How to Be Okay When Nothing Is Okay: How Depression Lies, Creativity Heals, and Joy Still Matters

0:00 Let me guess Grannie's alive again. And I was like, no, she really is, and she was like, wait, I was just joking. And I was like, oh no, no, she's like a zombie. And then my mom calls again and my mom goes, she's dead again. She's dead again. And she was like, it's okay, it's okay, she's dead again. Ana. I laughed so hard, and my mom laughed and my sister and it was the most healing, wonderful and I was like, I wish Granny was alive for this, because she would have laughed her ass off.

0:58 Jenny Laws and welcome to Quick before you forget. Oh my gosh, I'm so glad to be here. I've had an extremely crazy morning and this I have been looking forward to this, so. Yeah, let's do this. I've been looking forward to it. My friends and my family have not heard me shut up about it because I'm just so stinking excited, because you guys. Jenny, who is also affectionately known as the bloggis like mother Teresa, only better, is also a number one New York Times bestselling author and multiple New York Times bestselling author. I might add she is also a columnist an award winning humorist and someone who has turned some of life's hardest mental health battles into connection, creativity, and chances for laughter.

1:49 In her newest book, How to Be Okay When Nothing Is Okay, she shares raw, real and often hilarious tools that have helped her keep going even when her brain is where looking against her. Especially then, if you've ever wondered how to keep creating, living and finding light when things feel heavy, this is going to be a conversation for you. So I am so pumped. I'm so ready. And I think that Jenny, storytelling as you are a you were like blogging before anybody was blogging, and you know all about this art of storytelling. But I do believe that storytelling is our superpower. So I want us to walk through like past, present, and future kind of together, starting with a story about a person that made an impact on you as a younger human that has continued to have an impact later in life.

2:45 I would say the person that has had the biggest impact is probably my mom. She is she would say that she's incredibly boring, and you know the sheat every time I call, she's like, well you got to talk. I got nothing, but she is the kindest person that I've ever met, And throughout my life, whenever I want to be a better person, I just think like, what would my mom do? What would my mom tell me. To do here? What? How? What would she react when I when I don't want to do something, But then I but I know it's something I need to be doing.

3:27 I think. My mom would be proud of me later. You know, this is something that later I can be like, oh, look I did this thing, and she'll go, oh, I'm so proud of you. But at the same time she's also. Accepting and loving, and then I can say, oh, I you know got offered. You know this great thing that anybody else would. Just die for, but I can't do it because it's just it's just too much for me. She's like, yeah, you don't need you don't need that, You're cool, don't worry about it. And so I try to bring that forward, that same sort of energy with. My kid and with my own life. I don't always succeed, but I try well. Trying matters, you know, and your mom, you know, I appreciate that she supported you in ways that you needed to be supported. Particularly, I don't know, and if you've talked about this, I apologize publicly, But like you did she encourage you to start writing? Can you walk us through like how you got started in writing, because I know you've been writing since you were a very little girl.

4:27 Yeah. No, she she encouraged me to always read. And I think that there is a natural progression for a lot of people that if you read a lot, then you want to. Tell your own stories. And so she When I think back to my childhood, that's one of the things that I remember the most is, you know, walking to the bookmobile and her, you know, sitting with this giant stack of books and being like, okay, you pick one, your sister picks the one. You pick one, your sister picks one. And then you know, when she wasn't reading the she was reading to herself, and so she was modeling that idea. And so I think because because I saw what the written word could do, it made it easier for me to find my own words that way, especially because my anxiety was so extremely high at the time and at the time, you know, when you know this seventies eighties, No, if you said, like I have an anxiety disorder, they would be like what, because I wouldn't. Nobody in my family would have known what that meant. We had all been huh, never heard of that before. My mom was like, you just have a nervous tummy, and I was like, yeah, feels more than that, but maybe maybe. And so I was able to because my anxiety was so strong. I found that writing notes to people, like in class was much easier than talking to people. And slowly I discovered like journaling

5:58 and you know, diary writing, which I think can be so incredibly helpful and and I'm glad that I because I was looking through recently, I found one of my diaries from seventh grade and I'm looking through her. O gosh, oh it's so cringey, it's so oh my god. But you know, that's how you start, you know, you have to start and. Do it wrong and try out different personalities and then go back and be like, oh, I wasn't this, like, you know, punk rocker that I thought I was going to be this month, And then the next month I was like, well, maybe I'm this, and maybe I'm then.

6:39 I don't know. It's interesting being able to see it all on paper. What do you think she was trying to unpack, like what oh hold on to because so like Matthew McConaughey said this really cool thing once about how we don't write things down to remember, we write things down to forget. So it makes me wonder what seventh grade Jenny was trying to hold on to slash forget way back then, like can you can you can you walk us through it? Yeah? I think she was trying to forget how awkward she felt, how scared she felt that she would never fit in. I think that there was a lot of you know, I think everybody when they're in especially you know, elementary and middle school, high school, all the way through.

7:30 For me until college, I just felt like there's nobody like me. And not in a good way, not like I'm so special, I'm incredible, but like there's something I'm very broken in a very different way. People know it, people can tell it just by looking at me. And especially because the Internet didn't exist at that time. And so. That that tiny little world that you had felt like it was everything. And so when I got out into the world and I started writing and blogging, I all of a sudden I found all of these other people who were the same weird and the same awkward and the same you know, strange sense of humor that I have, and.

