Sept. 28, 2026

Believe in Your Magic: Alice of Oz with Terence Sullivan and Ellen Baker

Believe in Your Magic: Alice of Oz with Terence Sullivan and Ellen Baker

Terence Sullivan had no business writing a book. His words, not mine. He has a degree in painting, didn't know the “rules” of writing (especially with commas), struggles with imposter syndrome, and wrote his first manuscript with his thumbs in the...

Terence Sullivan had no business writing a book.

His words, not mine.

He has a degree in painting, didn't know the “rules” of writing (especially with commas), struggles with imposter syndrome, and wrote his first manuscript with his thumbs in the Notes app on his phone while sitting with his young children at 4 a.m.

Then he met award-winning novelist and editor Ellen Baker and she saw the storyteller in him before he could always see it himself.

Years later, a viral storytelling series has become Alice of Oz, an adult gothic portal fantasy and the first book in The Oz Multiverse, where Alice Liddell, Wendy Darling, and the characters of Oz collide in a story about identity, power, imagination, and learning to trust what you know to be true even when the world tells you otherwise.

But this conversation became about so much more than a book.

We talk about the people who carry belief for us when ours falters. Imposter syndrome. Grief transforming into creation. Why Alice stops looking in the mirror. Raising children who experience the world differently. Letting go of false narratives and doubt. Following the next brick when you can't see the whole yellow brick road.

And then something happened none of us planned. We started talking about magic.

Tears became laughter. Laughter became full-body chills. And three people who had never shared a room before realized that maybe this conversation was supposed to happen exactly when it did. For anyone who has ever believed in something no one else could see yet, this one is for you.

Thank you for your magic.

WEBVTT

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I think Alice is more quickly sympathetic to other people's

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pain before she is to hers. And so it's when

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she's watching the injustice with Wendy, and that's really where

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you see her kind of behave as she truly is

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meant to be, because the injustice is when she's like, nope, stop.

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We're not doing that. And so it's very much, I think,

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her starting to listen more to her voice than to

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anyone else's.

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Whew. Talk about emotions. So as a human being and

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as a woman in this world, I'm going to just

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be really honest and transparent and vulnerable with you two

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because I feel like we're besties now.

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We are.

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Friends, you are not ready. I have the coolest guests today.

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Taryn Sullivan and Ellen Baker are in the house. Hi, guys.

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Hi.

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Hi. Hi, hi, hi. Hi. I'm kind of nervous. I'm

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not going to lie.

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Did you know that fear and excitement are the same

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chemically in your brain?

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They are. That's what I hear. That makes sense. Yes.

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I'm not scared. I'm just excited.

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Exactly. That's where I'm at because, guys, this is totally

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unreal for me. As a fan of all three parts

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of the multiverse of Oz and a fan of both

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of you, I am unwell. And this is the thing.

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I thought we should level set. And I want to

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tell you a little bit about the podcast to start

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with because it's literally a little bit in line with

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everything that you're doing. So quick before you forget. is

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a personal growth and development podcast aimed at helping empower

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people to build their unreal life from the ground up

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using tools like music, mindset, and movement to remember who

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they are while they build who they're meant to be.

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And I know that's a lot.

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I just got emotional. So when Ellen said that you'd

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reached out, I looked you up in the podcast. I

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was like, oh my God, this is perfect. Because this

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I mean, and Ellen can speak more to this, but

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so much of what this whole process was was about

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mindset and about sort of tapping into the gifts that

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I had or she had. And it is it's not easy.

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It's not it's not an easy journey at all.

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No.

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So this is a gift that you're giving that this

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exists for people.

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Thank you. That means the world to me. Truly. Truly.

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And it's every single word of that like really long

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description holds meaning to my soul. So that means a lot.

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And this is unreal. This is happening, but we're making

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it real. It's all very fascinating to me. So I

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think we start there. Like I think you talk us

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through and like start, maybe we rewind because the three

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of us know where we're at, right? But maybe we

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rewind and talk us through that first famous viral TikTok?

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So that, so it's interesting that one, I had had

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some content go viral before that. And the, the, the

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first one was actually, um, uh, Christmas story called, um,

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it was the untold Christmas legend at the time. And

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people had asked, um, people were like, Oh, I want

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a book. I want a book. And I was like, Oh,

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could I do that? And I was like, yeah, why not?

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Of this was 2021, I think it was in Wisconsin.

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It was like the darkest period of my life. And

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I just wrote this book with my thumbs on my

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phone and I got it to sort of a draft.

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I mean, I can't even call it that. I mean, Ellen,

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Ellen will tell you it was one long paragraph. And

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at that time I was like, I need to find

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somebody who truly understands the craft and would be willing

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to be a mentor to me because I feel like I'm,

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my strong suit is that I'm sort of fearless and

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I'll do anything, but the better tenant of my personality

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is I know that I need other people to get

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me there. And so I had sort of started looking

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for editors and then Ellen and I started talking and

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I just sort of fell in love with her. And

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I knew in my heart, I was like, the way

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she wrote women, I was like, this is the person

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that will be that will really protect these characters. So

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that was one book. So I was writing that with

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Ellen when I started doing the Oz multiverse, and then

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that exploded. And I had no idea it would take

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off like that. And so I started churning out more

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and more. And then during that same period, I started,

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or maybe a year later, because that series went on

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for a while, I started querying and agents were asking

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for Oz. And so Ellen and I made the decision.

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It was like Christmas. And I was like, I think

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we're done querying winter tide. And I'm going to focus

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on writing this book for the next two years.

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Ellen, how was that? How was that for you? Like

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being involved with that original story and then pivoting, like

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what was that like on your end?

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It was incredible because, um, first of all, when Terrence

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and I first met, um, he did have this manuscript

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that he had written with his thumbs, which I found amazing.

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I can't type anything with my thumbs.

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And that he had this creative energy, this groundswell of

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energy was so inspiring to me. And I loved, I

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saw so much potential in the way that he visually

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saw stories. And I knew that I could help him

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with the word part of it. And it's not even

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the words, like It's more like the structure of the words.

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He always had the right words. It was just, you know,

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maybe putting them in a different order or putting the

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comma in or putting the paragraph break in.

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The commas are the issue for me.

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But he's such a fast learner and he took his

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background in acting, his training in theater, his brilliant mind

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for scene and point of view. And, and we just,

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he was a sponge and he soaked up everything and

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he worked so hard.

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It was so impressive to me. Like I give him

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this manuscript back with, you.

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Know, a million comments and he would, he would just

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dive in, like, just, just dig into it and he'd

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work and work and work and work.

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And then he'd come back with it.

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And, um, finally, um, we had a manuscript that was

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ready to query and that was so exciting. And we were,

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we were just like, totally thrilled with this book called Wintertide.

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Is that the full title?

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That's not the full title. Once Upon a Winter Tide.

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Once Upon a Winter Tide. Why did that leave my brain?

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You guys speak in code now because you've been working

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together so long. So thank you for translating for us.

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Thank you.

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So anyway, he started querying agents and people were requesting

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it and loving it. But yet they really wanted to

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see Oz and they were worried about Winter Tide being

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a Christmas book and that there's such a short window

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to sell that. Now that was something I had never

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thought of. I just love the story so much. And

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I was like, so excited about it. But as soon

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as we started getting those kind of beat that feedback,

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it was like, you know, you've got this potential here.

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Like Oz is so big on Tik TOK by this time.

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And, you know, he's doing all this stuff at the

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same time he's writing and learning to be a novelist,

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which again, blows my mind. But yeah, so he, he,

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never backs down from a challenge. And we agreed and

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I was like, okay, we're going to do this. We're

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going to, he's going to write the draft. And, and

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it's a long story from there, from all the work

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that went into it from there. But that was early

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2023 that, um, that that decision was made.

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So literally years, like we've been working on this for

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a while and I need to like double click on

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a couple of things because Terrence, you said you were

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writing with, you wrote a manuscript with your thumbs. And

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I like that kind of like went right over here.

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And then she mentioned it again. So did you write

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the whole thing like in your notes app? Like what

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were you doing?

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Yeah. So I, my kids were, my kids were three

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at the time. And so I, there was never a

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time to like be at my computer and they were

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early risers. So it'd be like four in the morning

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and I'd be in the playroom with them just on

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my notes app. And I would just furiously write Did

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I ever go back and edit? Absolutely not. I was like,

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good enough. We're going to keep going.

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Well, progress over perfection.

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Yeah.

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I'm definitely, I'm a believer of, um, don't let good

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enough be the enemy of perfect or whatever that saying is. Yeah. Yeah.

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Well, and there's commas. You said something about commas, but

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you also said Wisconsin.

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Sorry.

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Like I, I wrote down a lot of things and

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it's cause it's a lot, but like, are you, do

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you live in Wisconsin? Were you in Wisconsin?

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I was in Wisconsin briefly for a period. My husband

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was the executive director of a theater out there and

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that took us out there during COVID. We didn't stay long. Commas.

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So I'll just be really transparent about me as a writer.

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I had no business sitting down and saying, oh, I

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can write a book. Like absolutely no business. In fact,

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I still, you know, the imposter syndrome is real. You know,

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I know how to tell a story. I know how

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to write, but I don't know the rules, so to speak.

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I mean, my background, I have a degree in painting, so, like,

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there were no commas in painting. And I was really

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transparent with Ellen about that. I was like, you have

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to teach me everything. And she's so patient, and I'm

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emotional about it, but, like, for her to, for years,

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sort of, just see that potential in me and, like,

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kind of guide me was... I mean, you can't... I

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believe things happen for a reason, and meeting her was

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one of the best things that I think has happened

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to me developing into who I am, truly.

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This may surprise you, both of you, but this is

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a safe space. I don't know why I'm echoing a

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little bit, but this is a safe space, and you

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actually absolutely need to let the emotions fly.

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Oh, that's good, because I can't contain them. That's not

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a possibility for me.

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I I'm right there with you most of the time.

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And it's worse when I'm tired and I am tired.

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Cause as I told you guys, right before we started recording,

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I was reading your book until two 30 in the

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morning because.

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I'm so honored by that.

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It's been that good though. Like we, we had guys,

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you can go check the Tik TOK. There's proof. We

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had a little chat on Terrence's Tik TOK about this

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because I said what I said, and then being humble Terrence,

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he said, what? That's crazy. I'm so humbled. Thank you

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so much. I'm emotional. And I said, well, yes, because

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when you're flying, you stay flying. Like I am flying

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high from this book because it's so good and it's

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flying in my heart. It's flying in my soul. And

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the conversation around like how it came to be is

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just really stinking cool. So talk us through then once

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you pivoted from like the, what was it? The winter one.

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I'm forgetting.

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Wintertide.

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Wintertide.

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So once you pivoted from wintertide, first of all, Big pivot,

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lots of characters, like, fully different universes, fully different, like,

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let's pause on that for a second, because, like, that

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was a huge mental shift, I'm sure. I noticed you're

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giving the people what they were asking for. So, like,

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you were getting inundated with all of the messages and

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all of the messages about, like, this is a book,

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you need to write this book. And you're still dealing

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with imposter syndrome, even though you've written a masterpiece about

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00:12:41.240 --> 00:12:45.840
So the stories, though, that you're telling with people believing

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in things that other people can't see. So we have

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Alice believing in something that people can't see. We have

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Wendy believing in something that people can't see. When did you,

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Terrence and Ellen, start believing in what you couldn't see

234
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in this book?

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Ellen, you want to take that one? I'm just trying

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to recover for the second.

237
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Yeah.

