Believe in Your Magic: Alice of Oz with Terence Sullivan and Ellen Baker

0:00 I think Alice is more quickly sympathetic to other people's pain before she is to hers. And so it's when she's watching the injustice with Wendy, and that's really where you see her kind of behave as she truly is meant to be, because the injustice is when she's like, nope, stop. We're not doing that. And so it's very much, I think, her starting to listen more to her voice than to anyone else's. Whew. Talk about emotions. So as a human being and as a woman in this world, I'm going to just be really honest and transparent and vulnerable with you two because I feel like we're besties now.

0:41 We are. Friends, you are not ready. I have the coolest guests today. Taryn Sullivan and Ellen Baker are in the house. Hi, guys. Hi. Hi. Hi, hi, hi. Hi. I'm kind of nervous. I'm not going to lie.

1:22 Did you know that fear and excitement are the same chemically in your brain? They are. That's what I hear. That makes sense. Yes. I'm not scared. I'm just excited. Exactly. That's where I'm at because, guys, this is totally unreal for me. As a fan of all three parts of the multiverse of Oz and a fan of both of you, I am unwell. And this is the thing. I thought we should level set. And I want to tell you a little bit about the podcast to start with because it's literally a little bit in line with everything that you're doing. So quick before you forget. is a personal growth and development podcast aimed at helping empower people to build their unreal life from the ground up using tools like music, mindset, and movement to remember who they are while they build who they're meant to be.

2:18 And I know that's a lot. I just got emotional. So when Ellen said that you'd reached out, I looked you up in the podcast. I was like, oh my God, this is perfect. Because this I mean, and Ellen can speak more to this, but so much of what this whole process was was about mindset and about sort of tapping into the gifts that I had or she had. And it is it's not easy. It's not it's not an easy journey at all. No. So this is a gift that you're giving that this exists for people. Thank you. That means the world to me. Truly. Truly. And it's every single word of that like really long description holds meaning to my soul. So that means a lot.

3:05 And this is unreal. This is happening, but we're making it real. It's all very fascinating to me. So I think we start there. Like I think you talk us through and like start, maybe we rewind because the three of us know where we're at, right? But maybe we rewind and talk us through that first famous viral TikTok? So that, so it's interesting that one, I had had some content go viral before that. And the, the, the first one was actually, um, uh, Christmas story called, um, it was the untold Christmas legend at the time. And people had asked, um, people were like, Oh, I want a book. I want a book. And I was like, Oh, could I do that? And I was like, yeah, why not?

3:54 Of this was 2021, I think it was in Wisconsin. It was like the darkest period of my life. And I just wrote this book with my thumbs on my phone and I got it to sort of a draft. I mean, I can't even call it that. I mean, Ellen, Ellen will tell you it was one long paragraph. And at that time I was like, I need to find somebody who truly understands the craft and would be willing to be a mentor to me because I feel like I'm, my strong suit is that I'm sort of fearless and I'll do anything, but the better tenant of my personality is I know that I need other people to get me there. And so I had sort of started looking for editors and then Ellen and I started talking and I just sort of fell in love with her. And I knew in my heart, I was like, the way she wrote women, I was like, this is the person that will be that will really protect these characters. So that was one book. So I was writing that with Ellen when I started doing the Oz multiverse, and then that exploded. And I had no idea it would take off like that. And so I started churning out more and more. And then during that same period, I started, or maybe a year later, because that series went on for a while, I started querying and agents were asking

5:24 for Oz. And so Ellen and I made the decision. It was like Christmas. And I was like, I think we're done querying winter tide. And I'm going to focus on writing this book for the next two years. Ellen, how was that? How was that for you? Like being involved with that original story and then pivoting, like what was that like on your end? It was incredible because, um, first of all, when Terrence and I first met, um, he did have this manuscript that he had written with his thumbs, which I found amazing. I can't type anything with my thumbs. And that he had this creative energy, this groundswell of energy was so inspiring to me. And I loved, I saw so much potential in the way that he visually saw stories. And I knew that I could help him with the word part of it. And it's not even the words, like It's more like the structure of the words.

6:23 He always had the right words. It was just, you know, maybe putting them in a different order or putting the comma in or putting the paragraph break in. The commas are the issue for me. But he's such a fast learner and he took his background in acting, his training in theater, his brilliant mind for scene and point of view. And, and we just, he was a sponge and he soaked up everything and he worked so hard. It was so impressive to me. Like I give him this manuscript back with, you. Know, a million comments and he would, he would just dive in, like, just, just dig into it and he'd work and work and work and work.

7:09 And then he'd come back with it. And, um, finally, um, we had a manuscript that was ready to query and that was so exciting. And we were, we were just like, totally thrilled with this book called Wintertide. Is that the full title? That's not the full title. Once Upon a Winter Tide. Once Upon a Winter Tide. Why did that leave my brain? You guys speak in code now because you've been working together so long. So thank you for translating for us. Thank you. So anyway, he started querying agents and people were requesting it and loving it. But yet they really wanted to see Oz and they were worried about Winter Tide being a Christmas book and that there's such a short window to sell that. Now that was something I had never thought of. I just love the story so much. And I was like, so excited about it. But as soon as we started getting those kind of beat that feedback, it was like, you know, you've got this potential here.

