Creators Get SBA Classification. Now What? | Avi Gandhi, Creators Guild #693

0:00 - Welcome to the New Media Show, and this - is episode six ninety three. And - I've got a terrific show for you tonight. - On October fifteenth of this year, - the US Small Business Administration - issued a guidance clarifying how - qualifying - creator led businesses - fit into - a small business classification - that is part of the SBA since content - creators really didn't have a classification - inside of the small business administration. So this - is a significant - change, - and it may bring a lot of opportunities. - And, really, the the the... This is about - treating creators - as real businesses.

0:41 - But - what actually changes is the bigger question that - that we're going to talk about, and what - opportunities does this unlock? - And will this recognition - lead to real access to capital credibility and - a more sustainable creator business? - Or is it just only a first step - on that process? - And I've got a terrific guest with me, - Avi Gandhi, who's the chair of the government - advocacy - group - for creators - at the Creators Guild for America, and he - joins me on the show tonight and... To - explain this SBA - announcement. So let's get into the show. - Welcome to the new media show with human - host and podcast hall of famer, - Rob Greenwood.

1:38 - Well, Andy, - welcome to the to the new media show. - It's great to have you here and with - with me, Avi, and and it's - really an honor to to really have this - topic on on the show. - And you've worked across - creator - representation, production platforms, partnerships, - really including the, you know, a lot of - agency talent - representation - in places like, - Patreon. - And, really, I think you're sitting in a - really great place to be an advocate for - creators - at the federal level and at the at - the government. So - like I say, welcome to the show. It's - great to have you with me. Yeah, Rob. - Thanks for having me. I didn't realize you - were in the podcast hall of fame. That's - pretty cool. Yeah. I've been I've been in - the podcast space for over ten years now.

2:25 - I I helped stand up the podcast business - at WME along with a number of colleagues - there and produced podcasts at Wheelhouse, won a - Streamy Award for one of them, - help move podcasts into video, and and then, - of course, Patreon podcast is one of our - biggest categories. So love what you're doing and - appreciate your having me. Yeah. Well, thank you. - I appreciate that. And it's... Yeah. It's been - a long, long journey in this podcasting space. - It started from really virtually nothing. I started - on the radio. So so... And then the - podcasting really wasn't much of anything when I - started in 2004. - It didn't have much of my audience at - the time. But it it grew into be - a significant thing, and I built a whole - career around it for the last twenty plus - years. - So I've worked for for, you know, I - used to work for Microsoft. I used to - work for a lot of these, you know, - a lot of the big companies as well - as the smaller companies in the space. And - and so, you know, there's been a, you - know, a long journey here for creators - to find some legitimacy - of sorts - at the, you know, at the government level.

3:22 - I I would imagine there's - aspects of - the creator economy that are are just not - part - of the government infrastructure. - So this is kind of kind of a - new breakthrough of sorts. Isn't it? So so - how do you think about this - choice that - the the SBA made to create a classification? - And why do you think now, and - what do you think the ramifications - of that choice was? - Great questions. So, I mean, I think, you - know, one word I would use to describe - it as historic. Until - this, - recognition, - the only time creators have ever been mentioned - by the US government was - in the treasury department's guidance on who qualifies - for no tax on tips. Yeah. Great, beautiful - bill.

4:10 - So that put us, you know, next to, - servers and code room attendants. And certainly, creators - do... Many creators do take tips, and and - I agree they shouldn't pay tax on them. - But I think anyone - that runs a creator business or is a - creator, that'll lose you? No. No. I'm still - here. - Sorry. The, like, screen changed. Yeah. Yeah. I - did. I have the, powers to switch. Got - it. Got it. Okay. Sorry about that. Okay. - So so anyone that runs a creator business - knows that it is a business, that, you - are an entrepreneur. If you're a creator, you're - producing your content, but you're also distributing it. - You're also figuring out how to monetize it. - You're hiring people, firing people, - investing your own capital a lot of the - times, and trying to figure out how to - make a profit so you can pay your - bills. And so that is running a small - business, and the Small Business Administration - recognized that. And remember, the Small Business Administration - is a a federal agency. Its administrator, Kelly - Loeffler, is part of the cabinet - and reports to the president of The United - States. And so this is a historic recognition - of creators. And I think I think that - is something that this industry needs. There is - still - sort of stigma against content creation. You know, - if you tell your - family or friends, that your job is podcasting, - a lot of times they ask, you know, - what what are you gonna get a real - job? And - and, you know, if nobody asks you that - if you tell them you own a coffee - shop or, - or are, you know, a handyman, - and those are small businesses, and so is - being a content creator. So Yeah. This recognition - by the government, I think, has the potential

5:41 - to really trickle down across the economy, - and across culture to recognize - all of us. There are 27,000,000 creators in - The United States earning some sort of income. - Yeah. There's anywhere from one to 12,000,000 creators, - depending on which study you look at, who - are full time earning as content creators. - And and, you know, there's different ways to - define that. Some of those folks are... You - know, their content is their product. Some of - them are making content to promote some other - offering product, whether it's - services or or physical goods or digital products, - whatever it is. But all of them are - using content to drive their businesses. - And this is one of the fastest growing - categories, one of the fastest growing industries - in America. Pre COVID, small businesses, you know, - registered at a rate of 300 to 350,000 - new businesses per month. Post COVID, that went - up to four hundred fifty to 500,000 new - businesses per month. What changed during COVID? Well, - we all went online. We all started to - watch a podcast. Everyone started making TikTok videos.

6:39 - Everyone started writing newsletters. And and so - the big difference, and I think what is - responsible for that rise, is the rise of - content creators and the creator economy. So this - is huge and it's historic. And it also - more practically means that creators now have access - to a tremendous number of resources - that other small businesses...... Significant - aspect of this, right, is - you're... You know, we're we're now recognized - in a classification that could be used at - banks and, - financial institutions - that really establishes this as a credible - That's right. Business. Right. - Yeah. There's three technical benefits here, - or or practical benefits that creators get from - this recognition. So first, - the SBA issued guidance both to banks and - to creators that creators should be - categorized as small businesses and eligible for SBA - loans - as long as they file under a certain - code. So you've probably seen when you file - taxes or you apply for a bank account - or even form a corporation. Yep. It asks - you for what industry you're in, and usually - that's correlated to a six digit number. That - is the NAICS code, North American Industrial - Classification System. Mhmm. And - and, historically, creators have not had our own - NAICS code. We still don't have our own - NAICS code. However, the SBA has issued guidance - that creators should file - under the five one two one - NAICS code family. So that's a four digit - code. There is several six digit codes under - that family, and that is the motion picture

8:10 - and video industries - family. - And so creators file under that family, and - banks are then, - have guidance to accept creator applications - for SBA loans - when filed under those... Under that code family. - Now SBA loans are - offered - by the SBA through banks. So the SBA - makes about $45,000,000,000 - worth of loans every year through American banks - of all sizes. You know, the big banks, - the, you know, Bank of America's and Wells - Fargo's as well as the smaller regional, micro, - and community banks. - And, - and the way that works is the banks - would usually - look at a small business when deciding whether - to make a loan and say, well, are - they gonna be able to pay this off - easily? Is their revenue high enough? Like, what's - our risk here? And, of course, when making - loans, they've got a pretty high risk threshold.

