Can Creators Still Build Trust in the AI Era? | Yuri Kleban, Google #694

0:00 Hi. Well, welcome to the New Media Show. The question and the topic tonight is, can creators still build trust in the AI era that we're in right now? And I know I talk about AI a lot on this show, and we're gonna continue to do that, but there's gonna be a l- a little bit of a twist here, 'cause if AI can make a message sound more personal, which it will at some point, I think, uh, it's gonna be hard to distinguish between AI content and, real human content at some point. Hopefully, if the humans get good enough to compete and video will look polished. And what earns a creator real trust from its audience is the big question.

0:42 I'm, I'm Rob Greenlee, and really the big question is, as content becomes easier to produce, what makes a creator worth trusting, following and supporting? So AI and human expertise, credible relationships, and a possible future for fan-created shows is what I wanna talk about too. So and then we'll also finish with a practical creator action at the end. So stay with me, and let's get into it. Welcome to the New Media Show with human host and podcast hall-of-famer, Rob Greenlee.

1:33 Well, thank you for being here. I wanted to just mention here before I bring up my guest, uh, Yuri Kleban who's gonna join me, but I wanted to mention that there's some new things on the newmediashow.com website, and one is a show supporter a membership area, and it's offering in-show visibility, mentions, and focused consulting with me bundled together, and it is now open at newmediashow.com/support, with, uh, various, , membership levels, and I also have a newsletter in there too. So, so go check it out.

2:13 Go to, um… Let me pull it up on the screen here. Uh, this is where it's at, if you wanted to go check it out, and then also check out the new website at newmediashow.com. I've been working r- really, really hard to build an entire platform with that, um, w- with that website that offers a lot of deeper content, as well as, uh, this whole membership area that I'm trying to launch. So everybody's into monetization now. So this show has been around for most of its life, uh, without any kind of advertising or monetization or what- whatever, and, and so it just feels like if I'm gonna keep up with the trends, I've gotta offer something in here that actually shows that I'm keeping up with what everybody's interested in now, and that's monetizing their, their show.

3:01 So let's get into the show. I've got a terrific guest with me. I'm gonna pull him up on the stage here, and, uh, his name is Yuri Kleban, and he's the Global Product Lead Manager in the partnerships area at, uh, at Google, and his background spans product, cloud, advertising, partnerships, and his posts explore AI, human work, and relationships. Yuri, it's great to have you on the, on the New Media Show. Hey, thanks so much for having me. This is exciting. I'm gonna, I try to… You know, I know you're supposed to ask me questions, but I probably have too many questions to ask you already. Oh, no, this is a… Th- this show's a total conversation.

3:43 It's not a, it's not a one-way pathway for the, the, the topics here. But I do wanna ask you, just to kinda get started here, is what has changed your own thinking most about AI and, uh, and humans and people at this point? I mean, that's a great question. I remember, again, my background being at Google, you're kind of at the belly of the beast, and, in my organization we work with a lot of the execs in Alphabet, so- Yeah I get to hear a lot, so I'm not gonna reveal anything, sorry audience- It's okay … but everything you're hearing, you could find this. But you- Most people remember the moment, you know, they, they tried ChatGPT, and I think there was like a, a two-way street that happened, if you remember. Like, they were kinda like, "Oh wow, this is amazing.

4:26 It's not perfect right now, but I know where this is going," right? Like, people right away could tell where this is going, where AI is gonna do. And then I remember other people are like, "Yeah, this is like a, like a hacky thing, you know? Like, who cares? What, what's gonna happen?" And so I think what changed right away is we went from everyone having their own doors to now, like, talk to anybody, they'll say, "Oh no, AI," like, whether they like it or not, like it's affecting or there's… It is doing something. So people have heard about it. It's famous. And so it's… What's the best way to put it? We let it out of the, the genie box or the lamp, and it's theref- it's all around us. And so I think, and we'll get to the good, the bad and the ugly and the, and the nice, but my point is that- I, what has changed is like it, it has augmented the way we work.

5:15 Like my work at Google, my work outside- Mm-hmm … with startups, my family, I have three young children, so like using AI to help my productivity. It has changed it so much that I cannot go back. The, the way I like to tell people is I know Rob you're too young to remember this, but back in the day we were on 56K modem, which is the slow internet, the dial-up. Uh, this was my era. And then you got the DSL and the high speed, and you're like, "I am never going back to that slow world." And I think that's what AI has done for most people. Forget… Again, without the risks, like most people who are just using it for their entertainment, for work, they just like are clearly seeing this is the future. They already are, and you kind of, you can't take it away from them.

5:58 Does that make sense? Yeah, I can, I can kind of have the, this analogy. Here, let me put up a different, uh, screen here. Hang on here. Okay. Yeah, I've got an electric car. I drive a Tesla, and it's got the full self-driving software, and that's built on AI and, and it's, um, it's one of those things I was watching a YouTube v- video here and people were saying, "W- once you've had one of these cars and you've had full self-driving, you really can't go back." That's right. And that's kind of, that's a good analogy for what's happening with AI right now. I think a lot of people that are fully engaged with it can really see the value of it and… But it is also I've learned that it's very human directed currently right now.

6:45 And that's not to say that it will always be 100% human directed because I can I can sense that it's wanting to, you know, take over more and take more off my plate and things like that. It's actively prompting me to, to enable it to take on more, right? And it's an interesting kind of direction that it, it pushes you towards, and it doesn't push you towards less work. It actually as a human it pushes you towards more work, uh, is my experience with it. Yeah. 'Cause I get really kind of, you know- Your ambitions get really high for what you can do and that drives you into engaging with it more and working with it more.

7:26 And I can see where the, the usage of AI is just gonna explode because people are g- gonna feel empowered by this thing. But really, I think to kind of dovetail on what you were just talking about is, you know, what earns human trust out there, though, as we move into this era of AI doing more for us? And th- this is the big goal that I have with the Trust Factor Lab that I'm working on is, is trying to identify what those key human elements are that drive trust. And trust is a term w- like we were just saying b- before the show started, that, you know, that's like the number one issue right now. You know, the whole midterms election I think was… had the outcome that it did because of a erosion of trust.

8:09 Yeah. And people didn't say what they, or didn't do what they said they were gonna do, and that's one of the core tenets of trust, right? Is, is follow through and doing what you say you're gonna do and, you know, being reliable, being honest being straightforward with it, and so much about our world right now is just not honest. But what's your thought about what… I mean, is it the same thing that, that I just said is what you think builds human trust? Yeah, I mean, to build off of it, and I agree with that, is Like I, I created this automation at work that's like a bot. Like let's say, Rob, you're my manager, you'll message me, "Yuri, what's the latest on this product? Like is someone gonna get it?"

8:50 Or whatever, right? And I realize I'm getting a lot of messages. I don't have enough time, so I build a bot that uses my own knowledge and then messages you know, different team members. And I realized that they… A lot of people didn't like it. You know, not only did it say it's from Yuri's bot or whatever, 'cause I, I, you know, I like to reveal the truth, but, you know, it's not human as much. They would say, "It doesn't sound like you, Yuri." So then I build, uh, what I called Yuri mistakes, right? English is not my first language, believe it or not, and, and so I infuse it with you know, like, uh, mistakes if you may. Maybe a wrong comma or dot dot or, you know, like misspell here and there. And it seems to me, and we'll, we'll f- we'll find out if that's actually helping people.