8:04 Like Oz is so big on Tik TOK by this time. And, you know, he's doing all this stuff at the same time he's writing and learning to be a novelist, which again, blows my mind. But yeah, so he, he, never backs down from a challenge. And we agreed and I was like, okay, we're going to do this. We're going to, he's going to write the draft. And, and it's a long story from there, from all the work that went into it from there. But that was early 2023 that, um, that that decision was made. So literally years, like we've been working on this for a while and I need to like double click on a couple of things because Terrence, you said you were writing with, you wrote a manuscript with your thumbs. And I like that kind of like went right over here.

8:50 And then she mentioned it again. So did you write the whole thing like in your notes app? Like what were you doing? Yeah. So I, my kids were, my kids were three at the time. And so I, there was never a time to like be at my computer and they were early risers. So it'd be like four in the morning and I'd be in the playroom with them just on my notes app. And I would just furiously write Did I ever go back and edit? Absolutely not. I was like, good enough. We're going to keep going. Well, progress over perfection. Yeah. I'm definitely, I'm a believer of, um, don't let good enough be the enemy of perfect or whatever that saying is. Yeah. Yeah.

9:32 Well, and there's commas. You said something about commas, but you also said Wisconsin. Sorry. Like I, I wrote down a lot of things and it's cause it's a lot, but like, are you, do you live in Wisconsin? Were you in Wisconsin? I was in Wisconsin briefly for a period. My husband was the executive director of a theater out there and that took us out there during COVID. We didn't stay long. Commas. So I'll just be really transparent about me as a writer. I had no business sitting down and saying, oh, I can write a book. Like absolutely no business. In fact, I still, you know, the imposter syndrome is real. You know, I know how to tell a story. I know how to write, but I don't know the rules, so to speak.

10:19 I mean, my background, I have a degree in painting, so, like, there were no commas in painting. And I was really transparent with Ellen about that. I was like, you have to teach me everything. And she's so patient, and I'm emotional about it, but, like, for her to, for years, sort of, just see that potential in me and, like, kind of guide me was... I mean, you can't... I believe things happen for a reason, and meeting her was one of the best things that I think has happened to me developing into who I am, truly. This may surprise you, both of you, but this is a safe space. I don't know why I'm echoing a little bit, but this is a safe space, and you actually absolutely need to let the emotions fly.

11:09 Oh, that's good, because I can't contain them. That's not a possibility for me. I I'm right there with you most of the time. And it's worse when I'm tired and I am tired. Cause as I told you guys, right before we started recording, I was reading your book until two 30 in the morning because. I'm so honored by that. It's been that good though. Like we, we had guys, you can go check the Tik TOK. There's proof. We had a little chat on Terrence's Tik TOK about this because I said what I said, and then being humble Terrence, he said, what? That's crazy. I'm so humbled. Thank you so much. I'm emotional. And I said, well, yes, because when you're flying, you stay flying. Like I am flying high from this book because it's so good and it's flying in my heart. It's flying in my soul. And the conversation around like how it came to be is just really stinking cool. So talk us through then once you pivoted from like the, what was it? The winter one.

12:08 I'm forgetting. Wintertide. Wintertide. So once you pivoted from wintertide, first of all, Big pivot, lots of characters, like, fully different universes, fully different, like, let's pause on that for a second, because, like, that was a huge mental shift, I'm sure. I noticed you're giving the people what they were asking for. So, like, you were getting inundated with all of the messages and all of the messages about, like, this is a book, you need to write this book. And you're still dealing with imposter syndrome, even though you've written a masterpiece about So the stories, though, that you're telling with people believing in things that other people can't see. So we have Alice believing in something that people can't see. We have Wendy believing in something that people can't see. When did you, Terrence and Ellen, start believing in what you couldn't see in this book?

13:06 Ellen, you want to take that one? I'm just trying to recover for the second. Yeah. Yeah, and I get emotional too because I believed in Terrence from the first and that has been a big part of our process has been believing in each other when the other one would falter a little bit. But I always saw him as a storyteller. And the storytelling is the hard part of being an author. The other part, the technical parts, you can learn, you can be taught.

13:48 And it means so much to me to hear you say what you're saying about the book, because those are the things that I saw in it from the beginning. And I've just been waiting for the world to discover Terrence as an author, because I just cannot wait for the world to, to experience this story. I just, every time I would read a new draft, I would be blown away. And then I sent him back all these comments of like, what if you did this? And what if you did this? And, and like, let's straighten out this storyline. Cause I'm a big one for combing through it, like threads and like making sure all the details line up and all the magic is correct. And you know, all that stuff. And so, so he's the big picture, the big strokes. And I'm the like, let's get that little, period in there. I always, I always believed it. I always believed in it from the first time we talked.

14:39 And we need that. Yeah. Well, I couldn't, I could, there's no, there's no world where, I mean, I think that I, I think that that's right. I think that Ellen at times carried the belief for me. And I think that, and I remember I, I remember so much about the first draft, like writing Ellen and being like, what? Who the fuck do I think I am writing this story? Do you know what I mean? Like who in the world would take this on? And then I think that because the really the community that I'm very fortunate that I feel like I've built a community that's really supportive and receives a lot of value from my content people. if it's crazy or whatever it is.

15:20 And so I sort of felt like it, it didn't totally belong to me. So I was just sort of like, I've been tasked with doing this by support. And so it's like, I couldn't really, I couldn't really quit. You know what I mean? Like that it was for everyone else. I, for the people that watch the show, they get to see the fun things that I have in collection behind me. One of which is a Lego set with Oz and, And the Emerald City. I see it. Yes, it's there. It's there. And the Yellow Brick Road. And I talk about my Yellow Brick Road and how I feel like for years now, I keep showing up and I never, I told a story on the show recently about how I was legally blind when I was four years old. I was, I couldn't see the big, the big E, like the big one.