8:59 - So the SBA says to these banks, we - will backstop those loans. So if this business... - If these small businesses - cannot pay you back, we will pay the - difference. - And so that means that banks and underwriters - are less, risk averse Right. And more willing - to make loans to newer businesses, businesses who - don't have a lot of historical revenue - and and just need, you know, 10,000 to - set up your home studio or 50,000 - to launch a new product line or whatever - it is that you need the loan for. - And so these are loans that are traditionally - used by all kinds of small businesses, you - know, every, - you know, car wash or a lot of, - real estate investors, a lot of Mhmm. You - know, small businesses across America Yeah. Right. Use - SBA loans. But creators have historically not been - eligible... Or rather they've been eligible but not - been able to access them because many banks - have had trouble looking at a creator's application - and saying, oh, I understand what this is.

9:54 - I know where this fits in my system. - I can approve it. And so now with - this new guidance, it'll make it a lot - easier for banks to accept creator. So that's - the first big, big win. The other two - practical benefits are much simpler, I think. One - is, the ability to access government contracting. So, - you know, the, the US government through the - Small Business Administration has a program where small - businesses can apply for government contracts. - Now how... What government contracts creators might apply - for is a different question. I think, as - the government evolves and goes more digital, I - think we'll see more opportunities for creators to, - apply their skills to government needs. But, - the fact that we are now eligible for - that is the first step to that system, - and those opportunities and benefits being created.

10:38 - And, again, that has to, you you know, - those opportunities are through the NAICS code five - one two one family, the motion picture and - video industry family. - And then finally, it appears up on the - screen right right now that the Perfect. This - is a direct quote out out of the - the announcement that came off of the off - the website. So, I mean, they're showing 27,000,000 - led businesses, - that this could impact. Right? Absolutely. And that - leads to a third piece, which is, mentorship. - The Small Business Administration operates - a number of small business development centers locally - in cities across America. Those centers offer, - mentorship programs, events, and and other sort of - benefits for creators who... Or for small businesses - in general who are willing to go and - apply for their programs and ask for mentorship, - etcetera. And now creators can apply for those - those programs as well. And so I think - that's gonna be, an amazing opportunity for creators - to get some business mentorship - as they look to grow their creator businesses.

11:37 - Yeah. I think that's awesome. Well, why don't - you tell us a little bit about the - Creators Guild of America - organization? I had never heard of that organization. - So this is all great news that there - is - an organization like that. - Why don't you tell us a little bit - about that organization of which you're - leading. - Right? Yes. Yeah. So I'm on the leadership - team there. I'm the chair of government advocacy. - The Creators Guild was founded, I think, three - years ago. Today, we have 14,000 - members and affiliates, - so growing fairly quickly. Anyone that's interested can - go to creatorsbuildofamerica.org. - And we are a nonprofit - that supports, protects, and advocates for creators. So - Okay.

12:20 - Advocacy - is my charge, and that is, - going to the government at the federal, state, - local level, wherever applicable, and advocating on behalf - of creators for policies, - that benefit them. This is a great example - and our first big win, - in that space. - And... But we've also have a number of - other benefits and programs as well. So for - example, we have recently launched Mosaic, which is, - you could think of it as, like, IMDB - for creators. - So, you know, you wanna list your podcast - there, - and show all of the different sponsors you've - had. Your sponsors can then come on and - verify that they have indeed sponsored you. Now - any future sponsors, you can direct them to - your CGA - mosaic page, and they can see the verified - partners that you've worked with in the past.

13:05 - So in this world where trust is kind - of, - going down, you know, you never know what's - real. You never know if people are telling - the truth. This is a central verified, - like, you know, two party verification - database for creators to show... Showcase their real - work, - and get more work. We have also launched, - our brand deal writer, which is a a - document that you can attach to brand deals - and sponsorships that provides some minimum number of - protections. For example, you know, you know, ownership - of the content for creators and minimum... Reasonable - payment timelines and those kinds of things. And - we have gotten a number of influencer marketing - agencies, brand agencies, platforms to acknowledge the writer - and accept the writer in their contract negotiations - with our members. So there's just two examples, - alongside the advocacy work, we have been doing - of how the creators guild, you know, supports, - protects, and advocates for creators.

14:00 - How long has the creatorsguildofamerica.org - been operating or around? What's the what's the - history of it? And where has it been - focused on advocating for in the past if - it goes back a ways, or is it - new? It's only about three years old. Mhmm. - So pretty new, but, again, growing very quickly. - We've got about 14,000 members and growing fast. - Our focus to date has been on standing - up Mosaic, launching the brand deal rider. This - win with the SBA, this partnership with the - SBA represents our first foray into government advocacy. - Certainly won't be our last. And I have - to say it was a a - massive collaborative - effort across a coalition of organizations.

14:42 - You know, we had the CGA - efforts, which I led. We had creators for - mental health led by Shira Lazar, who is - also on the Creators Guild's leadership... I'm sorry, - on the advisory board for the Creators Guild. - You know, a number of other colleagues from - the Creators Guild were involved, - and we even had, outside assistance from companies - like TikTok. So this is something that a - lot of people have been talking about. - Efforts around getting creators recognized and getting them - in makes code have been ongoing for years. - I mean, you know, Matthew Patrick of Game - Theorists has been talking about it for several - years now. I know Shira was working on - it for a while, and and a number - of other... Like, YouTube has mentioned to me - that their policy team has been advocating for - it. So I think it's, - likely to be, you know, kind of a - snowball effect of this conversation happening and then, - just being in the right place at the - right time. You know, the way that it - the way that it happened is that - the office of management and budget - happened to be - looking at a new NAICS code policy. They - look at adding or removing NAICS codes every - five years.