8:22 You realize. It's like, okay, So I would say there's probably ten percent of the people in the world are like my people who go, oh my god, I totally get it. We're on the same level. We can laugh at the same things, we can laugh at a funeral and totally understand what we're talking about. And those people add up, right if you can find them all of a sudden, you're like, we're legion. There's so many of us. But it's so easy. When you're in like a small little world to be like, oh, okay, well I reached out to these nine people and I didn't fit in with any of them, so it must be something with me, when it's really not. It's just about finding your people.

9:04 I love that you did that by being yourself like you. You found your people by just showing up as yourself, starting for you only like you started to show up for you. You chose to show up for you, And there's such power in that, Like people need to understand that it's okay to show up and it's okay to first of all, not fit in right but then like, it's okay to show up as yourself. In fact, it's so good and so healthy and so normal to show up fully and authentically you. And when you do that, you're crazy finds crazy, right like our people find us. And it's this beautiful thing. And I'm so grateful that you've done that, because you've had this profound You've created this safe space for people to feel like they can show up authentically as themselves and they're not gonna scare everybody away. And it reminds me of a story that I remember you shared. I don't know if it was in a book or on a podcast, but you shared a story of being at a conference or a book signing and hiding under a table. Do you remember this story?

10:11 Yeah, Okay, that through happened. That has happened multiple times. Whenever I get really, really anxious, and I will say this hasn't happened in the last maybe three or four years, I'm I'm feeling a little proud of myself, but at the same time, I know at any moment it could happen. But yeah, when when I would and my anxiety was really high, I realized that this is the safest place right, You just you get underneath the table. You get it underneath the desk. When I was a kid, I used to hide inside my toy box and take all the toys out. I'd get at a wooden toy box, I close it, and there's something very safe about that. And so on a you know, if at a blogging conference and I start to have a panic attack, I'm like, I'm gonna I'll see you guys later, and I'd go underneath the table.

11:04 As a matter of fact, that. Happened once, and another person that was at the table was like, I'm gonna go with you, and so she came down there. And then another person was like, Okay, well it seems like you guys are having more fun. And so we were just all sitting underneath the table and it was fantastic and we just like had our own little, our own little tent. It was amazing. But yeah, I there was one time when I was doing a speaking thing and it was this was maybe fun. Maybe ten years ago, I started to have a panic attack, and it was they hadn't brought the people in yet, and they had there was like a little table stand beside where my seat was.

11:49 Where I was going to. Be doing the stuff and it had a tablecloth, and I was like, I'm just gonna duck under here for a minute because I need like some private space and I can't get because normally I'll just go to the bathroom. But I couldn't get to the bathroom because I'd have to go through all the people, and so I was like, I'm just gonna So I got underneath there and I was just you know, I had my phone and I was just doing some deep breathing and I was it was all good. And then they opened the doors that all these people came in and I was like, oh shit, I'm stuck under here. Everybody's gonna see me climb out from underneath that. So really I heard people like walking around going where is she? I don't know. Have you seen her? I don't know. And I had to like climb out of the and not in like a graceful way, like climb out of you know, the tablecloth is like sticking Jimmy.

12:35 So I'm pulling this still. It was, but. You know what, if you show up that way, I think it gives people some comfort because they're like, okay, all right, you know what, all bets are off. If she can hide underneath the table on the stage, then it's okay. If I screw something up too. Found some community under that table with some people that like were like, this is more fun. And there was a time too where some like you got you were under the table, and then there was like somebody farther away that was also under a table, and I felt this level of like I felt seen, but I also felt like this this connection that happens again when you just show up authentically you like you, You made her feel less alone, which is like such an important thing and such a special thing that you do with your content.

13:35 You know, you you bring life and light and levity to really hard things. And later when I walk through some of your book titles, I make I made a note and an effort to make sure that we talked through the taglines of those book titles because they're so good and people need to stand by for that because it's so good. But sometimes sometimes you're writing as a result of some of the honestly, like I believe we have you have adhd as do I so as and as I understand at a level that some might not that there's some amount of your writing that feels like it might be unfinished, Like there's some things about it that don't feel quite done, but like in a good way.

14:19 So like why to you, Like, why is it important to show the mess instead of always cleaning it up? I think for two reasons. One, I don't have the ability to clean it up and so and a lot of people are like, oh, you're so brave for you know this and that, But but I kind of don't feel like I am because I don't. It's not a choice that I actively made. It's just this is who I am, right the I think it's I think it can be really helpful because it lets people realize that there are no real rules.

15:00 When I wrote my first book, I did it in a very weird way. And you know, my first book came out almost fifteen years ago, and when it came out, you know, confessional essays that wasn't new, but the way that I was writing it with like these run on sentences and all these footnotes and these like weird a sides and the and talking to the reader, and it was something that hadn't been done in that way, and I thought, well, this is going to really limit whether it'll you know, find an audience whether it'll sell, and instead, what I found is that that weirdness made it stand out in such a way that people really they related to it, and it sort of taught other people, Oh, there, if there are no.

15:51 Rules, what if I do this? What if I do and then we all win because then you've got like all of these great books kind of out or great pieces of art or great things, and every time somebody breaks the rules, you go, oh, oh, well, then if they can do that, then maybe I can do And I think it also helps people to see that there's beauty in the brokenness or in the strangeness, especially because so often I've had people who have said, I have never been able to read any books except for yours, because my ADHD makes it really hard to concentrate.