238
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Yeah, and I get emotional too because I believed in

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Terrence from the first and that has been a big

240
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part of our process has been believing in each other

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when the other one would falter a little bit. But

242
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I always saw him as a storyteller. And the storytelling

243
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is the hard part of being an author. The other part,

244
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the technical parts, you can learn, you can be taught.

245
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And it means so much to me to hear you

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say what you're saying about the book, because those are

247
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the things that I saw in it from the beginning.

248
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And I've just been waiting for the world to discover

249
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Terrence as an author, because I just cannot wait for

250
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the world to, to experience this story. I just, every

251
00:14:06.399 --> 00:14:08.120
time I would read a new draft, I would be

252
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blown away. And then I sent him back all these

253
00:14:10.860 --> 00:14:12.779
comments of like, what if you did this? And what

254
00:14:12.820 --> 00:14:15.460
if you did this? And, and like, let's straighten out

255
00:14:15.500 --> 00:14:18.200
this storyline. Cause I'm a big one for combing through it,

256
00:14:18.259 --> 00:14:21.250
like threads and like making sure all the details line

257
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up and all the magic is correct. And you know,

258
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all that stuff. And so, so he's the big picture,

259
00:14:28.110 --> 00:14:31.149
the big strokes. And I'm the like, let's get that little,

260
00:14:31.580 --> 00:14:36.230
period in there. I always, I always believed it. I

261
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always believed in it from the first time we talked.

262
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And we need that. Yeah.

263
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Well, I couldn't, I could, there's no, there's no world where,

264
00:14:45.149 --> 00:14:47.289
I mean, I think that I, I think that that's right.

265
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I think that Ellen at times carried the belief for me.

266
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And I think that, and I remember I, I remember

267
00:14:56.039 --> 00:14:58.399
so much about the first draft, like writing Ellen and

268
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being like, what? Who the fuck do I think I

269
00:15:00.620 --> 00:15:02.259
am writing this story? Do you know what I mean?

270
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Like who in the world would take this on? And

271
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then I think that because the really the community that

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I'm very fortunate that I feel like I've built a

273
00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:17.190
community that's really supportive and receives a lot of value

274
00:15:17.269 --> 00:15:20.039
from my content people. if it's crazy or whatever it is.

275
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And so I sort of felt like it, it didn't

276
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totally belong to me. So I was just sort of like,

277
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I've been tasked with doing this by support. And so

278
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it's like, I couldn't really, I couldn't really quit. You

279
00:15:32.830 --> 00:15:33.389
know what I mean?

280
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Like that it was for everyone else. I, for the

281
00:15:38.830 --> 00:15:41.970
people that watch the show, they get to see the

282
00:15:42.009 --> 00:15:44.980
fun things that I have in collection behind me. One

283
00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:48.029
of which is a Lego set with Oz and, And

284
00:15:48.049 --> 00:15:48.750
the Emerald City.

285
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I see it.

286
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Yes, it's there. It's there. And the Yellow Brick Road.

287
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And I talk about my Yellow Brick Road and how

288
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I feel like for years now, I keep showing up

289
00:16:00.740 --> 00:16:04.340
and I never, I told a story on the show

290
00:16:04.759 --> 00:16:07.039
recently about how I was legally blind when I was

291
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four years old. I was, I couldn't see the big,

292
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the big E, like the big one.

293
00:16:12.509 --> 00:16:12.929
Yeah.

294
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But I was four, so I didn't know letters.

295
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It was a K.

296
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And I couldn't tell that it was a birthday cake.

297
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And I couldn't see out of my left eye. So

298
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my mom patched my right eye to help encourage my

299
00:16:25.399 --> 00:16:28.730
muscles and stuff to work. And now I got to

300
00:16:28.769 --> 00:16:31.250
be an adult who could see. And I started riding

301
00:16:31.309 --> 00:16:34.570
roller coasters and decided to close my eyes. Like I

302
00:16:34.629 --> 00:16:36.720
could see. I was an adult that could see. And

303
00:16:36.740 --> 00:16:39.480
I decided to close my eyes because it was too scary.

304
00:16:39.940 --> 00:16:42.799
And now here I am, a 41-year-old woman. who can

305
00:16:42.940 --> 00:16:45.460
see and I'm living life with my eyes open and

306
00:16:45.500 --> 00:16:48.000
my heart open and my arms up. And I'm embracing

307
00:16:48.019 --> 00:16:52.210
this internet persona I'm inheriting kind of called the emo

308
00:16:52.259 --> 00:16:55.830
rollercoaster gal. And I can't see anything in front of

309
00:16:55.870 --> 00:16:58.110
me more than like a foot. Like, so that's what

310
00:16:58.129 --> 00:17:00.870
the yellow brick road is for me. The yellow brick

311
00:17:00.909 --> 00:17:03.529
road is a thing where I believe that I keep

312
00:17:03.570 --> 00:17:06.150
showing up and the bricks keep happening in front of me.

313
00:17:06.609 --> 00:17:08.150
And I don't always know if they're going to fall

314
00:17:08.210 --> 00:17:10.059
out from under me. if they're going to be crunchy,

315
00:17:10.380 --> 00:17:12.319
if they're going to kick my butt, you know, but

316
00:17:12.339 --> 00:17:14.799
they're there, they keep showing up and I keep doing

317
00:17:15.019 --> 00:17:19.000
the thing. That's the hard thing, the scary thing. And

318
00:17:19.720 --> 00:17:24.569
it's always better with people. Like it's always better with

319
00:17:24.609 --> 00:17:27.130
the people that come along and help you on your

320
00:17:27.170 --> 00:17:29.089
yellow brick road. I believe that you two were meant

321
00:17:29.230 --> 00:17:32.269
to come together and work on this and be really

322
00:17:32.289 --> 00:17:35.089
good compliments for each other, which gets me to my

323
00:17:35.130 --> 00:17:37.029
question that I can't wait to ask you because in

324
00:17:37.069 --> 00:17:39.750
my research, I learned, and you guys can correct me

325
00:17:39.789 --> 00:17:41.349
if I'm wrong on this, but in my research, I

326
00:17:41.390 --> 00:17:44.259
learned that there's something about a hundred pages of diary

327
00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:46.190
or journal that didn't make it.

328
00:17:47.200 --> 00:17:51.680
Oh, well, yes. So there is, there's more than way

329
00:17:51.720 --> 00:17:53.980
more than that. But I, that the one topic you're

330
00:17:54.180 --> 00:17:57.559
speaking about, so there was a character called Dr. James

331
00:17:57.640 --> 00:18:02.400
Preston and he was Alice's psychoanalyst and they had a,

332
00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:07.119
an amazing relationship. And so much of what he, this

333
00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:10.690
was the research Did I lose you? Oh, my computer's weird.

334
00:18:10.849 --> 00:18:12.869
Some of the research that I was doing when I

335
00:18:12.970 --> 00:18:16.559
started Oz was around dream analysis and the different schools

336
00:18:16.599 --> 00:18:21.220
of thought. And I was using James very much as

337
00:18:21.299 --> 00:18:25.180
a way to sort of help Alice through sort of

338
00:18:25.220 --> 00:18:30.119
what she was trying to process. And in building him,

339
00:18:30.309 --> 00:18:32.650
I basically became him. I mean, he is very much

340
00:18:32.789 --> 00:18:33.809
me on the page.

341
00:18:33.829 --> 00:18:34.789
Yeah.

342
00:18:35.769 --> 00:18:39.890
And so we actually both loved and adored him. And

343
00:18:40.529 --> 00:18:43.539
he was in the final manuscript that got sent to agents.

344
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And once I got my agent, she read through it

345
00:18:47.740 --> 00:18:50.900
and she said, I don't think we need him. And

346
00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:54.039
so it was like, I could have said, no, this

347
00:18:54.099 --> 00:18:56.119
is the book as it is. But I, again, believe

348
00:18:56.170 --> 00:19:01.230
in smarter, mostly women, smarter women. Their perspective is very

349
00:19:01.289 --> 00:19:04.670
valuable to me. And so we went, I think it took,

350
00:19:05.089 --> 00:19:09.319
a few months, but I effectively sort of removed a

351
00:19:09.380 --> 00:19:12.160
huge piece of that book and then had to recraft

352
00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:14.400
the story without him. And it is a better book

353
00:19:14.440 --> 00:19:17.900
without him, but he was amazing. We love James Preston.

354
00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:19.220
We thank him for his service.

355
00:19:20.849 --> 00:19:23.430
Yes, and we hope to see him again, perhaps.

356
00:19:23.910 --> 00:19:27.170
Perhaps we will in books two and three, which are

357
00:19:27.410 --> 00:19:29.170
all already brainstormed.

358
00:19:30.309 --> 00:19:37.170
Yep. I'd say that every major plot and arc is

359
00:19:37.269 --> 00:19:39.819
pretty much constructed. And so now it's just sort of

360
00:19:40.740 --> 00:19:41.900
building the world around that.

361
00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:46.509
And that is so cool because you took something that,

362
00:19:46.769 --> 00:19:50.250
and something, well, I am getting ahead of myself because

363
00:19:50.269 --> 00:19:53.230
I wanted to say something more about the pages that

364
00:19:53.250 --> 00:19:56.619
got lost. Is this the stuff that, were you therapizing yourself?

365
00:19:57.740 --> 00:20:02.000
Oh, I'm always therapizing myself. I'm sure. I mean, anytime

366
00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:03.440
Ellen and I were talking, we're like, well, you know

367
00:20:03.500 --> 00:20:05.140
how I would process this. Right.

368
00:20:06.029 --> 00:20:09.269
So that character sounds like a therapy session for you,

369
00:20:09.549 --> 00:20:12.069
which is really fun. And like, I, I, I do

370
00:20:12.089 --> 00:20:14.150
that too in writing. Like you do, you do, you

371
00:20:14.170 --> 00:20:18.710
do that. And it's fascinating. And I'm wondering, it makes

372
00:20:18.750 --> 00:20:22.789
me actually legitimately curious. Like what, what was that the

373
00:20:22.829 --> 00:20:24.819
hardest thing that you let go of for the book?

374
00:20:24.990 --> 00:20:26.930
Or was there something that was more challenging than that?

375
00:20:29.960 --> 00:20:32.720
You know, I would say that was the hardest thing

376
00:20:32.779 --> 00:20:38.869
to let go of. Um, really that whole, it's such

377
00:20:38.910 --> 00:20:43.960
a beautiful and complex sort of world that the, because

378
00:20:43.980 --> 00:20:46.039
we don't get London after she leaves, but that he

379
00:20:46.099 --> 00:20:51.700
remained in London for a time. But when the thing

380
00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:54.539
I learned is I can't be precious, like this, as

381
00:20:54.619 --> 00:20:56.920
much as I want to hold on to things like this,

382
00:20:57.339 --> 00:21:01.079
it's about this story being the best story. And so when,

383
00:21:01.539 --> 00:21:04.259
you know, be it Ellen or, you know, Deborah, who's

384
00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:06.769
titan in the industry says like it would be better

385
00:21:06.789 --> 00:21:11.569
without this i'm i will absolutely take that advice at

386
00:21:11.609 --> 00:21:13.859
least try it there's definitely been times where we've tried

387
00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:16.619
edits that were recommended and i've been like no that's

388
00:21:16.920 --> 00:21:17.539
it doesn't work.

389
00:21:18.420 --> 00:21:21.059
So how do you stay how do you respect what's

390
00:21:21.140 --> 00:21:26.190
already there in the stories When you're trying to, because

391
00:21:26.569 --> 00:21:30.650
people obviously are very passionate about all of these different

392
00:21:30.710 --> 00:21:34.059
stories and those stories are precious. So how do you

393
00:21:34.539 --> 00:21:38.099
navigate that windy road of trying to make sure that

394
00:21:38.140 --> 00:21:41.240
you're adding to the story, but also respecting what's there?

