June 22, 2026

How to Be Okay When Nothing Is Okay: How Depression Lies, Creativity Heals, and Joy Still Matters

How to Be Okay When Nothing Is Okay: How Depression Lies, Creativity Heals, and Joy Still Matters

What happens when your brain won't cooperate but you refuse to stop living anyway? This conversation feels personal in more ways than I expected. I laughed so hard my face hurt. We cried together too. And somewhere between stories about panic...

What happens when your brain won't cooperate but you refuse to stop living anyway?

This conversation feels personal in more ways than I expected.

I laughed so hard my face hurt. We cried together too. And somewhere between stories about panic attacks, people being chased by pigs, depression, ADHD, hula hoops, taxidermy, rainbow fountains, and hiding under tables, something beautiful happened.

The #1 New York Times bestselling author Jenny Lawson (The Bloggess) joined me for one of the most honest conversations I've ever had on Quick Before You Forget.

Together we talked about anxiety, depression, creativity, finding your people, parenting, self-acceptance, and why sometimes the very things that make us feel broken are the things that help others feel less alone. Jenny shares stories about navigating treatment-resistant depression, discovering community through writing, finding healing through humor, embracing her wonderfully unconventional creativity, and learning to run toward joy wherever she can find it.

We also discuss her newest book, How to Be Okay When Nothing Is Okay, and the practical tools that have helped her keep going through some of life's darkest moments. But this episode became something more than that for me.

There was a moment involving Jenny's dog Dottie that stopped both of us in our tracks and felt so divinely timed that I still get emotional thinking about it. My Wiley said hello that day. Yes, from his perch along the Rainbow Bridge. I know it sounds impossible. Just wait until you hear or see it.

If you've ever struggled with anxiety, depression, ADHD, burnout, grief, self-doubt, feeling different, or wondering whether you'll ever find your people, this conversation is for you. And if you've ever needed a reminder that you're not alone, you have found your people here.

In This Episode
✔️ Why "depression lies"
✔️ How humor shrinks life's biggest monsters
✔️ Living with ADHD and embracing creativity
✔️ Finding your people by being yourself
✔️ Parenting, perfectionism, and self-compassion
✔️ Mental health tools that actually help
✔️ Why joy matters more than ever
✔️ The healing power of storytelling and human connection
✔️ Taxidermy, emotional support wild boars, and other things I never expected to discuss

Memorable Quotes

"It's going to be okay."

"Depression lies."

"Run after anything that brings you joy."

"If they love that in her, maybe they'll love that in me too."

"You are doing so much better than you think."

About Jenny Lawson

Jenny Lawson, affectionately known as The Bloggess, is a #1 New York Times bestselling author, award-winning humorist, columnist, and mental health advocate. Her books include Let's Pretend This Never Happened, Furiously Happy, You Are Here, Broken (in the Best Possible Way), and How to Be Okay When Nothing Is Okay.

One more thing: Jenny's song of survival is "Eight Miles Wide" by Storm Large. Trust me: you'll want to look it up after this episode. 💛 ⚡️ ❤️‍🩹 🌈 🦋

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Let me guess Grannie's alive again. And I was like, no,

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she really is, and she was like, wait, I was

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just joking. And I was like, oh no, no, she's

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like a zombie. And then my mom calls again and

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my mom goes, she's dead again.

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She's dead again.

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And she was like, it's okay, it's okay, she's dead again. Ana.

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I laughed so hard, and my mom laughed and my

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sister and it was the most healing, wonderful and I

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was like, I wish Granny was alive for this, because

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she would have laughed her ass off.

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Jenny Laws and welcome to Quick before you forget.

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Oh my gosh, I'm so glad to be here. I've

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had an extremely crazy morning and this I have been

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looking forward to this, so.

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Yeah, let's do this.

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I've been looking forward to it. My friends and my

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family have not heard me shut up about it because

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I'm just so stinking excited, because you guys. Jenny, who

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is also affectionately known as the bloggis like mother Teresa,

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only better, is also a number one New York Times

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bestselling author and multiple New York Times bestselling author. I

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might add she is also a columnist an award winning

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humorist and someone who has turned some of life's hardest

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mental health battles into connection, creativity, and chances for laughter.

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In her newest book, How to Be Okay When Nothing

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Is Okay, she shares raw, real and often hilarious tools

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that have helped her keep going even when her brain

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is where looking against her. Especially then, if you've ever

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wondered how to keep creating, living and finding light when

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things feel heavy, this is going to be a conversation

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for you. So I am so pumped. I'm so ready.

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And I think that Jenny, storytelling as you are a

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you were like blogging before anybody was blogging, and you

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know all about this art of storytelling. But I do

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believe that storytelling is our superpower. So I want us

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to walk through like past, present, and future kind of together,

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starting with a story about a person that made an

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impact on you as a younger human that has continued

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to have an impact later in life.

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I would say the person that has had the biggest

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impact is probably my mom. She is she would say

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that she's incredibly boring, and you know the sheat every

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time I call, she's like, well you got to talk.

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I got nothing, but she is the kindest person that

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I've ever met, And throughout my life, whenever I want

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to be a better person, I just think like, what

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would my mom do? What would my mom tell me.

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To do here?

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What?

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How?

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What would she react when I when I don't want

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to do something, But then I but I know it's

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something I need to be doing.

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I think.

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My mom would be proud of me later. You know,

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this is something that later I can be like, oh,

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look I did this thing, and she'll go, oh, I'm

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so proud of you.

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But at the same time she's also.

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Accepting and loving, and then I can say, oh, I

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you know got offered.

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You know this great thing that anybody else would.

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Just die for, but I can't do it because it's

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just it's just too much for me. She's like, yeah,

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you don't need you don't need that, You're cool, don't

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worry about it. And so I try to bring that forward,

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that same sort of energy with.

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My kid and with my own life. I don't always succeed,

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but I try well.

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Trying matters, you know, and your mom, you know, I

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appreciate that she supported you in ways that you needed

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to be supported. Particularly, I don't know, and if you've

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talked about this, I apologize publicly, But like you did

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she encourage you to start writing? Can you walk us

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through like how you got started in writing, because I

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know you've been writing since you were a very little girl.

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Yeah.

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No, she she encouraged me to always read. And I

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think that there is a natural progression for a lot

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of people that if you read a lot, then you

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want to.

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Tell your own stories.

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And so she When I think back to my childhood,

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that's one of the things that I remember the most is,

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you know, walking to the bookmobile and her, you know,

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sitting with this giant stack of books and being like, okay,

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you pick one, your sister picks the one. You pick one,

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your sister picks one. And then you know, when she

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wasn't reading the she was reading to herself, and so

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she was modeling that idea. And so I think because

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because I saw what the written word could do, it

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made it easier for me to find my own words

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that way, especially because my anxiety was so extremely high

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at the time and at the time, you know, when

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you know this seventies eighties, No, if you said, like

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I have an anxiety disorder, they would be like what,

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because I wouldn't. Nobody in my family would have known

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what that meant. We had all been huh, never heard

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of that before. My mom was like, you just have

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a nervous tummy, and I was like, yeah, feels more

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than that, but maybe maybe. And so I was able

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to because my anxiety was so strong. I found that

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writing notes to people, like in class was much easier

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than talking to people. And slowly I discovered like journaling

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and you know, diary writing, which I think can be

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so incredibly helpful and and I'm glad that I because

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I was looking through recently, I found one of my

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diaries from seventh grade and I'm looking through her. O gosh,

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oh it's so cringey, it's so oh my god.

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But you know, that's how you start, you know, you

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have to start and.

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Do it wrong and try out different personalities and then

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go back and be like, oh, I wasn't this, like,

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you know, punk rocker that I thought I was going

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to be this month, And then the next month I

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was like, well, maybe I'm this, and maybe I'm then.

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I don't know. It's interesting being able to see it

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all on paper.

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What do you think she was trying to unpack, like

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what oh hold on to because so like Matthew McConaughey

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said this really cool thing once about how we don't

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write things down to remember, we write things down to forget.

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So it makes me wonder what seventh grade Jenny was

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trying to hold on to slash forget way back then,

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like can you can you can you walk us through it?

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Yeah? I think she was trying to forget how awkward

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she felt, how scared she felt that she would never

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fit in. I think that there was a lot of

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you know, I think everybody when they're in especially you know,

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elementary and middle school, high school, all the way through.

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For me until college, I just felt like there's nobody

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like me. And not in a good way, not like

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I'm so special, I'm incredible, but like there's something I'm

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very broken in a very different way. People know it,

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people can tell it just by looking at me. And

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especially because the Internet didn't exist at that time.

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And so.

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That that tiny little world that you had felt like

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it was everything. And so when I got out into

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the world and I started writing and blogging, I all

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of a sudden I found all of these other people

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who were the same weird and the same awkward and

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the same you know, strange sense of humor that I have, and.

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You realize.

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It's like, okay, So I would say there's probably ten

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percent of the people in the world are like my

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people who go, oh my god, I totally get it.

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We're on the same level. We can laugh at the

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same things, we can laugh at a funeral and totally

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understand what we're talking about. And those people add up,

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right if you can find them all of a sudden,

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you're like, we're legion. There's so many of us.

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But it's so easy.

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When you're in like a small little world to be like, oh, okay,

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well I reached out to these nine people and I

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didn't fit in with any of them, so it must

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be something with me, when it's really not. It's just

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about finding your people.

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I love that you did that by being yourself like you.

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You found your people by just showing up as yourself,

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starting for you only like you started to show up

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for you. You chose to show up for you, And

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there's such power in that, Like people need to understand

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that it's okay to show up and it's okay to

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first of all, not fit in right but then like,

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it's okay to show up as yourself. In fact, it's

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so good and so healthy and so normal to show

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up fully and authentically you. And when you do that,

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you're crazy finds crazy, right like our people find us.

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And it's this beautiful thing. And I'm so grateful that

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you've done that, because you've had this profound You've created

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this safe space for people to feel like they can

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show up authentically as themselves and they're not gonna scare

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everybody away. And it reminds me of a story that

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I remember you shared. I don't know if it was

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in a book or on a podcast, but you shared

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a story of being at a conference or a book

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signing and hiding under a table. Do you remember this story?

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Yeah, Okay, that through happened.

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That has happened multiple times. Whenever I get really, really anxious,

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and I will say this hasn't happened in the last

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maybe three or four years, I'm I'm feeling a little

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proud of myself, but at the same time, I know

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at any moment it could happen. But yeah, when when

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I would and my anxiety was really high, I realized

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that this is the safest place right, You just you

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get underneath the table.

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You get it underneath the desk.

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When I was a kid, I used to hide inside

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my toy box and take all the toys out. I'd

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get at a wooden toy box, I close it, and

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there's something very safe about that. And so on a

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you know, if at a blogging conference and I start

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to have a panic attack, I'm like, I'm gonna I'll

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see you guys later, and I'd go underneath the table.

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As a matter of fact, that.

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Happened once, and another person that was at the table

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was like, I'm gonna go with you, and so she

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came down there. And then another person was like, Okay,

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well it seems like you guys are having more fun.

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And so we were just all sitting underneath the table

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and it was fantastic and we just like had our

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own little, our own little tent.