15:44 - And and so - this summer... This past summer was when they - were accepting public comment on a new set - of NAICS codes. - And I had been leading a town hall - at VidCon where I'm, on their advisory board - as well. VidCon's, like, the biggest creator convention. - And - in that town hall, we were talking about - areas where we thought the government could support - creators. And the number one thing that people - wanted - was recognition because everything else comes out of - recognition. But being recognized as real businesses, - as real contributors to the economy is kind - of the baseline. - And so, you know, Shira, who is founder - of Creators for Mental Health, was holding an - advocacy day in Washington, DC. She's been doing - advocacy work in DC for years, - and invited me in together. We were able - to put this idea of needing to be - recognized in their own NAICS code in front - of a number of congresspeople, a number of - policy teams, and ultimately in front of the - SBA. And the SBA immediately understood what we - were trying to do.

16:42 - And we're extremely supportive. Excuse me. We ran - two sort of parallel campaigns on one side. - We had a public campaign where we submitted - comments to the Office of Management Budget for - how, - we believe creators should have our own NAICS - code. We still believe that, and a number - of people submitted comments and support. The office - of management budget is still reviewing those comments - and and ultimately will make a decision. And - our hope is that that goes through because - I think creators do deserve our own, - code category, and I can talk about why - that matters in a minute. - Right. But we also collaborated with the SBA - because, ultimately, creators are small businesses. And and - a big reason that we wanted NAICS code - in the first place was to access the - resources that the SBA offered. And the SBA - understood that that creators needed access to those - resources, and they offered alternative routes to to - getting creators access, specifically - allowing creators to file under - the five one two one code - Got it. Within the motion picture industry. And - so that was a great win. We worked - with them for several months to to find - the right way to do this because believe - it or not, there's a lot of technicalities - in the policy around this stuff. You know, - like, NAICS codes aren't just determined by one - country. It's North American industrial classification system. So - Canada has NAICS codes, Mexico has NAICS codes.

18:01 - There's some alignment across various countries. And so - it's not as simple as just calling someone - up and convincing them that they need to - do it. And so we found the right - way to get it done so that creators - can access these benefits, and the SBA has - been extremely, - supportive. And and we're really the ones that - made this happen, so we're very grateful to - them. Yeah. So it's safe to say that - government bureaucracy kind of moves a little slowly. - So - is that kind of what's going on here? - It was easier for them to include - creators - in this current existing classification, - or is this new... A new classification? - And then you're talking about maybe adding some - more specific - classifications at some point in the future. Is - that that kinda how it kinda worked out?

18:49 - Yeah. That's correct. So so - they included us in existing classification - in order to get creators in the door - as soon as possible. Yeah. Exactly. It's easier - to get that done that way. Right? Yes. - Okay. The SBA's goal is to is to - help, - American companies, - small businesses grow. They deploy about $45,000,000,000 - worth of capital every year through their loan - programs. - And, - and so... And creators represent a huge opportunity - for them to deploy even more capital and - help even more American small businesses succeed. So - they understood what we're going for. They were... - We were very aligned on the opportunity here. - And... But, again, there's a lot of technicalities - involved. And so the fastest way to get - something done so that creators could have access - to these resources is to issue guidance that - creators should file under five one two one - and that banks should look at creators on - the five one two one code family. Again, - we still have our comment out to office - of management budget.

19:44 - We still believe that creators deserve - our own - NAICS code. Our hope is that we will - get our own NAICS code once they, review - comments, - in this cycle. And if not, we'll be - back in five years advocating for it yet - again. Oh, it's only every five years that - you can add add more classifications to the - code structure. Is that how it works? That's - correct. Yes. - Okay. - So it's a long, long slog to get - this done. Yes. One reason that we want - our own code is specifically around, measurement. - So, - right now, creators are basically invisible to the - federal government. All these stats that I've been - talking about, you know, 27,000,000 - creators and - making money and 12,800,000 - creators, 11,800,000 - creators full time, These are third party statistics - compiled by third party consultancies, - private research firms, etcetera. They are not government - data. And government data is the best data, - and policymakers prefer to look at government data - to make policy.

20:42 - The problem is - there has been no way to measure - the creator economy because creators don't have our - code. Right? Labor department uses these codes to - identify, - you know, the industry's impacts on, American - labor force. - The IRS uses this, NAICS codes - to parse out, you know, the industry impact - on tax, - revenues. Even census uses the NAICS codes to - count the number of people working in different - industries and how big different industries are. Right? - And so without our own NAICS code, we - are effectively invisible. Now be... Filing under the - five one two one code - may make it easier - to - count some level of impact. I'm sure the - brilliant people at these various departments and the - economists can do some fancy statistics to parse - out, you know, new filers versus old filers - to see some level of creator economy impact.

21:34 - But until we have our own code, we'll - be mixed in with more legacy industries like - film and television. - And so our impact as a stand alone - industry, - which, you know, I think everyone listening to - this would agree that digital content creators are - a stand alone industry separate from radio, film, - TV, etcetera. - Our impact as a stand alone industry will - be extremely difficult to measure until we have - our own NAICS code and the ability for - government data collectors and and data scientists to - to analyze that data. Yeah. So - so if a if a creator uses this - code, - the - the application of it doesn't have to be - doesn't have to be labeled as a podcaster - or as a YouTuber or anything like that.

22:16 - It can just be... There's a company name. - It's associated with that that, - that particular number, that 5121 - number - on your on your business filing - or on your your application - for a loan or something like that, and - that puts it into a a big broad - bucket of sorts. - Correct. And the 512... - Correct. That's correct. Based on the SBA's guidance. - So five one two one is a code - family. I think there's actually four or five - six digit numbers under that family, and so - creators should just look at those - sort of the the different, - numbers within that family and pick the one - that fits them the best. - Yeah. Definitely. So so how does this all - fit into... I I got an email from - Chase Bank just - earlier today saying that there's money to be - captured - in a range of creating loans for small - businesses, ones that had had had any kind - of relation to AI or anything like that.

23:16 - I mean, - is this part of that big beautiful bill - that was signed by - the Trump administration, - or is there any connection between - all these things that that that are happening, - as far as you know, or are they - they separate from each other? - I think the big, beautiful bill is separate - from this guidance. But as I mentioned, the, - Small Business Administration is a federal agency, and - administrator Kelly Loeffler is part of the cabinet. - And so, you know, I would say that - DC in general - is - starting to notice creators and pay attention. I - think there's been a lot of conversation about - how - podcasts past... - Podcasters especially, - video creators and content creators in general Right.