395
00:21:41.980 --> 00:21:44.099
It's such, that's such a good question because I mean,

396
00:21:44.140 --> 00:21:46.619
no kidding. Like if you want to talk about a

397
00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:49.549
loud community, like the purists, I mean, the purists are

398
00:21:49.569 --> 00:21:50.920
going to have a problem with, they're not even going

399
00:21:50.940 --> 00:21:54.670
to pick it up. That's fine. Um, but there's such a,

400
00:21:54.849 --> 00:21:58.089
there's such a large community of people who are looking, they,

401
00:21:58.309 --> 00:22:00.789
they want that feeling back or they, they want, you know, they,

402
00:22:01.109 --> 00:22:03.609
they've attached themselves to Alice and they, you know, at

403
00:22:03.650 --> 00:22:06.430
the most vulnerable parts of our life, we've connected with

404
00:22:06.470 --> 00:22:10.740
these characters. And so for me, there are, I wanted

405
00:22:10.819 --> 00:22:15.779
very much, um, that the canon was respected, that every

406
00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:20.470
sort of new iteration of it could be drawn back

407
00:22:20.529 --> 00:22:22.710
to the book and say, I understand how this would

408
00:22:22.769 --> 00:22:25.750
evolve into this. But I think the biggest thing was

409
00:22:25.930 --> 00:22:30.140
in developing Alice and Wendy, even though she's a small

410
00:22:30.180 --> 00:22:32.980
part of this book, it was, we talked at length about,

411
00:22:33.220 --> 00:22:37.220
based on who they were in the children's books, if

412
00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:40.349
we had them sort of evolve in this environment, who

413
00:22:40.420 --> 00:22:43.069
would they become? What would they still hold on to

414
00:22:43.130 --> 00:22:46.019
from those characters? And what would be a tension And

415
00:22:46.119 --> 00:22:51.390
so I felt like the character arc remained so true

416
00:22:51.509 --> 00:22:54.210
to who I believed they were in the children's stories

417
00:22:54.289 --> 00:22:57.630
that as long... And Ellen was really great about protecting

418
00:22:57.670 --> 00:22:59.170
them where she would be like, I don't think Alice

419
00:22:59.190 --> 00:23:01.410
would do this or I think Wendy would be feeling this.

420
00:23:02.069 --> 00:23:04.569
And so as long as I stayed true to those

421
00:23:04.690 --> 00:23:09.420
two characters, everything else really felt... Like, I don't feel

422
00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:12.680
like anything in this book feels like a sort of...

423
00:23:14.269 --> 00:23:17.769
affront or like anything that would be considered like disrespectful

424
00:23:17.809 --> 00:23:21.230
to the original text i think now somebody can obviously

425
00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:24.950
find something i'm sure and.

426
00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:26.839
They may the purists as you say but also i'm

427
00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:29.359
wondering ellen is there anything because he mentioned like you

428
00:23:29.380 --> 00:23:31.779
know the the fight to cut or keep something was

429
00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:35.099
there anything that you fought to keep that terence maybe

430
00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:36.619
thought we should be cutting.

431
00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:41.619
Oh chess the chess scene there's.

432
00:23:41.869 --> 00:23:45.990
There was a chess scene that was in its original version.

433
00:23:46.049 --> 00:23:49.079
I think it was 30 or 40 pages long. And

434
00:23:49.130 --> 00:23:52.119
we needed that to be shorter. And that was hard

435
00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:54.759
because he had worked on it so much.

436
00:23:55.119 --> 00:23:56.940
And I wanted to cut it at one point. I

437
00:23:56.940 --> 00:23:58.539
was like, just get rid of it. Like, I'm so

438
00:23:58.579 --> 00:23:59.960
tired of it. I don't want to do it anymore.

439
00:24:01.099 --> 00:24:04.000
But then we realized the scene was needed. It just

440
00:24:04.180 --> 00:24:05.380
needed to be trimmed down.

441
00:24:05.859 --> 00:24:09.700
And that was challenging for me because I don't know

442
00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:13.250
chess and Terrence had studied it and understood it. So

443
00:24:13.369 --> 00:24:16.049
I was really just dealing more with the characters. There's

444
00:24:16.089 --> 00:24:18.690
a dialogue that's going on and it's a real pivotal

445
00:24:18.730 --> 00:24:20.869
point in the book, even though it's a quiet moment

446
00:24:20.910 --> 00:24:24.390
in the book. It's usually a fast pace of action

447
00:24:24.450 --> 00:24:25.980
going on in the whole book. And this is a

448
00:24:26.019 --> 00:24:29.279
scene where people are just sitting still. And there's a dialogue,

449
00:24:29.299 --> 00:24:33.210
but it's very complicated. So I would work on the

450
00:24:33.250 --> 00:24:37.170
characters and the dialogue and the little movements. And he

451
00:24:37.509 --> 00:24:40.109
knew the chess, but we did.

452
00:24:40.329 --> 00:24:42.970
I didn't know the chess. So there was this website

453
00:24:42.990 --> 00:24:46.519
called like Next Best Chess Move or something. And so

454
00:24:46.539 --> 00:24:48.700
I would sit there and I would have to play

455
00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:51.180
with myself and then record what the moves were. And

456
00:24:51.220 --> 00:24:56.440
I needed to get to a stalemate. So I had, like,

457
00:24:56.539 --> 00:25:00.000
notepads of, okay, the rook goes here, then I go here,

458
00:25:00.099 --> 00:25:02.799
and then I would take that move and then build

459
00:25:02.839 --> 00:25:06.980
the dialogue and action around each player. So do we

460
00:25:07.019 --> 00:25:10.230
have a full chess scene in it? Somebody who knows

461
00:25:10.289 --> 00:25:12.569
chess will be like, I don't know, or maybe it's

462
00:25:12.609 --> 00:25:17.730
actually perfect. But the point was the emotional character-driven moment

463
00:25:17.789 --> 00:25:18.069
in that.

464
00:25:18.269 --> 00:25:18.410
Exactly.

465
00:25:18.470 --> 00:25:19.009
Exactly.

466
00:25:19.619 --> 00:25:22.579
And then as far as cutting my main major recollection,

467
00:25:23.619 --> 00:25:25.500
as far as our back and forth, because we went

468
00:25:25.539 --> 00:25:27.660
back and forth many, many times on this and we'd

469
00:25:27.680 --> 00:25:30.119
do sections and then sometimes we'd do the whole book.

470
00:25:31.539 --> 00:25:34.420
But there would be times when I would give him suggestions.

471
00:25:34.500 --> 00:25:37.769
I think it was particularly about the ending because that.

472
00:25:37.630 --> 00:25:38.609
Changed many times.

473
00:25:38.650 --> 00:25:40.950
There were many different versions of it, but I would

474
00:25:40.970 --> 00:25:43.170
think it was almost perfect. And I'd be like, well,

475
00:25:43.269 --> 00:25:45.910
just do this, this and this. And then the next

476
00:25:45.950 --> 00:25:48.029
time I see it, he's thrown it all out and

477
00:25:48.049 --> 00:25:53.410
done it all over again. Cause, cause that his imagination

478
00:25:53.490 --> 00:25:56.369
is so, so quick that he could imagine it a

479
00:25:56.390 --> 00:25:56.970
whole different way.

480
00:25:57.009 --> 00:25:59.640
Whereas I was like, no, just, just a little bit.

481
00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:03.440
So then we, we'd go with, with that.

482
00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:07.980
But, but I, I think my thing was always just

483
00:26:08.019 --> 00:26:10.809
to try to make sure the characters were being consistent

484
00:26:12.289 --> 00:26:16.069
and the And the structure and the, you know, as

485
00:26:16.250 --> 00:26:19.009
you said so kindly at the beginning that it's a

486
00:26:19.029 --> 00:26:21.990
page turner. That was me trying to, like, let's get

487
00:26:22.049 --> 00:26:24.369
the words cut down to the point where we're just

488
00:26:24.430 --> 00:26:28.890
flipping pages trying to find out what happens. So there

489
00:26:28.910 --> 00:26:32.700
was never any arguments between us, I wouldn't say.

490
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:33.019
I don't.

491
00:26:33.930 --> 00:26:36.009
I would never argue with someone smarter than me that

492
00:26:36.069 --> 00:26:38.069
it's absolutely not my approach to life.

493
00:26:39.329 --> 00:26:42.119
And I also didn't argue if you were like, if

494
00:26:42.170 --> 00:26:45.539
you felt something strongly, I, I wasn't going to tell

495
00:26:45.579 --> 00:26:47.759
you what the story was supposed to be. I was

496
00:26:47.799 --> 00:26:50.440
just trying to help you put it on the page

497
00:26:50.500 --> 00:26:53.119
in the way that will be friendly for the reader

498
00:26:53.240 --> 00:26:55.180
and compel compelling for the reader.

499
00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:56.140
Yeah.

500
00:26:56.859 --> 00:26:58.259
You guys are such a good team.

501
00:26:58.940 --> 00:26:59.119
Yeah.

502
00:27:00.349 --> 00:27:02.529
You just compliment each other really well. And it makes

503
00:27:02.630 --> 00:27:06.650
me want to revisit. How did you, how did you meet? Like,

504
00:27:06.690 --> 00:27:10.500
how did, how did that connection happen? Am I just forgetting?

505
00:27:10.660 --> 00:27:11.200
Did you tell me?

506
00:27:11.220 --> 00:27:14.420
Oh, no. So I had, I had reached out. I

507
00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:17.440
was looking for editors. And so I'd reached out to Ellen.

508
00:27:17.460 --> 00:27:19.779
So you picked her for a reason. What was your reason?

509
00:27:20.900 --> 00:27:23.599
Okay. So she had at this time, it was her

510
00:27:23.660 --> 00:27:28.630
old website. And, um, First of all, she did historical fiction,

511
00:27:28.710 --> 00:27:32.509
which is I live for historical fiction. I wanted a

512
00:27:32.549 --> 00:27:36.359
historical fiction writer because I wanted so much of the

513
00:27:36.380 --> 00:27:39.940
behavior of the women, the costume. I wanted everything to

514
00:27:40.019 --> 00:27:43.700
feel truthful to the time, not somebody who is going

515
00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:45.940
in and like, I'm going to reinvent everything and it's

516
00:27:46.009 --> 00:27:48.250
going to be a modern character. Like I was like, no,

517
00:27:48.269 --> 00:27:50.950
this has to be truthful. And so I loved that.

518
00:27:51.049 --> 00:27:53.730
And then also she had this, I can't remember the quote,

519
00:27:53.769 --> 00:27:55.910
but it was like her looking beautiful on the beach,

520
00:27:55.990 --> 00:27:57.609
her like hair blowing in the wind. I was like,

521
00:27:57.650 --> 00:28:00.059
she looks like such a nice person. And so I

522
00:28:00.099 --> 00:28:06.019
reached out to her. And then I asked her for

523
00:28:06.039 --> 00:28:08.680
a proposal for an editorial letter. And I got quite

524
00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:11.200
a few at the time. And she was hands down.

525
00:28:11.720 --> 00:28:17.220
At that time, I started reading her first book. Your

526
00:28:17.259 --> 00:28:17.740
first book?

527
00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:18.960
Keeping the House.