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It was amazing.

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But yeah, I there was one time when I was

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doing a speaking thing and it was this was maybe fun.

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Maybe ten years ago, I started to have a panic attack,

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and it was they hadn't brought the people in yet,

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and they had there was like a little table stand

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beside where my seat was.

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Where I was going to.

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Be doing the stuff and it had a tablecloth, and

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I was like, I'm just gonna duck under here for

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a minute because I need like some private space and

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I can't get because normally I'll just go to the bathroom.

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But I couldn't get to the bathroom because I'd have

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to go through all the people, and so I was like,

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I'm just gonna So I got underneath there and I

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was just you know, I had my phone and I

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was just doing some deep breathing and I was it

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was all good. And then they opened the doors that

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all these people came in and I was like, oh shit,

224
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I'm stuck under here. Everybody's gonna see me climb out

225
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from underneath that. So really I heard people like walking

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around going where is she? I don't know.

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Have you seen her?

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I don't know. And I had to like climb out

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of the and not in like a graceful way, like

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climb out of you know, the tablecloth is like sticking Jimmy.

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So I'm pulling this still. It was, but.

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You know what, if you show up that way, I

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think it gives people some comfort because they're like, okay,

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all right, you know what, all bets are off. If

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she can hide underneath the table on the stage, then

236
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it's okay.

237
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If I screw something up too.

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Found some community under that table with some people that

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like were like, this is more fun. And there was

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a time too where some like you got you were

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under the table, and then there was like somebody farther

242
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away that was also under a table, and I felt

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this level of like I felt seen, but I also

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felt like this this connection that happens again when you

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just show up authentically you like you, You made her

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feel less alone, which is like such an important thing

247
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and such a special thing that you do with your content.

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You know, you you bring life and light and levity

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to really hard things. And later when I walk through

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some of your book titles, I make I made a

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note and an effort to make sure that we talked

252
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through the taglines of those book titles because they're so

253
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good and people need to stand by for that because

254
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it's so good. But sometimes sometimes you're writing as a

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result of some of the honestly, like I believe we

256
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have you have adhd as do I so as and

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as I understand at a level that some might not

258
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that there's some amount of your writing that feels like

259
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it might be unfinished, Like there's some things about it

260
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that don't feel quite done, but like in a good way.

261
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So like why to you, Like, why is it important

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to show the mess instead of always cleaning it up?

263
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I think for two reasons.

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One, I don't have the ability to clean it up

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and so and a lot of people are like, oh,

266
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you're so brave for you know this and that, But

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but I kind of don't feel like I am because

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I don't. It's not a choice that I actively made.

269
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It's just this is who I am, right the I

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think it's I think it can be really helpful because

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it lets people realize that there are no real rules.

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When I wrote my first book, I did it in

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a very weird way. And you know, my first book

274
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came out almost fifteen years ago, and when it came out,

275
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you know, confessional essays that wasn't new, but the way

276
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that I was writing it with like these run on

277
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sentences and all these footnotes and these like weird a

278
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sides and the and talking to the reader, and it

279
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was something that hadn't been done in that way, and

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I thought, well, this is going to really limit whether

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it'll you know, find an audience whether it'll sell, and instead,

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what I found is that that weirdness made it stand

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out in such a way that people really they related

284
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to it, and it sort of taught other people, Oh, there,

285
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if there are no.

286
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Rules, what if I do this?

287
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What if I do and then we all win because

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then you've got like all of these great books kind

289
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of out or great pieces of art or great things,

290
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and every time somebody breaks the rules, you go, oh, oh, well,

291
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then if they can do that, then maybe I can

292
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do And I think it also helps people to see

293
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that there's beauty in the brokenness or in the strangeness,

294
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especially because so often I've had people who have said,

295
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I have never been able to read any books except

296
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for yours, because my ADHD makes it really hard to concentrate.

297
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But for some reason, with your writing, I can read them,

298
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And I suspect I suspect part of it is because

299
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I write in very little sort of ways, and so

300
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it's easier to duck in and duck out. And with me,

301
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with ADHD, I'm very like, you know, I'm going to

302
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do something for you know, fifteen minutes, and then I'm like,

303
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what's over here, squirrel? But also I think it's really

304
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lovely that they can look at it and go, oh,

305
00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:07.240
this person is messed up in the same way that

306
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I am, and other people love that, and if they

307
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love that in her, maybe they'll love that in me

308
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as well.

309
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Well, thank you, because you've given me the creative I

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guess I don't even know permission is the right Is

311
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that the right word, but like you've given me the

312
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creative permission to think outside the box in similar ways

313
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where I too tend to write sometimes in a way

314
00:17:28.920 --> 00:17:34.279
that feels very disjointed to me even but it all

315
00:17:34.359 --> 00:17:37.119
kind of ends up coming together in this way that

316
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I would much rather be real and I would much

317
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rather just like sometimes ramble on or side note or

318
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strike through or whatever. And it's just like, as I'm

319
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working on my book, like I am being, I'm letting

320
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myself have that freedom to like just flow and think.

321
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And because I do think that there's going to be

322
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people that see themselves in these stories, and if they're

323
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not perfectly tied up with a pretty little ribbon and

324
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there's a comma in the wrong place, they'll forgive me.

325
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So thank you for giving us writers and creators and

326
00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:13.240
artists the permission to own our mess, I guess a

327
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little bit. And one of the one of the stories

328
00:18:16.119 --> 00:18:18.680
that comes to mind as like an unfinished one, and

329
00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:20.880
I don't know if it ever did get finished. So

330
00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:23.359
this is like a this is this is a like

331
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real Jenny Loss and fan question. Then whatever happened to

332
00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:31.759
your sister getting chased by the pig? Did that ever?

333
00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:33.400
Did that story ever wrap?

334
00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:36.119
Uh? You know, but it really didn't. I mean, she

335
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got chased by it. And then the I want to say,

336
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the third grade teacher came out and chased the pig

337
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back into the.

338
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Into the gate.

339
00:18:46.359 --> 00:18:48.279
And yeah, I think that was one of those that

340
00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:50.680
went off in in a weird tangent. And you know

341
00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:54.920
what's really interesting is I kind of want to We said, okay,

342
00:18:54.920 --> 00:18:56.759
so the same So we live right next to a

343
00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:00.480
pig farm, and and there's it was our house, and

344
00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:01.880
then you'd walk a little bit, and then there was

345
00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:03.400
the school, and then you'd walk a little bit, and

346
00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:06.519
then there was the pig farm. And they were show pigs.

347
00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:11.119
They were fancy pigs, but oh they like pigs. There.

348
00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:17.720
It was a very but the pigs ended up when

349
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I was older, they ended up getting into the house

350
00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:26.480
and the pigs like lived inside the house and would

351
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like go upstairs and downstairs and everything. And then I

352
00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:33.440
heard that the people who lived there were like, forget it,

353
00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:34.000
we'll just buy it.

354
00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:35.839
We'll just build a new house.

355
00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:37.400
And so they had their own house and they'll just

356
00:19:37.480 --> 00:19:39.480
let the pigs live in the other house. I'm not

357
00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:41.559
sure if that's true. It may have just been something

358
00:19:41.559 --> 00:19:44.920
that my sister told me. But I have loved this

359
00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:47.119
story so much and I want to write a whole

360
00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:50.920
story of just these pigs living in this house. I

361
00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:52.960
don't know. I just think it's ridiculous and I love it.

362
00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:55.519
It's so good. And the thing that we're missing, that

363
00:19:55.559 --> 00:19:58.039
the nugget that we're missing is that those mama pigs

364
00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:02.079
are so protect dive of their baby pigs. And it

365
00:20:02.279 --> 00:20:05.039
actually the reason that the story like stood out and

366
00:20:05.079 --> 00:20:08.039
stands out to me to this day is I too,

367
00:20:08.119 --> 00:20:11.920
once got chased by pigs at the state fair, and

368
00:20:12.279 --> 00:20:15.480
that mama pig chased and I'll never forget, Like I

369
00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:19.799
can picture the barn and the like my dad running

370
00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:22.039
and it was this whole thing that I got chased

371
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by these pigs at the state fair because those mamas

372
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get protective of their babies.

373
00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:30.079
Oh my gosh, and they're big and they are they'll

374
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hurt you. I mean they've got they've got Yeah, yeah.

375
00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:36.920
They're not they're not messing around.

376
00:20:36.920 --> 00:20:39.799
But so they should call them pigs.

377
00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:44.720
Because honestly, truly like unrecognizably dangerous and you wouldn't you

378
00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:45.880
wouldn't You wouldn't guess it.

379
00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:46.839
You wouldn't.

380
00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:48.799
You wouldn't you think they're like, oh, they're so lazy.

381
00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:52.759
They're fast when they want to be. I know, yes, terrifying.

382
00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:56.000
You're screaming at you. They sound like a woman screaming.

383
00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:02.319
It's yeah, I'm curious that what Jenny, what you would

384
00:21:02.359 --> 00:21:04.880
tell twenty two year old you if you could.

385
00:21:06.440 --> 00:21:13.359
I would say, it's going to be okay. It's interesting

386
00:21:13.519 --> 00:21:18.279
how often when I think of what I was going

387
00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:21.799
through in the past and what I at each stage

388
00:21:21.799 --> 00:21:26.200
of my life, especialially because my anxiety was so strong,

389
00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:28.599
every time I would think.

390
00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:32.039
Is this the end? Am I going to get through this?

391
00:21:32.519 --> 00:21:33.680
Am I going to survive this?

392
00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:39.079
And I always think, in every situation, if I could

393
00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:41.920
go back in time, and the one thing that I

394
00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:45.160
would say is it's going to be okay, Like you're

395
00:21:45.160 --> 00:21:47.720
going to make mistakes. It's not going to be perfect,

396
00:21:47.799 --> 00:21:48.880
but it is going to be okay.

397
00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:49.759
You're going to get through this.

398
00:21:50.519 --> 00:21:54.319
And so when I even now start to panic in

399
00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:58.640
that same way, which I still constantly deal with, this

400
00:21:58.759 --> 00:22:02.440
idea of oh my gosh, you know what's going on,

401
00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:05.759
it's notince the terrible going to happen, I just remind

402
00:22:05.799 --> 00:22:10.720
myself that in every season of my life it was okay,

403
00:22:11.240 --> 00:22:14.480
and and I need to just just relax a little

404
00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:19.119
bit and enjoy life more than I more than my

405
00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:21.559
head wants me to, because my head wants me to

406
00:22:21.640 --> 00:22:26.799
be like on high alert, to pre grieve everything, to

407
00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:30.160
you know, see the worst thing in the horizon and

408
00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:32.759
live with that, because then it won't hurt as much

409
00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:36.279
whenever that terrible thing happens, and generally that terrible thing

410
00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:40.160
never happens. Another terrible thing might happen that I had

411
00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:44.960
no idea about, but even then I'm still like, but

412
00:22:45.079 --> 00:22:47.559
it's okay. I still I still gone through it. I'm

413
00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:50.359
still I'm still trucking.

414
00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:56.279
Yes you are. And we try not to worry about tomorrow.

