53:16.659
doing something through the workshop that I never do, which

992
00:53:16.679 --> 00:53:19.559
is I'm going to offer coaching packages for people who

993
00:53:19.599 --> 00:53:22.119
want a little extra work. If they want to work

994
00:53:22.239 --> 00:53:24.619
one on one, have me review some of their writing,

995
00:53:24.719 --> 00:53:28.309
give them some tips. et cetera. Um, I do offer coaching,

996
00:53:28.329 --> 00:53:30.050
but I never do packages and I'm going to do

997
00:53:30.070 --> 00:53:32.269
some like discounts and things like that, that I also

998
00:53:32.309 --> 00:53:36.090
never do because why not? So yeah. And I'm going

999
00:53:36.110 --> 00:53:38.269
to get it all in because now my work's picking

1000
00:53:38.289 --> 00:53:39.489
back up again. So.

1001
00:53:40.610 --> 00:53:41.269
That's cool.

1002
00:53:41.789 --> 00:53:42.110
P.S.

1003
00:53:42.429 --> 00:53:45.809
I noticed that you had some bad things happen and

1004
00:53:45.849 --> 00:53:48.150
you found some purpose in your pain. And I love

1005
00:53:48.190 --> 00:53:51.750
that because that's kind of been my year. I decided

1006
00:53:51.829 --> 00:53:54.090
I was going to you know, go all in on

1007
00:53:54.110 --> 00:53:57.190
the podcast and work on my memoir and make these

1008
00:53:57.309 --> 00:54:00.780
magical experiences and adventures happen for myself this year because

1009
00:54:00.820 --> 00:54:03.679
I had two really bad job transitions in a row

1010
00:54:03.699 --> 00:54:06.679
that broke me into all kinds of tiny little pieces.

1011
00:54:06.860 --> 00:54:09.119
And now I've been spending this nine months or so

1012
00:54:09.159 --> 00:54:12.699
that I've been on this fun employment journey, you know,

1013
00:54:12.739 --> 00:54:15.380
piecing things back together in a way that has been

1014
00:54:15.519 --> 00:54:18.940
helping people. And that's what you're doing with this workshop.

1015
00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:21.460
That's what you're doing with your work. is you're helping

1016
00:54:21.500 --> 00:54:26.409
people figure out better pathways and better systems and better

1017
00:54:26.469 --> 00:54:30.610
ways to tell their story. And, and that's, that's, that's

1018
00:54:30.650 --> 00:54:34.070
why we're, that's why we're friends, friends. Um, Kelly and

1019
00:54:34.090 --> 00:54:36.630
I have been friends for a couple of years. Uh, I've,

1020
00:54:36.710 --> 00:54:38.889
I've honestly forgot I've lost, I've lost track, but we've

1021
00:54:38.909 --> 00:54:41.340
been friends for a couple of years and I am

1022
00:54:41.429 --> 00:54:45.519
so grateful for the time and the opportunity to get

1023
00:54:45.539 --> 00:54:47.860
to know each other better. Turns out we're like soul

1024
00:54:47.880 --> 00:54:51.610
sisters from another mystery. Uh, and it's just been really

1025
00:54:51.670 --> 00:54:53.750
cool to, to find that out and to lean in

1026
00:54:53.829 --> 00:54:57.070
and to connect so deeply with somebody that's so wise

1027
00:54:57.289 --> 00:55:00.630
and so smart and so good at what she does.

1028
00:55:00.889 --> 00:55:03.550
So like, I didn't mean for this to sound like

1029
00:55:03.590 --> 00:55:06.710
a sales sales pitch conversation, cause it's not meant to

1030
00:55:06.730 --> 00:55:09.690
be that at all. And then there's actually been a ton,

1031
00:55:10.170 --> 00:55:12.889
in my opinion, as a writer, there's been a ton

1032
00:55:12.909 --> 00:55:16.730
of of value and actionable things, even in this conversation.