16:39 But for some reason, with your writing, I can read them, And I suspect I suspect part of it is because I write in very little sort of ways, and so it's easier to duck in and duck out. And with me, with ADHD, I'm very like, you know, I'm going to do something for you know, fifteen minutes, and then I'm like, what's over here, squirrel? But also I think it's really lovely that they can look at it and go, oh, this person is messed up in the same way that I am, and other people love that, and if they love that in her, maybe they'll love that in me as well. Well, thank you, because you've given me the creative I guess I don't even know permission is the right Is that the right word, but like you've given me the creative permission to think outside the box in similar ways where I too tend to write sometimes in a way that feels very disjointed to me even but it all kind of ends up coming together in this way that I would much rather be real and I would much rather just like sometimes ramble on or side note or strike through or whatever. And it's just like, as I'm working on my book, like I am being, I'm letting myself have that freedom to like just flow and think.

17:53 And because I do think that there's going to be people that see themselves in these stories, and if they're not perfectly tied up with a pretty little ribbon and there's a comma in the wrong place, they'll forgive me. So thank you for giving us writers and creators and artists the permission to own our mess, I guess a little bit. And one of the one of the stories that comes to mind as like an unfinished one, and I don't know if it ever did get finished. So this is like a this is this is a like real Jenny Loss and fan question. Then whatever happened to your sister getting chased by the pig? Did that ever? Did that story ever wrap?

18:34 Uh? You know, but it really didn't. I mean, she got chased by it. And then the I want to say, the third grade teacher came out and chased the pig back into the. Into the gate. And yeah, I think that was one of those that went off in in a weird tangent. And you know what's really interesting is I kind of want to We said, okay, so the same So we live right next to a pig farm, and and there's it was our house, and then you'd walk a little bit, and then there was the school, and then you'd walk a little bit, and then there was the pig farm. And they were show pigs. They were fancy pigs, but oh they like pigs. There. It was a very but the pigs ended up when I was older, they ended up getting into the house and the pigs like lived inside the house and would like go upstairs and downstairs and everything. And then I heard that the people who lived there were like, forget it, we'll just buy it.

19:34 We'll just build a new house. And so they had their own house and they'll just let the pigs live in the other house. I'm not sure if that's true. It may have just been something that my sister told me. But I have loved this story so much and I want to write a whole story of just these pigs living in this house. I don't know. I just think it's ridiculous and I love it. It's so good. And the thing that we're missing, that the nugget that we're missing is that those mama pigs are so protect dive of their baby pigs. And it actually the reason that the story like stood out and stands out to me to this day is I too, once got chased by pigs at the state fair, and that mama pig chased and I'll never forget, Like I can picture the barn and the like my dad running and it was this whole thing that I got chased by these pigs at the state fair because those mamas get protective of their babies.

20:27 Oh my gosh, and they're big and they are they'll hurt you. I mean they've got they've got Yeah, yeah. They're not they're not messing around. But so they should call them pigs. Because honestly, truly like unrecognizably dangerous and you wouldn't you wouldn't You wouldn't guess it. You wouldn't. You wouldn't you think they're like, oh, they're so lazy. They're fast when they want to be. I know, yes, terrifying. You're screaming at you. They sound like a woman screaming. It's yeah, I'm curious that what Jenny, what you would tell twenty two year old you if you could. I would say, it's going to be okay. It's interesting how often when I think of what I was going through in the past and what I at each stage of my life, especialially because my anxiety was so strong, every time I would think.

21:29 Is this the end? Am I going to get through this? Am I going to survive this? And I always think, in every situation, if I could go back in time, and the one thing that I would say is it's going to be okay, Like you're going to make mistakes. It's not going to be perfect, but it is going to be okay. You're going to get through this. And so when I even now start to panic in that same way, which I still constantly deal with, this idea of oh my gosh, you know what's going on, it's notince the terrible going to happen, I just remind myself that in every season of my life it was okay, and and I need to just just relax a little bit and enjoy life more than I more than my head wants me to, because my head wants me to be like on high alert, to pre grieve everything, to you know, see the worst thing in the horizon and live with that, because then it won't hurt as much whenever that terrible thing happens, and generally that terrible thing never happens. Another terrible thing might happen that I had no idea about, but even then I'm still like, but it's okay. I still I still gone through it. I'm still I'm still trucking.

22:51 Yes you are. And we try not to worry about tomorrow. Tomorrow will worry about itself. Right. That's that says easy does hard kind of thing for everybody I think, but I at some point along the line you figured out maybe it was just natural, But you tell me, at some point along the line you figured out that humor and comedy and laughter helps with these heavy things. Can you talk us through how humor has changed your relationship with hard things. So I have always been the kind of person to laugh at the darkest things. I think that there is something.

23:31 About finding the funny in the saddest, in the terrible that is not only healing, but also it takes this incredible monster and makes it smaller. And I think the other thing is. That it invites people in in a way that for example, I write about depression and the anxiety and fertility loss and just a million different things that are hard, and if I can start with find something to make somebody laugh about even the hardest thing, then it makes it.

24:18 First of all, it invites them in, especially if it's something that they're like, I've never had depression, I've never had anxiety, I've never had a miscarriage, and so instead they can go, Okay, well that was entertaining. Maybe I'll read a little bit further. It also, for a lot of times, people who are scared of a topic because it's too dark. If you can find a way to make them laugh, it kind of tells them that, like, you don't have to be scared about misstepping here. You don't have to be like, oh, am I gonna say the wrong thing? Am I going to do the wrong thing? And I think also it's once I can find the laughter in something is pretty much the first time that I can process it. So for example, this, uh, let's say, I guess last year, I found out that I have neuro endocrine cancer. And it's like it's very small and it's still moving, and it's it's not anything that I'm super worried about. I just have to keep doing biopsies every six months forever to make sure it's not growing.