23:58 - Had a big impact in the last election - or having a big impact in this election. - And and I think everyone expects them to - continue to. And so I think there's also - starting to be an understanding that creators are - the new media ecosystem. - And Mhmm. And my goal is to continue - to educate Yeah. Our lawmakers - on both sides of the aisle about how - creators aren't just a media ecosystem. We are - a new - small business economy in America. - Mhmm. Companies of all sizes are creating content, - but companies... Small businesses of all sizes are - also either launching as content creators or becoming - content creators. And not just, you know, to - have content as the product, but, you know, - for example, one of the best bars in - America listed on the 50 best bars, bar - called Schmuck in New York, they...

24:44 - Well before the bar opened, they launched - through their founders' Instagram accounts. They're promoting the - different cocktails they were gonna make and the - space that they're setting up and design. And - and so their their founders were - creators, and, - they're creators who happen to open a bar. - And now that bar is one of the... - You know, listed as one of the best - in North America. - And I think we're gonna see that trend - only grow. Right? We're seeing it a lot - already on places like LinkedIn, in podcasting, and - newsletters where, you know, people are, - leaving their jobs or getting laid off - and starting their own businesses, offering their own - freelance services, - starting agencies, that kind of thing using the, - you know, expertise they've built up over, you - know, ten, twenty year careers. And instead of, - you know, sending out flyers or mailers like - you used to twenty years ago, now they're - making content on LinkedIn or starting a newsletter - and sending it to their connections because that's - kind of the new customer acquisition channel that - is low cost, high impact.

25:46 - Yeah. Yeah. It's all part of this - liquid content era that's being - defined out there that can include a lot - of different types of, you know, media content - of sorts. - Have you heard any any interest that's being - expressed by the FCC - because of all this, or is it not - reached that level where that there could potentially - be some more - involvement of the FCC in, online - and creator content? I'm just curious if you - have any thoughts on that. - We have not... - There isn't anything I can share about the - FCC's involvement in any of this. Yeah. But - I will say that, you know, every government - agency that touches this space, FCC, FTC, - etcetera, are all looking at it and thinking - about it now. More of them... More and - more of them are starting to think about - it, - because it is becoming a bigger and bigger - part of - the broader economy.

26:37 - Yeah. And as the larger media companies, - shift towards doing more in the creator economy, - actually, these these worlds are converging on each - other, aren't they? So, you know, you know, - these new classifications, - though, it sounds like they're potentially not gonna - be here for another five years potentially. - Or was there a cutoff, - you know, like, two years ago or something - like that that, you guys applied for? Or, - you know this was all over the summer. - So it's still Oh, okay. It was just - past They haven't announced any, you know, they - haven't announced the new codes or whether they've - accepted or denied our our comments. So there's - still hope there. Okay. And the SBA has - been supportive of that effort as well.

27:19 - You know, this this code, - system right now is a stopgap, and hopefully, - we will be able to give creators their - own codes in the future. - So how did you guys go about advocating - for this? I mean, - did you have to go talk to members - of congress? Did you just talk to the - administrators of the SBA? Or - what was the advocacy - or the lobbying effort that went into - doing this? I'm I'm just curious about the - infrastructure that you're involved in and how it - all works. Yeah. So, we talked to everybody - we could. As I mentioned, Sheryl Azar put - together a creator day of advocacy. I was - there representing the Creators Guild, - and we - we spoke to private companies and their policy - teams. We spoke - to industry organizations like NAB.

28:05 - Okay. Yeah. We did speak to members of - congress. As you'll know, there's a there's a - congressional creator caucus. They just announced the senate - creator caucus. I think Scheer was involved in - both of those. You know, we we met - with, you know, Republican congresswoman Beth Van Dyne, - who is the Republican chair of the creator - caucus. We met with Democratic congressman Ro Khanna, - who is the Democratic chair of the creator - caucus. So - we - were we were definitely speaking to congresspeople, and - then we also met with folks from different - federal agencies. And the SBA, - you know, we met with their head of - comms, Michael Joyce, and he was immediately very - supportive. - He brought it back to their team, brought - it back to administrator Loeffler. - She was very supportive. I think she really - appreciates and understands creators and the creator economy.

28:46 - I mean, if you look at her Instagram, - she is something of a content creator herself. - She interviews small businesses and, - does collabs with creators and really kinda gets - what is happening right now and is and - is actively part of it. And so she - understood what we're doing and was supportive of - the effort. And so then it was just - about figuring out what policy would work. And - so we were throwing policies back and forth. - On their side, they were checking - internally and across different agencies what was possible, - what was not, - technically. And, ultimately, - we landed on on this this outcome, which - is an amazing outcome. Recognition of creators, - access to SBA loans, access to federal contracts, - access - to SBA mentorship. I mean, you know, - what an amazing first achievement - for creators in in DC.

29:33 - Yeah. Shearer is gonna be on the show - in a couple of weeks, so she couldn't - join us tonight, but, but you know, I'll - get her thoughts too. I've known, - share for many, many years. Yeah. She's an, - she's an OG in the space for sure. - Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. She's been around the - podcasting space since the early days of it. - But, - yeah, this is a very interesting time for - the emergence - of the importance of, - the online media space. I mean, it's been - a long time coming. I mean, it's not - like podcasting is a new medium here or - even YouTube. - Both podcasting and YouTube have had a very - similar timeline - of - activation. It's just taken this long - really to get the... Get... Reach the level - where it was taken seriously by - by the government and by, you know, - policymakers.

30:22 - And it's... Well, that's that's happening now. It's... - I mean, it's interesting to me that it's - happening now. I've been in this medium a - long time. Yeah. Well, I think it had - to be taken seriously by the media ecosystem - first. Right? Like, I remember when I was - building Or a person like yourself actually going - in there and advocating for it. I'm not - sure that there was anybody doing that prior. - That's true. That's true. I mean, you know, - I... I've been in the podcast space for - more than a decade, and and - I remember vividly, - you know, I was hired to build a - a a digital media business for a company, - and one of the executives at that company - had come from - a major studio. - I can't remember which one, like n... NBC - or Yeah. Universal or something. You know, something - like that. And, - and he was, like, a... The president, high, - high level exec - at at the studio and, - you know, MBA type. And so - I presented the strategy. Part of the strategy - was we're gonna partner with top creators. We're - gonna launch their podcasts, and we're gonna co - monetize that with them. And this is in - 2019. And he said to me, he's like, - why would we include podcasts in this? The - entire podcast industry is less than $1,000,000,000.