415
00:22:56.359 --> 00:22:59.319
Tomorrow will worry about itself. Right. That's that says easy

416
00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:02.480
does hard kind of thing for everybody I think, but

417
00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:06.680
I at some point along the line you figured out

418
00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:09.480
maybe it was just natural, But you tell me, at

419
00:23:09.480 --> 00:23:11.720
some point along the line you figured out that humor

420
00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:17.000
and comedy and laughter helps with these heavy things. Can

421
00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:21.519
you talk us through how humor has changed your relationship

422
00:23:21.559 --> 00:23:23.640
with hard things.

423
00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:26.599
So I have always been the kind of person to

424
00:23:26.839 --> 00:23:29.519
laugh at the darkest things.

425
00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:32.119
I think that there is something.

426
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:37.759
About finding the funny in the saddest, in the terrible

427
00:23:39.160 --> 00:23:43.599
that is not only healing, but also it takes this

428
00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:46.920
incredible monster and makes it smaller.

429
00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:51.319
And I think the other thing is.

430
00:23:51.240 --> 00:23:57.319
That it invites people in in a way that for example,

431
00:23:57.400 --> 00:24:03.680
I write about depression and the anxiety and fertility loss

432
00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:08.440
and just a million different things that are hard, and

433
00:24:08.599 --> 00:24:12.839
if I can start with find something to make somebody

434
00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:18.160
laugh about even the hardest thing, then it makes it.

435
00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:21.279
First of all, it invites them in, especially if it's

436
00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:23.440
something that they're like, I've never had depression, I've never

437
00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:28.519
had anxiety, I've never had a miscarriage, and so instead

438
00:24:28.759 --> 00:24:33.359
they can go, Okay, well that was entertaining. Maybe I'll

439
00:24:33.400 --> 00:24:35.559
read a little bit further. It also, for a lot

440
00:24:35.599 --> 00:24:39.000
of times, people who are scared of a topic because

441
00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:41.160
it's too dark. If you can find a way to

442
00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:44.039
make them laugh, it kind of tells them that, like,

443
00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:47.000
you don't have to be scared about misstepping here. You

444
00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:48.599
don't have to be like, oh, am I gonna say

445
00:24:48.599 --> 00:24:50.359
the wrong thing? Am I going to do the wrong thing?

446
00:24:52.960 --> 00:24:57.400
And I think also it's once I can find the

447
00:24:57.519 --> 00:25:00.599
laughter in something is pretty much the first time that

448
00:25:00.680 --> 00:25:07.599
I can process it. So for example, this, uh, let's say,

449
00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:09.920
I guess last year, I found out that I have

450
00:25:10.759 --> 00:25:14.240
neuro endocrine cancer. And it's like it's very small and

451
00:25:14.279 --> 00:25:17.000
it's still moving, and it's it's not anything that I'm

452
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:19.480
super worried about. I just have to keep doing biopsies

453
00:25:19.480 --> 00:25:22.640
every six months forever to make sure it's not growing.

454
00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:24.920
But it wasn't.

455
00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:27.880
It was really it was difficult when I found out

456
00:25:27.880 --> 00:25:30.279
about it. I was really it just knocked me for

457
00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:34.400
a loop. I was not expecting it. And I got

458
00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:36.960
on the phone with my sister and she started making

459
00:25:37.400 --> 00:25:44.000
the darkest cancer jokes and they were so funny that

460
00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:48.200
I was like, I'm gonna be okay, because she wouldn't

461
00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:51.119
be able to joke with me if she thought I

462
00:25:51.160 --> 00:25:54.440
was going to die tomorrow and the fact that we're

463
00:25:54.480 --> 00:25:56.960
still finding joy and we're still finding laughter.

464
00:25:57.400 --> 00:25:58.799
That means my life is not over.

465
00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:01.640
I don't need to be like, Okay, everything changes now,

466
00:26:01.680 --> 00:26:05.559
everything must be serious. I'm still the same person. I

467
00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:08.519
still have the same tools, i still have the same support.

468
00:26:11.160 --> 00:26:15.400
The one of the one of the examples that I

469
00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:19.799
give is when so when COVID first started, before there

470
00:26:19.880 --> 00:26:24.640
were the vaccinations, and you know, it was really scary

471
00:26:24.680 --> 00:26:28.960
and nobody knew what was going on. My grandmother got

472
00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:32.880
COVID and my uh, this was during the time when

473
00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:36.880
all the hospitals were packed and you you couldn't go

474
00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:41.039
and see them and uh, and my my grandmother had

475
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:44.640
to mention and she was in memory care and so

476
00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:45.839
you know, my.

477
00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:48.119
Mom was like, if she goes, she would want this.

478
00:26:49.400 --> 00:26:52.720
So but we we were waiting and they, you know,

479
00:26:52.759 --> 00:26:55.039
would call and kind of keep us up to date.

480
00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:57.839
And they my mom called and she was like, you know,

481
00:26:58.039 --> 00:27:01.279
they they called and she died, and we were like,

482
00:27:01.279 --> 00:27:03.759
we were really sad, but then but also like that's

483
00:27:03.799 --> 00:27:07.000
you know, that's that's what she would have wanted. And

484
00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:08.559
my mom was like, hold on, I'm getting another call.

485
00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:10.200
And she got back on the phone. She was like, oh,

486
00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:11.799
hang on, they got the wrong person.

487
00:27:11.880 --> 00:27:12.599
Somebody else died.

488
00:27:12.680 --> 00:27:17.000
She's fine and so, and I had already told my

489
00:27:17.119 --> 00:27:19.920
sister and it had texted her and so when I

490
00:27:20.039 --> 00:27:23.119
called her, she was like, let me guess Granny's alive again.

491
00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:24.799
And I was like, no, she really is. And she

492
00:27:24.839 --> 00:27:26.559
was like, wait, I was just joking. And I was like,

493
00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:29.039
oh no, no, she's like a zombie. And then my

494
00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:33.319
mom calls again and my mom goes, she's dead again.

495
00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:37.119
She's dead again. And she was like it's okay, it's okay,

496
00:27:37.119 --> 00:27:42.160
she's dead again. And I laughed so hard and my

497
00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:46.160
mom laughed and my sister and it was the most healing,

498
00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:50.119
wonderful and I was like, I wish Granny was alive

499
00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:53.160
for this because she would have laughed her ass off.

500
00:27:55.319 --> 00:27:55.759
So good.

501
00:27:56.799 --> 00:28:02.200
Talk about an emotional rollercoaster. Holy cow, you guys exactly exactly.

502
00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:05.160
And you know, and I look at so for example,

503
00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:08.119
you know, my husband's family, they deal with things in

504
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:10.880
a very different way. So had this happened with my

505
00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:14.359
husband's family, I think it would have been very like traumatic.

506
00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:17.240
And oh, it's even worse because you know, we don't

507
00:28:17.319 --> 00:28:20.160
know and is she really and this is so heartbreaking

508
00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:24.599
and the and it is heartbreaking, but also the world

509
00:28:24.759 --> 00:28:30.640
is ridiculous and absurd, and you have to find joy

510
00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:35.839
in those crazy moments because they exist. They're all over

511
00:28:35.880 --> 00:28:37.960
the place. And so if you can find a way

512
00:28:38.680 --> 00:28:42.920
to find the laughter and the joy even in the

513
00:28:42.920 --> 00:28:45.119
hard parts, then it makes it easier to.

514
00:28:45.079 --> 00:28:47.480
Find the laughter and the joy and the easy parts.

515
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:51.839
Amen. That is a beautiful thing to say, and so true.

516
00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:54.720
I aim to find joy and choose joy from the

517
00:28:54.759 --> 00:28:57.240
ground up is one of the things I do on

518
00:28:57.319 --> 00:28:59.480
the internet. I put my phone on the ground and

519
00:28:59.480 --> 00:29:00.880
pick up my phone. I want to say, what are

520
00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:03.000
you grateful for today? But like, joy from the ground

521
00:29:03.079 --> 00:29:05.839
up is about finding joy in those hard moments. And

522
00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:09.880
you've been very intentional about that, and like take it

523
00:29:09.880 --> 00:29:13.119
a step further, because not only do you intentionally create

524
00:29:13.440 --> 00:29:16.440
joy and pockets of joy in the challenge, but you

525
00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:19.640
also believe in like play like you. I think you

526
00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:23.680
have a hula hoop, like an adult hula hoop is true.

527
00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:28.359
My friend Karen Walrond, she had one, and I was like,

528
00:29:28.440 --> 00:29:30.079
I always wanted to hula hoop, but I can't. I

529
00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:31.519
can't keep it up. And she was like, oh, get

530
00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:35.599
an adult hula hoop. I'm like, like, it's just bigger.

531
00:29:35.359 --> 00:29:36.039
Because I'm fatter.

532
00:29:36.200 --> 00:29:38.079
No that it didn't work when I was a kid,

533
00:29:38.680 --> 00:29:41.240
and she said, no, it's the there's a weight to

534
00:29:41.319 --> 00:29:43.160
it and it helps and you can keep it up.

535
00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:45.000
And so I bought one and I was like, oh

536
00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:49.000
my god, I'm hula hooping and it's so much fun.

537
00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:54.200
It's so ridiculous. I feel so ridiculous. He's just sitting

538
00:29:54.680 --> 00:29:58.640
watching Doctor Whom hula hooping in the living room like

539
00:29:58.880 --> 00:29:59.920
some kind of ten year old.

540
00:30:00.519 --> 00:30:03.759
But if it brings you joy, do it.

541
00:30:04.119 --> 00:30:07.160
Run after anything that brings you joy. There's not enough

542
00:30:07.240 --> 00:30:11.119
joy in life, and it's hard living in the world today.

543
00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:14.759
So every time that you can, you have to grab

544
00:30:14.839 --> 00:30:18.680
that joy because that's the thing that's going to heal

545
00:30:18.759 --> 00:30:20.480
you so that you have the fuel to.

546
00:30:21.039 --> 00:30:26.039
Fight against the really hard things. Oh, Dottie agrees.

547
00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:32.160
Dotty agrees, Dottie. Dottie friends, Dottie had a little bit

548
00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:35.480
of a situation before we started taping, and we're paying

549
00:30:35.599 --> 00:30:38.759
very close attention to Dottie. Is her precious Doggie on

550
00:30:38.799 --> 00:30:42.119
her on her side right now, And we're very grateful

551
00:30:42.119 --> 00:30:45.920
for Dottie and I hope, Dotty's okay. So but Dottie agrees,

552
00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:47.720
and Dottie is joy from the ground up. Do you

553
00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:49.920
know what that was, Jenny, You know what that was?

554
00:30:50.440 --> 00:30:53.480
That was my Wiley saying hi. You know, I know

555
00:30:53.559 --> 00:30:57.039
that sounds crazy, but that was my Wiley saying hi.

556
00:30:57.160 --> 00:31:02.960
Oh boy ooh it was it was. It was literally

557
00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:05.920
you know what, we know it. It's beautiful and I'm grateful.