25:22 But it wasn't. It was really it was difficult when I found out about it. I was really it just knocked me for a loop. I was not expecting it. And I got on the phone with my sister and she started making the darkest cancer jokes and they were so funny that I was like, I'm gonna be okay, because she wouldn't be able to joke with me if she thought I was going to die tomorrow and the fact that we're still finding joy and we're still finding laughter. That means my life is not over. I don't need to be like, Okay, everything changes now, everything must be serious. I'm still the same person. I still have the same tools, i still have the same support.

26:11 The one of the one of the examples that I give is when so when COVID first started, before there were the vaccinations, and you know, it was really scary and nobody knew what was going on. My grandmother got COVID and my uh, this was during the time when all the hospitals were packed and you you couldn't go and see them and uh, and my my grandmother had to mention and she was in memory care and so you know, my. Mom was like, if she goes, she would want this. So but we we were waiting and they, you know, would call and kind of keep us up to date.

26:55 And they my mom called and she was like, you know, they they called and she died, and we were like, we were really sad, but then but also like that's you know, that's that's what she would have wanted. And my mom was like, hold on, I'm getting another call. And she got back on the phone. She was like, oh, hang on, they got the wrong person. Somebody else died. She's fine and so, and I had already told my sister and it had texted her and so when I called her, she was like, let me guess Granny's alive again. And I was like, no, she really is. And she was like, wait, I was just joking. And I was like, oh no, no, she's like a zombie. And then my mom calls again and my mom goes, she's dead again. She's dead again. And she was like it's okay, it's okay, she's dead again. And I laughed so hard and my mom laughed and my sister and it was the most healing, wonderful and I was like, I wish Granny was alive for this because she would have laughed her ass off.

27:55 So good. Talk about an emotional rollercoaster. Holy cow, you guys exactly exactly. And you know, and I look at so for example, you know, my husband's family, they deal with things in a very different way. So had this happened with my husband's family, I think it would have been very like traumatic. And oh, it's even worse because you know, we don't know and is she really and this is so heartbreaking and the and it is heartbreaking, but also the world is ridiculous and absurd, and you have to find joy in those crazy moments because they exist. They're all over the place. And so if you can find a way to find the laughter and the joy even in the hard parts, then it makes it easier to.

28:45 Find the laughter and the joy and the easy parts. Amen. That is a beautiful thing to say, and so true. I aim to find joy and choose joy from the ground up is one of the things I do on the internet. I put my phone on the ground and pick up my phone. I want to say, what are you grateful for today? But like, joy from the ground up is about finding joy in those hard moments. And you've been very intentional about that, and like take it a step further, because not only do you intentionally create joy and pockets of joy in the challenge, but you also believe in like play like you. I think you have a hula hoop, like an adult hula hoop is true. My friend Karen Walrond, she had one, and I was like, I always wanted to hula hoop, but I can't. I can't keep it up. And she was like, oh, get an adult hula hoop. I'm like, like, it's just bigger.

29:35 Because I'm fatter. No that it didn't work when I was a kid, and she said, no, it's the there's a weight to it and it helps and you can keep it up. And so I bought one and I was like, oh my god, I'm hula hooping and it's so much fun. It's so ridiculous. I feel so ridiculous. He's just sitting watching Doctor Whom hula hooping in the living room like some kind of ten year old. But if it brings you joy, do it. Run after anything that brings you joy. There's not enough joy in life, and it's hard living in the world today. So every time that you can, you have to grab that joy because that's the thing that's going to heal you so that you have the fuel to.

30:21 Fight against the really hard things. Oh, Dottie agrees. Dotty agrees, Dottie. Dottie friends, Dottie had a little bit of a situation before we started taping, and we're paying very close attention to Dottie. Is her precious Doggie on her on her side right now, And we're very grateful for Dottie and I hope, Dotty's okay. So but Dottie agrees, and Dottie is joy from the ground up. Do you know what that was, Jenny, You know what that was? That was my Wiley saying hi. You know, I know that sounds crazy, but that was my Wiley saying hi. Oh boy ooh it was it was. It was literally you know what, we know it. It's beautiful and I'm grateful.

31:07 Who Hello, Let's talk more about Doctor Who. You watched a lot of Doctor Who with Haley, your your daughter, and you went through some some things with uh, just feeling like you were not doing enough as a mom. You would make mac and cheese macor uh, you know, not even like craft mac and cheese. I think you said microwave mac and cheese. You know, one one other step of mac mac and cheese. But and you would hang out, you'd watch Doctor Who. Can you talk us through what that meant to you and Haley and and how important it is to not be so dang hard on ourselves. Yes. So, so when Haley was little, I I struggled I still struggle with depression, but at the time I didn't know how to explain that to them. And so what I do is I would. And typically when my depression shows up, it's different for everybody, right, So for me, it is complete exhaustion to the point.

32:10 Where I really think. Usually the first couple of days, I'm like, oh, I have the flu, so I'm really really sick. And then if it doesn't pass in a couple of days, and I'm like, oh no, this is depression. This is like brain flu. So it's that it's an absolute numbness of emotion and a very uncomfortable numbness. And so when I would have those periods when I could not do anything, cook, couldn't clean, couldn't talk, I would sit on the couch, lay down on the couch and I would have Hayley say with me and we would binge watch Doctor Who. And when they got older, I guess there were maybe about twelve when I finally said so, I just wanted to First of all, I want to apologize because there's so many times when you know, we would sit on the couch and that was that was depression. That's what it looks like for me. And I know during those periods I should have been doing, you know, being in PTA and taking you to girl Scouts and you know, making dinner and all of these things, and I just couldn't.