16:12 Yeah. But I was four, so I didn't know letters. It was a K. And I couldn't tell that it was a birthday cake. And I couldn't see out of my left eye. So my mom patched my right eye to help encourage my muscles and stuff to work. And now I got to be an adult who could see. And I started riding roller coasters and decided to close my eyes. Like I could see. I was an adult that could see. And I decided to close my eyes because it was too scary. And now here I am, a 41-year-old woman. who can see and I'm living life with my eyes open and my heart open and my arms up. And I'm embracing this internet persona I'm inheriting kind of called the emo rollercoaster gal. And I can't see anything in front of me more than like a foot. Like, so that's what the yellow brick road is for me. The yellow brick road is a thing where I believe that I keep showing up and the bricks keep happening in front of me.

17:06 And I don't always know if they're going to fall out from under me. if they're going to be crunchy, if they're going to kick my butt, you know, but they're there, they keep showing up and I keep doing the thing. That's the hard thing, the scary thing. And it's always better with people. Like it's always better with the people that come along and help you on your yellow brick road. I believe that you two were meant to come together and work on this and be really good compliments for each other, which gets me to my question that I can't wait to ask you because in my research, I learned, and you guys can correct me if I'm wrong on this, but in my research, I learned that there's something about a hundred pages of diary or journal that didn't make it.

17:47 Oh, well, yes. So there is, there's more than way more than that. But I, that the one topic you're speaking about, so there was a character called Dr. James Preston and he was Alice's psychoanalyst and they had a, an amazing relationship. And so much of what he, this was the research Did I lose you? Oh, my computer's weird. Some of the research that I was doing when I started Oz was around dream analysis and the different schools of thought. And I was using James very much as a way to sort of help Alice through sort of what she was trying to process. And in building him, I basically became him. I mean, he is very much me on the page.

18:33 Yeah. And so we actually both loved and adored him. And he was in the final manuscript that got sent to agents. And once I got my agent, she read through it and she said, I don't think we need him. And so it was like, I could have said, no, this is the book as it is. But I, again, believe in smarter, mostly women, smarter women. Their perspective is very valuable to me. And so we went, I think it took, a few months, but I effectively sort of removed a huge piece of that book and then had to recraft the story without him. And it is a better book without him, but he was amazing. We love James Preston.

19:18 We thank him for his service. Yes, and we hope to see him again, perhaps. Perhaps we will in books two and three, which are all already brainstormed. Yep. I'd say that every major plot and arc is pretty much constructed. And so now it's just sort of building the world around that. And that is so cool because you took something that, and something, well, I am getting ahead of myself because I wanted to say something more about the pages that got lost. Is this the stuff that, were you therapizing yourself? Oh, I'm always therapizing myself. I'm sure. I mean, anytime Ellen and I were talking, we're like, well, you know how I would process this. Right.

20:06 So that character sounds like a therapy session for you, which is really fun. And like, I, I, I do that too in writing. Like you do, you do, you do that. And it's fascinating. And I'm wondering, it makes me actually legitimately curious. Like what, what was that the hardest thing that you let go of for the book? Or was there something that was more challenging than that? You know, I would say that was the hardest thing to let go of. Um, really that whole, it's such a beautiful and complex sort of world that the, because we don't get London after she leaves, but that he remained in London for a time. But when the thing I learned is I can't be precious, like this, as much as I want to hold on to things like this, it's about this story being the best story. And so when, you know, be it Ellen or, you know, Deborah, who's titan in the industry says like it would be better without this i'm i will absolutely take that advice at least try it there's definitely been times where we've tried edits that were recommended and i've been like no that's it doesn't work.

21:18 So how do you stay how do you respect what's already there in the stories When you're trying to, because people obviously are very passionate about all of these different stories and those stories are precious. So how do you navigate that windy road of trying to make sure that you're adding to the story, but also respecting what's there? It's such, that's such a good question because I mean, no kidding. Like if you want to talk about a loud community, like the purists, I mean, the purists are going to have a problem with, they're not even going to pick it up. That's fine. Um, but there's such a, there's such a large community of people who are looking, they, they want that feeling back or they, they want, you know, they, they've attached themselves to Alice and they, you know, at the most vulnerable parts of our life, we've connected with these characters. And so for me, there are, I wanted very much, um, that the canon was respected, that every sort of new iteration of it could be drawn back to the book and say, I understand how this would evolve into this. But I think the biggest thing was in developing Alice and Wendy, even though she's a small part of this book, it was, we talked at length about, based on who they were in the children's books, if we had them sort of evolve in this environment, who would they become? What would they still hold on to from those characters? And what would be a tension And so I felt like the character arc remained so true

22:51 to who I believed they were in the children's stories that as long... And Ellen was really great about protecting them where she would be like, I don't think Alice would do this or I think Wendy would be feeling this. And so as long as I stayed true to those two characters, everything else really felt... Like, I don't feel like anything in this book feels like a sort of... affront or like anything that would be considered like disrespectful to the original text i think now somebody can obviously find something i'm sure and. They may the purists as you say but also i'm wondering ellen is there anything because he mentioned like you know the the fight to cut or keep something was there anything that you fought to keep that terence maybe thought we should be cutting.