528
00:28:19.500 --> 00:28:23.400
Keeping the house. And about five pages, it's within the

529
00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:26.400
first seven pages, there was a carriage scene. And I

530
00:28:26.500 --> 00:28:30.259
love a carriage scene. And the way she described what

531
00:28:30.279 --> 00:28:33.200
was happening internally for the character as she was watching

532
00:28:33.220 --> 00:28:37.029
the environment, I was like, this is so cinematic and theatrical.

533
00:28:37.069 --> 00:28:40.329
This is exactly how I see sort of this world

534
00:28:40.759 --> 00:28:42.759
coming to life. And I do have a carriage scene

535
00:28:42.799 --> 00:28:44.660
that is, I thought about Ellen as I wrote the

536
00:28:44.680 --> 00:28:45.640
entire thing.

537
00:28:47.759 --> 00:28:51.049
I love that so much. I think it comes across

538
00:28:51.369 --> 00:28:54.170
in the writing. I actually have a very dear friend

539
00:28:54.269 --> 00:28:58.410
who's doing a writing workshop in a couple months called Show,

540
00:28:58.789 --> 00:29:01.829
Don't Tell, which I guess and know is like this

541
00:29:02.150 --> 00:29:06.019
reading and literary thing that I just kind of glossed

542
00:29:06.059 --> 00:29:09.890
over somehow in my psychology and communications studies. I've always

543
00:29:09.910 --> 00:29:12.319
been a reader. Don't get me wrong, but show don't

544
00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:14.759
tell is a thing. And it's very fresh on my

545
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:16.859
mind because I'm working with my friend and helping her

546
00:29:16.880 --> 00:29:19.359
a little bit to promote this workshop. And I started

547
00:29:19.400 --> 00:29:22.880
reading the book and I texted her within three pages

548
00:29:23.059 --> 00:29:26.700
and said, Kelly, this is, this book is show don't tell.

549
00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:31.529
You guys, you guys see the picture and you feel

550
00:29:31.589 --> 00:29:36.420
like you're there. Like I, and in, The historical fiction

551
00:29:36.460 --> 00:29:40.180
was the right choice because I think the the way

552
00:29:40.299 --> 00:29:43.920
that you're able to feel like you're in that era

553
00:29:44.460 --> 00:29:48.920
and it's more than just the, the word choices, but

554
00:29:48.980 --> 00:29:51.730
it's the order of the words. And it's the way

555
00:29:51.809 --> 00:29:54.650
that you feel the whole, I like, I want you,

556
00:29:54.930 --> 00:29:58.910
I felt like I was in the, the when the Scarlet,

557
00:29:58.930 --> 00:30:00.750
I'm going to mess up the story. I don't want

558
00:30:00.769 --> 00:30:02.809
to mess up the story, but there was a scene

559
00:30:02.849 --> 00:30:05.920
very close to the beginning where some, some heads were

560
00:30:05.960 --> 00:30:08.559
lost and I also don't want to spoil anything. So

561
00:30:08.599 --> 00:30:10.660
I'm just going to try not to spoil anything, but

562
00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:13.819
it was, I could, I felt like I was in

563
00:30:13.859 --> 00:30:16.660
the movie. Like I was like living in the movie

564
00:30:16.779 --> 00:30:19.400
and that is good writing like that. And I've, I've

565
00:30:19.569 --> 00:30:21.329
read a lot and it's been a bit since I've

566
00:30:21.349 --> 00:30:24.230
read some fiction. And I just wanted to say that

567
00:30:24.269 --> 00:30:28.039
like that choice to, to lean in, and really be

568
00:30:28.970 --> 00:30:32.220
conscious of and intentional about the words and the choices

569
00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:35.500
and the way that you bring these scenes to life

570
00:30:36.839 --> 00:30:39.440
is so, what's really cool for me is as a

571
00:30:39.539 --> 00:30:43.619
fan of Terrence and his skits on the internet. Um,

572
00:30:44.150 --> 00:30:47.670
if you don't know Terrence's skits on the internet, what

573
00:30:47.730 --> 00:30:51.390
rock are you living under? Cause I was, I mean, for, for,

574
00:30:51.430 --> 00:30:55.940
for real though, like I, I confession, um, I mentioned

575
00:30:55.960 --> 00:30:59.099
I live in Wisconsin. I'm a mama of two boys.

576
00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:00.589
Wait, which part of Wisconsin?

577
00:31:00.900 --> 00:31:01.960
Milwaukee area.

578
00:31:02.690 --> 00:31:02.990
Oh, okay.

579
00:31:03.069 --> 00:31:03.930
I was in La Crosse.

580
00:31:04.269 --> 00:31:06.150
So you were in a pretty, like that's actually a

581
00:31:06.349 --> 00:31:09.210
very pretty area. Although like in the wintertime and during COVID,

582
00:31:09.230 --> 00:31:11.349
it was super dark and depressing.

583
00:31:11.509 --> 00:31:12.250
It was.

584
00:31:12.250 --> 00:31:16.750
100%. I literally wrote down Wisconsin dark earlier in my notes.

585
00:31:16.930 --> 00:31:21.210
So yes, unfortunately, six months out of the year. But

586
00:31:21.490 --> 00:31:25.349
I'm a very basic mama. And I am a very

587
00:31:25.369 --> 00:31:27.609
gullible human that gets scammed a lot. So I was

588
00:31:27.650 --> 00:31:32.589
watching those videos thinking for sure, for sure, that our

589
00:31:32.630 --> 00:31:34.490
friend Terrence was sitting in his living room talking to

590
00:31:34.539 --> 00:31:35.119
Ryan Reynolds.

591
00:31:36.700 --> 00:31:37.720
Oh, yes.

592
00:31:38.380 --> 00:31:42.559
Yes. You got me, sir. You got me. And I

593
00:31:42.579 --> 00:31:46.140
was like, and I even, there's probably a legitimate paper

594
00:31:46.180 --> 00:31:48.980
trail of this, friends, because like back in the day,

595
00:31:49.119 --> 00:31:51.240
all those videos are still there. And back in the

596
00:31:51.259 --> 00:31:53.839
day I was commenting and I like for a while,

597
00:31:53.980 --> 00:31:56.720
if you look through the comments, it's very clear that

598
00:31:56.759 --> 00:31:59.960
your girl Ty thought that Terrence was sitting in his

599
00:31:59.980 --> 00:32:03.240
living room with Ryan Reynolds for real based on how

600
00:32:03.259 --> 00:32:05.720
I was commenting, which is crazy.

601
00:32:06.130 --> 00:32:07.269
But I love that.

602
00:32:07.569 --> 00:32:10.470
Me too. Because it was good. It was good entertainment

603
00:32:10.529 --> 00:32:12.529
at the time. And honestly, you know, it was just,

604
00:32:12.849 --> 00:32:16.579
you're very talented, like super talented. And, The way that

605
00:32:16.599 --> 00:32:18.579
you were able to bring those characters, the way that

606
00:32:18.619 --> 00:32:20.589
you are, because they're still a thing, but the way

607
00:32:20.609 --> 00:32:22.890
that you're able to bring those different characters to life

608
00:32:22.910 --> 00:32:27.730
with these hugely different personalities is incredible. But the reason

609
00:32:27.750 --> 00:32:30.259
I'm belaboring all this is that you do the same

610
00:32:30.299 --> 00:32:34.140
thing in the book. And I'm wondering which of the characters...

611
00:32:34.359 --> 00:32:36.180
I think I know the answers. But which of the

612
00:32:36.220 --> 00:32:41.400
characters are you most proud of? Like the development and

613
00:32:41.440 --> 00:32:44.819
the artistry and the cinematography of bringing those characters to life.

614
00:32:44.859 --> 00:32:48.160
Like which character, Terrence, we'll start with you, are you

615
00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:48.960
most proud of?

616
00:32:49.740 --> 00:32:59.230
That's such a great question. Okay, I love Langwadir. I

617
00:32:59.269 --> 00:33:04.470
think she is absolutely... deranged in the best way and

618
00:33:04.589 --> 00:33:08.779
she is she she became the version of of a

619
00:33:08.859 --> 00:33:10.660
villain that i had in my head for her and

620
00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:14.220
i'm really proud of it um i am i love

621
00:33:14.680 --> 00:33:17.859
uh malloy um without giving away sort of her arc

622
00:33:18.140 --> 00:33:23.880
i very complex um morally gray character with the heart

623
00:33:23.900 --> 00:33:26.680
of gold and i love those kind of characters who

624
00:33:27.910 --> 00:33:31.069
you watch their bad decisions and you know their intention,

625
00:33:31.109 --> 00:33:35.430
but they still keep getting in their own way. Yeah.

626
00:33:35.950 --> 00:33:38.349
I mean, it's mainly, it's really all the women because

627
00:33:38.410 --> 00:33:41.349
I just, it's mainly just women in this book that

628
00:33:41.369 --> 00:33:42.390
you're exposed to.

629
00:33:44.329 --> 00:33:44.609
Yeah.

630
00:33:44.670 --> 00:33:46.759
I would say Malloy and Languedier.

631
00:33:47.740 --> 00:33:48.180
How about you, Alan?

632
00:33:48.200 --> 00:33:49.380
I mean, Alice, of course.

633
00:33:49.460 --> 00:33:49.920
Of course.

634
00:33:49.940 --> 00:33:51.079
I feel like that's a cop out.

635
00:33:51.180 --> 00:33:53.019
And we do need to get to Alice. Like we

636
00:33:53.039 --> 00:33:56.460
really do. So that like bookmark that. But Alan, how

637
00:33:56.480 --> 00:33:56.819
about you?

638
00:33:56.839 --> 00:33:58.920
Yeah. Well, of course, Alice.

639
00:34:00.220 --> 00:34:04.029
And because she's she's the hero of the story, which

640
00:34:04.130 --> 00:34:09.510
I love. But Terrence also writes really, really good villains.

641
00:34:10.349 --> 00:34:14.010
And there's a witch, the witch Mambi in this book.

642
00:34:13.849 --> 00:34:16.010
As she appears. I love her.

643
00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:20.079
Like she does some of them. craziest things and you.

644
00:34:19.739 --> 00:34:22.510
Kind of root for her she's like she's just like

645
00:34:22.550 --> 00:34:25.329
a woman who's so over everyone and you just sort

646
00:34:25.349 --> 00:34:29.349
of root for her she's so authentically herself yeah.

647
00:34:29.150 --> 00:34:32.469
Yeah and i love um i i love the male

648
00:34:32.489 --> 00:34:36.289
characters actually um there's a couple there's blinkum the prince

649
00:34:37.250 --> 00:34:40.610
um there's um evaldo the king who's kind of a

650
00:34:40.679 --> 00:34:46.460
dastardly um horrible figure but i like him um And

651
00:34:46.500 --> 00:34:51.099
then actually at the end, Peter Pan makes a cameo

652
00:34:51.380 --> 00:34:54.829
and I can't wait to, I can't wait to meet

653
00:34:54.889 --> 00:34:57.730
him more because he, when he shows up on the page,

654
00:34:57.750 --> 00:35:01.239
I'm like, oh wow, this guy's pretty interesting. The way

655
00:35:01.300 --> 00:35:02.599
that Terrence has imagined him.

656
00:35:02.699 --> 00:35:03.039
So yeah.

657
00:35:03.940 --> 00:35:06.880
Yeah. I forgot that Peter's in this one because we,

658
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:09.320
it ended up being the epilogue, but so the first

659
00:35:09.630 --> 00:35:13.190
draft we wrote, I wrote basically halfway through the second book.

660
00:35:13.309 --> 00:35:16.889
So all of Peter and Wendy's backstory and it's, it's

661
00:35:16.949 --> 00:35:20.039
not what we expect it to be. And I really

662
00:35:20.079 --> 00:35:22.019
love him and what, what he'll become.