33:24 But this is what it looked like. And I'm just I'm just really, I'm sorry, but I wanted you to know, like I try my hardest. And they said, those were some of my favorite memories because you were one hundred percent with me. You weren't off like, oh I've got a cook, Oh I've got a clean, Oh I've got a You were just right there. And it made me realize how often we judge ourselves on these standards of what we think we should be doing, when in fact, maybe we're supposed to be on that path, or maybe that path is not that bad, you know, maybe there are some good things that come with that.

34:09 I mean, I wouldn't ever choose. To have depression, but looking at it from Hayley's eyes, all of a sudden, I was like, you know what, there are some some silver linings to things. And there's probably a lot of things that I'm going through that are really hard, but that are making me take a slower pace, that are making me take a path that I wouldn't normally take, that are making me judge myself too hard, when in fact I'm actually doing okay, and probably everybody is doing better than they think they are. We all need to hear it, I think more than we should. But I agree with you. I think everybody in general is working and trying their best and trying their hardest, and we all need to remind ourselves of that frequently. Hailey is very special to you, and I know this, and I want to know what they have taught you, Like, what has what have you learned? And how have you become a better human because of Hailey?

35:18 Oh my gosh. They every single day they teach me, and I think, I mean, that's the way it should be, right, Like it shouldn't be a one sided thing, because if you think, oh, I've got all the answers, I knew I'm your mom, and so I know all the answers, and you get older and you're like. Oh, it turns out I screwed that up. And I think, actually, one of the things that has been really wonderful is they have taught me that every single person is unique. When when they. Were I want to say maybe maybe around twelve or so, they they were like, so I think I'm gay and and I'm bisexual, and so I was like, you know that it doesn't affect me one way or the other.

36:12 And so I was like, Oh, this is my chance to be the. Cool mom and do what I would have wanted had I, you know, said I was bisexual when I was you know, their age. And so I was. Like, oh, okay, okay, can you pass the syrup? Because I was just like yeah, whatever. And then later and I was like, oh, so look look at me. I'm not making a big deal out of it. I'm like accepting, I'm doing all the things right. And then later they were like, actually, that is not what I needed from you, because that was really hard for me. And you were just like no, big deal, big whoop. And what I really needed was for you to be like, oh my gosh, I'm so glad you shared that with me.

36:58 I'm so proud of you. I you know. And but to me, I was like, oh, no, that's this is the way that you're supposed to do it. And so one of the biggest things that that it taught me is that every single person is different, and so if you have this idea of like this is how I need to show up for someone is not necessarily going to be how you need to show up for someone else, and I think so often we're like, oh, I, you know, I should have done this with my kid, or I should have done this with my kid. But in the end, what it taught me is the ability to ask more and to be like, what is it you need from me? I still struggle with this on a regular basis. They will, you know, they'll they're off on college and they'll call and they'll say, you know, you know, somebody said something awful to me, or this happened or this happened. And my instinct is, I have to fix this, right, So I go into well have you tried this? Well? Have you tried this? Have you?

37:59 And I'm going through and turns out that's not what they want. What they want is to have someone say that sucks and not give them a whole list of and here are all the things I want you to do about it. And so what I have learned is to be able to ask when they say I'm having a problem with this or that, my first question is do you want me to listen to it or do you want advice? And let them kind of run the conversation. And so if they say, like I just want you to listen. Then I'm like, I think we should burn their house down, and it makes them laugh because it's so they're just like, wait, what did you say, and like I'm just saying I want to support you.

38:41 I don't know what else to say. I think we should go burn their house down, and then they laugh and okay, and then sometimes they're like, no, actually, I would like what would you do in my situation? But it's really helpful because I think a lot of times. Kids or partners or. I know, you know, if I give you feedback on here's what's going on in my life, this is maybe gonna make it worse. This is maybe going to you're gonna judge me, or you're gonna give me a list of things to do, or you're gonna judge how I handle it. And by instead saying what do you need from me?

39:22 Here? I want to be who you need from me can make such a difference, and then it also encourages them to give more, which is I mean, it's hard when you especially your kid, because they just want to be like I'm fine, I'm fine. Yeah, yeah, Well thank you for that. Because I gathered that we are all unique, right, like everybody's unique and as a result of that, like you know, pairing very perfectly with that, of course, is that we all have our ways that we process things, and it's worth it to take that extra thirty seconds and say what do you need from me right now? And that that can change and shift the energy of all of the things, and then we go burn the house down, right Like then we go burn the house down.

40:12 Yes, yeah, I'm not saying it's an either or it cray. And but I know exactly So speaking of fun words, I'm going to run through those book titles as I've said I would, and I want everybody to get your pens out or go to Amazon and order all these books, because you need all these books in my life, in your life. I have them all, but they're all on loan right now. They were going to be like lined up behind me, all pretty but all of my friends I have lots of friends who read, and they're all on loan. So go get these books. Are called the first one, Let's Pretend This Never Happened, A mostly true memoir, Furiously Happy, A funny book about horrible things. You are here, an owner's manual for Dangerous Minds, Broken in the best possible way, and how to be okay with nothing is okay.

41:01 Tips and tricks that kept me alive, happy, and creative in spite of myself. You guys, these titles and their taglines are everything. So Jenny, quick, before you forget, what's a story from your books that you love telling? I think. There are so there are so many that I love for different reasons. But I think one of my favorites is the when I was in New York and I was on book tour and they had me at a hotel that was like right on Times Square ish area, and like you could look out and see all of these places that I've just only seen, you know, on TV before, and I wanted to go explore, and I couldn't because my anxiety just it was just too high.