558
00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:14.079
Who Hello, Let's talk more about Doctor Who. You watched

559
00:31:14.119 --> 00:31:17.599
a lot of Doctor Who with Haley, your your daughter,

560
00:31:17.799 --> 00:31:22.440
and you went through some some things with uh, just

561
00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:24.880
feeling like you were not doing enough as a mom.

562
00:31:25.240 --> 00:31:27.759
You would make mac and cheese macor uh, you know,

563
00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:29.480
not even like craft mac and cheese. I think you

564
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:32.640
said microwave mac and cheese. You know, one one other

565
00:31:32.680 --> 00:31:35.480
step of mac mac and cheese. But and you would

566
00:31:35.480 --> 00:31:38.279
hang out, you'd watch Doctor Who. Can you talk us

567
00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:41.920
through what that meant to you and Haley and and

568
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:44.839
how important it is to not be so dang hard

569
00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:45.559
on ourselves.

570
00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:46.160
Yes.

571
00:31:46.839 --> 00:31:51.680
So, so when Haley was little, I I struggled I

572
00:31:51.720 --> 00:31:56.920
still struggle with depression, but at the time I didn't

573
00:31:56.960 --> 00:31:59.640
know how to explain that to them. And so what

574
00:31:59.720 --> 00:32:04.279
I do is I would. And typically when my depression

575
00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:07.200
shows up, it's different for everybody, right, So for me,

576
00:32:07.559 --> 00:32:10.839
it is complete exhaustion to the point.

577
00:32:10.680 --> 00:32:11.799
Where I really think.

578
00:32:11.960 --> 00:32:13.759
Usually the first couple of days, I'm like, oh, I

579
00:32:13.759 --> 00:32:17.440
have the flu, so I'm really really sick. And then

580
00:32:17.640 --> 00:32:19.599
if it doesn't pass in a couple of days, and

581
00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:21.799
I'm like, oh no, this is depression. This is like

582
00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:27.599
brain flu. So it's that it's an absolute numbness of

583
00:32:27.759 --> 00:32:33.359
emotion and a very uncomfortable numbness. And so when I

584
00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:38.200
would have those periods when I could not do anything, cook,

585
00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:41.880
couldn't clean, couldn't talk, I would sit on the couch,

586
00:32:41.960 --> 00:32:44.279
lay down on the couch and I would have Hayley

587
00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:47.519
say with me and we would binge watch Doctor Who.

588
00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:53.279
And when they got older, I guess there were maybe

589
00:32:53.319 --> 00:32:57.279
about twelve when I finally said so, I just wanted

590
00:32:57.279 --> 00:33:01.240
to First of all, I want to apologize because there's

591
00:33:01.319 --> 00:33:05.240
so many times when you know, we would sit on

592
00:33:05.279 --> 00:33:08.799
the couch and that was that was depression. That's what

593
00:33:08.839 --> 00:33:13.640
it looks like for me. And I know during those

594
00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:17.079
periods I should have been doing, you know, being in

595
00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:20.960
PTA and taking you to girl Scouts and you know,

596
00:33:21.119 --> 00:33:24.599
making dinner and all of these things, and I just couldn't.

597
00:33:24.599 --> 00:33:25.799
But this is what it looked like.

598
00:33:25.839 --> 00:33:28.200
And I'm just I'm just really, I'm sorry, but I

599
00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:31.319
wanted you to know, like I try my hardest. And

600
00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:36.839
they said, those were some of my favorite memories because

601
00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:39.920
you were one hundred percent with me. You weren't off like,

602
00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:41.839
oh I've got a cook, Oh I've got a clean,

603
00:33:41.920 --> 00:33:46.000
Oh I've got a You were just right there. And

604
00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:53.119
it made me realize how often we judge ourselves on

605
00:33:53.319 --> 00:33:56.680
these standards of what we think we should be doing,

606
00:33:56.759 --> 00:34:01.000
when in fact, maybe we're supposed to be on that path,

607
00:34:01.799 --> 00:34:06.160
or maybe that path is not that bad, you know,

608
00:34:06.359 --> 00:34:09.679
maybe there are some good things that come with that.

609
00:34:09.800 --> 00:34:11.599
I mean, I wouldn't ever choose.

610
00:34:11.239 --> 00:34:15.079
To have depression, but looking at it from Hayley's eyes,

611
00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:17.559
all of a sudden, I was like, you know what,

612
00:34:17.960 --> 00:34:21.679
there are some some silver linings to things. And there's

613
00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:25.360
probably a lot of things that I'm going through that

614
00:34:25.400 --> 00:34:30.000
are really hard, but that are making me take a

615
00:34:30.039 --> 00:34:33.719
slower pace, that are making me take a path that

616
00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:38.320
I wouldn't normally take, that are making me judge myself

617
00:34:38.360 --> 00:34:42.599
too hard, when in fact I'm actually doing okay, and

618
00:34:42.760 --> 00:34:46.239
probably everybody is doing better than they think they are.

619
00:34:47.960 --> 00:34:50.360
We all need to hear it, I think more than

620
00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:53.400
we should. But I agree with you. I think everybody

621
00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:56.559
in general is working and trying their best and trying

622
00:34:56.559 --> 00:34:59.719
their hardest, and we all need to remind ourselves of

623
00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:05.079
that frequently. Hailey is very special to you, and I

624
00:35:05.159 --> 00:35:08.639
know this, and I want to know what they have

625
00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:13.199
taught you, Like, what has what have you learned? And

626
00:35:13.239 --> 00:35:16.880
how have you become a better human because of Hailey?

627
00:35:18.679 --> 00:35:20.519
Oh my gosh.

628
00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:25.480
They every single day they teach me, and I think,

629
00:35:25.480 --> 00:35:27.360
I mean, that's the way it should be, right, Like

630
00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:31.159
it shouldn't be a one sided thing, because if you think, oh,

631
00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:33.920
I've got all the answers, I knew I'm your mom,

632
00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:37.079
and so I know all the answers, and you get

633
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:37.960
older and you're like.

634
00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:39.719
Oh, it turns out I screwed that up.

635
00:35:40.079 --> 00:35:42.880
And I think, actually, one of the things that has

636
00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:50.800
been really wonderful is they have taught me that every

637
00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:52.079
single person is unique.

638
00:35:53.320 --> 00:35:55.360
When when they.

639
00:35:55.280 --> 00:35:58.880
Were I want to say maybe maybe around twelve or so,

640
00:35:59.519 --> 00:36:05.599
they they were like, so I think I'm gay and

641
00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:08.800
and I'm bisexual, and so I was like, you know

642
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:11.480
that it doesn't affect me one way or the other.

643
00:36:12.079 --> 00:36:14.920
And so I was like, Oh, this is my chance

644
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:15.360
to be the.

645
00:36:15.320 --> 00:36:19.280
Cool mom and do what I would have wanted had I,

646
00:36:19.480 --> 00:36:22.320
you know, said I was bisexual when I was you know,

647
00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:22.920
their age.

648
00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:26.159
And so I was.

649
00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:30.480
Like, oh, okay, okay, can you pass the syrup? Because

650
00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:34.559
I was just like yeah, whatever. And then later and

651
00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:36.559
I was like, oh, so look look at me. I'm

652
00:36:36.559 --> 00:36:39.159
not making a big deal out of it. I'm like accepting,

653
00:36:39.239 --> 00:36:42.119
I'm doing all the things right. And then later they

654
00:36:42.119 --> 00:36:45.280
were like, actually, that is not what I needed from you,

655
00:36:45.480 --> 00:36:50.239
because that was really hard for me. And you were

656
00:36:50.280 --> 00:36:53.639
just like no, big deal, big whoop. And what I

657
00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:56.199
really needed was for you to be like, oh my gosh,

658
00:36:56.199 --> 00:36:57.719
I'm so glad you shared that with me.

659
00:36:58.840 --> 00:37:00.840
I'm so proud of you. I you know.

660
00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:04.719
And but to me, I was like, oh, no, that's

661
00:37:04.760 --> 00:37:06.119
this is the way that you're supposed to do it.

662
00:37:06.119 --> 00:37:08.880
And so one of the biggest things that that it

663
00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:13.199
taught me is that every single person is different, and

664
00:37:13.280 --> 00:37:16.320
so if you have this idea of like this is

665
00:37:16.360 --> 00:37:18.840
how I need to show up for someone is not

666
00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:21.000
necessarily going to be how you need to show up

667
00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:25.559
for someone else, and I think so often we're like, oh, I,

668
00:37:25.639 --> 00:37:27.000
you know, I should have done this with my kid,

669
00:37:27.079 --> 00:37:28.679
or I should have done this with my kid. But

670
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:32.199
in the end, what it taught me is the ability

671
00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:35.400
to ask more and to be like, what is it

672
00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:39.519
you need from me? I still struggle with this on

673
00:37:39.559 --> 00:37:44.239
a regular basis. They will, you know, they'll they're off

674
00:37:44.280 --> 00:37:46.679
on college and they'll call and they'll say, you know,

675
00:37:47.679 --> 00:37:50.800
you know, somebody said something awful to me, or this

676
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:54.320
happened or this happened. And my instinct is, I have

677
00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:56.480
to fix this, right, So I go into well have

678
00:37:56.559 --> 00:37:58.360
you tried this? Well? Have you tried this? Have you?

679
00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:02.320
And I'm going through and turns out that's not what

680
00:38:02.360 --> 00:38:05.559
they want. What they want is to have someone say

681
00:38:06.039 --> 00:38:10.480
that sucks and not give them a whole list of

682
00:38:10.599 --> 00:38:12.119
and here are all the things I want you to

683
00:38:12.119 --> 00:38:16.039
do about it. And so what I have learned is

684
00:38:16.159 --> 00:38:18.599
to be able to ask when they say I'm having

685
00:38:18.599 --> 00:38:22.400
a problem with this or that, my first question is

686
00:38:23.159 --> 00:38:25.000
do you want me to listen to it or do

687
00:38:25.039 --> 00:38:28.760
you want advice? And let them kind of run the conversation.

688
00:38:29.840 --> 00:38:31.880
And so if they say, like I just want you

689
00:38:31.960 --> 00:38:34.320
to listen. Then I'm like, I think we should burn

690
00:38:34.360 --> 00:38:37.119
their house down, and it makes them laugh because it's

691
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:39.440
so they're just like, wait, what did you say, and

692
00:38:39.559 --> 00:38:41.440
like I'm just saying I want to support you.

693
00:38:41.480 --> 00:38:42.519
I don't know what else to say.

694
00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:44.480
I think we should go burn their house down, and

695
00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:49.159
then they laugh and okay, and then sometimes they're like, no, actually,

696
00:38:49.239 --> 00:38:51.880
I would like what would you do in my situation?

697
00:38:53.480 --> 00:38:57.719
But it's really helpful because I think a lot of times.

698
00:38:58.840 --> 00:39:00.400
Kids or partners or.

699
00:39:02.920 --> 00:39:06.719
I know, you know, if I give you feedback on

700
00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:09.800
here's what's going on in my life, this is maybe

701
00:39:09.800 --> 00:39:12.719
gonna make it worse. This is maybe going to you're

702
00:39:12.760 --> 00:39:15.599
gonna judge me, or you're gonna give me a list

703
00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:17.280
of things to do, or you're gonna judge how I

704
00:39:17.360 --> 00:39:22.400
handle it. And by instead saying what do you need

705
00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:22.719
from me?