663
00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:23.139
Yeah.

664
00:35:23.300 --> 00:35:27.409
So, so I'm excited for that, but, um, Also the dragon.

665
00:35:27.650 --> 00:35:31.809
I have to add, I love the dragon in the book.

666
00:35:31.829 --> 00:35:33.550
She doesn't have any lines, but.

667
00:35:33.550 --> 00:35:35.360
She has not gotten to the dragon yet.

668
00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:36.420
Oh my gosh.

669
00:35:36.739 --> 00:35:41.679
I have so much to look forward to. I heard

670
00:35:41.780 --> 00:35:43.860
something in what both of you said, which was really cool.

671
00:35:44.019 --> 00:35:47.570
You both talked about people that are being authentically themselves.

672
00:35:48.309 --> 00:35:50.789
And is that not the whole point of all this

673
00:35:51.389 --> 00:35:55.710
is the idea of, you know, being told that you're something.

674
00:35:56.489 --> 00:36:00.489
but knowing, like just know, you just know, and you can't,

675
00:36:00.949 --> 00:36:02.530
a lot of times you can't put the words to it.

676
00:36:02.570 --> 00:36:04.710
And that's what I feel like Alice is grappling with

677
00:36:05.369 --> 00:36:09.349
in these first 20 chapters that I've been like reading

678
00:36:09.409 --> 00:36:14.369
and like literally whipping through because you can tell that

679
00:36:14.389 --> 00:36:17.409
she's like battling with this, like, well, who am I?

680
00:36:17.829 --> 00:36:18.010
Right.

681
00:36:18.030 --> 00:36:20.929
Like, and that's, that's the whole point. So talk to

682
00:36:20.989 --> 00:36:24.119
me about the mirror and like, and all of, all

683
00:36:24.139 --> 00:36:26.550
of the things, I mean, like I say, I don't

684
00:36:26.570 --> 00:36:29.719
want to be a spoiler. Tell me what you can.

685
00:36:29.780 --> 00:36:33.139
But talk to me about what the mirror and that

686
00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:35.019
imagery means to you.

687
00:36:35.880 --> 00:36:43.039
Yeah, actually, to be totally honest, I consciously was sort

688
00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:48.099
of adverse to going heavily with the mirror imagery because

689
00:36:48.460 --> 00:36:52.559
I believed, and we wrote that, I'm not sure what

690
00:36:52.820 --> 00:36:56.699
survived the edit, but she basically stopped looking at herself

691
00:36:56.820 --> 00:36:59.969
in a mirror. So it became this huge sense of

692
00:37:00.030 --> 00:37:05.469
trauma and this huge sense of, well, I've been, you know, effectively, like,

693
00:37:05.510 --> 00:37:07.409
I've been told that I'm not this or not to

694
00:37:07.469 --> 00:37:09.949
believe this. And, you know, I think it's very true,

695
00:37:10.269 --> 00:37:12.869
not only of Alice, but of women at that time,

696
00:37:12.909 --> 00:37:15.730
of women now. But, I mean, we were in a

697
00:37:15.909 --> 00:37:18.670
time period where they were fighting for the vote, that

698
00:37:18.769 --> 00:37:21.590
we were on the verge of war, that, you know,

699
00:37:21.800 --> 00:37:25.429
the way they behaved, they were discarded. If, you know,

700
00:37:27.210 --> 00:37:29.489
I mean, don't even get me started on laundries. I'm

701
00:37:29.510 --> 00:37:31.730
going to go into my like historical fiction world, but

702
00:37:31.769 --> 00:37:36.429
like the, the way society treated women, I think already

703
00:37:36.510 --> 00:37:41.050
created this dissonance for them. And then to her, she

704
00:37:41.090 --> 00:37:47.090
had such a grand sort of kind of, between who

705
00:37:47.130 --> 00:37:50.250
she was and who she was told that there is

706
00:37:50.340 --> 00:37:52.599
a moment where she finally does look in the mirror

707
00:37:52.639 --> 00:37:55.820
and you can see it's with her and Wendy and

708
00:37:55.860 --> 00:38:01.800
it's more she's watching Wendy's sort of disillusionment in her reflection.

709
00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:06.360
And that, I think Alice is more quickly sympathetic to

710
00:38:06.480 --> 00:38:10.070
other people's pain before she is to hers. And so

711
00:38:10.110 --> 00:38:13.250
it's when she's watching the injustice with Wendy and that's

712
00:38:13.309 --> 00:38:17.039
really where you see her becoming kind of behave as

713
00:38:17.300 --> 00:38:20.619
she truly is meant to be because the injustice is

714
00:38:20.659 --> 00:38:23.400
when she's like, nope, stop. We're not doing that. And

715
00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:27.840
so it's very much, I think, her starting to listen

716
00:38:27.880 --> 00:38:29.820
more to her voice than to anyone else's.

717
00:38:32.610 --> 00:38:36.650
Talk about emotions. So as a human being and as

718
00:38:36.710 --> 00:38:39.130
a woman in this world, I'm going to just be

719
00:38:39.170 --> 00:38:41.889
really honest and transparent and vulnerable with you two because

720
00:38:41.949 --> 00:38:43.130
I feel like we're besties now.

721
00:38:43.869 --> 00:38:44.110
We are.

722
00:38:44.130 --> 00:38:44.800
We are.

723
00:38:45.559 --> 00:38:51.639
Um, I, I had a problem with alcohol and, uh,

724
00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:53.980
it got me in real big trouble. I ended up

725
00:38:54.400 --> 00:38:57.059
very sick and the doctors told me at 35 years

726
00:38:57.139 --> 00:38:58.719
old that I would need a liver transplant.

727
00:38:58.739 --> 00:38:59.900
Oh my gosh.

728
00:39:00.519 --> 00:39:06.460
Fortunately, fortunately, God is good. And I am fully, almost completely,

729
00:39:06.579 --> 00:39:08.300
my liver is almost entirely healed now.

730
00:39:09.059 --> 00:39:10.000
Oh my God. Amazing.

731
00:39:10.219 --> 00:39:13.099
Doctors call it a miracle because it wasn't likely like

732
00:39:13.139 --> 00:39:16.210
they were pretty, it was grim. My eyes were yellow.

733
00:39:16.250 --> 00:39:18.190
I was in the hospital for a while. It was very,

734
00:39:18.269 --> 00:39:20.300
very bad. And this was kind of in the era

735
00:39:20.360 --> 00:39:25.179
where TikToks like yours, Terrence, were an escape and like

736
00:39:25.260 --> 00:39:29.929
a comic relief for real, for real. And I couldn't.

737
00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:34.889
not face myself. Like I could not look in the

738
00:39:34.929 --> 00:39:39.469
mirror and I did not see what everyone else was seeing.

739
00:39:39.849 --> 00:39:43.309
And I had people for years now, people were telling

740
00:39:43.369 --> 00:39:47.190
me that I was the secret sauce or that I

741
00:39:47.250 --> 00:39:50.320
was the main character or that I could do the

742
00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:53.860
scary thing that I for sure didn't think I was

743
00:39:53.920 --> 00:39:56.360
enough to do. And there were a lot, just like

744
00:39:56.400 --> 00:39:58.340
with Alice and just like with Wendy and just like

745
00:39:58.380 --> 00:40:01.440
with every, every heroine that we've ever loved, there were

746
00:40:01.460 --> 00:40:05.409
a lot of outside forces for bad kind of reinforcing this.

747
00:40:05.550 --> 00:40:08.750
I'm not enough. I can't do it. I'm not good enough.

748
00:40:08.889 --> 00:40:10.469
I need more reps, all that stuff.

749
00:40:10.909 --> 00:40:11.190
No, no.

750
00:40:12.559 --> 00:40:15.679
So here we are on this podcast, which I decided

751
00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:19.880
to do as a way to hopefully help empower and

752
00:40:20.219 --> 00:40:23.530
kind of inspire others to kind of become their own light.

753
00:40:24.250 --> 00:40:27.710
And for me, a lot of that started with looking

754
00:40:27.769 --> 00:40:31.070
in the mirror. Like I legitimately avoid because and I'm,

755
00:40:31.110 --> 00:40:33.730
you know, because on this journey, I'm down 80 pounds.

756
00:40:33.869 --> 00:40:36.289
I've lost about 20 inches off of my waist. And

757
00:40:36.449 --> 00:40:37.610
like I say, the doctors say.

758
00:40:37.639 --> 00:40:38.599
I'm so happy for you.

759
00:40:39.280 --> 00:40:41.659
Thank you, truly. And I'm trying to hold it together,

760
00:40:41.679 --> 00:40:46.300
but I'm not doing, I'm close. But I am so

761
00:40:46.860 --> 00:40:51.369
grateful for a reminder in a book like this that

762
00:40:51.610 --> 00:40:54.889
you are worthy and you need to look in the mirror.

763
00:40:55.010 --> 00:40:57.130
And sometimes it does take a friend. Here we are

764
00:40:57.150 --> 00:40:59.409
on the little brick road again. Sometimes it takes a

765
00:40:59.429 --> 00:41:04.599
friend to remind you, to force you to get defensive

766
00:41:04.639 --> 00:41:08.079
on that friend's account, but The point is, you guys

767
00:41:08.139 --> 00:41:10.400
are my friend in this situation because you guys are

768
00:41:10.420 --> 00:41:12.519
the ones that are like, you know, coming on the

769
00:41:12.559 --> 00:41:14.750
show is like a leap of faith. And I appreciate

770
00:41:14.769 --> 00:41:16.869
your time and your energy and sharing all the things

771
00:41:16.929 --> 00:41:19.489
and having this be a safe space. But I was

772
00:41:19.530 --> 00:41:21.150
the girl in the mirror that couldn't look at herself.

773
00:41:22.110 --> 00:41:27.710
And content, creative energy, all of the goodness that you

774
00:41:27.730 --> 00:41:30.980
guys pour into the world does make a difference for

775
00:41:31.019 --> 00:41:36.300
people like me. So I'm grateful because I do 100%

776
00:41:36.300 --> 00:41:39.230
without knowing as much as I want to know about

777
00:41:39.269 --> 00:41:42.309
all this multiverse, without knowing all the characters intimately like

778
00:41:42.329 --> 00:41:45.170
you guys do, I can feel that I was meant

779
00:41:45.230 --> 00:41:47.929
to get this book in my life right now. And

780
00:41:47.989 --> 00:41:53.719
that is incredible because your spark that you are imposter

781
00:41:53.739 --> 00:41:59.730
syndrome-ing yourself about, Terrence, is... powerful. And you needed to

782
00:41:59.789 --> 00:42:04.110
hear this from a human being that your spark matters.

783
00:42:04.710 --> 00:42:09.159
Your story matters. This story will have an, a similar

784
00:42:09.239 --> 00:42:12.340
impact on not just me, obviously. And you need to

785
00:42:12.380 --> 00:42:14.340
know that like, I have big hopes, big dreams, big

786
00:42:14.360 --> 00:42:18.440
things happening, and that's going to be contagious. And it

787
00:42:18.500 --> 00:42:21.739
has a lot to do with creative creativity, creativity, and

788
00:42:21.780 --> 00:42:25.320
creative energy that you have chosen to put into the world.

789
00:42:26.969 --> 00:42:32.210
So on behalf of like Alice's everywhere, thank you. And truly,

790
00:42:32.230 --> 00:42:34.510
I mean that because, you know, and I didn't mean to,

791
00:42:34.809 --> 00:42:36.469
I did not mean to talk so much about me.

792
00:42:36.510 --> 00:42:40.119
But when you said she stopped looking in the mirror, yes.