41:57 And so I was like all. Dressed up and could not, like literally had my hand on the door at the hotel room and could not make myself walk out of the hotel room. And so I went back and I sat. Next to the window, and I was crying and feeling really bad for myself and like a failure. And I looked down and there was this fountain, and the fountain looked like like dandelions, and each one of the little dandelions sort of leaves had a little spray coming off of it, and there all of a sudden looked like it was on fire, but the fire was a rainbow, and it was the you know, from catching the light, catching the sun, and I've never seen anything like it before or after. It was so incredibly beautiful, and I thought, it is so strange because I'm looking down there, thinking, oh, everybody's going to be like, oh my god, what is happening?

43:02 And nobody noticed it, And I thought, are people just so used to beauty or are they just so used to they're not looking? And then I realized that that's not it at all. It was because I was so high up in the hotel, I was the only person who was seeing it from that ankle, and I would never have seen that had I left the hotel room. Which is not to say, you know, yay for agoraphobia, but that sometimes even when your brain doesn't work, even sometimes when you're in a situation that you don't want to be in, there may still be magic and joy in that, and you can still find that there.

43:46 Is magic enjoy in that that is the best story. I did go to Times Square because this book, Tribes of Transformation, was displayed in Times Square. It's the best selling book that I was honored to be a part of. And I went and I had that anxiety and I did the thing. And the way that my body felt alive that night was like nothing I've ever experienced because I had not been a time score, let alone wandering around by myself. I gave my mother, my poor mother, I love her, and she was so happy for me, and she was like, what are you doing? Because she she has me on lock on her phone. She knows where I'm at at all times, so she's like, why you know. I'm so sorry mom that I gave you the worst anxiety that day. But I went. I did.

44:28 I did the thing for both of us, Jenny. And what's really cool is the rainbow, Like you saw rainbow and like again I you know, friends for those of you that don't know, Jenny and I did talk once before, and it was like in a former life, and I felt this just connection to her, much like I think most of your readers do. You know, you just connect with us on such a deep level. I felt this very very personal connection to you, and I'm so grateful that we connected so deeply, so quickly, because it makes sense to me now, Like there's just these like synchronicities that you know, lined up with you know, Wiley and the rainbow. I I you know, I believe that. You know, my chapter in this book is called Becoming the Storm, and there's a there's an acronym in there, but the rainbows follow storms, right, So like there's a lot of rainbow theming in a lot of what I'm trying to build from the ground up over here and here, my friend Jenny just shares the most beautiful story about finding joy in a rainbow in Times Square, which is just so cosmic for me. So I just want to And it's eleven eleven right now where I'm at. So friends, this is, oh my.

45:36 Gosh, synchronicity. I totally believe in synchronicity, a little little little signs from the universe of like all right, you're not alone, It's okay, it's gonna be all right. From from the universe and from like literally connections and friends that we make that we you know, we don't we miss some of this sometimes, like you said, you know, the people, Why are they missing it because they didn't have your perspective? They they and then that's there's a lot there, there's a lot there. Yeah. Yeah, I don't even I don't even know how to out go back to what I was talking about, because I am blown away by the synchronicities. Taxidermy seems like a good place to go from there, Right, let's go, let's go.

46:24 There actual progression. Obviously, you love taxidermy, your dad your dad does or did taxidermy. He still does the taxidermy shop, he still does. And at the same time, your writing preserves these very real, raw human moments. So I feel a little bit like storytelling in some ways is kind of like taxidermy, keeping pieces of your life from being forgotten. What do you think I could absolutely see that. Yeah. Yeah. One of the at least two of the my books have taxidermy animals on the cover, and and I really I was like, there's no way they're gonna let me do that, And then they did.

47:11 It was so awesome. It's funny. So my house is filled with taxid army, but it's it's people call it ethical taxid army because it's basically, like I find like old pieces that are falling apart in like the State sales or you know, it's roadkill or something like that. And I take them and then I dressed them up and so there's no there's no animal here, that's just a taxidermy animal. It's like, oh, here's like a little deckling. But also what if she was Marie Antoinette And here's you know, the just absolute ridiculousness, you know, a full mouse circus with you know, all the little taxidermy mice. They're all doing different stuff. My my wall over here is actually, let's see if I can move it so you can see.

48:03 Oh, yeah, are the raccoons? I need to see a raccoon. Where's the there's Rory the rectory. There he is, yeah, and there's there's another. Can't can't get high enough. It's okay. And then who was your favorite? Rory? Definitely, although I do really like he's on the other wall so you can't see it. But I have this taxidermid boehead. And then I called James Garfield and he is, Oh my gosh, so ridiculous. I saw him at Interstate Sale, just the he's got this enormous smile, he's missing a tooth. He's he looks I'm sorry, James, he looks awful, but he looks so happy. And so when I saw him, I was like, I have to have this guy. And the Victure was like, absolutely not, this is ridiculous. I think he was like ninety dollars, which was a lot of money back then and it's still a lot of money now. But and I was like, I have to have him. And we went home without him, and I was so sad. And then the next day we went back and everything was half priced, and Victor came out me it was holding James Carfield had like roll in his eyes the entire time, and he said, he was like, I can't believe you got this. This is so And I thought, okay, I'm never gonna hear the end.

49:19 Of how much we spent for this bore. So here's what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna make Christmas cards. And so I dressed them up in like a full Christmas garb, you know, very kind of Scroogey. And then I made these handmade, these little Christmas cards and I was like, Okay, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna go online and I just need like ten people to buy a Christmas card and then I. Will have paid off James Garfield. And what happened was like a thousand people were like I want one, I want one, and so James Garfield was like pulling in cash and I was like, this is found money. Let's do something fun. And so I with that many and I was like, Okay, if you were struggling this year. It was during like Christmas Honka.