1033
00:55:16.829 --> 00:55:19.230
So this is, and this is, we're just like scratching

1034
00:55:19.269 --> 00:55:23.510
the surface. Um, my sidebar ADHD brain at one point

1035
00:55:23.550 --> 00:55:26.909
went off to our queen, miss Taylor Swift, because she

1036
00:55:27.610 --> 00:55:30.989
is a genius at exactly what you're doing with her lyrics,

1037
00:55:31.489 --> 00:55:36.030
where there's very specific things and very intentional word choices

1038
00:55:36.130 --> 00:55:38.670
and wordplay and all of that. And for my Swifty

1039
00:55:38.710 --> 00:55:42.059
friends out there like that, I like that is listening

1040
00:55:42.079 --> 00:55:44.780
to Taylor Swift has made me a better communicator and it's,

1041
00:55:44.900 --> 00:55:48.449
it sounds goofy out loud, but it's true. And spending it's,

1042
00:55:48.550 --> 00:55:50.469
it's who we spend our time with, right? Like I

1043
00:55:50.510 --> 00:55:53.110
spend a lot of time with Ms. Taylor Swift in my,

1044
00:55:53.309 --> 00:55:55.809
in my ears. But then I also spend time with

1045
00:55:55.849 --> 00:56:00.280
people like Kelly who have the ability and the heart

1046
00:56:00.699 --> 00:56:04.300
to honestly like find ways to, you know, inspire you

1047
00:56:04.440 --> 00:56:07.559
on the fly. Like I, I'm so grateful. And I,

1048
00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:10.639
I had, I had more questions, but I think we're

1049
00:56:10.659 --> 00:56:13.920
a little short on time. So Kelly, what else and

1050
00:56:13.960 --> 00:56:17.550
where else people are leaning in to find out all

1051
00:56:17.590 --> 00:56:20.769
the information about this workshop? So where can we find it?

1052
00:56:20.949 --> 00:56:23.610
What do we do? When is it happening? Walk us

1053
00:56:23.670 --> 00:56:27.570
through the really practical logistics. Absolutely.

1054
00:56:27.849 --> 00:56:30.190
And thanks for that. The best way to find me

1055
00:56:30.230 --> 00:56:35.250
is on my website, which is kellymadrone.com, M-A-D-R-O-N-E. And that's

1056
00:56:35.269 --> 00:56:38.489
where you'll find out about the workshop, it's, um, you

1057
00:56:38.530 --> 00:56:40.570
can just go to my website and go to events

1058
00:56:40.630 --> 00:56:43.159
and click through, through there, uh, or work with me

1059
00:56:43.199 --> 00:56:45.760
and click through, through there, or, you know, the actual

1060
00:56:45.920 --> 00:56:51.139
address is kellymadrone.com forward slash show hyphen don't hyphen tell.

1061
00:56:51.820 --> 00:56:54.530
But I actually, I'm not really, I, you know, I'm

1062
00:56:54.550 --> 00:56:56.449
not going to plug any social media handles because as

1063
00:56:56.469 --> 00:56:58.929
Ty knows, I'm not really on social media. I have

1064
00:56:58.949 --> 00:57:02.210
a LinkedIn page and that's it. which was a purposeful

1065
00:57:02.710 --> 00:57:06.110
decision for me actually in support of my writing practice.

1066
00:57:06.170 --> 00:57:08.469
So I could keep my bandwidth really focused on writing.

1067
00:57:08.969 --> 00:57:11.030
And also because of the nature of what I do,

1068
00:57:11.070 --> 00:57:13.360
I'm a ghost writer. You know, I am a collaborating

1069
00:57:13.380 --> 00:57:15.219
writer too. I write, you know, all kinds of stuff

1070
00:57:15.239 --> 00:57:18.039
for people, but I'm really a person behind a person.