23:37 Oh chess the chess scene there's. There was a chess scene that was in its original version. I think it was 30 or 40 pages long. And we needed that to be shorter. And that was hard because he had worked on it so much. And I wanted to cut it at one point. I was like, just get rid of it. Like, I'm so tired of it. I don't want to do it anymore. But then we realized the scene was needed. It just needed to be trimmed down. And that was challenging for me because I don't know chess and Terrence had studied it and understood it. So I was really just dealing more with the characters. There's a dialogue that's going on and it's a real pivotal point in the book, even though it's a quiet moment in the book. It's usually a fast pace of action going on in the whole book. And this is a scene where people are just sitting still. And there's a dialogue, but it's very complicated. So I would work on the characters and the dialogue and the little movements. And he knew the chess, but we did.

24:40 I didn't know the chess. So there was this website called like Next Best Chess Move or something. And so I would sit there and I would have to play with myself and then record what the moves were. And I needed to get to a stalemate. So I had, like, notepads of, okay, the rook goes here, then I go here, and then I would take that move and then build the dialogue and action around each player. So do we have a full chess scene in it? Somebody who knows chess will be like, I don't know, or maybe it's actually perfect. But the point was the emotional character-driven moment in that. Exactly. Exactly. And then as far as cutting my main major recollection, as far as our back and forth, because we went back and forth many, many times on this and we'd do sections and then sometimes we'd do the whole book.

25:31 But there would be times when I would give him suggestions. I think it was particularly about the ending because that. Changed many times. There were many different versions of it, but I would think it was almost perfect. And I'd be like, well, just do this, this and this. And then the next time I see it, he's thrown it all out and done it all over again. Cause, cause that his imagination is so, so quick that he could imagine it a whole different way. Whereas I was like, no, just, just a little bit. So then we, we'd go with, with that. But, but I, I think my thing was always just to try to make sure the characters were being consistent and the And the structure and the, you know, as you said so kindly at the beginning that it's a page turner. That was me trying to, like, let's get the words cut down to the point where we're just flipping pages trying to find out what happens. So there was never any arguments between us, I wouldn't say.

26:32 I don't. I would never argue with someone smarter than me that it's absolutely not my approach to life. And I also didn't argue if you were like, if you felt something strongly, I, I wasn't going to tell you what the story was supposed to be. I was just trying to help you put it on the page in the way that will be friendly for the reader and compel compelling for the reader. Yeah. You guys are such a good team. Yeah. You just compliment each other really well. And it makes me want to revisit. How did you, how did you meet? Like, how did, how did that connection happen? Am I just forgetting? Did you tell me? Oh, no. So I had, I had reached out. I was looking for editors. And so I'd reached out to Ellen.

27:17 So you picked her for a reason. What was your reason? Okay. So she had at this time, it was her old website. And, um, First of all, she did historical fiction, which is I live for historical fiction. I wanted a historical fiction writer because I wanted so much of the behavior of the women, the costume. I wanted everything to feel truthful to the time, not somebody who is going in and like, I'm going to reinvent everything and it's going to be a modern character. Like I was like, no, this has to be truthful. And so I loved that. And then also she had this, I can't remember the quote, but it was like her looking beautiful on the beach, her like hair blowing in the wind. I was like, she looks like such a nice person. And so I reached out to her. And then I asked her for a proposal for an editorial letter. And I got quite a few at the time. And she was hands down.

28:11 At that time, I started reading her first book. Your first book? Keeping the House. Keeping the house. And about five pages, it's within the first seven pages, there was a carriage scene. And I love a carriage scene. And the way she described what was happening internally for the character as she was watching the environment, I was like, this is so cinematic and theatrical. This is exactly how I see sort of this world coming to life. And I do have a carriage scene that is, I thought about Ellen as I wrote the entire thing. I love that so much. I think it comes across in the writing. I actually have a very dear friend who's doing a writing workshop in a couple months called Show, Don't Tell, which I guess and know is like this reading and literary thing that I just kind of glossed over somehow in my psychology and communications studies. I've always been a reader. Don't get me wrong, but show don't tell is a thing. And it's very fresh on my mind because I'm working with my friend and helping her a little bit to promote this workshop. And I started reading the book and I texted her within three pages and said, Kelly, this is, this book is show don't tell.

29:27 You guys, you guys see the picture and you feel like you're there. Like I, and in, The historical fiction was the right choice because I think the the way that you're able to feel like you're in that era and it's more than just the, the word choices, but it's the order of the words. And it's the way that you feel the whole, I like, I want you, I felt like I was in the, the when the Scarlet, I'm going to mess up the story. I don't want to mess up the story, but there was a scene very close to the beginning where some, some heads were lost and I also don't want to spoil anything. So I'm just going to try not to spoil anything, but it was, I could, I felt like I was in the movie. Like I was like living in the movie and that is good writing like that. And I've, I've read a lot and it's been a bit since I've read some fiction. And I just wanted to say that like that choice to, to lean in, and really be conscious of and intentional about the words and the choices and the way that you bring these scenes to life is so, what's really cool for me is as a fan of Terrence and his skits on the internet. Um, if you don't know Terrence's skits on the internet, what rock are you living under? Cause I was, I mean, for, for, for real though, like I, I confession, um, I mentioned I live in Wisconsin. I'm a mama of two boys.

30:59 Wait, which part of Wisconsin? Milwaukee area. Oh, okay. I was in La Crosse. So you were in a pretty, like that's actually a very pretty area. Although like in the wintertime and during COVID, it was super dark and depressing. It was. 100%. I literally wrote down Wisconsin dark earlier in my notes. So yes, unfortunately, six months out of the year. But I'm a very basic mama. And I am a very gullible human that gets scammed a lot. So I was watching those videos thinking for sure, for sure, that our friend Terrence was sitting in his living room talking to Ryan Reynolds. Oh, yes. Yes. You got me, sir. You got me. And I was like, and I even, there's probably a legitimate paper trail of this, friends, because like back in the day, all those videos are still there. And back in the day I was commenting and I like for a while, if you look through the comments, it's very clear that your girl Ty thought that Terrence was sitting in his living room with Ryan Reynolds for real based on how I was commenting, which is crazy.