50:06 I was like, if you're struggling this year and you need some help, just put a little link to whatever it is that you want on Amazon for your kids and I'll feel as many as as many wishes as I can. And I was like, you know, try to keep it around. I think I think it was like forty dollars each. And so I went and I. You know, spent the night and I was going and filling wishes and then I was like I'm at the end of like I've spent more than I probably should, but I'm gonna I'll come back tomorrow and let me see if I can find some more money. And then but when I came back, there were all these people who were like, well, I want to I want to fill one and I want to feel one. And so people had gone in into the wish lists and they were all filling them, all these strangers helping total strangers.

50:55 And so we called it the James Garfield Miracle, and we have done it for I want to say, sixteen years in a row of just strangers helping strangers. To get kids. A toy, you know, a stuffed animal or something you know, sweet to open up. And it's so funny because it's such a strange that it started with this bore. Actually when in for some reason, Canada did a big story on it, there was this Canadian like primetime Canadian news did a story on it, but they didn't say anything about James Garfield. They were just like, oh what, they were like, let's talk about this. And so I went into a news studio and I had James Garfield was like propped up behind me. But they never said anything about James Garfield and I didn't either. So it looked like I had just brought my emotional support wild War, which is like, I mean, it's it's e I mean, it's enormous, enormous.

52:00 Yes, emotional support World War. That's gonna be a new. Thing, Yeah, but just a head. Just just the only the head. That's an amazing story. Strangers helping strangers is like the most wholesome thing on the internet. You are so like what your light brings, so much light that is so contagious into the world. And I'm gonna I'm gonna have to go back there because I don't want to forget to ask you more questions. First, that's my ending time. I'm going I'm skipping ahet in myself. I believe here a lot of we we've talked through a lot of the mental health stuff and some of the mindset stuff around that. Not so much movement, but that's okay, we don't need to go there today. But music, I'm curious about. Do you have a song of survival that you go to that grounds you when times feel chaotic around you?

52:54 There is a song that this is going to sound ridiculous, but it's called My Vagina is eight Miles and it is anthemic. It is so fantastic. If I am people will ask me like if I They're like, oh, do you have a song that you want us to play as you're walking out on stage? And that's what I always request. Beautiful, It is you absolutely need to go at a storm large I think is who sings it, and it is just. I love it. Thank you, and we will I will include it in the show notes for everybody, because that's very special. What is one message that you if I gave you, like a megaphone that the world kind of had to listen to? Like, you know, I'm trying to figure out how to better say this question because I've been saying forced and I don't want to force anybody to listen to anybody. But if I strongly encouraged the world to pay attention to what Jenny Lawson has to say right now, speaking on a megaphone to the world, what would you say.

54:00 If I could make them believe it? I would say be kind because I think kindness is something that's sort of missing a lot right now, and not just kindness to each other, but kindness to ourselves. But because I believe that probably most of the people that I would say, you know, be kind, are probably already kind, and the other people would be like, okay, you can't tell me what to do, and I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. So instead, I guess I would say depression lies because it does so cunningly, and every single time I'm in a depression, every time I have to remind myself my depression is telling me lies and all of the things that it is saying that I'm worthless, that the world would be better off without me, that none of those things are accurate, and that I just have to hold on long enough that I come out and can look back and go, oh wait, wait, that was my depression. That was an illness taking over my brain.

55:06 And that's not true. It's not But when you're in there, it is impossible. To not hear those lies. So if there is somebody out there and they are right now struggling, I would say, you're not alone. Reach out for help. There are so many people who love you, and you put out ripples in the universe that you have no clue how much you affect other people in wonderful, incredible ways. You are doing so much better than you think. You just have to wait until you get out so that you can see that firsthand. Until then, just trust me, you are so worth it. You are worth asking for the help. You're worth the work that it takes. And it is work. It is hard, and it's time consuming, and it takes money, and it's very easy to say, oh I really don't need that medication, or oh I don't really need that therapist, or oh I don't need to call a crisis helpline.

56:15 But you deserve all of that. You deserve every bit of help that you need, and everybody does. And I always try to tell people like, if the things that you're saying in your brain say those same things about somebody that you love, so instead I would be like, okay, so those same things that I'm thinking, if my kid was thinking that, I would be like, oh my god, how could you possibly think that that is what? And so if it's not true for them, it's probably not true for me either, And it's probably not true for any of you out there who are listening and are thinking those things. What do you do on days when you because asking for help is part of it, right, and understanding that help exists does not asking for help does not equal failure too, and it doesn't mean you're broken and all of that. You know, you walk through that very beautifully, but also, what do you do when your brain just won't when your brain won't cooperate? How do you work through that?

57:16 So lots of different things. I have a ton of tools that I have put together, and in my soul, I have treatment resistant depression, which means that I've gone through I want to say it's more than eight different types of treatment. Is when you get to treatment to be called treatment resistant, and that doesn't mean that treatment doesn't help it does. It just means that it's not you're probably not going to find a cure. And so so I know going in I'm going to continue to have these depressive periods for probably the rest of my life. But a couple of things.

57:56 First that when I'm not in a depression, I grab hold of life and I'm like, I deserve to have fun, I deserve to take care of myself, and so that's one of them. The other thing is. Finding those tools sort of in advance, which can be really hard because when you're depressed, you have the least amount of energy you will ever have, and that's when you have to be on your your your biggest guard. Right. So one of the things that I do. Is I have in my phone and I highly recommend this for everybody, find crisis help lines and look at look beforehand, look when you're not even in danger and go and find a really good one and put it in your phone under you know, if in danger, call this number. And the great thing about that is you may never use it, but if you do use it, you've already done the research. Because sometimes there are some of those crisis lines that you'll call and they'll be like, sounds like you're too gay or what you know? You don't know, right, So if you do a little bit of research, you can be like, oh, okay, okay, And there's different ones for are you a person of column, are you queer, are you whatever it is? Are you a teen?