31:27 - We're... We can't make any money this way. - And, you know, my response was, it might - be that way now, but it will not - be that way in the next few years. - And - a few months later, - Spotify announced the Joe Rogan deal. - The, you know, the the podcast ecosystem exploded. - Deals are flying everywhere. Advertisers coming in. COVID - happened. - More people became podcasters. More creators became podcasters. - Celebrities become podcasters. Brands start advertising in the - space in a much bigger way. And now - the podcast ecosystem is many billions of dollars - and and growing quickly. And so - I think, - you know, I guess I was right. But - I think that had to happen. Because if - if someone coming from - the traditional media ecosystem looked at the space - and said, this isn't real. Why are we - paying attention? Of course, you know, DC is - gonna look at and say, why would we - pay attention to this? Right? And so today, - every Hollywood - company has podcast business, a digital media business.

32:24 - They're all trying to figure out how do - they make more money on YouTube - because their traditional ecosystem selling the television, - films, those are all all shrinking. - And they're watching YouTube, for example, eat their - market share. Right? YouTube just, - you know, revealed by, Nielsen to be more - than twice as much - of TV screen time - Mhmm. - As Netflix. And so this whole ecosystem has - completely shifted, - and now Hollywood has figured it out. And - so now that the now that the the - gatekeepers - and the bigwigs - and the the big money billion dollar companies - are starting to get worried and and start - to look at how can they get more - involved in this space, of course, DC will - follow them. Yeah. Well, I think that... I - mean, a lot of the larger media companies, - should be a little worried about this. This - is a big shift in audience consumption of - content.

33:18 - And, yeah, I would love to shift to - talking more about the creator economy too and - how that... How you see this change impacting - that. It... As we look to the future - in the next, you know, five years. So - how do you see things being different even - in five years, which is a long time - in the online creator space, really, where this - specific code would have a big impact? And - is there some... You know, what's the fallout - from that? I mean, what other aspects of - government involvement do you see potentially happening with, - you know, recognition - by - the legislature - and - Congress - and the Senate and the president and all - these actually recognizing the creator economy is something - that's impactful. Is that gonna bring more regulation?

34:06 - Is it gonna bring more - other things too is what I'm curious about? - Yeah. It's a great question. Yeah. At the - CGA, we believe that creators are the future - of work. - So, you know, big picture, I'm sure everybody - kind of understands, like, you know, the job - market is shrinking. Right? Despite the the way - economists describe our unemployment rate around 4%, - You know, if you look at functional unemployment - Yeah. I think it's a little higher than - that. Much higher. Right? So functional unemployment, you - know, for those that don't know, includes people - who have given up. And so - Right. They're not counted in unemployment, which is - crazy to me. So we put them back - into the numbers, but it also includes people - who are - making less than a poverty wage. So people - who are... Underemployed - or they're only paying for the time. You - know, the folks that work for Amazon that - are on food stamps or people who are - working full time jobs and living in their - cars, - which there's a lot of them here in - LA.

35:01 - Mhmm. Or people who are... All up and - down the West Coast. All up and down - the West Coast. Right. Gig workers who are - only working part time. And, you know, if - you're not able to pay the bills, then - you shouldn't count as fully employed. That is... - That doesn't make any sense. Right? So if - you if you add those people back in, - suddenly the unemployment rate is around 25% - and growing. That's the functional unemployment rate in - The US. And so what we're seeing is - an explosion in self employment, - largely driven by content. People are becoming content - creators, - and they're using their content to drive these - small businesses where they're selling services, - they're selling, - digital products, they're selling membership and community, - whatever they can do to make money. And - we see this only growing and only expanding.

35:44 - So this is the future of work. Yeah. - And even it's AI based businesses too are - are key to us. And that was part - of that that email that I got from - Chase Bank - was that there is a push towards - trying to support, - AI - businesses, - small businesses as well. And a lot of - the times, those things kinda go together. The - creator side goes together with the creator side. - I know that's my business. I'm in the - AI stuff as well as in - content creation. So, you know, these things can - come together and it's gonna create a much - different future, - than Yes. Absolutely. The kind of thing that - we have had. Yeah. AI is great for - people who are running their own businesses and - terrible for people who are working for a - business.

36:27 - Yeah. Well... I mean, that's just the truth. - But, you know, you look at, like like, - jobs are a fairly new concept. Right? Before - the industrial revolution, people really didn't have jobs. - You were... Everyone was an entrepreneur or you - worked for a small business. Right? There weren't - big corporations. You know, the largest organizations people - worked for were governments. - You know, you might be a farmer, a - blacksmith, or a cobbler, whatever. Maybe you worked - for the farmer, the blacks with the cobble. - You had these apprentice systems and guilds and - all that. - And, - and then the industrial revolution happened. - Production - was able to scale massively and thus required - humans - to scale massively. - And and then, you know, we we got - all these giant corporations, but technology has kinda - come full circle - and is making it possible for, - a very small number of people to scale - production in a very big way. And that - is only gonna continue. Right? Factories - eventually... Like, you know, there are factories that - can output thousands of units of product a - day with, like, three or four people on - the factory floor. And soon, that'll... There'll be - zero. Right? In China, there are a bunch - that have zero. Yeah. And - and and so, you know, it's not just - digital - product that this is affecting. It's also gonna - affect physical products as well. And so, you - know, that is bad if you were working - for the factory, but it's good if you - have an idea for a product that you - wanna sell.

37:46 - And what I think is so great about - this opportunity now for creators to access these - SBA loans is that it's gonna make it - possible for creators to - launch - new businesses - in - more physical and capital intensive industries. Right? You - know, like, a lot of creators right now, - they're launching businesses, - selling products or services. They're largely online. They're - largely virtual - goods, digital products, - services delivered online. - And some of them are starting to do - things like IRL events. - You know, there are a few here and - there, like, that bar I mentioned are doing, - you know, retail locations, physical locations. - I think that is going to grow tremendously. - Right? I work out of a co working - space for creators in, here in LA, and - and almost every creator, - I talked to there is working on some - sort of product. Right? But that costs money.