1071
00:57:18.820 --> 00:57:20.900
And so this is like doing this workshop is kind of,

1072
00:57:21.019 --> 00:57:23.420
you know, like I'm usually behind my computer, behind my desk,

1073
00:57:23.440 --> 00:57:27.679
working with somebody else intently. And rarely like actually get

1074
00:57:27.719 --> 00:57:29.380
in front of the screen. And, you know, I don't,

1075
00:57:29.460 --> 00:57:31.159
like I said, don't do social media and everything. So

1076
00:57:31.199 --> 00:57:33.239
this is one of the only times, you know, that

1077
00:57:33.260 --> 00:57:37.550
I'm doing this. So yeah, website's the best way to

1078
00:57:37.590 --> 00:57:40.210
find me and to find out more about the workshop

1079
00:57:40.250 --> 00:57:43.190
if you're so inclined. And I will say I've priced it,

1080
00:57:43.510 --> 00:57:46.630
you know, early bird goes up to September 30th. It's

1081
00:57:46.670 --> 00:57:48.949
possible we'll extend that a little bit for people, but

1082
00:57:49.349 --> 00:57:52.519
right now it's set to September 30th. But I really set,

1083
00:57:53.199 --> 00:57:56.099
you know, the prices in a way that I wanted

1084
00:57:56.179 --> 00:57:58.820
to make it super accessible for people because I've had

1085
00:57:58.860 --> 00:58:00.360
people come to me and want to work with me.

1086
00:58:00.440 --> 00:58:03.230
And unfortunately I wish I could drop my prices for

1087
00:58:03.269 --> 00:58:05.050
everybody so I could work with everybody, but there's also

1088
00:58:05.090 --> 00:58:09.610
a finite amount of time and two kids to support. So, um, and, uh,

1089
00:58:09.670 --> 00:58:11.949
you know, like the whole family thing, pointe shoes to

1090
00:58:11.989 --> 00:58:15.230
buy horse lessons to pay for all that good stuff

1091
00:58:15.250 --> 00:58:18.710
that we're getting into. Um, but the, so I don't

1092
00:58:18.730 --> 00:58:20.530
get to work with everybody I'd like with because price

1093
00:58:20.550 --> 00:58:23.840
sometimes is prohibited. So the benefit of doing something like

1094
00:58:23.880 --> 00:58:25.639
this is I hopefully get to work with a lot

1095
00:58:25.659 --> 00:58:29.460
of people, some of whom I wouldn't necessarily work with otherwise,

1096
00:58:29.519 --> 00:58:32.679
but I will say I put some of this out

1097
00:58:32.719 --> 00:58:35.460
to my past clients who many of whom I'm still

1098
00:58:35.500 --> 00:58:38.400
in touch with and a bunch of them say they're

1099
00:58:38.420 --> 00:58:40.840
going to show up. So there's kind of like an

1100
00:58:41.019 --> 00:58:44.610
all-star thing happening too, which is not to, you know,

1101
00:58:44.679 --> 00:58:46.489
just because we haven't worked together before, it doesn't mean

1102
00:58:46.510 --> 00:58:49.389
you're not an all-star. But I just know I've worked

1103
00:58:49.409 --> 00:58:51.880
with some of these people before and I'm like, wow,

1104
00:58:52.030 --> 00:58:54.179
I am excited to spend. I'm excited to spend time

1105
00:58:54.219 --> 00:58:57.199
with them. So it's going to happen in November. It's

1106
00:58:57.219 --> 00:59:00.500
going to be over three Wednesday evenings, depending on your

1107
00:59:00.519 --> 00:59:02.969
time zone. It'll fall differently. All the information is on

1108
00:59:02.989 --> 00:59:06.429
the website. Sessions will be recorded. If you can't make

1109
00:59:06.530 --> 00:59:08.559
one or more, you know, there will be recordings. Although

1110
00:59:08.579 --> 00:59:11.000
I'm hoping as many people can come live as possible

1111
00:59:11.059 --> 00:59:14.539
to enjoy the vibes and contribute the vibes. And we'll

1112
00:59:14.559 --> 00:59:17.519
do some, some live exercises. You will not be called

1113
00:59:17.559 --> 00:59:20.280
to stand up in class and share your writing unless

1114
00:59:20.320 --> 00:59:23.639
you so choose. But yeah, I think it's, I think

1115
00:59:23.659 --> 00:59:24.550
it's going to be a lot of fun.