9:33 Uh, and I'm doing this through emails as well. And so I think the first thing, you know, that as, as you're thinking about this topic, to me it's… There's, you know, to dive right into it, I think there's a place for both types of things, right? Like first of all, the, uh, AI with creativity, with content creation, right? There's people that are gonna love it and there's gonna be people that are gonna hate it, and everyone in between, right? We know that. And I think there's a place for, for both types, right? There, there's a reason by the way I personally won't watch sports of AI robots, at least right now, or at least I'll want human in there. Yeah. Because as I, I was kinda mentioning like there's human mistakes. Like even the best soccer player- Yeah … in the FIFA World Cup made these mistakes.

10:15 Like, "Oh, I can't believe that person made it." So there's this randomness of chance where if AI is playing and one robot is just, has better version control, better, you know, optics and, and hardware, like it's most likely to win. So I think that's to me the same thing with content. You're gonna have lots of different types. I think people are gonna… There's gonna be people who are like, "I need to know that this is gluten-free," or, "This was, you know, farm fre…" Like, you know, there, the chickens were running around. Right. There's people like, "I don't care. Sorry, I don't care about the chickens. Just give me the cheapest thing ever or whatever is num- you know, mind-numbing." So I think that's where I see there's gonna be, again, a spectrum of things, and I'm very positive about this.

10:55 I think once we remove this era, I, I see a lot of the AI slop or a way to just, you know, move away so, so these, these, uh… Like when you go on YouTube, right, and you get your recommendations, imagine that's getting so good, so much better. Yeah. Then I think again it doesn't… Like it'll just ideally give you what you're wanting to watch. It should propose new things. I'm all for that. I don't think you should be in an echo chamber. But again, I'm very excited of the amount of AI, non-AI, and the hybrid That's gonna be all across- Yeah … both in content and, and outside as we talk, like what you could do outside of the show, outside of the, the entertainment w- with it. What do you think? Yeah, I think that the hybrid is where we're, we're going to land.

11:39 And i- and increasingly I'm seeing that happen. I had the CEO of Descript on the show and Laura was very, um, adamant with me 'cause I was pushing her on this element of, well, you know, y- your tool will eventually be able to make all the content, right? And she's, like, going, "No, that's not what we're building. W- what we're building is a tool to make human content better." And that's that, that middle ground, right? You know, 'cause our whole society's focused on this AI slop thing or human content slop, which is almost like, you know, like the political polarization topic to some degree. It's, it's one extreme to the other, right? But maybe where the real solution here is and the real value is in the middle somewhere.

12:23 And I think this election just pointed that out to us, is that the middle is actually trust And it's also about using tools in a responsible way, us- making the use of AI kind of, built on a foundation of human responsibility, and that's what's interesting to me as I think about this. 'Cause this show is pretty much all AI, but I do use AI to help me come up with ideas, and create the artwork, and things like that- Yeah … which are all complementary, not a replacement for. And I think that's that hybrid that I'm talking about, and, and I think that's what I want to symbolize out there in the world, and that's why I, I'm pushing on this show, and trying to make it better, and try and build it and make it more relevant to people.

13:10 L- let me ask you this, 'cause I, I think, you know, your audience and yourself, you hear a lot about AI slop, and most people are like, "I hate I- AI slop." You know- Now, what is AI slop, really? A- again, and everyone has their own version. AI slop usually- Right … you know, the definition is you go into, let's say, Gemini, and say, "Create this video," and it's like, it does it, and then you go, "This is the best thing ever," right? And then- Right … and you do, like, thousands, millions of these. I was having this, this thought in my mind. I don't… Uh, well, let me ask you this, actually, instead of… Reality TV shows, right? They… The Kardashians and all those. Do you personally watch them, Rob? Is… If I'm putting you on the spot, is that kind of your- No your cup of tea? No. Right. No. Figured. I know- No, I wanna try and l- learn something from content that I watch or- That's totally fair.

13:54 Right. Right … same for me. Not my cup of tea. And you and I could go and judge people, and I have relatives and family who, who love these shows, and then you realize, like, you know, who are we to judge? This is their entertainment. If- Yeah … if it's not hurting anybody, usually, right? It usually doesn't hurt anybody, it's just a waste of time or whatever it is or that kind of… To me, I know this is gonna sound maybe controversial, but I've already met people who love watching AI slop. And then by the way, th- there's people like we're t- there was a buddy of mine who was like, "I love watching like, there's these videos on TikTok of these gentlemen eating sandwiches in their car. And I'm like, "Isn't that AI slop?" "No, this really real." And then there's these AI s- what I call AI slop, these, um- Yeah … over-romanticized, they're like 30 or like few minute like, uh, it's like dramas that it's all AI.

14:42 You know it's AI 'cause all the people are super perfect and chiseled and whatever, and the, the dialogue is, my, my gosh, like something, you know, I could probably come up 'cause I'm not creative like that. And my point is, I also know a lot of people that are just watching it. They know it's commercial, they know it's AI, and they just love it. So my kind of take is if people really like it, like why wouldn't you wanna produce it if that's what you're doing? Right. Does that make sense? Yeah, I think it does make sense bec- I mean, I, I watch quite a bit of AI g- generated content and, you know, I think that the gradient of what is considered to be slop, I, I think is probably more to do with how it's put together and how the AI is used, and I think that's been a gradient for human content too.

15:26 You know? And it, it's, you know, there's, there is such a thing a- and a concept of human content slop too. Yes. So, you know, so in a lot of ways the this AI content was very roughly put together, was not fully formed, was not fully conceived and, and produced, and maybe the early years of AI just didn't have the ability to produce something that someone would seem or see as something of quality. And so that's where this label AI slop came from, right? Was the sloppy early years of AI content. And but that was the case with podcasts and other online content.

16:08 I know, you know, a really great example of this is my own channel at YouTube which I started about 19, 20 years ago, and I posted a bunch of really rough, kind of fuzzy imaged car videos back in that timeframe about a Toyota Camry Hybrid or whatever 'cause I had bought one back in 2006. And so I did this whole series called Behind the Wheel and posted these videos about my Toyota Camry and my experience with it at different mileage points, things like that. Mm-hmm. Those videos got, you know, 200,000 or 300,000 views over a s- subsequent period of years, and they were not quality content.

16:48 But they were authentic. They were real. It, they solved- I think a, a need that the… Yeah, 'cause those videos don't get much traffic now. But they got a lot for many years because I think they were solving a need where people were considering buying a Toyota Camry Hybrid and they wanted to see someone talk about it, right? And their own experiences with it before they made that decision. So, you know, there's always a purpose behind this content, and how it's produced, we oftentimes, um, get kind of wrapped up in. Um, but it's really more about, well, what's actually in the content? But then w- we're in this era of, you know, to some degree it's the splash and the tease of it of sorts.

17:32 Um, there's got to be substance there, but, you know, I think, you know, at least on YouTube I see is that there's a lot of splash about, you know, how you lead in and how you tease questions that don't have an answer to them, and it h- hopefully keeps people hanging around. So, but that's a very human thing, right? Yeah. I don't know that AI would automatically do those kinds of things. No, I'm I'm with you. But again, I go back to examples. One of the earliest AI sound that I've heard was, I think it was like Steve Job and Einstein or some, like, famous folks who passed away- Yeah, yeah … and someone used their AI to recreate their voices. Ah, yeah. And I'm listening to this and I know that this is not real, but I'm drawn to it, Rob.