793
00:42:40.860 --> 00:42:44.699
And women do that. Like I literally did. I literally

794
00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:47.400
live in a fairly small house. I literally avoided the mirror.

795
00:42:47.739 --> 00:42:51.750
It's why y'all between us, because nobody's, you know, it's

796
00:42:51.769 --> 00:42:52.269
just us here.

797
00:42:52.289 --> 00:42:52.989
I love.

798
00:42:54.260 --> 00:42:56.480
Started posting pictures of myself on the internet in the

799
00:42:56.500 --> 00:43:01.019
mirror on purpose. It's like exposure therapy. Talk about yourself

800
00:43:01.519 --> 00:43:04.139
instead of not looking in the mirror. I'm literally, that's the,

801
00:43:04.179 --> 00:43:06.440
there's a, there's a whole, there's hundreds of photos of

802
00:43:06.480 --> 00:43:10.280
me now in the mirror selfie and it's intentional and

803
00:43:11.000 --> 00:43:14.280
on purpose and reflective and all of it. So thank you.

804
00:43:14.920 --> 00:43:17.800
And I like, I'm, I'm off on this tangent because it's,

805
00:43:17.960 --> 00:43:19.820
I think it's important. I think that people need to

806
00:43:19.880 --> 00:43:25.099
lean in and find and listen to the underlying message,

807
00:43:25.300 --> 00:43:26.940
which is that like, you need to listen to your

808
00:43:26.980 --> 00:43:29.489
heart and you need to follow your heart. And sometimes

809
00:43:29.530 --> 00:43:31.250
that doesn't make sense to other people, but you got

810
00:43:31.269 --> 00:43:32.010
to keep going anyway.

811
00:43:32.969 --> 00:43:37.369
So, yeah, that was, thank you for sharing that. And, and, um,

812
00:43:38.130 --> 00:43:41.849
that feedback is invaluable to me. You have no idea

813
00:43:41.869 --> 00:43:44.880
that really, um, You know, when I think about what

814
00:43:44.900 --> 00:43:47.119
we set out to sort of achieve, and I say we,

815
00:43:47.179 --> 00:43:51.000
because again, without Ellen, there is no us. Like what

816
00:43:51.019 --> 00:43:53.280
you just said is really sort of the pinnacle of

817
00:43:53.320 --> 00:43:55.719
what I could hope someone would take from it. So

818
00:43:55.760 --> 00:43:56.260
it's huge.

819
00:43:57.650 --> 00:44:00.050
Well, thank you. And I'm wondering, because you said you're

820
00:44:00.070 --> 00:44:01.909
a dad. Ellen, are you a mama?

821
00:44:01.929 --> 00:44:03.250
No.

822
00:44:04.150 --> 00:44:05.030
That's okay, too.

823
00:44:05.190 --> 00:44:06.050
That's okay. Yes.

824
00:44:06.610 --> 00:44:08.849
I'm guessing she has. Do you have pets?

825
00:44:09.989 --> 00:44:10.309
I do.

826
00:44:10.610 --> 00:44:14.309
Because you seem like a very... nurturing, nurturing human that

827
00:44:14.329 --> 00:44:16.070
needs to have something to love like that. So your

828
00:44:16.090 --> 00:44:20.449
cat is very, very lucky. Parents, you have, you have kids. What,

829
00:44:21.309 --> 00:44:23.280
what is your message for them in all this? Like,

830
00:44:23.320 --> 00:44:26.050
what do you want them to garner? What have they

831
00:44:26.090 --> 00:44:28.239
taught you that you want to share?

832
00:44:29.019 --> 00:44:31.719
Well, it's very interesting. So Ellen sort of watched the

833
00:44:31.760 --> 00:44:38.789
evolution of this. Um, while I was writing, um, Oz, uh,

834
00:44:39.570 --> 00:44:42.289
there were communication delays with my, my twins and they were,

835
00:44:42.510 --> 00:44:46.659
they were born early. Um, and during that they were

836
00:44:46.679 --> 00:44:52.760
diagnosed with autism and they, the world is very different

837
00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:57.619
to them and the world, um, as they experience it

838
00:44:57.679 --> 00:45:01.829
is very different. And, you know, I, There's no way

839
00:45:01.889 --> 00:45:04.389
for me not to think about how people perceive the

840
00:45:04.449 --> 00:45:06.670
world and how things affect you, how they affect your

841
00:45:06.710 --> 00:45:10.650
nervous system. And so I think that it really informed

842
00:45:10.989 --> 00:45:15.929
so much of sort of every character's, the cause and

843
00:45:15.969 --> 00:45:20.469
effect of how other people behave and what safety looks

844
00:45:20.530 --> 00:45:24.389
like and where we find safety, not only in ourselves,

845
00:45:24.469 --> 00:45:30.849
but with other people. So I think that their own unique, creatures.

846
00:45:30.909 --> 00:45:32.949
And I think that there's no way that I, that

847
00:45:32.989 --> 00:45:34.369
changed my perspective on the world.

848
00:45:35.670 --> 00:45:41.139
I love that. And have they, I was just wondering

849
00:45:41.199 --> 00:45:45.380
if they, if that perspective, if their perspective, like contributed

850
00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:46.980
to your writing at all, like if they're.

851
00:45:48.460 --> 00:45:52.300
Oh, 1000%. So, um, winter, winter tide was, I mean,

852
00:45:52.360 --> 00:45:55.079
I was sort of watching the world in, in a

853
00:45:55.119 --> 00:45:58.340
cave with them. And so it was, You know, so

854
00:45:58.380 --> 00:46:00.239
much of writing that. And I, you know, I think

855
00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:02.960
not realizing too, I carry a lot of grief. My

856
00:46:02.980 --> 00:46:05.800
mother died when I was, you know, 19. And so

857
00:46:06.639 --> 00:46:09.820
the fairy tales and these sort of stories from, you know,

858
00:46:10.519 --> 00:46:13.619
as a new parent, you know, there was so much

859
00:46:13.679 --> 00:46:16.880
nostalgia and I think grief that I was processing in

860
00:46:17.280 --> 00:46:21.260
the creation of these. And you'll see that mothers are very,

861
00:46:21.429 --> 00:46:23.610
very important to all of my stories, right?

862
00:46:26.570 --> 00:46:31.869
My dad died when I was 23. So grief is very,

863
00:46:32.050 --> 00:46:36.070
a very real thing. And working, that's why I have

864
00:46:36.110 --> 00:46:38.780
such respect for people that can turn their grief into

865
00:46:38.800 --> 00:46:41.239
something good. And like you, that's what you're doing with

866
00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:44.619
your work. And that's really, really neat because we all

867
00:46:44.659 --> 00:46:46.619
have that. We all have a version of that, right?

868
00:46:46.659 --> 00:46:48.550
Like we all, and when you said that my heart

869
00:46:48.590 --> 00:46:51.710
dropped because that is a, we were, you and I

870
00:46:51.730 --> 00:46:53.989
were about the same age when we lost a parent

871
00:46:54.250 --> 00:46:57.280
and you know, that, changes the trajectory of your life

872
00:46:57.380 --> 00:47:00.739
in ways that you don't understand until much, much later. So, um,

873
00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:03.550
you know, just, just knowing that and hearing that from you, it's,

874
00:47:03.760 --> 00:47:06.849
it's powerful. Like it's very, um, I don't know, it,

875
00:47:07.429 --> 00:47:10.619
it changes things and mostly for good if we let it.

876
00:47:10.949 --> 00:47:13.550
And that, that's, that's the whole point I think is like,

877
00:47:13.610 --> 00:47:18.190
you know, this is what you make it. And I'm wondering, like,

878
00:47:19.369 --> 00:47:22.769
as you guys were putting this all together, did you

879
00:47:22.849 --> 00:47:27.360
have a rule? Because I could see, the the brainstorming

880
00:47:27.559 --> 00:47:30.909
just go crazy did you have a rule for like

881
00:47:31.159 --> 00:47:35.230
what you could reinvent versus what was like sick like

882
00:47:35.289 --> 00:47:41.449
stayed sacred no no rules here we're.

883
00:47:41.289 --> 00:47:48.179
Good no um i i was pretty well the way

884
00:47:48.400 --> 00:47:51.280
i sort of had to map everything so i um,

885
00:47:51.699 --> 00:47:52.800
just walk us through that.

886
00:47:52.840 --> 00:47:56.170
Cause I picture you like the guy from always sunny

887
00:47:56.210 --> 00:47:59.849
in Philadelphia with like the strings and like the, the,

888
00:48:00.250 --> 00:48:02.110
the board and like this and this and this and this.

889
00:48:02.130 --> 00:48:02.429
Yes.

890
00:48:02.710 --> 00:48:03.039
Tell us.

891
00:48:03.150 --> 00:48:05.250
It was a little, it was a little like that.

892
00:48:05.329 --> 00:48:08.309
So I didn't go into it originally being like, Oh,

893
00:48:08.349 --> 00:48:10.389
I'm going to, everything's going to tie together like this.

894
00:48:10.579 --> 00:48:13.679
I knew the Alice journey. And then, so what I

895
00:48:14.059 --> 00:48:16.900
knew was I wanted the wonderland dreams to sort of

896
00:48:17.840 --> 00:48:22.079
everything will be referenced in Oz. And so I would

897
00:48:22.119 --> 00:48:24.199
take the scene and I would say, okay, I need

898
00:48:24.219 --> 00:48:28.519
to find a queen. Then I would go into the

899
00:48:28.679 --> 00:48:31.190
Oz books and I would, you know, all right, this

900
00:48:31.269 --> 00:48:34.309
is the right queen to fill this role. And so

901
00:48:34.969 --> 00:48:39.010
everything is given justice without having to be reinvented in

902
00:48:39.829 --> 00:48:42.750
a way. Alice is really, in this book, well, Alice

903
00:48:42.769 --> 00:48:45.159
and Wendy, is really the only one sort of out

904
00:48:45.199 --> 00:48:49.340
of place in Oz's universe. And then as we move

905
00:48:49.380 --> 00:48:53.980
into book two, we'll definitely get a little further from

906
00:48:54.880 --> 00:49:00.360
Oz Origins. But I think it's pretty close to, at

907
00:49:00.400 --> 00:49:04.380
least referentially, it's close to the original stories. Not too

908
00:49:04.420 --> 00:49:05.219
much reinvention.

909
00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:09.579
Ellen, are you a fan of these stories too? Or

910
00:49:09.639 --> 00:49:10.579
were you before this?

911
00:49:12.780 --> 00:49:14.090
So my.

912
00:49:14.760 --> 00:49:20.380
theory was that I didn't want to corrupt my own

913
00:49:20.900 --> 00:49:24.619
view of Terrence's story by going in and studying the

914
00:49:24.699 --> 00:49:28.619
original stories. So my knowledge of the original stories is

915
00:49:28.719 --> 00:49:33.309
actually woefully thin. I certainly know I've seen the movies,

916
00:49:33.590 --> 00:49:38.829
but no, I haven't read these original books, which I will,

917
00:49:38.849 --> 00:49:41.739
I think now And but I really did that on

918
00:49:41.820 --> 00:49:45.980
purpose because because I didn't want to always be wondering

919
00:49:46.280 --> 00:49:48.780
because knowing my own brain where I want everything to

920
00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:52.719
be accurate, I would have gotten too caught up in.

921
00:49:53.000 --> 00:49:56.940
Well, she did that in in Baum's book. And how

922
00:49:57.019 --> 00:49:58.059
is she doing that here?