706
00:39:22.760 --> 00:39:22.960
Here?

707
00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:27.719
I want to be who you need from me can

708
00:39:27.760 --> 00:39:30.440
make such a difference, and then it also encourages them

709
00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:34.519
to give more, which is I mean, it's hard when

710
00:39:34.599 --> 00:39:36.519
you especially your kid, because they just want to be

711
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:38.519
like I'm fine, I'm fine.

712
00:39:39.239 --> 00:39:43.239
Yeah, yeah, Well thank you for that. Because I gathered

713
00:39:43.559 --> 00:39:47.159
that we are all unique, right, like everybody's unique and

714
00:39:47.320 --> 00:39:49.960
as a result of that, like you know, pairing very

715
00:39:49.960 --> 00:39:53.360
perfectly with that, of course, is that we all have

716
00:39:53.639 --> 00:39:57.960
our ways that we process things, and it's worth it

717
00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:00.280
to take that extra thirty seconds and say what do

718
00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:03.119
you need from me right now? And that that can

719
00:40:03.199 --> 00:40:06.760
change and shift the energy of all of the things,

720
00:40:07.239 --> 00:40:09.800
and then we go burn the house down, right Like

721
00:40:10.119 --> 00:40:11.599
then we go burn the house down.

722
00:40:12.079 --> 00:40:15.679
Yes, yeah, I'm not saying it's an either or it cray.

723
00:40:15.639 --> 00:40:20.480
And but I know exactly So speaking of fun words,

724
00:40:20.559 --> 00:40:22.880
I'm going to run through those book titles as I've

725
00:40:22.920 --> 00:40:26.360
said I would, and I want everybody to get your

726
00:40:26.360 --> 00:40:28.760
pens out or go to Amazon and order all these books,

727
00:40:28.760 --> 00:40:30.239
because you need all these books in my life, in

728
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:33.400
your life. I have them all, but they're all on

729
00:40:33.480 --> 00:40:35.199
loan right now. They were going to be like lined

730
00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:37.119
up behind me, all pretty but all of my friends

731
00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:39.320
I have lots of friends who read, and they're all

732
00:40:39.320 --> 00:40:41.719
on loan. So go get these books. Are called the

733
00:40:41.760 --> 00:40:45.800
first one, Let's Pretend This Never Happened, A mostly true memoir,

734
00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:51.559
Furiously Happy, A funny book about horrible things. You are here,

735
00:40:52.639 --> 00:40:57.519
an owner's manual for Dangerous Minds, Broken in the best

736
00:40:57.559 --> 00:41:01.119
possible way, and how to be okay with nothing is okay.

737
00:41:01.239 --> 00:41:04.239
Tips and tricks that kept me alive, happy, and creative

738
00:41:04.679 --> 00:41:07.719
in spite of myself. You guys, these titles and their

739
00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:13.000
taglines are everything. So Jenny, quick, before you forget, what's

740
00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:16.280
a story from your books that you love telling?

741
00:41:19.960 --> 00:41:20.679
I think.

742
00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:26.079
There are so there are so many that I love

743
00:41:26.239 --> 00:41:30.480
for different reasons. But I think one of my favorites

744
00:41:30.840 --> 00:41:35.400
is the when I was in New York and I

745
00:41:35.599 --> 00:41:39.880
was on book tour and they had me at a

746
00:41:39.880 --> 00:41:43.719
hotel that was like right on Times Square ish area,

747
00:41:43.960 --> 00:41:46.079
and like you could look out and see all of

748
00:41:46.119 --> 00:41:49.440
these places that I've just only seen, you know, on

749
00:41:49.559 --> 00:41:53.400
TV before, and I wanted to go explore, and I

750
00:41:53.559 --> 00:41:57.559
couldn't because my anxiety just it was just too high.

751
00:41:57.639 --> 00:41:59.239
And so I was like all.

752
00:41:59.239 --> 00:42:03.119
Dressed up and could not, like literally had my hand

753
00:42:03.280 --> 00:42:05.840
on the door at the hotel room and could not

754
00:42:05.920 --> 00:42:08.079
make myself walk out of the hotel room.

755
00:42:08.719 --> 00:42:11.519
And so I went back and I sat.

756
00:42:11.360 --> 00:42:14.159
Next to the window, and I was crying and feeling

757
00:42:15.159 --> 00:42:18.719
really bad for myself and like a failure. And I

758
00:42:18.800 --> 00:42:22.039
looked down and there was this fountain, and the fountain

759
00:42:22.119 --> 00:42:27.119
looked like like dandelions, and each one of the little

760
00:42:27.199 --> 00:42:31.519
dandelions sort of leaves had a little spray coming off

761
00:42:31.559 --> 00:42:36.400
of it, and there all of a sudden looked like

762
00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:40.679
it was on fire, but the fire was a rainbow,

763
00:42:41.760 --> 00:42:45.119
and it was the you know, from catching the light,

764
00:42:45.840 --> 00:42:50.800
catching the sun, and I've never seen anything like it

765
00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:56.280
before or after. It was so incredibly beautiful, and I thought,

766
00:42:56.360 --> 00:42:59.880
it is so strange because I'm looking down there, thinking, oh,

767
00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:02.079
everybody's going to be like, oh my god, what is happening?

768
00:43:02.519 --> 00:43:05.559
And nobody noticed it, And I thought, are people just

769
00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:08.880
so used to beauty or are they just so used

770
00:43:08.920 --> 00:43:12.480
to they're not looking? And then I realized that that's

771
00:43:12.519 --> 00:43:15.000
not it at all. It was because I was so

772
00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:18.119
high up in the hotel, I was the only person

773
00:43:18.199 --> 00:43:21.000
who was seeing it from that ankle, and I would

774
00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:24.920
never have seen that had I left the hotel room.

775
00:43:24.920 --> 00:43:28.199
Which is not to say, you know, yay for agoraphobia,

776
00:43:29.480 --> 00:43:35.360
but that sometimes even when your brain doesn't work, even

777
00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:38.239
sometimes when you're in a situation that you don't want

778
00:43:38.280 --> 00:43:41.920
to be in, there may still be magic and joy

779
00:43:42.199 --> 00:43:46.559
in that, and you can still find that there.

780
00:43:46.519 --> 00:43:50.119
Is magic enjoy in that that is the best story.

781
00:43:50.599 --> 00:43:55.039
I did go to Times Square because this book, Tribes

782
00:43:55.119 --> 00:43:57.719
of Transformation, was displayed in Times Square. It's the best

783
00:43:57.760 --> 00:43:59.880
selling book that I was honored to be a part of.

784
00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:03.079
And I went and I had that anxiety and I

785
00:44:03.159 --> 00:44:06.480
did the thing. And the way that my body felt

786
00:44:06.519 --> 00:44:09.840
alive that night was like nothing I've ever experienced because

787
00:44:09.880 --> 00:44:12.000
I had not been a time score, let alone wandering

788
00:44:12.039 --> 00:44:14.320
around by myself. I gave my mother, my poor mother,

789
00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:16.920
I love her, and she was so happy for me,

790
00:44:17.480 --> 00:44:19.760
and she was like, what are you doing? Because she

791
00:44:19.760 --> 00:44:21.320
she has me on lock on her phone. She knows

792
00:44:21.360 --> 00:44:23.079
where I'm at at all times, so she's like, why

793
00:44:23.400 --> 00:44:25.719
you know. I'm so sorry mom that I gave you

794
00:44:25.760 --> 00:44:28.039
the worst anxiety that day. But I went. I did.

795
00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:30.360
I did the thing for both of us, Jenny. And

796
00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:33.920
what's really cool is the rainbow, Like you saw rainbow

797
00:44:34.039 --> 00:44:38.079
and like again I you know, friends for those of

798
00:44:38.119 --> 00:44:40.760
you that don't know, Jenny and I did talk once before,

799
00:44:41.000 --> 00:44:43.960
and it was like in a former life, and I

800
00:44:44.039 --> 00:44:47.320
felt this just connection to her, much like I think

801
00:44:47.440 --> 00:44:50.320
most of your readers do. You know, you just connect

802
00:44:50.360 --> 00:44:53.199
with us on such a deep level. I felt this

803
00:44:53.480 --> 00:44:56.840
very very personal connection to you, and I'm so grateful

804
00:44:56.840 --> 00:44:59.760
that we connected so deeply, so quickly, because it makes

805
00:44:59.760 --> 00:45:02.599
sense to me now, Like there's just these like synchronicities

806
00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:05.199
that you know, lined up with you know, Wiley and

807
00:45:05.320 --> 00:45:08.320
the rainbow. I I you know, I believe that. You know,

808
00:45:08.360 --> 00:45:10.719
my chapter in this book is called Becoming the Storm,

809
00:45:11.360 --> 00:45:13.800
and there's a there's an acronym in there, but the

810
00:45:13.880 --> 00:45:16.880
rainbows follow storms, right, So like there's a lot of

811
00:45:17.079 --> 00:45:19.719
rainbow theming in a lot of what I'm trying to

812
00:45:19.719 --> 00:45:22.239
build from the ground up over here and here, my

813
00:45:22.280 --> 00:45:25.000
friend Jenny just shares the most beautiful story about finding

814
00:45:25.079 --> 00:45:28.639
joy in a rainbow in Times Square, which is just

815
00:45:29.159 --> 00:45:31.719
so cosmic for me. So I just want to And

816
00:45:31.760 --> 00:45:34.360
it's eleven eleven right now where I'm at. So friends,

817
00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:36.559
this is, oh my.

818
00:45:36.519 --> 00:45:43.920
Gosh, synchronicity. I totally believe in synchronicity, a little little

819
00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:47.840
little signs from the universe of like all right, you're

820
00:45:47.840 --> 00:45:50.079
not alone, It's okay, it's gonna be all right.

821
00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:53.679
From from the universe and from like literally connections and

822
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:56.400
friends that we make that we you know, we don't

823
00:45:56.960 --> 00:45:59.360
we miss some of this sometimes, like you said, you know,

824
00:45:59.480 --> 00:46:01.880
the people, Why are they missing it because they didn't

825
00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:05.480
have your perspective? They they and then that's there's a

826
00:46:05.519 --> 00:46:08.719
lot there, there's a lot there.

827
00:46:10.440 --> 00:46:10.639
Yeah.

828
00:46:10.760 --> 00:46:12.440
Yeah, I don't even I don't even know how to

829
00:46:13.079 --> 00:46:15.039
out go back to what I was talking about, because

830
00:46:15.079 --> 00:46:21.599
I am blown away by the synchronicities. Taxidermy seems like

831
00:46:21.639 --> 00:46:24.199
a good place to go from there, Right, let's go,

832
00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:24.880
let's go.

833
00:46:24.880 --> 00:46:26.159
There actual progression.

834
00:46:26.440 --> 00:46:32.519
Obviously, you love taxidermy, your dad your dad does or

835
00:46:32.519 --> 00:46:33.599
did taxidermy.

836
00:46:33.679 --> 00:46:37.000
He still does the taxidermy shop, he still does.