18:15 'Cause I'm like, it's very interesting, and I know that they use an AI to create the script. Is it as good as someone who's a movie maker or knows how to do entertainment, big budget movies and shows? I know it's not, but there's something about it. I mean, you kind of talked about this. It's new, it's fresh, it's something I haven't seen before. And, like, it's hard to recreate with real human actors who are like that. Yeah, you can't. Right. And let's be honest, Hol- Hollywood has been using AI-like technology for years. It's called CGI. That's right. Exactly. And so n- not everything that we've seen in Hollywood, in the movies, has been real either. So, you know, I think the… I think people just get caught up in the the kind of doomer hype cycle stuff about this stuff, and don't, don't really see the forest through the trees of sorts of what the potential of this stuff is.

19:03 It's just another tool. It's another tool that is gonna enable us to create content that humans would probably not be able to c- create. And I think that's the best use of it too, is to create these fantasy worlds. I don't know if you've seen these vertical videos that are coming out about, you know, the, these, these future worlds and things like that where people are or in the past or whatever that are going through the, the Egyptian times and stuff. And then there's this modern woman that's taking you on a tour- Yes … of the pyramids or something from back in the, you know- Before Christ timeframe or something like that. And it's, you know, that's the perfect use for AI, right? It's, it's not to replace this kind of stuff that we're doing right here.

19:47 It's to replace fantasy. It's to replace creating different experiences. Yeah. And kind of to build, like, on the trust, like, again, there's… Trust is so much… There's one definition, but it's a perception, right? Like, a lot of what we're living in is a perception that our brain is doing through our eyes. Right. And to me, right, and not to get philosophical, but if you go back to, like, again I know YouTube a lot 'cause I work with a lot of different creator, content creators and folks backstage in YouTube. It's just interesting to see that world. And really again, where the, the trust comes in, um, it's… I mean, you, you already said the authenticity or you, like, like the people creating it start creating the same type of a content.

20:30 Like, I think you and I talked about, uh, what is a diary of a CEO, right? He created something that people were kinda trying to do, but it was his format, it was his way of doing the podcast, it was his graphics, it was how he's talking. Like, he built that authenticity, right? Mm-hmm. And in the world of AI, why shouldn't he be allowed, if he wants to, like, say, "Hey, I can't interview everybody," or, "I don't wanna interview Yuri. He's not famous CEO, but I would love to have, like, a kind of like a TEDx," right? A diary CEO, CEO X, and you talk to his AI agent and it interviews and then his producers pick the best, like, X versions of Yuri who's from Google, right?

21:11 I'm just throwing ideas of that becomes again… And, and to me, like, you have to label AI and we could talk about this. I think you shouldn't try to hide that. I think that's weird if you do, but, like, own it. Like, "Hey, I use AI for this, but here's the human hybrid element." It was human. Yuri was talking to the, the AI version of Steven and look, it's interesting enough that we brought it up and you don't know how many people are gonna listen to this. Like, that's where I think it could actually extend different content creators to, to world, like from that kind of way to, like, all the C- I mean, you mentioned the CGI, all these effects that you could do now that, hey, unless you're earning, like, $200,000 from all these episodes, like, you cannot afford to go to LA and, you know, have a studio grade explosion, you know, to put on, on, on your show.

21:57 Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah, I think it does. I mean, I think it totally makes sense and I, I do wonder, Once we get into this next phase where I'm speculating and I've been putting it out there that I think probably 95% of the content that is gonna be available online will be eventually AI generated. Um- Fully, fully AI? Yeah, fully AI. 100%. Interesting. Well, I think it, it's gonna be 95%. So, and I think- 95 … there's gonna be probably 5%, maybe 10% of the content will be produced as human-created content or human with AI a- augmentation or enhancement. Um- Well, let, let me ask you this.

22:38 How much of that 90 the content that's 95% AI, how much, like out of 100% of all the content, let's say on YouTube or in TikTok, whatever, how much do you think people are gonna watch that content versus more hybrid, I don't know, 50/50 or 90/10 or zero? Well, I th- the, the reason that I say that is because I, I think the content that will be able to be produced will actually be better in a different way than human content. Right. Because we are in a, a era, even right now, that's very crowded with content, right? Very f- flooded with content, and there's a lot of human content out there that's not very good, right?

23:18 So part of this e- evolution that I think is gonna happen is, is that the game is gonna get raised, right? The AI content's gonna get better and better, and that's gonna push out a lot of, um, uh, you know, on-camera kinda human creators that aren't gonna be able to compete against it. Um- I see. So it's gonna, it's gonna stratify the market. Yeah … and so it'll be, you know, like the top 10%, uh, human creators that will be able to continue doing what they're doing that will compete with the AI content. So there's gonna be a lot of content out there available, and it… W- we're already in that world right now where there's, you know… I even question my mind even doing this show because it's like this is just another conversation, right?

24:04 Amongst, you know, 50 million conversations that were probably published today, right? So how do you… It's not like the early years when I started my radio show when I was just part of, like, maybe a hun- maybe 100 or 50 shows across the country that were talking about technology. It was kind of a rare thing, and it was people, once they found it, it was like they, they tuned in. But when there's an abundance of content out there that's beyond most people's ability or time to consume then what, what rises to the top? And it's gonna be the best content, right? Or the… Unfortunately, and we're already seeing it in the market, like the MrBeast or The Diary of a CEO, and that has a team of 40 people that are working on producing it.

24:49 So we're heading back to a similar time to what we went through many years ago around broadcast television, around the production quality and Hollywood and things like that. I think we're shifting back to an era like that, and the big question I have is, well, how many creators are gonna be able to do the level of content that is gonna be expected in the market because of AI? A- and that's fair. And, and let's look at, at the numbers, and I just pulled this up just- Mm-hmm … just to kind of have something to, to, to- Yeah … react to. I searched for the most viewed videos. Like, what are people watching on YouTube, right? Mm-hmm. A- and, and the, the top, you know, eight of them, it's either, like, a Baby Shark, Wheels on the Bus, like kids videos- Yeah animations.

25:33 So you're, you're correct. You could technically- Yeah … have AI easily redo that. Not easily- Yeah … but you could do that. Uh, then you have Despacito, uh, and all these music videos, like See You Again. And again, that could have AI in it, but I'm wondering, again, at what stage are we gonna be in a humanity that similar to athletes that you in- aspire to be today, like, I don't hear a lot of people like, "Oh, I, I aspire to be this AI athlete," right? I wanna be like Michael Jordan, not like AI Jordan, right? I'm wondering, like, for singers or those kind of entertainers, again, how much people are gonna wanna watch those live or their music video versus some AI version of them. I, I don't have the answer, but I'm saying, like, that to me, like, those are the categories that I think could be disrupted, and then there's all the podcasts, and that's gonna be a g- question.

26:22 Is that more like sports or podcasts? Like, why are people tuning in to the podcast? Is it the, just the written content that- Mm … anyone in AI can deliver, or is it the, the human element that it's harder to get? And yeah, so what, what do you- Yeah … what do you think about that? Yeah, and the w- what pulls people increasingly into podcasts I think is the, is, it is the personality, right? It's the, it's the- Yes … personal brand. It's the reputation. It's, uh, more and more it's, um, those folks that, that have a- Reputation of inspiring others for dramatic change or dramatic improvements, you know.