32:06 But I love that. Me too. Because it was good. It was good entertainment at the time. And honestly, you know, it was just, you're very talented, like super talented. And, The way that you were able to bring those characters, the way that you are, because they're still a thing, but the way that you're able to bring those different characters to life with these hugely different personalities is incredible. But the reason I'm belaboring all this is that you do the same thing in the book. And I'm wondering which of the characters... I think I know the answers. But which of the characters are you most proud of? Like the development and the artistry and the cinematography of bringing those characters to life. Like which character, Terrence, we'll start with you, are you most proud of?

32:49 That's such a great question. Okay, I love Langwadir. I think she is absolutely... deranged in the best way and she is she she became the version of of a villain that i had in my head for her and i'm really proud of it um i am i love uh malloy um without giving away sort of her arc i very complex um morally gray character with the heart of gold and i love those kind of characters who you watch their bad decisions and you know their intention, but they still keep getting in their own way. Yeah.

33:35 I mean, it's mainly, it's really all the women because I just, it's mainly just women in this book that you're exposed to. Yeah. I would say Malloy and Languedier. How about you, Alan? I mean, Alice, of course. Of course. I feel like that's a cop out. And we do need to get to Alice. Like we really do. So that like bookmark that. But Alan, how about you? Yeah. Well, of course, Alice. And because she's she's the hero of the story, which I love. But Terrence also writes really, really good villains. And there's a witch, the witch Mambi in this book. As she appears. I love her.

34:16 Like she does some of them. craziest things and you. Kind of root for her she's like she's just like a woman who's so over everyone and you just sort of root for her she's so authentically herself yeah. Yeah and i love um i i love the male characters actually um there's a couple there's blinkum the prince um there's um evaldo the king who's kind of a dastardly um horrible figure but i like him um And then actually at the end, Peter Pan makes a cameo and I can't wait to, I can't wait to meet him more because he, when he shows up on the page, I'm like, oh wow, this guy's pretty interesting. The way that Terrence has imagined him.

35:02 So yeah. Yeah. I forgot that Peter's in this one because we, it ended up being the epilogue, but so the first draft we wrote, I wrote basically halfway through the second book. So all of Peter and Wendy's backstory and it's, it's not what we expect it to be. And I really love him and what, what he'll become. Yeah. So, so I'm excited for that, but, um, Also the dragon. I have to add, I love the dragon in the book. She doesn't have any lines, but. She has not gotten to the dragon yet. Oh my gosh. I have so much to look forward to. I heard something in what both of you said, which was really cool.

35:44 You both talked about people that are being authentically themselves. And is that not the whole point of all this is the idea of, you know, being told that you're something. but knowing, like just know, you just know, and you can't, a lot of times you can't put the words to it. And that's what I feel like Alice is grappling with in these first 20 chapters that I've been like reading and like literally whipping through because you can tell that she's like battling with this, like, well, who am I? Right. Like, and that's, that's the whole point. So talk to me about the mirror and like, and all of, all of the things, I mean, like I say, I don't want to be a spoiler. Tell me what you can.

36:29 But talk to me about what the mirror and that imagery means to you. Yeah, actually, to be totally honest, I consciously was sort of adverse to going heavily with the mirror imagery because I believed, and we wrote that, I'm not sure what survived the edit, but she basically stopped looking at herself in a mirror. So it became this huge sense of trauma and this huge sense of, well, I've been, you know, effectively, like, I've been told that I'm not this or not to believe this. And, you know, I think it's very true, not only of Alice, but of women at that time, of women now. But, I mean, we were in a time period where they were fighting for the vote, that we were on the verge of war, that, you know, the way they behaved, they were discarded. If, you know, I mean, don't even get me started on laundries. I'm going to go into my like historical fiction world, but like the, the way society treated women, I think already created this dissonance for them. And then to her, she had such a grand sort of kind of, between who she was and who she was told that there is a moment where she finally does look in the mirror and you can see it's with her and Wendy and it's more she's watching Wendy's sort of disillusionment in her reflection.

38:02 And that, I think Alice is more quickly sympathetic to other people's pain before she is to hers. And so it's when she's watching the injustice with Wendy and that's really where you see her becoming kind of behave as she truly is meant to be because the injustice is when she's like, nope, stop. We're not doing that. And so it's very much, I think, her starting to listen more to her voice than to anyone else's. Talk about emotions. So as a human being and as a woman in this world, I'm going to just be really honest and transparent and vulnerable with you two because I feel like we're besties now.

38:43 We are. We are. Um, I, I had a problem with alcohol and, uh, it got me in real big trouble. I ended up very sick and the doctors told me at 35 years old that I would need a liver transplant. Oh my gosh. Fortunately, fortunately, God is good. And I am fully, almost completely, my liver is almost entirely healed now. Oh my God. Amazing. Doctors call it a miracle because it wasn't likely like they were pretty, it was grim. My eyes were yellow. I was in the hospital for a while. It was very, very bad. And this was kind of in the era where TikToks like yours, Terrence, were an escape and like a comic relief for real, for real. And I couldn't.