38:35 - It costs money to do the product development. - It costs money to to buy the samples. - It costs money to, buy the inventory. And - so... Excuse me. And and if you're a - creator that wants to open a bar or - launch a coffee shop, a retail space, whatever - it is, that also costs money. You gotta - be able to pay the down payment. You - gotta be able to pay the rent for - months on end before you open. You gotta - be able to buy all the stuff you - need to put in there. So all these - businesses - are much more capital intensive than digital - businesses - have been Yeah. In for the last few - decades. And need need capital to build out - And these products and services. Yeah. Exactly. And - it's been very hard to get access to - capital - for creators historically, and that is about to - change in a big way. And so now - you can imagine, like, - you know, there's, for example, like, a creator - I follow that reviews, you know, junk food - in LA and, - you know, makes it look like he buys - a big, delicious looking quesadilla and shows it - all dripping cheese and eats it and gets - tons of views in the area. And then, - you know, the places he goes - get a big spike in business in the - following days. Right? You can see a guy - like that launching his own, you know, burger - stand or taco stand or whatever. Right? And - and it's gonna become a lot easier for - him to do that now. And so Yeah.

39:48 - I think over the next five years, we're - gonna see an explosion - in creator businesses - that are selling physical goods, - driving people to retail and physical and IRL - in real life locations. - And And you're gonna see creators really integrating - much more with the broader - small business economy and the broader economy in - general. And I think access to capital is - gonna be a big linchpin in that. Yeah. - And I think one kind of merging platform... - You know, I think there's two of them. - It's the the TikTok - shop and a platform called Whatnot. I don't - know if you're familiar with Yep. That one, - but it's where it's merging these concepts together. - You're a digital - video creator at the same time you're building - an ecommerce business, - at the same time, and you're able to, - you know, almost like a shopping channel type - of a platform - is what it is. And it's converging all - these things together. Yes. But what's interesting in - those is those categories is, - you know, with both of them, the creator - doesn't own the product. The creator doesn't own - the brand. Right? It's a... Another company that - is not a creator - that has made the products, that has marketed - the products, that is paying the creator - a rev share or a fee to market - that product. Well, that's not always the case.

41:00 - There's people that are creating products live on - these streams - and selling them. It could be art. It - could be Yes. Print Those are one off - products. Right? Those are one off products. Those - are like artistic creations. Yeah. No doubt that - is certainly the case. What I think is - interesting here is there are people who are - not creators - generating massive equity value from the work of - creators. Right? So right. If you make a - supplement brand and then you put it on - TikTok shop, you get a bunch of creators - to sell it for you. The creators are - making cash from what they sell, - but every dollar they make is actually worth - $5 - to somebody who buys that company. And the - creators aren't gonna get that. You're gonna get - that. Right? And so - what this will enable is creators to - start that cell phone business themselves, - disintermediate - the noncreators that are - making these products and ultimately accruing all of - the equity value. And so now these creators - who are gonna be launching these products through - capital that they're getting from the SBA - and probably other organizations and other capital opportunities - as well. Right? Like, this this is gonna - stimulate the whole market.

42:03 - They are gonna be able to build equity - value in a much bigger way. And I - think that is... That's been one of the - benefits of starting a small business. Right? It's - like you run your small business, and eventually, - you sell your small business. And that's been - very hard to do as a creator because - someone else is accruing the equity value for - a lot of the work that you do. - I think that's about to change. Yeah. I - think a lot of... In the early years, - the online content space, it was really a, - like, a free resource to these larger companies. - You know, podcasting in the early years was, - you know, was almost like a hobby business - of sorts, and people were publishing content into - these platforms just because they were trying to - reach people. It wasn't like they were trying - to build a business around it in the - early years - of the creator economy. And so we've seen - a a shift towards these media creators creating - real businesses around their - their content. And - that's the real big shift that's happened. And - you've probably seen it in your experience over - the years being in this medium too where - in the early years, people weren't really worried - about making money from doing online content. It - was more about reach and - and trying to build a community maybe to - some degree, but it was really just about - one way communication of sorts.

43:15 - And... But now we're in a completely different - area... Era. It's an interactive. - It's - it's trying - to create a business around all sorts of - aspects. - And I agree with, you know, what's happening - here, and I agree with what you're doing. - And I think that this is a a - very practical - kind of result of what we're seeing happen - in the market. And, you know, we're transforming - this whole economy into something that's that's new, - but, hopefully, it actually - takes us back to real world kind of - business activities too. And I think that's also - what you're saying here, too. So in a - lot of ways, we're kind of reinventing - the economy of sorts here. I don't know. - Is that - aligned with your thoughts, too? Yeah. I love - how you put it. We're reinventing the economy.

43:58 - I always say the creator economy is becoming - the economy, right? - Are becoming creators, we're seeing a push from - big companies for employees to start creating content - on the company's behalf. - Executives and founders are becoming creators. - You know, I mean, remember recently, like, the - McDonald's CEO went viral posting a video eating - a burger, and lots of companies are trying - to copy that even beyond just the social - media team's work, which many companies are investing - more and more heavily in. And so, you - know, we're seeing at the big company level, - the creator economy and the economy emerging. And, - of course, at the small business level, - this has been happening for years now and - is only accelerating. And and this recognition by - the SBA is a big sign that that's - gonna keep going. Yeah. Because, I mean, this - number that even was on the SBA's website - of 27,000,000 - creator led businesses.

44:48 - I mean, what's the percentage of of businesses - in the whole United States? - You know, - as it compares to - just the creator businesses, is it 20%, - 30% of the total - amount of businesses in the whole country? I - I kind of wonder what the answer to - that question is. That's a great question. I - actually don't know that off the top of - my head. I... If I remember correctly, it - is somewhere between 1020%. - But don't quote me on that. That's actually - a huge that's a huge chunk of It's - a huge chunk. It's a huge Yeah. - And a lot of those a lot of - those businesses aren't registered. - They aren't... You know, it's in... It's solo - practitioners. - Yeah. They don't have access to resources. They've - never even thought of it as a business.