27:02 L- like the Huberman Labs guy is a good example of a guy that comes on and, you know, he's written all these books on startups and, and h- i- is inspiring people to transform their, their lives and take some independence and do their own thing and be successful, and he's a good example of that. And so I think those are the kind of personalities. It's the ones that are driving transformation are the ones that are doing well now. Right. Because those folks stand out. No, I, I agree. I'm, again, I'm just double-clicking. Yeah. I know a lot of people that, uh, I know personally that love MrBeast. Why? Because it's unique, but he puts humans… Like, "What would I do with a million dollars?

27:43 What is a million-dollar hotel versus one dollar?" And again, maybe AI, again, I don't wanna, like, go on record 100% people won't watch it, but I think there's, like, this hu- human element to it, right? But at the same time, think of movies and shows, and we can get into that. Yeah. Like, to your point, I, I think that's where the disruption is gonna be major, right? Now, someone in a village in the middle of nowhere in the world, as long as they have internet connection and Gemini, ChatGPT, Claude, any of the LLMs or open source- Yeah … now can compete in a way with the big leagues because it's the- Yeah imagination that they're… Like, as long as they have imagination as good as the director, writer, creators.

28:24 I'm not saying it's- Yeah … gonna be one-to-one, but I'm seeing really great content created- Oh … by, like, s- people who you never would think about. That's one. But then again, I'm, for example, a huge fan on Quentin Tarantino and Spielberg. But you know this better than I do, Rob, Rob. How long does it take for them to produce a movie from beginning to end? Right. I w- I, everyone, I'm sorry to say, we all die. I believe that at least. And so I wanna see more Tarantino and Spielberg movies, like 20 every quarter. And yes, some of them will be flops or AI slop. But how exciting is that, that if we are allowing them and they want to, like, we get more of their art, more of their ideas out. If, again, they have… I'm not saying we should pressure.

29:05 But that's where I'm saying, like, I s- I see AI again as more of a positive helping- Yeah, I do too … and, and equalizing for some of the other folks who never would get these opportunities. But like- Well, and I think the the, the, there's another little piece of this too that's out there that's brewing as well, and that's the entirely AI-created personalities and, um- And performers, um, that are being created by- That's right … Rob Greenlee: by, you know, these agents, networks, the WMEs or what- whatever th- th- that are creating their own portfolio of AI personalities, right? And building portfolios around them. And I've talked to a couple of companies that are in the music industry that are creating whole new music artists- Oh, yes … Rob Greenlee: uh, just entirely in AI.

29:49 And what they're talking about doing is, is creating just a complete library of, of high-quality music by that artist, building that artist's kind of like personal brand, their, their clothing, the, you know, clothing lines, and then taking that AI brand that's been built and converting it into the real world. Hiring an actress or an actor to portray that AI personality, and to sell products that are related to what's represented in the AI experience. And they're photorealistic. They look like they're the real thing. So I think it could go the other way. I think we've been very focused on human to business opportunity type of situations, or taking the human and then making a, an AI clone of that human and expanding that, but there's a lot of pushback on that.

30:43 But I think taking a pure AI generated personality and extending it into being human is an interesting kind of twist on the scenario. Yeah and, and let's take one use case, and I remember researching before talking to you. Have you heard of, let me see, The Velvet Sundown? Have you heard of this? No, I haven't heard of this one. Oh. This was like a, and I'm quoting him, "1960s style psych rock band." They appeared on Spotify- Yeah … Yuri Kleban: in 2025 out of nowhere. I think they got over a million listeners. Like, it was going pretty big, and then someone revealed that it's AI, and then, like, viewership dropped. Yeah, of course. Right? They, they, they- Once they find out, right … exactly. They didn't disclose. But again, in a blind test, it's like, you know, like those people are like, "I know the best hamburgers," and you give them McDonald's in, in a nice way that looks nice, and they taste it, "This is the best thing," and then you reveal it's McDonald's, and they spit it out.

31:32 I do believe what you're saying, that I think whether it's us or our children's children, taste can change over time, over centuries, over decades, even over a year or six months. So I'm not betting against that. I do believe, as earlier mentioned, I'm, I'm gonna die on this hill. Like, I think I would encourage people to disclose it ahead of time, like you said. Oh, yeah. Like the personalities that you mentioned, I don't think they're trying to trick people, 'cause as soon as you trick people, and they f- they will find out, then game over, right? Yeah, I do agree 100% with that. And I think if you're gonna create a, an AI personality, just build it into the content of what you're doing. Just have the AI personality identify themselves as a digital version or a, or a AI you know, kind of a representation of something or what- whatever.

32:18 It's just in the, in the dialogue of what's happening in the AI, and just make it part of it so it's obvious in the The viewer or the listener or whatever knows right up front what they're getting. There's no surprises, all this kind of stuff. I'm not a big fan of the, you know, the little AI button on the screen or whatever. It just feels like that is kind of, kind of just a temporary thing. I do wonder if we're gonna hit an era where you're gonna have to have a certified human content. You know- And where it's … You're not gonna have to identify the AI content 'cause people will just assume it's AI, um, from- I, I agree with you, by the way … from day one.

32:58 Just to give you an example, I forgot where it was, which country, but I remember, remember there was a, a huge cra- I mean, still, like, organic, everything organic, and I love it, right? For my kids, I buy organic. Mm-hmm. For me I'm a lost cause. Yeah, I do too. But it was a big, it was a big thing, right? And I remember somewhere, and I'm, I'm not kidding, I need to find this. We can Google later. There's a water brand that said, "We're also organic or vegan," and all that. And it's like, to your point, like, water didn't have to tell you what it was before. It was always this way. Right. But in this world … So to your point, I do believe you're gonna start seeing … I, I know YouTube is starting to even show you, like, "Hey, this AI's content we've detected." But you're right, the opposite, I think, is gonna be something people, uh, look for to say- Mm-hmm … "This is … Look, Rob and Yuri's conversation 100% the humans are authentic."

33:46 Yeah. Those little screens that say their name, that's AI, sorry to tell you or whatever, right? Like- Yeah … Yuri Kleban: I, I think that's gonna be something again. And you're gonna have people who love it, who are like, "Rob, I just want humans. Cut the AI. You know, like, get off my porch. Like, I've loved this my whole life. That's how I want it." And there's gonna be people like, " I love the AI part. I, I don't care." And there's gonna people like, "Oh, actually, I don't like humans. They're destroying the earth. I like AI," right? So you're gonna appeal to a lot of different audiences. But what do you think? Yes. Yeah, I do think that there's gonna be a hybrid approach. I think it's still a little early to do, do a hybrid approach e- even though I do know creators that are out there, especially on YouTube right now, that are doing a hybrid human/AI clone approach, and it's successful.

34:35 And it really gets back to how it's done, what's the quality of it, and what's the curation that's done by the human of the AI. And that it's fully disclosed. It's, it's not like it's trying to fool anybody. And, and that's what's interesting about what YouTube is doing is I know they cracked down on, you know … There was this reputation that was going around is that, oh, YouTube's cracking down on AI slop and all this kind of stuff. And to some degree, I'm sure they were. But that's a measured statement because- I ask myself, well, why would Google crack down on AI content when they actually are building AI content-generating platforms? So it seems a little contradictory that they would do that.