59:12 Are you? So you can find that I have found that really helpful. Sometimes I will say like I need help finding a doctor. They can help in that way. Sometimes it's just you need somebody to sit with you on the phone during like the dangerous small hours, to just kind of sit there. The other thing is realizing that when a treatment fails for you does not mean that you failed. And it's so easy. Like if you have cancer and you're like, oh, okay, well you know the chemo didn't work, so now we're going to go to surgery. You didn't go like, well, you failed chemo, so I don't think you deserve surgery.

59:54 We would never do that, So why do we do that. With depression where it's like, well, that medication you know, stopped working or didn't work. So I guess I'm just gonna raw dog life for the No. Instead, you have to continually work. I have tried transcranial magnetic stimulation, which is very helpful, but it took a lot of time. I do still take antidepressants, which help, they just don't They're not enough to completely get over. I do every six weeks or so. I have ketamine injections by a doctor, which have been really helpful. Super scary.

1:00:39 I got a pre warn you. Nobody told me that, Like I was, like, what the stuff that I didn't do in college? Ah, that's you know, Yeah, you go out and dance at a rave and you know this is this is a very different, different setting, different different everything. But it's been really helpful. And so going out and finding those things. Are are important to you, they're important to your. Family, and they are they are worth the They aren't expensive. They are time consuming, they are tiring and exhausting, and you know, finding support can be really hard, but it is absolutely worth.

1:01:24 It, and you should get Jenny Lawson's new book called How to Be Okay When Things Are Not Okay, because there are tips in that book that are very practical and real. And had the crew of the Good Morning America drooling. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you need to go see what was happening there. And I thought it was so funny because my friend Jenny was nervous about being on the show and then she literally went on the show and she made the entire crew drool on air. It was great. It was so good. But the reason behind it was is amazing, and it is that like, scientifically, and you can you can feed into this however you want, but scientifically we can trick ourselves into triggering dopamine. Are doing nish right like you and people who are listening are like, what just happened?

1:02:19 I put my I put my pen in my mouth and it made me smile, which is the weirdest, most ugly smell you've ever seen. But the point is when your face smiles, you trigger dopamine and serotonin in your brain, whether you're like doing it because you want to or you're doing it because you have a pencil in your mouth. So talk us through that situation on the Today Show. Yeah, so they wanted to talk about different tools that were available, and that that's one of them. There's a lot of other good ones that don't involve pencils in your mouth, guys, so exactly. And yeah, and I, you know, explained it. And I they had some pencils there, and I was like, so everybody, you put that, and so everybody.

1:03:01 Put their the pencil in their mouth. And then I started to talk about, you know, different things, but I still had the pencil in my mouth, and so I was like, we're all gonna drill, and I think we did a little bit. I also, uh, for some reason, started talking about anxiety diarrhea, and then I was like, I don't know what to do with my hands. And then I and I say that and literally my hands are up right now. I'm constantly doing this and then so then I sit on my hands and then immediately pulled them back out because my hands are like, no, you need to be up in your face. It was so ridiculous. I watched it once and oh my god. And then I started talking about my foot falling off. I didn't even say it the right way. I said my foot fall off, which I don't know. And my uh so Haley called right after and they were like.

1:03:44 Mom, I'm so proud of you. Oh my god, dude, it's so good. But my foot fall off and so and so now that is my constant. I need to make a T shirt that just says. My footfall literally. Merch people will are people. We will buy it by footprint, footfall off rich ideas one oh one. It's a good time. It's always a party here. Okay. Is there anything specific that I didn't ask you that you would like to share? No, you're great. You have asked such good questions. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. You know, I'm new with this, and I am very grateful that so far that seems to be what people think is that I do ask good questions, and I appreciate that you say that. So before we wrap, I do have one more, one more question, and it has to do with something that existed in a prior life that we don't that you don't do anymore. And I'm so I'm so excited and so proud of you that you don't have to do it anymore. An in an interview or something you used to write on your arm something like pretend you are good at this. Pretend you are good at this, And then you shared a story of how people would come up to you and cross out that word pretend because Jenny, my friend, you are good at this, and I am proof because you have a way of leaving a light in the world behind you after you've left that space, whether it's in your writing, whether it's in a room, whether it's in you know, the the

1:05:17 on the internet, in a blog post, and it's it's personal for me. So I want to take a second and thank you for saying something that has lived rent free in my mind about two years ago, and I'm going to read it so that I don't get it wrong. It says, sometimes the path that you go down doesn't look right to other people, but the path, but it is the path that you're supposed to be going down. You find your own journey. And for the friends that have been with me on this journey, that is the quick before you forget podcasts. So far, I've talked quite a bit about my yellow brick road, and that thought has been a light for me to keep me going, to keep me showing up, to keep me you know, doing this thing that I that I believe in with my whole heart. So Jenny, thank you because you are good at this and we as a people that have found your content and loved it for all these years, are so grateful for you. So I have nothing more to say than thank you. I'm grateful for you. And we'll see you guys next time on Quick Before You Forget Awesome.

1:06:27 Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for being here. Bye, thank you for being here with me today on Quick Before You Forget. Please like, share and subscribe as that helps the show so much and I really appreciate it. And I'll see you next time on Quick Before You Forget.