39:30 not face myself. Like I could not look in the mirror and I did not see what everyone else was seeing. And I had people for years now, people were telling me that I was the secret sauce or that I was the main character or that I could do the scary thing that I for sure didn't think I was enough to do. And there were a lot, just like with Alice and just like with Wendy and just like with every, every heroine that we've ever loved, there were a lot of outside forces for bad kind of reinforcing this. I'm not enough. I can't do it. I'm not good enough. I need more reps, all that stuff.

40:10 No, no. So here we are on this podcast, which I decided to do as a way to hopefully help empower and kind of inspire others to kind of become their own light. And for me, a lot of that started with looking in the mirror. Like I legitimately avoid because and I'm, you know, because on this journey, I'm down 80 pounds. I've lost about 20 inches off of my waist. And like I say, the doctors say. I'm so happy for you. Thank you, truly. And I'm trying to hold it together, but I'm not doing, I'm close. But I am so grateful for a reminder in a book like this that you are worthy and you need to look in the mirror.

40:55 And sometimes it does take a friend. Here we are on the little brick road again. Sometimes it takes a friend to remind you, to force you to get defensive on that friend's account, but The point is, you guys are my friend in this situation because you guys are the ones that are like, you know, coming on the show is like a leap of faith. And I appreciate your time and your energy and sharing all the things and having this be a safe space. But I was the girl in the mirror that couldn't look at herself. And content, creative energy, all of the goodness that you guys pour into the world does make a difference for people like me. So I'm grateful because I do 100% without knowing as much as I want to know about all this multiverse, without knowing all the characters intimately like you guys do, I can feel that I was meant to get this book in my life right now. And that is incredible because your spark that you are imposter syndrome-ing yourself about, Terrence, is... powerful. And you needed to hear this from a human being that your spark matters.

42:04 Your story matters. This story will have an, a similar impact on not just me, obviously. And you need to know that like, I have big hopes, big dreams, big things happening, and that's going to be contagious. And it has a lot to do with creative creativity, creativity, and creative energy that you have chosen to put into the world. So on behalf of like Alice's everywhere, thank you. And truly, I mean that because, you know, and I didn't mean to, I did not mean to talk so much about me. But when you said she stopped looking in the mirror, yes. And women do that. Like I literally did. I literally live in a fairly small house. I literally avoided the mirror.

42:47 It's why y'all between us, because nobody's, you know, it's just us here. I love. Started posting pictures of myself on the internet in the mirror on purpose. It's like exposure therapy. Talk about yourself instead of not looking in the mirror. I'm literally, that's the, there's a, there's a whole, there's hundreds of photos of me now in the mirror selfie and it's intentional and on purpose and reflective and all of it. So thank you. And I like, I'm, I'm off on this tangent because it's, I think it's important. I think that people need to lean in and find and listen to the underlying message, which is that like, you need to listen to your heart and you need to follow your heart. And sometimes that doesn't make sense to other people, but you got to keep going anyway.

43:32 So, yeah, that was, thank you for sharing that. And, and, um, that feedback is invaluable to me. You have no idea that really, um, You know, when I think about what we set out to sort of achieve, and I say we, because again, without Ellen, there is no us. Like what you just said is really sort of the pinnacle of what I could hope someone would take from it. So it's huge. Well, thank you. And I'm wondering, because you said you're a dad. Ellen, are you a mama? No. That's okay, too. That's okay. Yes. I'm guessing she has. Do you have pets? I do. Because you seem like a very... nurturing, nurturing human that needs to have something to love like that. So your cat is very, very lucky. Parents, you have, you have kids. What, what is your message for them in all this? Like, what do you want them to garner? What have they taught you that you want to share?

44:29 Well, it's very interesting. So Ellen sort of watched the evolution of this. Um, while I was writing, um, Oz, uh, there were communication delays with my, my twins and they were, they were born early. Um, and during that they were diagnosed with autism and they, the world is very different to them and the world, um, as they experience it is very different. And, you know, I, There's no way for me not to think about how people perceive the world and how things affect you, how they affect your nervous system. And so I think that it really informed so much of sort of every character's, the cause and effect of how other people behave and what safety looks like and where we find safety, not only in ourselves, but with other people. So I think that their own unique, creatures.

45:30 And I think that there's no way that I, that changed my perspective on the world. I love that. And have they, I was just wondering if they, if that perspective, if their perspective, like contributed to your writing at all, like if they're. Oh, 1000%. So, um, winter, winter tide was, I mean, I was sort of watching the world in, in a cave with them. And so it was, You know, so much of writing that. And I, you know, I think not realizing too, I carry a lot of grief. My mother died when I was, you know, 19. And so the fairy tales and these sort of stories from, you know, as a new parent, you know, there was so much nostalgia and I think grief that I was processing in the creation of these. And you'll see that mothers are very, very important to all of my stories, right?

46:26 My dad died when I was 23. So grief is very, a very real thing. And working, that's why I have such respect for people that can turn their grief into something good. And like you, that's what you're doing with your work. And that's really, really neat because we all have that. We all have a version of that, right? Like we all, and when you said that my heart dropped because that is a, we were, you and I were about the same age when we lost a parent and you know, that, changes the trajectory of your life in ways that you don't understand until much, much later. So, um, you know, just, just knowing that and hearing that from you, it's, it's powerful. Like it's very, um, I don't know, it, it changes things and mostly for good if we let it.

47:10 And that, that's, that's the whole point I think is like, you know, this is what you make it. And I'm wondering, like, as you guys were putting this all together, did you have a rule? Because I could see, the the brainstorming just go crazy did you have a rule for like what you could reinvent versus what was like sick like stayed sacred no no rules here we're. Good no um i i was pretty well the way i sort of had to map everything so i um, just walk us through that.