35:15 So I think what they did wind up doing, I think, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, is they cracked down on the deceptive and the, the poor AI-generated content that was putting out false messages and was doing, you know, deceptive things or it just wasn't wasn't of quality. And I think that's what got pushed out, and I think what they… 'Cause I see a lot of A- fully AI-generated videos in YouTube that get hundreds of thousands of views that are active in YouTube. Um, actually I probably, I would guess probably 20% of the videos that I watch on, on YouTube are fully AI-generated videos. So- That's interesting. Yeah … and, and that's growing I think.

35:56 It really gets back to the quality of the production, and it gets back to, well, what's the value? What's the topic? What's the, you know… And it's probably topics and a production that a human just couldn't afford or wouldn't have the time to actually do in a, um, traditional method. Yeah, no. And, and again, to your earlier point, while I don't have, like, direct line of sight of the, the policies, when I think… If you think of YouTube, right, you don't wanna come to any- whether YouTube or any place and just have really bad misleading content. Right. M- maybe by the way someone would build that, you know, social network, like it's known for just crap and, like, go there to, to do conspiracy theories.

36:36 Yeah, and it's not even j- just AI content that these platforms have been concerned about. Correct. It's- It's the human ones too, right? Yeah, exactly. I mean, I used to run the Zune podcasting platform at Microsoft for many years, and one of my… One part of my job was making sure that the, the crap was not in the in the catalog, right? Because I had to answer to the attorneys or whatever if there was porn in there, if there was, you know- That's right … any kind of content that violated the terms of service of Microsoft it had to be dispensed with. And so that's, that's how I saw what, what Google was doing I, I think, and it just got spun out of, in a direction that, you know, that catered to the narrative of the media that likes to paint things in a negative light.

37:22 Exa- exactly. And, and going back to, again, to, to your original questions, can creators still build trust in the era? Uh, like I- Yeah … Yuri Kleban: I really think that we are living in this, like, golden age. And I know, again, people are gonna disagree, but- Think about this, like I can, on Sunday, talk to my twin daughters who are six. Yeah. They can tell me, "Daddy, I would like to… I wish there was a game that had…" You know, they each like, uh, one of them likes, what is it? Uh, a unicorn and one a flamingo. And they're like, "I wish there was a game where it was a combined creature and you're just jumping over things." Right. Right? And there is no game. I, I search. We didn't need to though search, because then we went to our favorite LLMs, and we built it after like, we went back and forth for an hour.

38:05 Mm-hmm. And it thought for four to five hours. We came back after outside time. We had a video game, Rob, ready. And my kids could be like- Right "Oh, actually I want this world and that world." And that again is like the, and the creator world, like I'm not a video game creator. I dreamed of being one. Yeah, that's what I say. I'm not that smart, right? But you can be one now. All you gotta do is tell a certain AI to build it for you, and it'll build it for you. Exactly. Exactly. And, and the co- I was like searching like the cost to put on Steam and all that. It's not that huge. I thought like you have- No … to be the successful game company and amazing- Yeah … storyteller. But my kids were addicted to it. I, I, I, you know, I, I said, "No more." And it was one of those like, you know, you press a button and you jump, and you can compete and jump o- Yeah with your, with your, the sisters were fighting, you know, or competing.

38:48 And to me it just, again, my mind was like, oh my gosh, like tr- like they trusted. They know it's AI. Yeah. But it's what they wanted to see and it kinda, it scratched their itch. They make it customizable. We could talk about- Yep some of the ideas I've had on, on how do you make this content more customizable. But it's like at people's fingertips. They do- It- it's by the way why I think Netflix was so successful and all these, you know, streaming companies are so successful is you get it now. Remember back in the day when you had three channels and you have to wait once every week for a show? And I know some companies still do this, but- Yeah … I mean, you could drop something on Netflix like, you know, Stranger Things, and everyone will stop their whole life and just watch and consume.

39:30 Right. It was like on- The NBC network it was Must See Thursdays, right? Remember? Yes. There was like four different TV shows that were back to back during that- That's right that day, right. You had to see it. That's right. But- But now again, like you can earn trust from people. Yeah. It's you know, if, if I'm a startup and I'm thinking of my idea, it should be an idea that's answering someone's problem, solving a problem for them that they either have to pay money or whatever it is. I think of content as being the same way. People like to consume content because they wanna learn something. Like you and I are very similar. Yeah. Like I love podcasts because I learn a lot. Other people are like, "I had a bad day. I don't wanna think about the world. I don't care about logic.

40:11 I wanna put something that it's mind-numbing," or whatever you wanna call it. Yeah, right. And, and who are we again to judge? Why are we as humans trying to prevent someone to enjoy themselves that way? There's other people like, uh, and that's kind of the ideas I, I've been speaking to other folks, like I love, again, the Stranger Things, right? And it ended, and I personally, I'm torn about the last episode of the last season. Like, I wish it ended a different way, or I wish there was a continuation. Like I'm still alive. Yeah. I'm not dead. Like, I wanna see more. Right. Why isn't there a way for the fans similar to, let's say if you and I read Harry Potter, we love it, now you can just write a book, right? The fan fiction. Mm-hmm. And then publish and people can add ideas and build on top of it. Oh, yeah. Why isn't that for content, video, audio content, right?

40:54 Where you love somebody or something- Yeah … Yuri Kleban: and with their permission, and we could talk about how they can continuously earn money, you can build on top of it. It's always says like, "This is not the real person." There's guardrails. Yeah. Like every actor can say, "Hey, I'm never I never wanna- Yeah … support the war in Iran, so never put those words in my mouth," or whatever it is, right? Like you, you could build a lot of these guardrails, but still allow other humans, your fans, to interact with you in such different ways. Yeah, I agree. I think that's gonna be the future, Rob, where why do we need to wait for the next season of something? I wanna create my own version. Yeah. And maybe it's just for me, by the way. I've seen some people, it was like the early days of AI, someone just did an AI that would just create those Seinfeld episodes.

41:35 They're all so dumb, they're so cheesy. Yeah. But again, I watched 30 minutes of them, I'm not gonna lie. Like, some of it was like f- actually fun, like, oh, this is clever. Yeah. And I, I relived those days. I love that show, and it ended obviously, and they're not gonna do a reunion. And again, if we do it in a way that it's not harming anyone, it's not putting words to the actors they don't agree with it's not making money for someone who shouldn't, like you could sh- spread the wealth- Yeah. There's- … and all that. Yeah. Why shouldn't we give more of these tools and empower the fans to be creators? Because again, the last thing I'll end with is, and we talked about this, is the number of watchers to creators is incredible. I forgot what it is, but it's like incredible. Why aren't we empowering more people to create?

42:17 Is my thinking. Just like right now you can go on Lovable- Yeah … or Claude or Gemini and build an app Where is that for the content creators? Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. I mean, I agree 100%, and I've, I've talked to startups in Silicon Valley that are really focused on trying to create that interactive AI layer that will basically enable the audience to contribute their own AI to the conversation with other AIs. Ask questions of the other AIs that are maybe talking about sports or whatever. And create a interactive experience between the audience and the AIs where it's almost like they're all sitting around the same table talking about the Seattle Seahawks or something like that.