1116
00:59:27.019 --> 00:59:28.940
And I'm going to be there. So it's going to

1117
00:59:28.960 --> 00:59:29.239
be fun.

1118
00:59:29.880 --> 00:59:34.809
No. Exactly. Like I said, all stars. All stars.

1119
00:59:35.409 --> 00:59:38.550
You're so sweet. Thank you. I have one more question

1120
00:59:38.690 --> 00:59:41.010
and it's more of a quick before you forget question

1121
00:59:41.050 --> 00:59:43.969
just to wrap us up and kind of bookmark or bookmark,

1122
00:59:43.989 --> 00:59:49.159
bookend the conversation. Quick before you forget, what do you

1123
00:59:49.219 --> 00:59:53.599
want to remind yourself of that you often do forget regularly?

1124
00:59:53.679 --> 00:59:55.920
Like what is something, a mantra or something that you

1125
00:59:56.000 --> 00:59:59.239
need to you want to keep front of mind for

1126
00:59:59.300 --> 01:00:01.409
Kelly in this current season that you're in?

1127
01:00:03.630 --> 01:00:08.030
I think there's a mantra right now that I do

1128
01:00:08.309 --> 01:00:14.800
go to, which is you chose this, you know, like

1129
01:00:15.019 --> 01:00:20.739
I made a choice to, um, pursue something that I

1130
01:00:20.820 --> 01:00:24.829
really love. That's not particularly easy. And I think that's,

1131
01:00:25.010 --> 01:00:26.449
I think that could be true for a lot of people.

1132
01:00:26.570 --> 01:00:29.210
And I think, I think that's true, not even just

1133
01:00:29.230 --> 01:00:32.980
of people's professions. Sometimes, you know, like there was a,

1134
01:00:33.130 --> 01:00:35.730
there was choice involved. There's choice involved every day that

1135
01:00:35.769 --> 01:00:39.530
I continue to do this. And so when, when it

1136
01:00:39.550 --> 01:00:45.719
gets struggly, I remind myself of that because behind that

1137
01:00:45.760 --> 01:00:48.320
is there's a reason I chose this because I do

1138
01:00:48.380 --> 01:00:50.739
love it and I love it enough. hang with the

1139
01:00:50.760 --> 01:00:54.340
struggle and really see value in the struggle. Like, I

1140
01:00:54.380 --> 01:00:58.179
really feel like I am in this relationship with writing

1141
01:00:58.219 --> 01:01:00.820
and it helps me grow as a person. I mean,

1142
01:01:00.840 --> 01:01:06.400
I've developed massive amounts of outside writing skills, I think, because,

1143
01:01:06.780 --> 01:01:09.440
you know, again, always more to go, always more room

1144
01:01:09.460 --> 01:01:14.079
for improvement. But because of this, so I feel like

1145
01:01:14.219 --> 01:01:16.070
I give it a lot. It gives me a lot.

1146
01:01:16.840 --> 01:01:19.059
You know, and when I run up into those walls

1147
01:01:19.099 --> 01:01:22.219
and we don't get the jobs I want or, you know, whatever,

1148
01:01:22.400 --> 01:01:25.260
the words just aren't coming as easily. I just remind

1149
01:01:25.300 --> 01:01:28.289
myself that like this is part of the process. This

1150
01:01:28.510 --> 01:01:31.610
is what this is. It doesn't mean something's wrong. You know,

1151
01:01:31.630 --> 01:01:34.030
like that's a that's a critical element. It's a feature,

1152
01:01:34.090 --> 01:01:38.530
not a bug. So, I mean, for for listeners, et cetera,

1153
01:01:38.690 --> 01:01:41.989
life is like that because things aren't going the way

1154
01:01:42.230 --> 01:01:45.599
you would like because they're not easeful. That's not wrong.