45:30 - And so now I think that, you - know, our goal at the CGA - is not just to win these these - opportunities for creators, but to then educate creators - on how they can take advantage of them. - You know, we just launched - SBA one zero one mini course for free - on the Creators Guild site so you can - learn exactly what to do in order to - take advantage of these benefits. We have an - FTC one zero one course where you can - learn how to make sure you don't get - sued doing brand partnerships and you're disclosing probably - and all that. And we do a lot - more education - work as well so that our members and - creators more broadly - can understand - that they're running a business, how to do - it properly, and and how - to be buttoned up about it. Yeah. Well, - there's - there's creators that are out there that are - teaching other creators - how to go about this, you know, from - an accounting standpoint, - finance - to, you know, creator lawyers of sorts that - are out there doing shows and and helping - educate other content creators that maybe haven't... Like - like you said, they're maybe like a sole - proprietor or something like that, and they're not - organized under an LLC. And so helping them - understand - and and maybe - getting an accountant or working with, you know, - some some sort of online accounting.

46:46 - Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm one of those - creators. You know? I Right. My my business - is called Creator Access Network. - I do a newsletter every week where I - interview creators who have under a 100,000 - followers, but make over a $100,000 - about how they do it. So our newsletter, - subscribers can kinda learn from these people that - are making outsized revenue - based on their audience size. And then we - even have a membership where creators can get - discounts on different tools and services. Right? Everything - from, you know, recording software to - accountants and lawyers to - course and membership platforms. - And so, you know, like, I'm one of - these... I call them meta creators. - You know, creators talking about the business of - content creation. Yeah.

47:27 - Because I'm like that. Billions of people. You - absolutely are. This... They... You absolutely are. Yep. - Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting, - time, and I think... I don't know if - you have any advice for creators out there - if they should contact their local SBA office - and establish, you know, you know, contact with - them. Is there a way for creators to - create an account with the SBA or whatever - and kinda get into the ecosystem? And should - they do that at this point, you think? - Yeah. I think the easiest thing they can - do right now is go to the Creators - Guild website and take the SBA one zero - one course because that lays out everything you - can do, - how to get in touch with the SBDCs, - which is the small business development centers, - how to - apply for - your SBA loans, all of that. So that's - creator... Creators guild of america dot org. Yeah.

48:17 - I thought I had that here up. - Yeah. Okay. It's added there? No. It's not. - No. This is the, the the press release. - It might be in menu. - Yeah. - Okay. Yeah. This is the homepage of it - here. Right? So you got...... See if I - can pull it up for you. Got a - you got a menu there. - It looks like that you can join the - guild - right here. So you just, sign up. - Just put your name in there - and create an account. And I think you're - all set on that. And then it has - a bunch of, you know, supporting information in - here too. Like, it's foundation, the benefits, - partners - that are in here as well. I'm sure - that you're still - building out the site or but... Hang on.

49:02 - Let me, I'll just pull up a link - to that. Hang on one sec. Okay. I - could just find it for you. It's in - my email somewhere here. - So, yeah, I think it's, - great, and I think that more creators - need to be involved in the the guild. - And We got it. I'm just curious, you - know, what that process is and how that - works and - what's involved with it. And then, obviously, the - SBA is kinda like the next one to - be able to - opt in and get listed in the in - the, - the SBA's website and maybe get access to - some resources there? - Yeah. So if you go to, if you - wanna pull it back up, it's under certification.

49:43 - So if you go to the Creators Guild - homepage, - there's a a benefits tab. And in that - tab, there's certifications. - In the benefits tab. Let's see. Let's go - in here. Okay. Right right here. - Okay. - Alright. So I've got them Certifications - right there. - Yeah. And so you click the certifications - button there. Oh, down here. Down here. Right. - Yeah. There we go. And there you go. - SBA one zero one. Got it. Oh, okay. - Yep. Okay. So you can apply. - So that takes you down the path of - getting connected to the SBA. Right? Yes. And - then the and then the one below that - is the get... That's that's... - Yeah. Getting credits in, in MOSAIC so that - you can, show verified, - work, - and partners to any future partners that you're - in discussions with.

50:33 - Oh, okay. And then there's a members only - content in here. It looks like that gets - unlocked - once you get involved. Is there - a a cost for membership at this point? - Is... - Yes. So our affiliates are free. You know, - you sign up with your email, - and, you become an affiliate and, - you get our newsletter, get access to a - bunch of our resources. - And then our membership is $99 a year. - Oh, okay. Okay. Well, that's good to know. - Yeah. So... - And, I believe that... - I will just plug this, you know, my - my membership creator access network costs $49 a - year, and you get a year free of - CJA membership. So, - pays for itself.

51:14 - Sure. Sure. And I'm assuming that the SBA - is, - probably a free registration - of sorts. And Yes. I mean, that is - all basically. - You're not necessarily applying. You're not registering with - the SBA, - so much as, you know, if you want - a loan, you go to a bank that - offers an SBA loan, and the SBA will - backstop it. The SBDCs, - those you find your local one and and - reach out to them. And there's, I mean, - there's more details in the course, but it's - basically what is available around you. But you're - not necessarily signing up for, like, an SBA - program per se. - Yeah. Yeah. I just know that there's SBA - offices here in Connecticut. And Yes. Those are - the SBA offices. Person can go in and - talk to a counselor or whatever. It's usually - And creators now have access to that. Exactly.

52:01 - Yeah. That that... Those are the small business - development centers. And so those are, I think, - in every state. - I could be wrong about that, but, are - in the major metros. - And, - and creators now have access to those as - well. So all the details are on the - on the site there. So what would you - say would be the advantage for a creator - in - actually getting involved in the SBA and taking - advantage of those resources? Is it the counseling - part of it? Is it the - the assistance - part of it? - You know, that takes them down the path - of getting more support? - I think every creator is different. Right? I - think, - if you have never run a business before - and and you want Sure. Help and counseling - on how to do that, then I certainly - think that the small business development center mentorship - is hugely valuable. And then for some creators, - it's gonna be the access to capital if - that's, something they need in order to realize - their vision for their creator business. So every - every creator is gonna be different, - but I think, - the beauty of this is that there are - now resources available to most every creator. Yeah.

53:00 - It's great to see that, - that there are available resources now that maybe - weren't there before. And if there's - ways that, you know, a creator that has - a great idea and it seems to be - building a growing platform. And that that... That's - the other thing that is happening right now - too is that - AI is enabling people to build whole platforms - in - a individual business now. Right? So, I mean, - I know I'm I'm building, like, five different - websites that are complete platforms. - They're not just a web web page. There's... - It's all back end, you know, access and - business processes and all sorts of stuff that - AI can help you with now. So you - can build a real business now as a - single - business person, but you do you do need - to have some skills - or some experience with these tools to be - able to make them work. But but... And - that's just, you know, part of being a - creator. You know? That's exactly what I'm going - through. You know? Being a a long time - creator, but also building businesses too, - is, - it's not for the faint of heart either, - is it? Definitely definitely not. Definitely not. I - mean, that's why I think it's so important - that we are acknowledged for what we're doing.