43:05 Yes. Let's go. And so the audience participates and also, and I'm seeing this in my own work with AI where you're only limited by your imagination. You can pretty much create anything you want now. Um, I mean, it, it can be a little expensive and it can currently still be a little bit technically challenging to, to pull all the pieces together, but I don't think it's gonna be like that for much longer. Um, where you just tell it what you want, and it will… I mean, I'm e- even hearing it in the podcasting in- industry where people, you know, the, the Adam Currys of the world, the ones that invented podcasting, is talking about how he's using agents now to spin up podcast listening apps, personalized ones.

43:47 He's not even needing to use Apple Podcasts or Spotify anymore. He can, as long as he has access to RSS, he can spin up his own consumption experience and have a, you know… And so that's why it's very important that in RSS we able, we're able to extend its capabilities to be able to, you know, have a MCP or something like that connects to the platforms and offers other types of interactive opportunities or monetization and all sorts of stuff. We may get to a point where we don't even need like a Spotify or something like that to get access to content, even though they're gonna be probably part of the ecosystem- Mm-hmm … that's out there. But you're gonna have the option to spin up your own app or your, like, like you just said, spin up your own game or create your own experience and then offer that to the world if you want to.

44:37 And it's gonna create a very different dynamic in the world, isn't it? Yeah. And again, I, I wanna go back to the… You made a good point, like it's still, there's still technical limitation for content creation- Mm-hmm … but it's getting easier. And this again, this was just a few weeks ago- Yeah … I was just reading where somebody said, "Hey, you know, you should… You can now go on Claude, Gemini and just say, 'Create a, like a, a walkthrough video of your app or a commercial.'" And again, if you try this, like a few months ago it was very like spotty and you had to like piece things together. Yeah. Rob, my friend, if you try now in your audience, like go try this. If you have an app or a c- or a show or any content, let's say y- you have your own podcast. Go to these LLMs and say, "Hey, create like a commercial.

45:19 Here's my videos." I feel like it's doing a really cool j- You could always do it like, "And it looks like this," or in this kind of style Yeah It is crazy, eerie, amazing how much it has gotten be- like how better, uh, yeah- Oh, it's remarkable … it has gotten so good that I'm like, oh my gosh, I used to, you know, have to go on Adobe, on After Effects, and do all these things, and now I can kind of cheat with some of the smaller things. Or if I wanna do like 20 ideas and then, you know, hone in on one and spend the rest of my time. Before, again, it's like, oh my gosh, I have to do 20 by hand, and it's like hours, weeks, months. I'm telling you, some of these, like I, I, I have like a, a side app that I'm helping SMBs, and people are like saying, "Oh, I, I want these walkthroughs."

46:02 And I would literally do, open up, you know, Loom or whatever, like, and do these walkthroughs, and I'm like, oh my gosh, Rob, like this is so long to cut, paste, put music, cut out when my uh, uh- We're getting impatient, aren't we? And I literally said, "Hey, use my voice. I'm allowing you. Go into my app-" Yeah …"create these videos for some of these." And then it was, like, done in, like, a few minutes. And, and my mind was like, oh my gosh, if it could do it for this, can you do a commercial? Why should people use? What's a good outre- Like, the content creation is great. And again, I'm a human in the loop. I do believe… i'm not the big believer at this point at least that, you know, you go to content, whether it's written, video, audio. You say something, it does first version, you send it off. That's rarely, you know, the one shot, even in apps.

46:44 Like I, I don't trust that. But if you have a human in loop that has creativity and has some ideas and can research and bring some ideas and say, "Hey, what about this? What about that?" And earlier just to the point, I don't know if you felt like a lot of these AI, the LLMs, they're people pleasers. They'd be like, "Yes, I will do this for you." E- even though if it's wrong, right? We're not in a world where- Well, they want you to keep, uh, s- subscribing, right? Th- that's right To keep as being a user. Yeah. So, you know, they do have an interest in- It is like the slot machine- Yeah … where you put the money and like, I don't know what I'll get. They want you to get… I get that. We, again- … that's another subject. But my point is if you get arou- Yeah … like, the creation it's really… I think what, what is missing, by the way, for… That was some of the questions I was thinking would be interesting.

47:27 Like, it, right now at least you still have to talk to the LLM- Mm-hmm written, audio, video's coming soon with, with Hagen and all those. And- But soon, right, uh, and sorry, and so that's right now. You, the only thing that's stopping is can you talk to it and give your ideas? And, and I think once we get over that hump, again, you'll get a lot of unique perspective of content, and I do believe that if we go to a world where I believe that AI can not get you fired, but you can work with it and you don't have to work those 80 hours, can we… Like, how crazy would it be if we are allowed to have a four-day week? Like, you know, like as humanity.

48:08 I, I'm the, you know, not a big Star, like not a Trekkie or whatever, but I watch Star Trek and I love that world of like- Yeah … we're exploring the world and, and what Elon said in, in the whole space, like that, that's a cool thing that as humans we should spend time on. And we should enjoy content and things like that and entertainment, right? Not just being in the rat race all the time. I do believe once that is much better and we have the right guardrails and again we try to limit all the dangers that we're, everyone's talking about. Yeah. I do think, again, the trust is gonna just slowly, if not already, trickle in. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and I'll end, I'll end with this, like- I know we're talking about creators building trust in the AI era, but I've talked to right now in, in just in the last, you know, month and a half to, like, 300 people about AI, and I, one of my favorite question to ask is, like, h- how much do you how much information do you give your AI?

48:58 And 'cause I personally, like, I'm very wa- worried, you know, I give enough information, but a lot of these folks are like, "You know what? They… It has access to my bank account, not to do transaction, but I just want it to have more context about me." And so I think where this is going is do, do you remember back in the day, I mean, you still have it, you know, you go on a website and you have the little sign that says, "Hey, Rob, do you wanna click here? Do you trust with your life?" And we used to read those, now we just do, "Yes, whatever." I think the same thing is gonna happen in, in the creator world. Like, pe- people will use AI and will disclose it, but it'll be kind of like, I don't really care. I just wanna see what the content is, if it's interesting, unique," you know. Everything as you were talking, storytelling is there, it's authentic.

49:41 It, it has a different spin. I think that's still gonna continue building trust between the creator and the audience. I think that's, uh, to me, as long as there's a human in the loop, I think that's the best case. Uh, I wanna hear from you though what you think. You know, I did meet some folks who want agents to build, you know, these podcasts, and it's just, like, agents creating content and content. And I'm wa- wondering what, what your thoughts on this, right? If it… There, there is no more human in the loop. It's the human started, and then they walk away and let it do its own thing. What, what do you think about that world? Yeah, I think it's more interesting when a human is in the loop. I think it's a, it's a collaboration that actually has it at the highest value.

50:21 ' Cause I don't know what, what it is, but it- and I've been thinking a lot about this lately is, is what is that value layer that a human brings to an AI conversation and an AI build? And that's human intuition in a world that you're building something that your primary audience is gonna be human, mostly at this point, though- That's right … Rob Greenlee: part of the, the elements that I'm working on with the Trust Factor Lab will be, well, sure, you can build elements that are attractive and build trust with humans, but you need to start thinking about, you know, what elements you have to build to be able to build trust with AI agents that are representing humans to, you know, make purchase decisions or subscription decisions or whatever.