923
00:49:58.559 --> 00:50:01.719
I just wanted it to be Terrence's vision and Terrence's

924
00:50:01.760 --> 00:50:05.460
imagination that I was helping to just translate to the page.

925
00:50:05.699 --> 00:50:07.980
So that was how I approached it.

926
00:50:08.900 --> 00:50:11.800
You also had said, you were like, I remember you

927
00:50:11.840 --> 00:50:13.880
saying to me, because I was sending you stuff about

928
00:50:13.900 --> 00:50:17.159
Languidere and you were like, that's great. But I want

929
00:50:17.179 --> 00:50:20.179
to make sure that anyone can read this without having

930
00:50:20.340 --> 00:50:23.530
to be a historian on these stories. And I was like, oh,

931
00:50:23.670 --> 00:50:25.869
that's a great, it's a great approach. I love that.

932
00:50:27.030 --> 00:50:29.309
Yeah, because it needs to stand on its own as

933
00:50:29.369 --> 00:50:33.469
its own sort of myth and its own, its own legend. Yeah.

934
00:50:33.750 --> 00:50:36.849
Like you don't have to read Alice or any of

935
00:50:36.889 --> 00:50:39.969
the Oz books to come into this and understand contextually

936
00:50:39.989 --> 00:50:41.590
what's going on, I think, right?

937
00:50:42.090 --> 00:50:45.840
I would agree because I actually, I have collected all

938
00:50:45.880 --> 00:50:47.800
these books, but I don't, like I have different, I

939
00:50:47.840 --> 00:50:51.800
actually have very, several copies of Alice in Wonderland, several.

940
00:50:52.420 --> 00:50:56.219
And it's because I've always identified with her story and,

941
00:50:56.579 --> 00:50:59.860
you know, it's fascinating to me. that I also have very,

942
00:51:00.300 --> 00:51:03.539
very fairly recently gotten into like the wicked world and,

943
00:51:03.840 --> 00:51:06.519
you know, Wizard of Oz and all that too. but

944
00:51:06.539 --> 00:51:10.179
I'm not as familiar as I know a lot of big,

945
00:51:10.239 --> 00:51:13.239
big fans are. So it was really cool getting into

946
00:51:13.280 --> 00:51:16.099
the book and feeling, I didn't, I would confirm as

947
00:51:16.139 --> 00:51:20.320
a reader that that was, you know, achieved because I

948
00:51:20.360 --> 00:51:23.239
didn't feel like I was missing any parts, but I also,

949
00:51:23.300 --> 00:51:26.380
there was enough illusion to the parts that I felt

950
00:51:26.400 --> 00:51:29.400
like the story was, was good. So I, I really,

951
00:51:29.420 --> 00:51:31.800
I think you guys nailed that in terms of like

952
00:51:31.840 --> 00:51:35.159
how to kind of bring, bring in those worlds without

953
00:51:35.219 --> 00:51:37.599
making it too much about like what we've missed. Like

954
00:51:38.019 --> 00:51:40.159
I didn't, like, I was like, okay, now what do like,

955
00:51:40.199 --> 00:51:42.820
I got to go back. No, but I also do now,

956
00:51:43.099 --> 00:51:46.360
which is really cool. And also a very, um, you know,

957
00:51:46.389 --> 00:51:48.789
we talk about the spark and how it catches in others.

958
00:51:48.889 --> 00:51:51.730
It's actually really cool to me that this could, and should,

959
00:51:51.789 --> 00:51:55.190
in my opinion, potentially really inspire people to go and

960
00:51:55.230 --> 00:51:57.090
read the original books again and find.

961
00:51:57.130 --> 00:52:00.809
Out yes i mean for me because yes please for

962
00:52:00.869 --> 00:52:05.010
me that it's so there's um oh my god it's

963
00:52:05.030 --> 00:52:07.250
such a long thing but like there's this belief and

964
00:52:07.289 --> 00:52:09.699
i believe bomb had written about it um there's a

965
00:52:10.179 --> 00:52:13.480
great tiktoktor uh tori she's the oz vlog who talks

966
00:52:13.519 --> 00:52:16.320
about this but there at one point it was like

967
00:52:17.019 --> 00:52:19.119
he was saying that he that glinda came to him

968
00:52:19.179 --> 00:52:21.139
and brought him the stories and like so that all

969
00:52:21.159 --> 00:52:24.550
of these stories exist for everyone and the storyteller is

970
00:52:24.610 --> 00:52:28.860
just sort of the vessel And so the idea, which

971
00:52:28.920 --> 00:52:30.719
I love, and I love that the world has sort

972
00:52:30.760 --> 00:52:34.199
of accepted iterations and new retellings, but that it does,

973
00:52:34.619 --> 00:52:38.139
it does pay respect and bring eyes back to the

974
00:52:38.179 --> 00:52:42.199
original texts. And, um, I mean, they're really, it's, it's

975
00:52:42.320 --> 00:52:44.550
profound if you look at sort of those authors and

976
00:52:44.590 --> 00:52:47.949
what they were writing at the time, very much Baum. Um, they're,

977
00:52:48.050 --> 00:52:51.369
they really hold up. They're really, they're very feminist, which

978
00:52:51.449 --> 00:52:57.380
I love. They're very, his books are so feminist. Um, And, um, yeah,

979
00:52:57.420 --> 00:52:58.860
I love that. I love that you would go back

980
00:52:58.920 --> 00:53:00.079
and read any of those works.

981
00:53:01.019 --> 00:53:04.260
Well, we talked about it privately and I want to

982
00:53:04.280 --> 00:53:07.099
share it with the world because it's really cool. I

983
00:53:07.400 --> 00:53:10.619
have this little book that has the words on it

984
00:53:10.760 --> 00:53:14.579
that are from Glinda, which is that the, um, I

985
00:53:14.739 --> 00:53:16.539
don't want to mess up the quote, but it's, it's

986
00:53:16.619 --> 00:53:18.480
that like, you've always had the power, my dear, you

987
00:53:18.519 --> 00:53:21.500
just had to see it for yourself. And you and

988
00:53:21.519 --> 00:53:24.170
I talked about, you're like, well, you just wait. Um,

989
00:53:24.250 --> 00:53:28.269
and without, without spoiling anything, can you talk more to that?

990
00:53:28.369 --> 00:53:31.550
Because that quote is kind of like a thread in,

991
00:53:31.730 --> 00:53:35.340
in all stories. So again, don't, don't say anything you shouldn't,

992
00:53:35.440 --> 00:53:37.719
but tell me, tell me what you can.

993
00:53:38.420 --> 00:53:43.219
That quote will come back. Um, and you will carry

994
00:53:43.360 --> 00:53:46.960
with it all of this context. And when Glinda says it, I,

995
00:53:46.969 --> 00:53:50.829
I can't, it's such a huge reveal, but it, um,

996
00:53:52.090 --> 00:53:55.929
We are marching towards that. That quote is going to

997
00:53:55.969 --> 00:53:59.659
carry so much weight when it is said and when

998
00:53:59.699 --> 00:54:02.079
she says it that I'm excited for you to get there.

999
00:54:02.940 --> 00:54:06.869
Me too. So this whole conversation has been so fun,

1000
00:54:06.909 --> 00:54:09.250
and I'm very grateful and conscious of your time. But

1001
00:54:09.309 --> 00:54:11.449
I do want to wrap with a couple questions that

1002
00:54:11.489 --> 00:54:14.219
are more like what I normally talk about, because usually

1003
00:54:14.739 --> 00:54:17.900
there's an arc that I have just abandoned for the

1004
00:54:17.920 --> 00:54:23.349
sake of Oz and for the sake of Alex, Alice. Um,

1005
00:54:23.550 --> 00:54:25.570
but I, I want to bring one or two of

1006
00:54:25.610 --> 00:54:28.110
the questions in, which is that, and I, and I,

1007
00:54:28.230 --> 00:54:30.469
I think I know some of these answers already based

1008
00:54:30.530 --> 00:54:32.750
on this conversation, but take it where you will. There's

1009
00:54:32.769 --> 00:54:34.570
a couple that I'll, I'll try to watch our time

1010
00:54:34.690 --> 00:54:37.199
and I want you both to answer, please. The first

1011
00:54:37.320 --> 00:54:39.960
one is, uh, what would you tell 22 year old

1012
00:54:40.039 --> 00:54:41.559
you if you could?

1013
00:54:44.599 --> 00:54:46.780
Ellen, you want to take that one?

1014
00:54:47.719 --> 00:54:53.150
That, that's a hard one. Um, I would tell her

1015
00:54:53.170 --> 00:55:06.369
that life is going to be interesting and just the

1016
00:55:06.409 --> 00:55:07.329
way you want it to be.

1017
00:55:07.349 --> 00:55:11.269
And even the challenges that you have will be of

1018
00:55:11.309 --> 00:55:18.550
your own design and that it's all moving toward something.

1019
00:55:18.650 --> 00:55:19.780
So just hang on.

1020
00:55:20.860 --> 00:55:25.760
Buckle up. I hear you say buckle up. Terrence, how

1021
00:55:25.820 --> 00:55:26.260
about you?

1022
00:55:28.539 --> 00:55:35.989
I would say you are not one thing. And you

1023
00:55:36.010 --> 00:55:42.750
can do impossible things. And don't let anything stand in

1024
00:55:42.769 --> 00:55:46.269
the way of those choices. Especially not yourself.

1025
00:55:48.150 --> 00:55:51.269
Amen. Get out of your own way. And one of

1026
00:55:51.309 --> 00:55:53.010
my mantras that I say a lot on the show

1027
00:55:53.150 --> 00:55:55.849
is impossible is just a big word thrown around by

1028
00:55:55.929 --> 00:56:00.550
small people. So you are speaking my language. You are

1029
00:56:00.590 --> 00:56:03.449
speaking my language. And the other message that I really

1030
00:56:03.489 --> 00:56:06.130
want to hear from both of you is if you

1031
00:56:06.190 --> 00:56:08.889
had a megaphone and most of the world had to

1032
00:56:08.929 --> 00:56:12.800
listen to you for 30 to 60 seconds, what would

1033
00:56:12.820 --> 00:56:13.539
your message be?

1034
00:56:22.090 --> 00:56:24.269
Oh, I don't know if 30 to 60 seconds is

1035
00:56:24.349 --> 00:56:24.829
long enough.

1036
00:56:25.570 --> 00:56:29.170
It's not. So talk longer if you need to. I'm

1037
00:56:29.230 --> 00:56:31.780
on your guys' watch. I have all the time we need.

1038
00:56:32.199 --> 00:56:35.880
I really just, and I'm experiencing it a lot right

1039
00:56:35.900 --> 00:56:38.840
now because I'm feeling vulnerable, but it's like, when did

1040
00:56:38.900 --> 00:56:45.030
we stop being kind to one another? And just asking

1041
00:56:45.110 --> 00:56:49.219
people to look for the good. like look for the

1042
00:56:49.260 --> 00:56:52.300
good in others and look for the good in yourself.

1043
00:56:52.400 --> 00:56:57.760
Like every interaction you have has energy and movement to it.

1044
00:56:57.980 --> 00:57:01.300
And the way you treat people, I believe not only

1045
00:57:01.360 --> 00:57:05.820
comes back to you, but does change people's lives. And

1046
00:57:05.889 --> 00:57:08.010
so I think look for the good is what I

1047
00:57:08.050 --> 00:57:11.429
would shout or get off the fucking internet.

1048
00:57:13.050 --> 00:57:13.989
Go touch some grass.

1049
00:57:14.550 --> 00:57:14.789
Yeah.

1050
00:57:15.789 --> 00:57:16.489
Ellen, how about you?