54:11 - Right? Like, everyone knows that it's hard to - be a small business owner. - Yeah. And there's this... And a creator on - top of that too. That's... Right. Well, I - I think there's this perception that being a - creator is easy. You just, you know, snap - a few pictures and Yeah. You just make - it money. You just talk into a camera. - Big deal. Right? Yeah. Right. The reality is - you're running a small business. And, and it's - as hard as it is for anyone running - a small business. So I'm very happy that - we've been recognized for that. Yeah. I am - too. I'm excited to to explore it myself - and see what the opportunities might be. I - get approached by, - you know, kinda like, - family office type of investment - companies and stuff all the time about, well, - you know, are you doing something that, you - know, you know, it's worth, you know, possibly - investing $5,000,000 - in? And I'm like going, no. I'm not - quite at that level. And it's like... But - there's programs that are... That span that whole - spectrum, right, of of where you are as - a creator and as a small business person - to boost you if you have a good - idea.

55:11 - And you've you've created a legitimate business structure. - And I think that's also an important part - of this too - is having that knowledge to know, you know, - when you need to create an LLC versus - an s corp or, - you know, a corporation - or what's your legal structure and what's your, - you know, - lots of lots of things to consider, - on this too and be able to track - your expenses and be able to file your - tax returns and be able to, - you know, do all the things that go - into having a business. I I think a - lot of creators have been skirting along for - a long time not having to do those - things. - Yep. Yep. And probably many of them will - continue to, and that's okay. I think for - the ones who are thinking about building - a bigger and more serious business, they're gonna - have to learn all of that stuff. I - think the mentorship here will be helpful. Yeah.

56:02 - And I think that's the nuance here too - is that if you're just getting started doing - some stuff, you know, you're creating some, - you know, some - shorts or whatever on your iPhone or on - your Android device, and you're just posting them - to Instagram or something like that. You're not - really in the creator business yet. And to - rush out and create a whole LLC corporation - or something like that just because you're posting - to to these platforms. - Probably a little premature. - Yeah. So I don't want to encourage people - to go crazy on this. I think it's - more to do with, - when it looks like you are starting to - bring in - some revenue and there's certainly - no - issue with starting out as a sole proprietor - and start keeping track of your expenses. And - if you bring in a little bit of - income, - then you just report on your taxes and - it's taken care of. But once you start - moving into a, you know, a higher level - of income and things like that, - it and it's also about risk mitigation, too.

57:05 - You know, you start taking money for sure. - Right. You start taking money from sponsors - and investors and things like that. There's - liability that starts cropping up and having an - LLC. That's the biggest reason for any creator - to have an LLC, especially even small ones - is just to protect themselves. Like, if you're - making any money at all, I think it's - worth having an LLC just to protect yourself - from any sort of legal liability because liability - is everywhere. Right? I'm not a lawyer. This - is not legal advice. Oh, it's good.... You - know? - But, you know, a sponsor could sue you - or, like, you could be filming someone and - they fall down and they sue you. And, - you know, there's all kinds of things. And - if you don't have an LLC, they're gonna - come for your house, for your bank account, - for your Robinhood portfolio, etcetera. So having the - LLC and a business bank account provides, like, - a - a good firewall between your personal liability and - Yeah. Your business. Well, it doesn't mean that - you you can just go off and just - do whatever you wanna do. You still have - a responsible - business. Right? Just just because I've got this - LLC, it's protecting me from - anything that I might do. It... They can - actually... They can pierce you.

58:12 - Exactly. They can still see if you're if - you're bad enough, they definitely. - Yeah. Yeah. If it's negligence or fraud or - something like that, I don't think it protects - you from activities like that, but it's more - to do with, you know, just normal business - activities that, people can get into trouble with. - And, - that's, - you know, that's why it's really important that - once you start bringing in some significant revenue - on what you're doing, - you probably need to get registered pretty quick. - But up to that point, if you're not - bringing in any income and you're not really - doing any services to people that would put - you in a potential - liability situation, - then you probably don't have to register. But, - you know, I think that it's just being - responsible. Right? I think at the end of - the day. Right. Totally agree. So, yeah. So, - well, Avi, it was great to have you - on the, - on the new media show to talk about - this. So I think we've talked about where - to go. So here's up on the screen - again. It's the creatorsguildofamerica.org.

59:13 - And go there too. And I'm sure if - you go to the SBA - website, they have some information up there. If - not, I'm sure you can go to that - new website, - that's out there, the government. Was it americadot, - ai or something like that? - I think the easiest thing to do is - creatorsbuildofamerica.org, - and then you can go to the benefits - tab, certifications, and then there's an SBA one - zero one. Right. It's all linked from there. - Right? Yep. So... Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, that - that sounds - sounds terrific. - I'll be... It was great. And I'll get - more filled in with Shiro when she's on - in a couple weeks, - on this too. So if there's any additional - news, I'm sure she can she can share - that with me. But Amazing. Thank you for - having me, Rob. This was great. And, congrats - on your success and keep doing what you - do. Thank you. Well, thank you. And congrats - to you too. And keep doing everything that - you can do. And if I can be - of any help or assistance, I would I - would love to help on this because I - think it's important. So... I love that, and - I may take you up on it. Okay.

1:00:12 - Awesome. Alright. - Alright. Thank you. Oh, I think we got - maybe a couple of questions here. Let's see. - Oh, we do. Let's see. - Dave Canyon wrote here. - Let let me see if I can, - there's also - tax avoidance - and not tax - evasion. - Oh, yeah. Right. - It's a huge difference, - and we all could use that tax avoidance. - Well, it's it's thinking ahead about what you're - doing to to some degree - can help avoid - taxes. - But, you know, sometimes it's hard to avoid. - That's all I can say. So, - Dave, - thank you for the comment here. So we're - gonna call it a night tonight, and thank - you so much. If you wanna see more - of the new media show, - go to newmediashow.com.

1:01:02 - There's lots of archives. I've got 693 - episodes in there and a lot of more - recent episodes that are covering - the the latest topics and the latest trends - in the in the new media space. And - that includes podcasting and YouTube and other stuff - to being a content creator. So good night, - everybody. Thanks, Rob. Thank you.