51:08 What signs or, or validations or, um, that the AI agent's gonna go through to decide, you know, of the five options, which one am I gonna choose, right? That's right. Um, so you do have that element, too where the, the AI is gonna continue to push us to actually do more. That's what my actual experience is. I'm building four different website platforms right now. Yes. And it's c- And I'm… Even with this show it's increasingly taking on more and more of the post-production the website publishing side of, you know, it's like I used to go in and hand-edit everything in the WordPress instance that is used for this website, but increasingly the AI can do it much more rapidly and can do it much more efficiently and create better kind of experiences on the website than I would probably be able to code in the same period of time.

52:06 So, you know, there's, there's value here, but I do my own experiences is that it makes me more busy. And I don't know if that's a vector, and tell me what you think about this, is that, I mean, eventually are we as humans going to gate our expectations or our desires to take on more, right? And to do more? 'Cause I keep hearing from folks that are doing a lot with AI right now that are engineers and ones that are really in the, the weeds of using AI, and what they're finding is that they burn out or are completely exhausted because they're doing so much more. But that also requires them to supervise so much more, that it's actually making a- giving us more work because we're doing more.

52:53 L- l- yeah, I, it's a great point. L- let me… Th- this is my perspective. I remember when we came to the States from abroad, my dad never had ketchup, believe it or not, Rob. Okay. That was a big thing- yeah … having ketchup. If you're born into the USSR, you didn't have a lot of this, the communist- Ah … place. You didn't have ketchup. And he, as, as my mom explained to me, like, put ketchup on everything 'cause it was like- … the hot, the, the coolest thing. Why not? Right. Like, I've never had it so delicious. It has s- sugar, salt, like everything. It's, it's tomatoes, his favorite, you know, vegetable at the time. And my point is, is, you know, he put it so much that after, I don't know if it was a year, two, or three, but eventually he stopped.

53:34 And to this day, like if let's say I'm eating fries and I'm like, "Do you want ketchup?" He's like, "Ah." I'm done for life, right? And why I'm telling you this story is I think that's what's happening right now. We all got this addictive power. We all got addicted to these LLMs. And to your point, I'm building so many things at work, outside of work, helping more folks, talking to more people, because it's enabling. Mm-hmm. I think there's gonna be a point where you're just like, "You know, I think I've, I've explored enough." Right. I- I think I've reached my limit You're just saturated. I know I… We actually met through a, a platform called Boardy. And so that platform just, like, a week ago or so was… Which I've been working with Boardy for over a year now. And it's gotten to a point with him was that he'll completely fill up my calendar, um, every day with, with people to talk to.

54:21 While that's wonderful I can't get anything else done. So- That's right … Rob Greenlee: I had to tell him to back off a little bit. That was your ketchup. That was your ketchup, Rob. Right, right. Too much ketchup. It's like I wanna build some stuff, right? I don't wanna just do calls all day. Which is, there's good sides to that. That's how I met you and, and there's terrific you know, things that come from that. But it c- you've gotta create some balance, right? And I think that's what you were talking about with the ketchup, is that people get a little bit too involved in these things, and they stretch themselves too far, and then there's a blow back at some point. Yeah. I- I'm hoping that it's not like, you know, the whole cigarettes thing where it's so addictive that it's really negative.

55:03 Right, and it kills you. It kills you, right? Be- because I'm sure you've, you've heard this, like, children or us using, you know, the LLMs instead of thinking. There's all these studies coming out. Like, that definitely is a world I don't wanna get to. And then what you and I talked about, all the innovation you could do. Yeah. Again, I think we're just in the… We're in it right now, so we're trying to figure it out and if it's not us, the next generation is hopefully gonna be more in the middle and they're like, "Hey, old timers, do this, but don't do too much. Be in the middle." Like, there's a how many hours you could use an LLM- Yeah … per day versus, you know, churning on this 24/7. Yeah, and I do wonder how many people out there, um, even that are watching this show tonight really even think about the things that we're talking about right now.

55:45 It's… You know, I tend to, to think and live a little bit in the future because I, I look at things through that lens, and I always have. I mean, that's what my radio show did when I was back in the early years of the internet, was that's what the show was all about, was helping people understand the internet. And so that's what I'm doing now to some degree. But there's so many other people out there that are so much more fully, you know, in the weeds of what's happening with the technology, and I just love talking to people that are in the weeds of what's happening with this stuff and where it's going. But I also- I have my own intuition based on my, my experience and my history too, and I, I can see trends that are moving and developing, and I'm sure you can too.

56:32 And then I, I put my lens of media on that, like w- with podcasting or whatever, and I can see some serious things coming in the future that are-- that will completely disrupt our perception of what reality is right now for pretty much every aspect of our lives. But the core of it is what our interests are, what we get excited about, what our passions are. That's the part that's not gonna go away Yeah, no, I'm, I'm with you. Everything that makes us human will remain. I think, I still think as much as I probably, you know, I'm drinking the Kool-Aid of AI being, you know, at Google, seeing all this amazing innovation, stay tuned for all the cool things.

57:15 I still don't know if, like, it- I, I agree that it's gonna revolutionize a lot of the things, but, like, again, going back to my father, he's a plumber, right? And sure, and one day there'll be robots are doing his job, but he's like- Yeah … "Until then, people are gonna call me because their bathroom is broken." "They need a new water heater, Uri, Uri." Right. Like, I, I can't sit at home and have an LLM chat with me and do that. Like, they could… He literally says, "Go. You can go to the LLM. It'll tell you what it'll do." Yeah. But you need a human being to do these things for you. So I think- Or have the tools to accomplish the task too. Exactly. Right. And, and my point is, like, I do… Like, I see in some industries, like, it's revolu- it's going so fast, and in some it's, like, bumps or, like, it- it's gonna, it's gonna hit a, a, a block, right?

58:01 Until, like, I, I got the chance to see some of the latest robots here in Silicon Valley. Without naming the companies and the startups, they're amazing. You know, you're like, "Wow." Yeah. And then you're like, "Well, a bunch of them are still humans operating them." They can hold a can, but then after five minutes it drops. Like- … there's all these bugs that you're like, "Okay," like- But that's tech though. It doesn't always work. Ex- ex- exactly. Right. But, but my point is, like, the Terminator is not here, if, if your audience is wondering if that was the question. I know Elon, I heard, gets asked, like, "Are there aliens?" Because he knows about space, and he's like, "There's no aliens." Yeah. From my point of view, I've not seen any Terminators, nothing close. There's definitely danger in all that warfare that is scary, but there's nothing that's, like, self, like AGI, that's here to, like, do things without a human in the loop.

58:44 And as my wife like to say, like, "If I plug this, like, internet cord here, your whole, like, little agent world dies, Uri." So, like, that also is, like, a whole thing. There's, you know, it's, yeah, even if you're in the cloud- Still saying just- … right? There, there's still- Just pull the plug, right? Exactly. There's still lots of plugs. It's a little harder. I know people would argue against me. But my, my point is, I, ag- again, going back, is like I think we're gonna be in this, the age of creativity, or whatever is the better English term for it. Like, it's coming very soon. I do think, just hitting one last point on, as the audience is wondering about trust in the AI era- What's the best way to put it? I remember, you know, making … I, I had a, a long time ago, and hopefully no one can find this a YouTube show.