47:52 Cause I picture you like the guy from always sunny in Philadelphia with like the strings and like the, the, the board and like this and this and this and this. Yes. Tell us. It was a little, it was a little like that. So I didn't go into it originally being like, Oh, I'm going to, everything's going to tie together like this. I knew the Alice journey. And then, so what I knew was I wanted the wonderland dreams to sort of everything will be referenced in Oz. And so I would take the scene and I would say, okay, I need to find a queen. Then I would go into the Oz books and I would, you know, all right, this is the right queen to fill this role. And so everything is given justice without having to be reinvented in a way. Alice is really, in this book, well, Alice and Wendy, is really the only one sort of out of place in Oz's universe. And then as we move into book two, we'll definitely get a little further from Oz Origins. But I think it's pretty close to, at least referentially, it's close to the original stories. Not too much reinvention.

49:06 Ellen, are you a fan of these stories too? Or were you before this? So my. theory was that I didn't want to corrupt my own view of Terrence's story by going in and studying the original stories. So my knowledge of the original stories is actually woefully thin. I certainly know I've seen the movies, but no, I haven't read these original books, which I will, I think now And but I really did that on purpose because because I didn't want to always be wondering because knowing my own brain where I want everything to be accurate, I would have gotten too caught up in.

49:53 Well, she did that in in Baum's book. And how is she doing that here? I just wanted it to be Terrence's vision and Terrence's imagination that I was helping to just translate to the page. So that was how I approached it. You also had said, you were like, I remember you saying to me, because I was sending you stuff about Languidere and you were like, that's great. But I want to make sure that anyone can read this without having to be a historian on these stories. And I was like, oh, that's a great, it's a great approach. I love that. Yeah, because it needs to stand on its own as its own sort of myth and its own, its own legend. Yeah.

50:33 Like you don't have to read Alice or any of the Oz books to come into this and understand contextually what's going on, I think, right? I would agree because I actually, I have collected all these books, but I don't, like I have different, I actually have very, several copies of Alice in Wonderland, several. And it's because I've always identified with her story and, you know, it's fascinating to me. that I also have very, very fairly recently gotten into like the wicked world and, you know, Wizard of Oz and all that too. but I'm not as familiar as I know a lot of big, big fans are. So it was really cool getting into the book and feeling, I didn't, I would confirm as a reader that that was, you know, achieved because I didn't feel like I was missing any parts, but I also, there was enough illusion to the parts that I felt like the story was, was good. So I, I really, I think you guys nailed that in terms of like how to kind of bring, bring in those worlds without making it too much about like what we've missed. Like I didn't, like, I was like, okay, now what do like, I got to go back. No, but I also do now, which is really cool. And also a very, um, you know, we talk about the spark and how it catches in others.

51:48 It's actually really cool to me that this could, and should, in my opinion, potentially really inspire people to go and read the original books again and find. Out yes i mean for me because yes please for me that it's so there's um oh my god it's such a long thing but like there's this belief and i believe bomb had written about it um there's a great tiktoktor uh tori she's the oz vlog who talks about this but there at one point it was like he was saying that he that glinda came to him and brought him the stories and like so that all of these stories exist for everyone and the storyteller is just sort of the vessel And so the idea, which I love, and I love that the world has sort of accepted iterations and new retellings, but that it does, it does pay respect and bring eyes back to the original texts. And, um, I mean, they're really, it's, it's profound if you look at sort of those authors and what they were writing at the time, very much Baum. Um, they're, they really hold up. They're really, they're very feminist, which I love. They're very, his books are so feminist. Um, And, um, yeah, I love that. I love that you would go back and read any of those works.

53:01 Well, we talked about it privately and I want to share it with the world because it's really cool. I have this little book that has the words on it that are from Glinda, which is that the, um, I don't want to mess up the quote, but it's, it's that like, you've always had the power, my dear, you just had to see it for yourself. And you and I talked about, you're like, well, you just wait. Um, and without, without spoiling anything, can you talk more to that? Because that quote is kind of like a thread in, in all stories. So again, don't, don't say anything you shouldn't, but tell me, tell me what you can. That quote will come back. Um, and you will carry with it all of this context. And when Glinda says it, I, I can't, it's such a huge reveal, but it, um, We are marching towards that. That quote is going to carry so much weight when it is said and when she says it that I'm excited for you to get there.

54:02 Me too. So this whole conversation has been so fun, and I'm very grateful and conscious of your time. But I do want to wrap with a couple questions that are more like what I normally talk about, because usually there's an arc that I have just abandoned for the sake of Oz and for the sake of Alex, Alice. Um, but I, I want to bring one or two of the questions in, which is that, and I, and I, I think I know some of these answers already based on this conversation, but take it where you will. There's a couple that I'll, I'll try to watch our time and I want you both to answer, please. The first one is, uh, what would you tell 22 year old you if you could?

54:44 Ellen, you want to take that one? That, that's a hard one. Um, I would tell her that life is going to be interesting and just the way you want it to be. And even the challenges that you have will be of your own design and that it's all moving toward something. So just hang on. Buckle up. I hear you say buckle up. Terrence, how about you?

55:28 I would say you are not one thing. And you can do impossible things. And don't let anything stand in the way of those choices. Especially not yourself. Amen. Get out of your own way. And one of my mantras that I say a lot on the show is impossible is just a big word thrown around by small people. So you are speaking my language. You are speaking my language. And the other message that I really want to hear from both of you is if you had a megaphone and most of the world had to listen to you for 30 to 60 seconds, what would your message be?