837
00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:42.320
And at the same time, your writing preserves these very real,

838
00:46:42.440 --> 00:46:45.280
raw human moments. So I feel a little bit like

839
00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:49.360
storytelling in some ways is kind of like taxidermy, keeping

840
00:46:49.400 --> 00:46:51.639
pieces of your life from being forgotten.

841
00:46:51.880 --> 00:46:57.639
What do you think I could absolutely see that. Yeah. Yeah.

842
00:46:57.760 --> 00:47:04.039
One of the at least two of the my books

843
00:47:04.079 --> 00:47:08.679
have taxidermy animals on the cover, and and I really

844
00:47:08.719 --> 00:47:10.360
I was like, there's no way they're gonna let me

845
00:47:10.400 --> 00:47:11.639
do that, And then they did.

846
00:47:11.880 --> 00:47:14.760
It was so awesome. It's funny.

847
00:47:14.920 --> 00:47:21.599
So my house is filled with taxid army, but it's

848
00:47:22.920 --> 00:47:26.119
it's people call it ethical taxid army because it's basically,

849
00:47:26.159 --> 00:47:28.760
like I find like old pieces that are falling apart

850
00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:32.039
in like the State sales or you know, it's roadkill

851
00:47:32.199 --> 00:47:35.159
or something like that. And I take them and then

852
00:47:35.199 --> 00:47:38.400
I dressed them up and so there's no there's no

853
00:47:38.960 --> 00:47:42.400
animal here, that's just a taxidermy animal. It's like, oh,

854
00:47:42.519 --> 00:47:45.159
here's like a little deckling. But also what if she

855
00:47:45.320 --> 00:47:51.360
was Marie Antoinette And here's you know, the just absolute ridiculousness,

856
00:47:51.400 --> 00:47:54.880
you know, a full mouse circus with you know, all

857
00:47:54.920 --> 00:47:58.239
the little taxidermy mice. They're all doing different stuff. My

858
00:47:58.239 --> 00:48:01.000
my wall over here is actually, let's see if I

859
00:48:01.039 --> 00:48:02.440
can move it so you can see.

860
00:48:03.039 --> 00:48:07.000
Oh, yeah, are the raccoons? I need to see a raccoon.

861
00:48:07.440 --> 00:48:09.440
Where's the there's Rory the rectory.

862
00:48:09.519 --> 00:48:13.119
There he is, yeah, and there's there's another.

863
00:48:14.760 --> 00:48:16.360
Can't can't get high enough.

864
00:48:16.159 --> 00:48:18.440
It's okay. And then who was your favorite?

865
00:48:19.159 --> 00:48:19.519
Rory?

866
00:48:19.639 --> 00:48:23.760
Definitely, although I do really like he's on the other

867
00:48:23.800 --> 00:48:25.280
wall so you can't see it. But I have this

868
00:48:25.719 --> 00:48:31.000
taxidermid boehead. And then I called James Garfield and he is,

869
00:48:32.079 --> 00:48:35.119
Oh my gosh, so ridiculous. I saw him at Interstate Sale,

870
00:48:36.800 --> 00:48:41.239
just the he's got this enormous smile, he's missing a tooth.

871
00:48:41.559 --> 00:48:47.000
He's he looks I'm sorry, James, he looks awful, but

872
00:48:47.119 --> 00:48:50.000
he looks so happy. And so when I saw him,

873
00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:51.400
I was like, I have to have this guy. And

874
00:48:51.639 --> 00:48:54.280
the Victure was like, absolutely not, this is ridiculous. I

875
00:48:54.280 --> 00:48:56.199
think he was like ninety dollars, which was a lot

876
00:48:56.199 --> 00:48:59.079
of money back then and it's still a lot of

877
00:48:59.079 --> 00:49:01.679
money now. But and I was like, I have to

878
00:49:01.719 --> 00:49:03.320
have him. And we went home without him, and I

879
00:49:03.400 --> 00:49:05.480
was so sad. And then the next day we went

880
00:49:05.480 --> 00:49:08.320
back and everything was half priced, and Victor came out

881
00:49:08.400 --> 00:49:10.559
me it was holding James Carfield had like roll in

882
00:49:10.599 --> 00:49:15.360
his eyes the entire time, and he said, he was like,

883
00:49:15.480 --> 00:49:17.599
I can't believe you got this. This is so And

884
00:49:17.639 --> 00:49:19.760
I thought, okay, I'm never gonna hear the end.

885
00:49:19.599 --> 00:49:22.400
Of how much we spent for this bore.

886
00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:25.719
So here's what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna make

887
00:49:26.159 --> 00:49:28.480
Christmas cards. And so I dressed them up in like

888
00:49:28.480 --> 00:49:31.199
a full Christmas garb, you know, very kind of Scroogey.

889
00:49:31.760 --> 00:49:34.079
And then I made these handmade, these little Christmas cards

890
00:49:34.119 --> 00:49:35.599
and I was like, Okay, here's what I'm gonna do.

891
00:49:35.639 --> 00:49:40.039
I'm gonna go online and I just need like ten

892
00:49:40.119 --> 00:49:42.920
people to buy a Christmas card and then I.

893
00:49:42.920 --> 00:49:44.320
Will have paid off James Garfield.

894
00:49:44.679 --> 00:49:48.280
And what happened was like a thousand people were like

895
00:49:48.360 --> 00:49:52.119
I want one, I want one, and so James Garfield

896
00:49:52.400 --> 00:49:55.480
was like pulling in cash and I was like, this

897
00:49:55.760 --> 00:50:00.000
is found money. Let's do something fun. And so I

898
00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:02.280
with that many and I was like, Okay, if you

899
00:50:02.320 --> 00:50:05.800
were struggling this year. It was during like Christmas Honka.

900
00:50:06.159 --> 00:50:07.760
I was like, if you're struggling this year and you

901
00:50:07.800 --> 00:50:12.559
need some help, just put a little link to whatever

902
00:50:12.599 --> 00:50:15.400
it is that you want on Amazon for your kids

903
00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:19.119
and I'll feel as many as as many wishes as

904
00:50:19.159 --> 00:50:19.679
I can.

905
00:50:19.800 --> 00:50:21.320
And I was like, you know, try to keep it around.

906
00:50:21.360 --> 00:50:23.199
I think I think it was like forty dollars each.

907
00:50:23.519 --> 00:50:26.159
And so I went and I.

908
00:50:25.320 --> 00:50:27.199
You know, spent the night and I was going and

909
00:50:27.199 --> 00:50:31.119
filling wishes and then I was like I'm at the

910
00:50:31.280 --> 00:50:34.719
end of like I've spent more than I probably should,

911
00:50:35.039 --> 00:50:39.000
but I'm gonna I'll come back tomorrow and let me

912
00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:40.679
see if I can find some more money. And then

913
00:50:40.840 --> 00:50:43.320
but when I came back, there were all these people

914
00:50:43.320 --> 00:50:44.800
who were like, well, I want to I want to

915
00:50:44.840 --> 00:50:46.880
fill one and I want to feel one. And so

916
00:50:47.000 --> 00:50:50.440
people had gone in into the wish lists and they

917
00:50:50.480 --> 00:50:54.559
were all filling them, all these strangers helping total strangers.

918
00:50:55.280 --> 00:50:59.559
And so we called it the James Garfield Miracle, and

919
00:51:00.639 --> 00:51:02.920
we have done it for I want to say, sixteen

920
00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:10.519
years in a row of just strangers helping strangers.

921
00:51:09.280 --> 00:51:10.880
To get kids.

922
00:51:12.800 --> 00:51:15.960
A toy, you know, a stuffed animal or something you know,

923
00:51:16.039 --> 00:51:20.119
sweet to open up. And it's so funny because it's

924
00:51:20.159 --> 00:51:26.440
such a strange that it started with this bore. Actually

925
00:51:26.639 --> 00:51:31.679
when in for some reason, Canada did a big story

926
00:51:31.800 --> 00:51:35.679
on it, there was this Canadian like primetime Canadian news

927
00:51:36.239 --> 00:51:39.159
did a story on it, but they didn't say anything

928
00:51:39.159 --> 00:51:41.760
about James Garfield. They were just like, oh what, they

929
00:51:41.760 --> 00:51:43.800
were like, let's talk about this. And so I went

930
00:51:43.840 --> 00:51:46.559
into a news studio and I had James Garfield was

931
00:51:46.559 --> 00:51:49.519
like propped up behind me. But they never said anything

932
00:51:49.519 --> 00:51:51.679
about James Garfield and I didn't either. So it looked

933
00:51:51.719 --> 00:51:54.920
like I had just brought my emotional support wild War,

934
00:51:55.360 --> 00:51:57.519
which is like, I mean, it's it's e I mean,

935
00:51:57.559 --> 00:52:00.519
it's enormous, enormous.

936
00:52:00.039 --> 00:52:04.320
Yes, emotional support World War. That's gonna be a new.

937
00:52:04.159 --> 00:52:07.719
Thing, Yeah, but just a head.

938
00:52:08.199 --> 00:52:12.039
Just just the only the head. That's an amazing story.

939
00:52:12.119 --> 00:52:16.400
Strangers helping strangers is like the most wholesome thing on

940
00:52:16.440 --> 00:52:21.599
the internet. You are so like what your light brings,

941
00:52:21.639 --> 00:52:24.039
so much light that is so contagious into the world.

942
00:52:24.440 --> 00:52:26.400
And I'm gonna I'm gonna have to go back there

943
00:52:26.400 --> 00:52:28.639
because I don't want to forget to ask you more questions. First,

944
00:52:28.679 --> 00:52:31.960
that's my ending time. I'm going I'm skipping ahet in myself.

945
00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:36.760
I believe here a lot of we we've talked through

946
00:52:36.960 --> 00:52:39.280
a lot of the mental health stuff and some of

947
00:52:39.320 --> 00:52:42.920
the mindset stuff around that. Not so much movement, but

948
00:52:43.000 --> 00:52:45.159
that's okay, we don't need to go there today. But music,

949
00:52:45.199 --> 00:52:49.320
I'm curious about. Do you have a song of survival

950
00:52:49.400 --> 00:52:52.079
that you go to that grounds you when times feel

951
00:52:52.159 --> 00:52:53.079
chaotic around you?

952
00:52:54.159 --> 00:52:57.679
There is a song that this is going to sound ridiculous,

953
00:52:57.960 --> 00:53:01.840
but it's called My Vagina is eight Miles and it

954
00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:03.239
is anthemic.

955
00:53:03.800 --> 00:53:05.280
It is so fantastic.

956
00:53:06.519 --> 00:53:08.840
If I am people will ask me like if I

957
00:53:09.039 --> 00:53:10.519
They're like, oh, do you have a song that you

958
00:53:10.519 --> 00:53:12.599
want us to play as you're walking out on stage?

959
00:53:12.679 --> 00:53:14.239
And that's what I always request.

960
00:53:14.519 --> 00:53:18.320
Beautiful, It is you absolutely need to go at a

961
00:53:18.320 --> 00:53:20.920
storm large I think is who sings it, and it

962
00:53:21.039 --> 00:53:21.679
is just.

963
00:53:23.440 --> 00:53:24.599
I love it.