1051
00:57:24.030 --> 00:57:26.460
This is hard for me because as a novelist I

1052
00:57:26.539 --> 00:57:30.239
usually like to think my thoughts privately for about five

1053
00:57:30.300 --> 00:57:31.739
years before I share.

1054
00:57:31.539 --> 00:57:37.960
Them five years sounds about right you can think more

1055
00:57:38.019 --> 00:57:40.159
because you know what I'll let you think if my

1056
00:57:40.179 --> 00:57:42.230
talking doesn't ruin it I'll let you think and I

1057
00:57:42.269 --> 00:57:45.150
will say that you know what came to mind for

1058
00:57:45.170 --> 00:57:48.719
me when you were talking Terrence was a song called

1059
00:57:48.739 --> 00:57:53.159
uh for good because i knew you i have been

1060
00:57:53.199 --> 00:57:56.420
changed for good and that right there is why we're

1061
00:57:56.460 --> 00:57:59.679
here right like that right there is why we're having

1062
00:57:59.719 --> 00:58:02.510
this conversation because it's true for me because i knew

1063
00:58:02.550 --> 00:58:04.349
you i have been changed for good but i also

1064
00:58:04.389 --> 00:58:06.969
feel like because anybody who reads this book knew you

1065
00:58:07.050 --> 00:58:10.730
they they will be changed for good so ellen.

1066
00:58:12.110 --> 00:58:15.559
It's awesome i'm gonna i'm gonna I'm going to steal

1067
00:58:15.679 --> 00:58:17.559
something that Terrence always says to me.

1068
00:58:18.940 --> 00:58:19.780
And I would say it.

1069
00:58:19.860 --> 00:58:22.639
Over and over again into my megaphone for as long

1070
00:58:22.719 --> 00:58:24.349
as they let me.

1071
00:58:25.110 --> 00:58:27.510
He always says, thank you for your magic.

1072
00:58:28.409 --> 00:58:34.809
And sometimes that's hard to hear for anyone, or maybe

1073
00:58:34.829 --> 00:58:36.190
you don't fully.

1074
00:58:35.949 --> 00:58:37.550
Take it in.

1075
00:58:37.809 --> 00:58:41.039
And I think if more of us understood our own magic,

1076
00:58:41.699 --> 00:58:43.460
And it's kind of what you were talking about with

1077
00:58:43.500 --> 00:58:46.199
the spark and how it can spread good in the

1078
00:58:46.239 --> 00:58:51.030
world that, you know, so I would just say to everyone,

1079
00:58:51.090 --> 00:58:52.170
thank you for your magic.

1080
00:58:52.269 --> 00:58:57.170
Thank you for your magic. And let's make more of it.

1081
00:58:57.510 --> 00:59:01.349
Let's stop being, again, what Terrence said, but, you know,

1082
00:59:01.469 --> 00:59:04.630
let's stop being so caught up in our um, in

1083
00:59:04.710 --> 00:59:10.699
our pain and our hatred and look for our talents

1084
00:59:10.900 --> 00:59:13.599
and what we can create. I think we've talked a

1085
00:59:13.619 --> 00:59:17.280
lot about grief and we've talked a lot about the sadness,

1086
00:59:17.360 --> 00:59:20.300
but that's where creation comes from. That's where this book

1087
00:59:20.340 --> 00:59:24.739
came from. That's where everything good actually comes from is,

1088
00:59:25.139 --> 00:59:29.099
is the, the pain that we're all working through as humans. Um,

1089
00:59:29.690 --> 00:59:33.550
And I think Alice, if I can just say, she

1090
00:59:33.690 --> 00:59:37.489
is such a great model for us in how she

1091
00:59:38.090 --> 00:59:42.269
deals with her pain and comes out. And I'm not

1092
00:59:42.289 --> 00:59:46.409
going to give the ending away, but she's a great hero.

1093
00:59:46.730 --> 00:59:48.409
So that's what I would say.

1094
00:59:50.530 --> 00:59:55.159
I got full body chills because... I did too. I'm

1095
00:59:55.179 --> 00:59:58.480
glad I'm not alone. We're not alone. None of us

1096
00:59:58.559 --> 01:00:01.900
are as alone as we think we are. And it's absolutely,

1097
01:00:02.699 --> 01:00:10.150
dare I say, unreal because I actually have, I got

1098
01:00:10.210 --> 01:00:13.829
really clear on my values this year. Like 2026 is

1099
01:00:13.869 --> 01:00:16.050
the year that I'm very, for the very first time

1100
01:00:16.090 --> 01:00:18.079
as a 41 year old grownup woman, I am very

1101
01:00:18.139 --> 01:00:23.570
clear on my values and the acronym is MAGIC. It's

1102
01:00:23.590 --> 01:00:25.400
an acronym, and I'm not going to walk us through it,

1103
01:00:25.429 --> 01:00:29.170
but it's real and has everything to do with owning

1104
01:00:30.070 --> 01:00:35.900
your magic and embracing your magic and understanding that your

1105
01:00:35.940 --> 01:00:40.199
magic does indeed have value that can spark the magic

1106
01:00:40.260 --> 01:00:43.219
in others. So the fact that, Ellen, you said what

1107
01:00:43.239 --> 01:00:46.280
you said, and the fact that we're even here today

1108
01:00:46.320 --> 01:00:51.619
having this conversation, to me, is the embodiment of everything

1109
01:00:51.659 --> 01:00:53.510
that all three of us have been saying. which is

1110
01:00:53.550 --> 01:00:56.050
that we own our magic. We look in the mirror

1111
01:00:56.469 --> 01:00:58.389
and we own our magic and it can change the

1112
01:00:58.429 --> 01:01:01.789
world in our little way. But the little ways aren't

1113
01:01:01.829 --> 01:01:04.429
little when you look at the amplification that happens when

1114
01:01:04.469 --> 01:01:07.989
the sparks fly, literally, because that's what's happening in this conversation.

1115
01:01:08.010 --> 01:01:10.820
That's what's happening in this book, with this book, through

1116
01:01:10.860 --> 01:01:15.000
this book. And I'm so freaking grateful. I almost cussed.

1117
01:01:15.059 --> 01:01:16.739
I don't cuss on my podcast if I can help it.

1118
01:01:17.079 --> 01:01:17.659
I almost did.

1119
01:01:17.679 --> 01:01:19.280
Sorry, I did. You might have to bleep me.

1120
01:01:19.739 --> 01:01:21.639
There's no bleeping you, Terrence. I'm not, I'm not, I'm

1121
01:01:21.679 --> 01:01:23.320
never going to edit. I'm never going to edit you

1122
01:01:23.500 --> 01:01:26.199
ever because it's just too good. It's too real and

1123
01:01:26.239 --> 01:01:28.550
it's too human and I'm here for it. So thank

1124
01:01:28.590 --> 01:01:30.849
you guys. I appreciate it. And I want to know

1125
01:01:30.909 --> 01:01:34.190
before I try to, you know, potentially not very gracefully

1126
01:01:34.230 --> 01:01:36.869
land the plane. Is there anything else that you guys,

1127
01:01:37.590 --> 01:01:39.090
you guys want to share today?

1128
01:01:40.349 --> 01:01:45.010
This was so unexpectedly, I think, perfect and beautiful. I

1129
01:01:45.050 --> 01:01:49.079
think you're, um, your perspective and sort of what you

1130
01:01:49.119 --> 01:01:52.690
stand for, your values feel really aligned. And I feel

1131
01:01:52.750 --> 01:01:55.269
really like this feels like this was supposed to happen

1132
01:01:55.289 --> 01:01:56.809
at this moment. I know it feels like that for

1133
01:01:56.849 --> 01:02:00.760
me emotionally. And so I just want to say thank you.

1134
01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:02.300
Thank you.

1135
01:02:02.360 --> 01:02:04.320
I agree. Thank you. Thank you so much.

1136
01:02:04.480 --> 01:02:05.519
Thank you for your magic.

1137
01:02:05.900 --> 01:02:08.500
Thank you, guys. Literally, that's what I was going to say.

1138
01:02:09.239 --> 01:02:12.760
You got the plane landed for me and I'm grateful.

1139
01:02:12.800 --> 01:02:15.489
So thank you for your magic. Thank me for my

1140
01:02:15.530 --> 01:02:18.670
magic and thank the listeners and viewers for your magic. Please,

1141
01:02:19.070 --> 01:02:22.449
I hope that everybody who's listening just like has leaned

1142
01:02:22.570 --> 01:02:24.869
in and has maybe felt the chills right along with

1143
01:02:24.949 --> 01:02:29.630
us because it's been like a lot and I'm just grateful.

1144
01:02:29.800 --> 01:02:33.019
So until next time, my friends, we will see you

1145
01:02:33.059 --> 01:02:38.780
next time on Quick Before You Forget. That was so

1146
01:02:38.820 --> 01:02:42.400
much fun. Thank you for investing your time, energy and

1147
01:02:42.579 --> 01:02:45.619
thought into spending some time with me today. I really

1148
01:02:45.639 --> 01:02:48.980
appreciate you. And I really appreciate when you talk back.

1149
01:02:49.639 --> 01:02:52.389
So please, if you're here still, thank you so much.

1150
01:02:53.010 --> 01:02:56.010
Please tell me what you thought. Tell me what other

1151
01:02:56.070 --> 01:02:59.989
questions you have. Tell me how this episode affected you

1152
01:03:00.070 --> 01:03:02.260
and how it resonated with you and all of the things.

1153
01:03:02.320 --> 01:03:05.559
Tell me all the things in the comments. And please

1154
01:03:05.639 --> 01:03:08.480
know that I'm reading every single comment, responding to every

1155
01:03:08.519 --> 01:03:12.719
single comment. And I appreciate you. Thank you for being

1156
01:03:12.760 --> 01:03:16.360
here with me today. Please also like, share, subscribe if

1157
01:03:16.420 --> 01:03:19.030
this if this episode was fun for you. It'll be

1158
01:03:19.050 --> 01:03:21.010
fun for a friend, so send it to a friend

1159
01:03:21.170 --> 01:03:24.710
that might enjoy a little laughter, a little joy, and

1160
01:03:24.730 --> 01:03:29.610
a little more time investing in themselves. And today, I

1161
01:03:30.210 --> 01:03:34.829
am proudly sponsored, not sponsored, by Zeke's Village Market in

1162
01:03:34.849 --> 01:03:40.900
Door County, Wisconsin, which provided this fantastic shirt, which Ephraim

1163
01:03:40.960 --> 01:03:42.840
is a really cute town in Door County. If you

1164
01:03:42.880 --> 01:03:47.079
haven't been there, it's beautiful. It's very much Cape Cod style.

1165
01:03:48.090 --> 01:03:50.320
It's the Cape Cod of the Midwest. So I just

1166
01:03:50.449 --> 01:03:53.239
have to show you the design because the design is

1167
01:03:53.860 --> 01:03:56.179
what makes it a souvenir with soul. So we're going

1168
01:03:56.199 --> 01:04:09.889
to stand up. Every single design from Zeke's has heart

1169
01:04:09.909 --> 01:04:13.230
and soul put into it. And it's designed and they

1170
01:04:13.309 --> 01:04:17.469
partner with Guilty Apparel. And the two together are a

1171
01:04:17.690 --> 01:04:21.739
dynamic duo of awesomeness. So I am so grateful for

1172
01:04:21.800 --> 01:04:25.900
their belief in me and their beautiful designs and their

1173
01:04:25.920 --> 01:04:28.659
souvenirs with soul. And I will see you next time

1174
01:04:29.300 --> 01:04:30.320
on Quick Before You Forget.