56:22 Oh, I don't know if 30 to 60 seconds is long enough. It's not. So talk longer if you need to. I'm on your guys' watch. I have all the time we need. I really just, and I'm experiencing it a lot right now because I'm feeling vulnerable, but it's like, when did we stop being kind to one another? And just asking people to look for the good. like look for the good in others and look for the good in yourself. Like every interaction you have has energy and movement to it. And the way you treat people, I believe not only comes back to you, but does change people's lives. And so I think look for the good is what I would shout or get off the fucking internet.

57:13 Go touch some grass. Yeah. Ellen, how about you? This is hard for me because as a novelist I usually like to think my thoughts privately for about five years before I share. Them five years sounds about right you can think more because you know what I'll let you think if my talking doesn't ruin it I'll let you think and I will say that you know what came to mind for me when you were talking Terrence was a song called uh for good because i knew you i have been changed for good and that right there is why we're here right like that right there is why we're having this conversation because it's true for me because i knew you i have been changed for good but i also feel like because anybody who reads this book knew you they they will be changed for good so ellen.

58:12 It's awesome i'm gonna i'm gonna I'm going to steal something that Terrence always says to me. And I would say it. Over and over again into my megaphone for as long as they let me. He always says, thank you for your magic. And sometimes that's hard to hear for anyone, or maybe you don't fully. Take it in. And I think if more of us understood our own magic, And it's kind of what you were talking about with the spark and how it can spread good in the world that, you know, so I would just say to everyone, thank you for your magic.

58:52 Thank you for your magic. And let's make more of it. Let's stop being, again, what Terrence said, but, you know, let's stop being so caught up in our um, in our pain and our hatred and look for our talents and what we can create. I think we've talked a lot about grief and we've talked a lot about the sadness, but that's where creation comes from. That's where this book came from. That's where everything good actually comes from is, is the, the pain that we're all working through as humans. Um, And I think Alice, if I can just say, she is such a great model for us in how she deals with her pain and comes out. And I'm not going to give the ending away, but she's a great hero.

59:46 So that's what I would say. I got full body chills because... I did too. I'm glad I'm not alone. We're not alone. None of us are as alone as we think we are. And it's absolutely, dare I say, unreal because I actually have, I got really clear on my values this year. Like 2026 is the year that I'm very, for the very first time as a 41 year old grownup woman, I am very clear on my values and the acronym is MAGIC. It's an acronym, and I'm not going to walk us through it, but it's real and has everything to do with owning your magic and embracing your magic and understanding that your magic does indeed have value that can spark the magic in others. So the fact that, Ellen, you said what you said, and the fact that we're even here today having this conversation, to me, is the embodiment of everything that all three of us have been saying. which is that we own our magic. We look in the mirror and we own our magic and it can change the world in our little way. But the little ways aren't little when you look at the amplification that happens when the sparks fly, literally, because that's what's happening in this conversation.

1:01:08 That's what's happening in this book, with this book, through this book. And I'm so freaking grateful. I almost cussed. I don't cuss on my podcast if I can help it. I almost did. Sorry, I did. You might have to bleep me. There's no bleeping you, Terrence. I'm not, I'm not, I'm never going to edit. I'm never going to edit you ever because it's just too good. It's too real and it's too human and I'm here for it. So thank you guys. I appreciate it. And I want to know before I try to, you know, potentially not very gracefully land the plane. Is there anything else that you guys, you guys want to share today? This was so unexpectedly, I think, perfect and beautiful. I think you're, um, your perspective and sort of what you stand for, your values feel really aligned. And I feel really like this feels like this was supposed to happen at this moment. I know it feels like that for me emotionally. And so I just want to say thank you.

1:02:02 Thank you. I agree. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for your magic. Thank you, guys. Literally, that's what I was going to say. You got the plane landed for me and I'm grateful. So thank you for your magic. Thank me for my magic and thank the listeners and viewers for your magic. Please, I hope that everybody who's listening just like has leaned in and has maybe felt the chills right along with us because it's been like a lot and I'm just grateful. So until next time, my friends, we will see you next time on Quick Before You Forget. That was so much fun. Thank you for investing your time, energy and thought into spending some time with me today. I really appreciate you. And I really appreciate when you talk back.

1:02:49 So please, if you're here still, thank you so much. Please tell me what you thought. Tell me what other questions you have. Tell me how this episode affected you and how it resonated with you and all of the things. Tell me all the things in the comments. And please know that I'm reading every single comment, responding to every single comment. And I appreciate you. Thank you for being here with me today. Please also like, share, subscribe if this if this episode was fun for you. It'll be fun for a friend, so send it to a friend that might enjoy a little laughter, a little joy, and a little more time investing in themselves. And today, I am proudly sponsored, not sponsored, by Zeke's Village Market in Door County, Wisconsin, which provided this fantastic shirt, which Ephraim is a really cute town in Door County. If you haven't been there, it's beautiful. It's very much Cape Cod style.

1:03:48 It's the Cape Cod of the Midwest. So I just have to show you the design because the design is what makes it a souvenir with soul. So we're going to stand up. Every single design from Zeke's has heart and soul put into it. And it's designed and they partner with Guilty Apparel. And the two together are a dynamic duo of awesomeness. So I am so grateful for their belief in me and their beautiful designs and their souvenirs with soul. And I will see you next time on Quick Before You Forget.