964
00:53:25.840 --> 00:53:28.400
Thank you, and we will I will include it in

965
00:53:28.440 --> 00:53:33.679
the show notes for everybody, because that's very special. What

966
00:53:33.800 --> 00:53:38.079
is one message that you if I gave you, like

967
00:53:38.119 --> 00:53:41.840
a megaphone that the world kind of had to listen to? Like,

968
00:53:42.039 --> 00:53:43.840
you know, I'm trying to figure out how to better

969
00:53:43.840 --> 00:53:47.039
say this question because I've been saying forced and I

970
00:53:47.039 --> 00:53:49.960
don't want to force anybody to listen to anybody. But

971
00:53:50.400 --> 00:53:54.320
if I strongly encouraged the world to pay attention to

972
00:53:54.400 --> 00:53:57.039
what Jenny Lawson has to say right now, speaking on

973
00:53:57.079 --> 00:54:02.280
a megaphone to the world, what would you say.

974
00:54:00.679 --> 00:54:02.559
If I could make them believe it?

975
00:54:03.039 --> 00:54:06.719
I would say be kind because I think kindness is

976
00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:10.159
something that's sort of missing a lot right now, and

977
00:54:10.199 --> 00:54:13.760
not just kindness to each other, but kindness to ourselves.

978
00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:18.519
But because I believe that probably most of the people

979
00:54:18.639 --> 00:54:21.800
that I would say, you know, be kind, are probably

980
00:54:21.840 --> 00:54:24.880
already kind, and the other people would be like, okay,

981
00:54:24.920 --> 00:54:26.440
you can't tell me what to do, and I'm like, yeah,

982
00:54:26.440 --> 00:54:29.079
that makes sense. So instead, I guess I would say

983
00:54:29.239 --> 00:54:35.679
depression lies because it does so cunningly, and every single

984
00:54:35.719 --> 00:54:39.079
time I'm in a depression, every time I have to

985
00:54:39.159 --> 00:54:45.199
remind myself my depression is telling me lies and all

986
00:54:45.239 --> 00:54:47.880
of the things that it is saying that I'm worthless,

987
00:54:47.920 --> 00:54:50.199
that the world would be better off without me, that

988
00:54:50.679 --> 00:54:54.400
none of those things are accurate, and that I just

989
00:54:54.519 --> 00:54:56.760
have to hold on long enough that I come out

990
00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:01.920
and can look back and go, oh wait, wait, that

991
00:55:02.119 --> 00:55:06.599
was my depression. That was an illness taking over my brain.

992
00:55:06.719 --> 00:55:07.800
And that's not true.

993
00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:13.960
It's not But when you're in there, it is impossible.

994
00:55:14.599 --> 00:55:19.320
To not hear those lies. So if there is somebody

995
00:55:19.320 --> 00:55:22.280
out there and they are right now struggling, I would say,

996
00:55:22.400 --> 00:55:25.920
you're not alone. Reach out for help. There are so

997
00:55:26.039 --> 00:55:29.280
many people who love you, and you put out ripples

998
00:55:29.320 --> 00:55:33.599
in the universe that you have no clue how much

999
00:55:33.639 --> 00:55:37.840
you affect other people in wonderful, incredible ways.

1000
00:55:37.880 --> 00:55:40.960
You are doing so much better than you think.

1001
00:55:41.360 --> 00:55:45.480
You just have to wait until you get out so

1002
00:55:45.519 --> 00:55:49.320
that you can see that firsthand. Until then, just trust me,

1003
00:55:49.679 --> 00:55:52.480
you are so worth it. You are worth asking for

1004
00:55:52.519 --> 00:55:55.639
the help. You're worth the work that it takes. And

1005
00:55:55.719 --> 00:56:02.000
it is work. It is hard, and it's time consuming,

1006
00:56:02.119 --> 00:56:04.760
and it takes money, and it's very easy to say,

1007
00:56:05.800 --> 00:56:08.519
oh I really don't need that medication, or oh I

1008
00:56:08.519 --> 00:56:11.280
don't really need that therapist, or oh I don't need

1009
00:56:11.320 --> 00:56:15.119
to call a crisis helpline.

1010
00:56:15.360 --> 00:56:18.119
But you deserve all of that.

1011
00:56:18.400 --> 00:56:21.480
You deserve every bit of help that you need, and

1012
00:56:21.599 --> 00:56:25.800
everybody does. And I always try to tell people like,

1013
00:56:26.039 --> 00:56:29.679
if the things that you're saying in your brain say

1014
00:56:29.719 --> 00:56:32.599
those same things about somebody that you love, so instead

1015
00:56:32.599 --> 00:56:34.320
I would be like, okay, so those same things that

1016
00:56:34.360 --> 00:56:36.960
I'm thinking, if my kid was thinking that, I would

1017
00:56:37.000 --> 00:56:39.719
be like, oh my god, how could you possibly think

1018
00:56:39.800 --> 00:56:44.039
that that is what? And so if it's not true

1019
00:56:44.199 --> 00:56:46.760
for them, it's probably not true for me either, And

1020
00:56:46.800 --> 00:56:48.639
it's probably not true for any of you out there

1021
00:56:48.639 --> 00:56:51.159
who are listening and are thinking those things.

1022
00:56:53.119 --> 00:56:55.519
What do you do on days when you because asking

1023
00:56:55.559 --> 00:56:58.360
for help is part of it, right, and understanding that

1024
00:56:58.840 --> 00:57:02.360
help exists does not asking for help does not equal

1025
00:57:02.360 --> 00:57:05.480
failure too, and it doesn't mean you're broken and all

1026
00:57:05.519 --> 00:57:08.320
of that. You know, you walk through that very beautifully,

1027
00:57:08.400 --> 00:57:11.159
but also, what do you do when your brain just

1028
00:57:11.199 --> 00:57:14.719
won't when your brain won't cooperate? How do you work

1029
00:57:14.760 --> 00:57:15.119
through that?

1030
00:57:16.159 --> 00:57:17.960
So lots of different things.

1031
00:57:18.639 --> 00:57:24.599
I have a ton of tools that I have put together,

1032
00:57:24.800 --> 00:57:27.559
and in my soul, I have treatment resistant depression, which

1033
00:57:27.599 --> 00:57:31.039
means that I've gone through I want to say it's

1034
00:57:31.360 --> 00:57:34.400
more than eight different types of treatment. Is when you

1035
00:57:34.440 --> 00:57:37.400
get to treatment to be called treatment resistant, and that

1036
00:57:37.440 --> 00:57:40.400
doesn't mean that treatment doesn't help it does. It just

1037
00:57:40.480 --> 00:57:44.239
means that it's not you're probably not going to find

1038
00:57:44.400 --> 00:57:49.199
a cure. And so so I know going in I'm

1039
00:57:49.360 --> 00:57:52.199
going to continue to have these depressive periods for probably

1040
00:57:52.199 --> 00:57:53.079
the rest of my life.

1041
00:57:53.760 --> 00:57:56.280
But a couple of things.

1042
00:57:56.360 --> 00:57:59.639
First that when I'm not in a depression, I grab

1043
00:57:59.679 --> 00:58:02.760
hold of life and I'm like, I deserve to have fun,

1044
00:58:03.199 --> 00:58:07.880
I deserve to take care of myself, and so that's

1045
00:58:07.920 --> 00:58:08.440
one of them.

1046
00:58:08.519 --> 00:58:10.000
The other thing is.

1047
00:58:10.960 --> 00:58:14.400
Finding those tools sort of in advance, which can be

1048
00:58:14.440 --> 00:58:17.480
really hard because when you're depressed, you have the least

1049
00:58:17.599 --> 00:58:20.599
amount of energy you will ever have, and that's when

1050
00:58:20.599 --> 00:58:23.639
you have to be on your your your biggest guard. Right.

1051
00:58:24.960 --> 00:58:27.039
So one of the things that I do.

1052
00:58:27.159 --> 00:58:30.840
Is I have in my phone and I highly recommend

1053
00:58:30.840 --> 00:58:36.400
this for everybody, find crisis help lines and look at

1054
00:58:36.440 --> 00:58:39.079
look beforehand, look when you're not even in danger and

1055
00:58:39.280 --> 00:58:41.800
go and find a really good one and put it

1056
00:58:41.840 --> 00:58:44.760
in your phone under you know, if in danger, call

1057
00:58:44.880 --> 00:58:49.400
this number. And the great thing about that is you

1058
00:58:49.440 --> 00:58:52.400
may never use it, but if you do use it,

1059
00:58:52.480 --> 00:58:54.760
you've already done the research. Because sometimes there are some

1060
00:58:54.800 --> 00:58:56.840
of those crisis lines that you'll call and they'll be like,

1061
00:58:56.960 --> 00:58:59.159
sounds like you're too gay or what you know? You

1062
00:58:59.199 --> 00:59:00.880
don't know, right, So if you do a little bit

1063
00:59:00.920 --> 00:59:05.199
of research, you can be like, oh, okay, okay, And

1064
00:59:04.880 --> 00:59:08.039
there's different ones for are you a person of column,

1065
00:59:08.639 --> 00:59:12.400
are you queer, are you whatever it is? Are you

1066
00:59:12.440 --> 00:59:12.840
a teen?

1067
00:59:12.960 --> 00:59:13.320
Are you?

1068
00:59:13.960 --> 00:59:18.400
So you can find that I have found that really helpful.

1069
00:59:19.920 --> 00:59:23.000
Sometimes I will say like I need help finding a doctor.

1070
00:59:23.119 --> 00:59:26.119
They can help in that way. Sometimes it's just you

1071
00:59:26.159 --> 00:59:27.880
need somebody to sit with you on the phone during

1072
00:59:28.039 --> 00:59:32.360
like the dangerous small hours, to just kind of sit there.

1073
00:59:34.199 --> 00:59:40.119
The other thing is realizing that when a treatment fails

1074
00:59:40.239 --> 00:59:42.159
for you does not mean that you failed.

1075
00:59:42.800 --> 00:59:44.360
And it's so easy.

1076
00:59:44.440 --> 00:59:47.119
Like if you have cancer and you're like, oh, okay,

1077
00:59:47.159 --> 00:59:49.679
well you know the chemo didn't work, so now we're

1078
00:59:49.679 --> 00:59:51.599
going to go to surgery. You didn't go like, well,

1079
00:59:51.679 --> 00:59:54.440
you failed chemo, so I don't think you deserve surgery.

1080
00:59:54.960 --> 00:59:57.079
We would never do that, So why do we do that.

1081
00:59:56.960 --> 01:00:00.320
With depression where it's like, well, that medication you know,

1082
01:00:00.480 --> 01:00:03.119
stopped working or didn't work. So I guess I'm just

1083
01:00:03.199 --> 01:00:07.800
gonna raw dog life for the No. Instead, you have

1084
01:00:07.880 --> 01:00:15.800
to continually work. I have tried transcranial magnetic stimulation, which

1085
01:00:15.840 --> 01:00:19.199
is very helpful, but it took a lot of time.

1086
01:00:20.159 --> 01:00:24.679
I do still take antidepressants, which help, they just don't

1087
01:00:25.519 --> 01:00:27.239
They're not enough to completely get over.