1155
01:01:46.510 --> 01:01:50.070
it's a feature of life. That doesn't mean it's not

1156
01:01:50.139 --> 01:01:51.820
hard and it doesn't hurt. And we don't need to

1157
01:01:51.840 --> 01:01:55.280
like find good friends to commiserate with and, you know,

1158
01:01:56.480 --> 01:01:58.980
laugh when you slide into a cactus and, you know,

1159
01:01:59.019 --> 01:02:02.599
all this, the bear eats your pears, find ways to,

1160
01:02:02.679 --> 01:02:05.210
you know, and sometimes it's like, I took a, I

1161
01:02:05.250 --> 01:02:08.869
didn't even tell you this yesterday morning after the cactus,

1162
01:02:08.909 --> 01:02:10.889
et cetera, I took a note from you and I said,

1163
01:02:10.949 --> 01:02:13.579
I'm going to have a mental health morning. I don't

1164
01:02:13.639 --> 01:02:15.880
have work that I have to do right now. I'm

1165
01:02:15.900 --> 01:02:17.280
going to lay on the couch a little bit also

1166
01:02:17.300 --> 01:02:21.369
because I didn't get enough sleep and just not life

1167
01:02:21.469 --> 01:02:24.289
right now. My life is just going to be like chilling.

1168
01:02:24.610 --> 01:02:26.050
And I did that for two hours and I felt

1169
01:02:26.090 --> 01:02:29.429
so much better. And then, you know, I got an

1170
01:02:29.489 --> 01:02:33.110
email message. I got some other good news. It's just

1171
01:02:33.210 --> 01:02:35.889
all life and it just all comes around again. So

1172
01:02:35.909 --> 01:02:37.599
it's not like it's good when it's good and it's

1173
01:02:37.619 --> 01:02:39.400
bad when it's bad. It's just all life.

1174
01:02:40.679 --> 01:02:44.309
Right. Right. And we choose it over and over again.

1175
01:02:44.969 --> 01:02:47.769
What I hear you saying is you remind yourself you

1176
01:02:47.789 --> 01:02:53.030
chose it and you choose it again by continuing to

1177
01:02:53.070 --> 01:02:57.230
show up. So that's why I am grateful because I

1178
01:02:57.309 --> 01:02:59.170
continue to show up on this yellow brick road that

1179
01:02:59.210 --> 01:03:03.510
continues to offer me companionship and friendship in people like you.

1180
01:03:03.630 --> 01:03:06.809
So thank you for being here and sharing your story

1181
01:03:06.969 --> 01:03:10.449
and trusting me with some amount of social media promotion

1182
01:03:10.469 --> 01:03:14.110
of this episode. I am so grateful. And we will see.

1183
01:03:14.449 --> 01:03:14.929
Oh my gosh.

1184
01:03:14.969 --> 01:03:16.510
Ty's going to, Ty's going to help me out.

1185
01:03:17.409 --> 01:03:19.730
I am. I'm going to help. I will do whatever

1186
01:03:19.750 --> 01:03:20.730
I can because that's.

1187
01:03:20.610 --> 01:03:22.670
Something I'm not good at that. I don't have any

1188
01:03:22.730 --> 01:03:23.469
interest really.

1189
01:03:23.489 --> 01:03:26.610
And we couldn't, we couldn't be more different that way.

1190
01:03:26.730 --> 01:03:29.679
Like I do. I was telling her I have a, um,

1191
01:03:29.719 --> 01:03:32.420
one of my rollercoaster videos is, um, going to hit

1192
01:03:32.460 --> 01:03:35.119
a million views. It's it's, it's, it's headed there. We're,

1193
01:03:35.159 --> 01:03:38.320
we're on the rollercoaster ride and it's happening. Um, and

1194
01:03:38.380 --> 01:03:40.760
she's got no social media, but we balance each other. Well,

1195
01:03:40.920 --> 01:03:42.780
I think we'd balance each other. Well, and that's, and

1196
01:03:42.800 --> 01:03:44.409
that's what it's all about. That is what the yellow

1197
01:03:44.429 --> 01:03:45.309
brick road is all about.