1088
01:00:28.280 --> 01:00:31.039
I do every six weeks or so.

1089
01:00:31.239 --> 01:00:36.039
I have ketamine injections by a doctor, which have been

1090
01:00:36.599 --> 01:00:38.840
really helpful. Super scary.

1091
01:00:39.079 --> 01:00:40.079
I got a pre warn you.

1092
01:00:40.360 --> 01:00:43.280
Nobody told me that, Like I was, like, what the

1093
01:00:43.320 --> 01:00:47.559
stuff that I didn't do in college? Ah, that's you know, Yeah,

1094
01:00:47.599 --> 01:00:50.039
you go out and dance at a rave and you

1095
01:00:50.079 --> 01:00:53.920
know this is this is a very different, different setting,

1096
01:00:54.039 --> 01:00:55.280
different different everything.

1097
01:00:56.760 --> 01:00:58.239
But it's been really helpful.

1098
01:00:58.760 --> 01:01:02.159
And so going out and finding those things.

1099
01:01:01.920 --> 01:01:07.360
Are are important to you, they're important to your.

1100
01:01:07.199 --> 01:01:12.800
Family, and they are they are worth the They aren't expensive.

1101
01:01:13.000 --> 01:01:17.559
They are time consuming, they are tiring and exhausting, and

1102
01:01:17.840 --> 01:01:22.400
you know, finding support can be really hard, but it

1103
01:01:22.480 --> 01:01:24.920
is absolutely worth.

1104
01:01:24.719 --> 01:01:31.559
It, and you should get Jenny Lawson's new book called

1105
01:01:32.159 --> 01:01:34.719
How to Be Okay When Things Are Not Okay, because

1106
01:01:34.760 --> 01:01:38.079
there are tips in that book that are very practical

1107
01:01:38.599 --> 01:01:44.519
and real. And had the crew of the Good Morning

1108
01:01:44.559 --> 01:01:48.239
America drooling. If you don't know what I'm talking about,

1109
01:01:48.360 --> 01:01:51.239
you need to go see what was happening there. And

1110
01:01:51.519 --> 01:01:54.400
I thought it was so funny because my friend Jenny

1111
01:01:54.440 --> 01:01:56.119
was nervous about being on the show and then she

1112
01:01:56.239 --> 01:01:58.360
literally went on the show and she made the entire

1113
01:01:58.480 --> 01:02:02.159
crew drool on air. It was great. It was so good.

1114
01:02:02.199 --> 01:02:05.280
But the reason behind it was is amazing, and it

1115
01:02:05.320 --> 01:02:08.840
is that like, scientifically, and you can you can feed

1116
01:02:08.880 --> 01:02:11.559
into this however you want, but scientifically we can trick

1117
01:02:11.599 --> 01:02:17.000
ourselves into triggering dopamine. Are doing nish right like you

1118
01:02:17.119 --> 01:02:19.559
and people who are listening are like, what just happened?

1119
01:02:19.679 --> 01:02:21.760
I put my I put my pen in my mouth

1120
01:02:22.519 --> 01:02:25.920
and it made me smile, which is the weirdest, most

1121
01:02:26.000 --> 01:02:28.480
ugly smell you've ever seen. But the point is when

1122
01:02:28.519 --> 01:02:32.480
your face smiles, you trigger dopamine and serotonin in your brain,

1123
01:02:32.840 --> 01:02:34.880
whether you're like doing it because you want to or

1124
01:02:34.880 --> 01:02:36.360
you're doing it because you have a pencil in your mouth.

1125
01:02:36.400 --> 01:02:39.559
So talk us through that situation on the Today Show.

1126
01:02:40.800 --> 01:02:44.480
Yeah, so they wanted to talk about different tools that

1127
01:02:44.519 --> 01:02:46.840
were available, and that that's one of them.

1128
01:02:47.920 --> 01:02:49.960
There's a lot of other good ones that don't involve

1129
01:02:49.960 --> 01:02:53.599
pencils in your mouth, guys, so exactly.

1130
01:02:53.719 --> 01:02:57.719
And yeah, and I, you know, explained it. And I

1131
01:02:57.760 --> 01:02:59.960
they had some pencils there, and I was like, so everybody,

1132
01:03:00.079 --> 01:03:01.840
you put that, and so everybody.

1133
01:03:01.360 --> 01:03:03.119
Put their the pencil in their mouth.

1134
01:03:03.119 --> 01:03:05.880
And then I started to talk about, you know, different things,

1135
01:03:05.880 --> 01:03:07.320
but I still had the pencil in my mouth, and

1136
01:03:07.360 --> 01:03:10.159
so I was like, we're all gonna drill, and I

1137
01:03:10.159 --> 01:03:12.599
think we did a little bit. I also, uh, for

1138
01:03:12.679 --> 01:03:16.159
some reason, started talking about anxiety diarrhea, and then I

1139
01:03:16.199 --> 01:03:18.159
was like, I don't know what to do with my hands.

1140
01:03:18.400 --> 01:03:21.199
And then I and I say that and literally my

1141
01:03:21.239 --> 01:03:23.599
hands are up right now. I'm constantly doing this and

1142
01:03:23.639 --> 01:03:25.880
then so then I sit on my hands and then

1143
01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:28.280
immediately pulled them back out because my hands are like, no,

1144
01:03:28.400 --> 01:03:30.599
you need to be up in your face. It was

1145
01:03:31.320 --> 01:03:35.159
so ridiculous. I watched it once and oh my god.

1146
01:03:35.199 --> 01:03:37.239
And then I started talking about my foot falling off.

1147
01:03:37.280 --> 01:03:38.480
I didn't even say it the right way.

1148
01:03:38.519 --> 01:03:41.239
I said my foot fall off, which I don't know.

1149
01:03:41.320 --> 01:03:44.039
And my uh so Haley called right after and they

1150
01:03:44.039 --> 01:03:44.519
were like.

1151
01:03:44.519 --> 01:03:46.360
Mom, I'm so proud of you. Oh my god, dude,

1152
01:03:46.360 --> 01:03:46.880
it's so good.

1153
01:03:47.159 --> 01:03:50.800
But my foot fall off and so and so now

1154
01:03:50.880 --> 01:03:51.840
that is my constant.

1155
01:03:52.039 --> 01:03:53.679
I need to make a T shirt that just says.

1156
01:03:53.480 --> 01:03:56.440
My footfall literally. Merch people will are people. We will

1157
01:03:56.440 --> 01:04:01.119
buy it by footprint, footfall off rich ideas one oh one.

1158
01:04:01.199 --> 01:04:05.199
It's a good time. It's always a party here. Okay.

1159
01:04:05.440 --> 01:04:09.280
Is there anything specific that I didn't ask you that

1160
01:04:09.360 --> 01:04:10.440
you would like to share?

1161
01:04:13.320 --> 01:04:16.920
No, you're great. You have asked such good questions.

1162
01:04:17.119 --> 01:04:19.239
Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. You know,

1163
01:04:19.280 --> 01:04:22.480
I'm new with this, and I am very grateful that

1164
01:04:22.719 --> 01:04:25.280
so far that seems to be what people think is

1165
01:04:25.280 --> 01:04:28.639
that I do ask good questions, and I appreciate that

1166
01:04:28.719 --> 01:04:31.039
you say that. So before we wrap, I do have

1167
01:04:31.119 --> 01:04:35.239
one more, one more question, and it has to do

1168
01:04:35.320 --> 01:04:38.079
with something that existed in a prior life that we

1169
01:04:38.119 --> 01:04:40.360
don't that you don't do anymore. And I'm so I'm

1170
01:04:40.440 --> 01:04:42.320
so excited and so proud of you that you don't

1171
01:04:42.360 --> 01:04:45.719
have to do it anymore. An in an interview or

1172
01:04:45.760 --> 01:04:48.519
something you used to write on your arm something like

1173
01:04:48.599 --> 01:04:51.559
pretend you are good at this. Pretend you are good

1174
01:04:51.559 --> 01:04:54.280
at this, And then you shared a story of how

1175
01:04:54.320 --> 01:04:57.000
people would come up to you and cross out that

1176
01:04:57.039 --> 01:05:02.719
word pretend because Jenny, my friend, you are good at this,

1177
01:05:02.960 --> 01:05:06.480
and I am proof because you have a way of

1178
01:05:06.599 --> 01:05:10.559
leaving a light in the world behind you after you've

1179
01:05:10.679 --> 01:05:14.119
left that space, whether it's in your writing, whether it's

1180
01:05:14.159 --> 01:05:16.760
in a room, whether it's in you know, the the

1181
01:05:17.599 --> 01:05:21.440
on the internet, in a blog post, and it's it's

1182
01:05:21.719 --> 01:05:24.280
personal for me. So I want to take a second

1183
01:05:24.400 --> 01:05:27.199
and thank you for saying something that has lived rent

1184
01:05:27.199 --> 01:05:30.440
free in my mind about two years ago, and I'm

1185
01:05:30.440 --> 01:05:31.920
going to read it so that I don't get it wrong.

1186
01:05:32.800 --> 01:05:37.119
It says, sometimes the path that you go down doesn't

1187
01:05:37.159 --> 01:05:41.239
look right to other people, but the path, but it

1188
01:05:41.320 --> 01:05:43.400
is the path that you're supposed to be going down.

1189
01:05:43.519 --> 01:05:47.559
You find your own journey. And for the friends that

1190
01:05:47.599 --> 01:05:49.440
have been with me on this journey, that is the

1191
01:05:49.519 --> 01:05:51.960
quick before you forget podcasts. So far, I've talked quite

1192
01:05:52.000 --> 01:05:55.880
a bit about my yellow brick road, and that thought

1193
01:05:56.199 --> 01:06:00.760
has been a light for me to keep me going,

1194
01:06:00.800 --> 01:06:02.719
to keep me showing up, to keep me you know,

1195
01:06:02.960 --> 01:06:05.280
doing this thing that I that I believe in with

1196
01:06:05.360 --> 01:06:09.239
my whole heart. So Jenny, thank you because you are

1197
01:06:09.360 --> 01:06:12.760
good at this and we as a people that have

1198
01:06:12.840 --> 01:06:15.079
found your content and loved it for all these years,

1199
01:06:15.400 --> 01:06:19.480
are so grateful for you. So I have nothing more

1200
01:06:19.480 --> 01:06:23.159
to say than thank you. I'm grateful for you. And

1201
01:06:23.760 --> 01:06:25.960
we'll see you guys next time on Quick Before You

1202
01:06:25.960 --> 01:06:27.400
Forget Awesome.

1203
01:06:27.519 --> 01:06:28.920
Thank you so much for having me.

1204
01:06:29.440 --> 01:06:34.000
Thank you for being here. Bye, thank you for being

1205
01:06:34.000 --> 01:06:37.719
here with me today on Quick Before You Forget. Please like,

1206
01:06:37.880 --> 01:06:40.960
share and subscribe as that helps the show so much

1207
01:06:41.000 --> 01:06:43.480
and I really appreciate it. And I'll see you next

1208
01:06:43.519 --> 01:06:45.320
time on Quick Before You Forget.