1198
01:03:45.510 --> 01:03:47.650
That's the thing. It's like, you don't have to be

1199
01:03:47.670 --> 01:03:50.909
good at everything. You know, you just, that's what relationships

1200
01:03:50.949 --> 01:03:51.789
are for. Yeah.

1201
01:03:52.110 --> 01:03:54.269
And you find, you find your people. We're finding our people.

1202
01:03:54.429 --> 01:03:57.730
So hopefully we find your people and our people in

1203
01:03:57.909 --> 01:03:59.889
your workshop in November.

1204
01:03:59.929 --> 01:04:01.630
Hang out with us. It's going to be fun. It's

1205
01:04:01.650 --> 01:04:03.860
going to be insightful. Hopefully it's going to, you know,

1206
01:04:03.889 --> 01:04:05.139
you're going to get tools. You're going to get all

1207
01:04:05.159 --> 01:04:05.480
this stuff.

1208
01:04:06.280 --> 01:04:09.780
Amazing. And friends, we will see you next time on

1209
01:04:09.840 --> 01:04:13.750
Quick Before You Forget. That was so much fun. Thank

1210
01:04:13.769 --> 01:04:18.110
you for investing your time, energy and thought into spending

1211
01:04:18.130 --> 01:04:20.840
some time with me today. I really appreciate you. And

1212
01:04:21.159 --> 01:04:24.280
I really appreciate when you talk back. So please, if

1213
01:04:24.320 --> 01:04:27.849
you're here still, thank you so much. Please tell me

1214
01:04:27.869 --> 01:04:30.650
what you thought. Tell me what other questions you have.

1215
01:04:30.769 --> 01:04:34.130
Tell me how this episode affected you and how it

1216
01:04:34.170 --> 01:04:36.329
resonated with you and all of the things. Tell me

1217
01:04:36.409 --> 01:04:39.719
all the things in the comments. And please know that

1218
01:04:39.739 --> 01:04:42.920
I'm reading every single comment, responding to every single comment.

1219
01:04:43.480 --> 01:04:46.739
And I appreciate you. Thank you for being here with

1220
01:04:46.780 --> 01:04:50.500
me today. Please also like, share, subscribe if this if

1221
01:04:50.539 --> 01:04:53.010
this episode was fun for you. It'll be fun for

1222
01:04:53.050 --> 01:04:55.239
a friend, so send it to a friend that might

1223
01:04:55.320 --> 01:04:59.280
enjoy a little laughter, a little joy, and a little

1224
01:04:59.320 --> 01:05:05.619
more time investing in themselves. And today, I am proudly sponsored,

1225
01:05:05.679 --> 01:05:09.739
not sponsored, by Zeke's Village Market in Door County, Wisconsin,

1226
01:05:09.940 --> 01:05:15.079
which provided this fantastic shirt, which Ephraim is a really

1227
01:05:15.099 --> 01:05:17.659
cute town in Door County. If you haven't been there.

1228
01:05:18.380 --> 01:05:19.039
It's beautiful.

1229
01:05:19.199 --> 01:05:22.530
It's very much Cape Cod town. It's the Cape Cod

1230
01:05:22.550 --> 01:05:24.730
of the Midwest. So I just have to show you

1231
01:05:24.750 --> 01:05:28.159
the design because the design is what makes it a

1232
01:05:28.280 --> 01:05:40.739
souvenir with soul. So we're going to stand up. Every

1233
01:05:40.860 --> 01:05:44.750
single design from Zeke's has heart and soul put into it.

1234
01:05:45.000 --> 01:05:49.559
And it's designed and they partner with Guilty Apparel. And

1235
01:05:49.719 --> 01:05:54.059
the two together are a dynamic duo of awesomeness. So

1236
01:05:54.320 --> 01:05:56.940
I am so grateful for their belief in me and

1237
01:05:57.119 --> 01:06:01.420
their beautiful designs and their souvenirs with soul. And I

1238
01:06:01.500 --> 01:06:04.000
will see you next time on Quick Before You Forget.