59:25 That's how it, uh, it helped pay for my college degree of, uh … It's like the man on the street asking about relationship. Like, "What do you think about this in a relationship?" Like, "Would you ever date someone who's married if you're in college?" You know, all these things. It was controversial. And my point is when I was doing the episodes, I felt like I had to do everything super polished. Like, if I show- Yeah … that I put a lot of efforts, a lot of slides, that's what, like, that's what people wanted to see. I think that world is, is no longer. I think polish is it's no longer, like, the evidence of effort, to your point. It's no longer evidence, like, the more hours you spend on making the cuts that more people are gonna like it. I think it's what you're doing, what it is, the story behind it, the uniqueness.

1:00:07 You bringing, as you said, every human, just like our DNA is so different, like every human has different thoughts. That I believe. I don't believe we're in a simulation because we all have such different thoughts about the same topic even, and our own take on it in a way. Even a little bit slightly different, like a .001 difference even between… I have twin girls. You- They look so similar, sometimes sound similar, but they disagree on almost everything. You could know they're two completely different human beings, right? Yeah. They think completely differently. Yeah, I've had kids too. I've had a, a son and a- Completely … daughter, and they, they are not on the same page. Exactly, and that's why, again, I think for the content creators in the audience, I think more than ever the authenticity of you as a creator, whether you're behind the camera, whether you're giving the ideas or writing the… Like, that I think to your point counts a lot more than what school you went to, what equipment you have.

1:01:00 Could you fly in the most impressive person in the world? I'll tell you, I've seen this on YouTube and they're promoting this, is there's a lot of no-name creators, meaning they came out of nowhere- Mm-hmm that are doing amazing storytelling with AI. You know, YouTube has a lot of the AI tools, and I, I think that's fair and, and, and hopefully the other creators that are more well-established and have these big teams are celebrating like, "What a world, what a cool thing." Because again, imagine then they collaborate and do cool things with each other even and do crossover things that I'm sure you do with some of your- Yeah colleagues in the business. And to me again, what an amazing time to live that I'm hoping this actually connects us more- Yeah … than disconnects us.

1:01:41 That, that's my end thing is like I really think that the personal touch of the human side of us as individuals- Mm-hmm … that's really what's gonna not only earn you like the highest viewership but also earn the trust of people coming to you. And, and to me with AI, even without, but even with AI, it can accelerate a lot of those things, and you shouldn't… I tell people, "Don't fear it. It's not replacing you. You and AI are gonna make such cool things." Yeah. That's how I'm increasingly feeling about it too. I'm not, But I do worry that it, it is so capable of making Independent decisions around all sorts of little things that I would never have the mental capacity or the… Or allocate the time to get to that granular level.

1:02:30 It can make very small decisions very quickly based on the goal, right? Yes. Not so much me getting in the weeds of telling it precisely to put this here and this there, but I do do that sometimes. Like I'll, I'll tell the AI to change my navigation bar and add links to other parts of the website, or feature stuff, or bring stuff up to the top of the fold of the page or whatever. And it'll it'll do what I tell it precisely to do, and then I get to review it, and then if it's a little bit off, I just tell it to adjust it and we're good, right?

1:03:13 Yeah. So it's like having your own personal developer that's always there able to, to make things. And then it also has the ability to do… Create back-end databases and do… You know, I built whole back-end admins- Yes … to support a website myself. So it's, it's… It can be a little bit technically challenged to get one set up, but, uh, and once you've got one set up once, you can, um, you can replicate it pretty fast into other projects and other, other completely different websites. And I'm doing that with the Podcast Hall of Fame right now. I'm creating a whole extensive You know, w-web application for the Hall of Fame that's gonna have lots of different capabilities, um, that hasn't been launched yet, but it's in its development phase, and it's just me and my AI that's, um, that's working on it.

1:04:07 So yeah, I, I just see so much potential for this. And I, I do think that people are going to be empowered by it. It's not… I think we're a little bit too focused on its, its, um, its negative aspects, right? Um, because the, there are obviously negative aspects of AI that, um, people object to, and oftentimes they're fairly legitimate reasons to be concerned about it. But, you know, technology's always been a, you know, a take the good with the bad type of a situation, right? There, there's good uses and bad uses for technology and, and it's how we as humans use it is where it's important for us to have a good comprehension of, and using it in a responsible way is a big element of that, and that's a big part of trust too.

1:05:00 Uh, and that's why I'm so focused on that. So I don't know. What's your thoughts now? Yeah, no, I mean, lots to digest, but I, I'll just end, you know, or add to it, is that there's definitely, you know, people's fears. Uh, you know, I don't wanna dismiss people who are feeling, "Is this gonna replace me?" 'Cause I talk to a lot of, uh, young students as well, and I have- Yeah nieces and, uh, and then again, we talk about this political- There is … world that we're in. Like, people are afraid of where this is going, and the whole data centers, and what is it gonna do to the world. A- and again, we don't have enough time, and I'm happy to to, to do a follow-up or talk to anyone in your audience. Like, there's definitely pros and cons. Like I tell people, and you could do this right now to an LLM or just research yourself. You could search on Google or wherever you want to.

1:05:41 Like, there's pros and cons. I don't see the world usually as just like binary A and B, you know, one and zero. Yeah. There's a lot of things behind it and I do think there's a role for the corporations, the companies, the individuals, the government, like everyone needs to be in this together. And, and obviously there's lots of dis- disagreements and all these issues. But if you leave that o- on the side, again- I still believe that most humans, like, mean well, right? Like, I, I don't believe people are just born evil and everyone wants to hurt each other and, and do d- um, and I'm not being naive. There's awful people, like people I- I've seen trying to use, and I've seen this with my own family.

1:06:23 Like, they would do an audio of me or somebody and call to my family or whatever and say, "Oh, I am Yuri," like, "Give me money," right? Like, it's awful. Let's … what horrible people are using it, this AI technology and, and that's why the trust is, is being eroded. I'm still believer b- you know, that there's so many better, nice, good people who are going to be blocking, working on solutions because I think overall as humanity we wanna live and survive, right? It's in our DNA and we're less likely to try to hurt ourselves. We … Even if we do dumb things and then argue and bicker, at the end of the day, right? We, we all kind of go through these life journeys together. We grow up, we live, we're happy, we're sad. We … You know, there's an ending to, to us, at least as we know it.

1:07:03 And, and to me Really what, what I'm hoping people understand is not to just trust AI blindly, especially don't trust this guy, I work at Google, of course, like who, who is he to tell us? But I'm saying like do your own research and look at the pros and cons. Have these debates. I constantly would w- at, at, at work with Gemini, I, I constantly like, you know, 'cause we work on technology uh, internal tools for our execs, I constantly have like, "Oh, should we use this framework? Should we do that? Should we not? Is this…" Before I even talk to my UIUX team, right? I'm having these conversations, even if someone says, "Hey, this button should be green." I'm having this conversation, should it be green? What's a better idea? Give me the pros and cons. I really encourage everyone that's listening, do those researches on the good and the bad, and I think from everything I've done, is I think there's more good than bad.

1:07:52 And to your point that there's enough examples in society where we as humans, even though we had dangerous technology, think of nuclear weapons and all that, and I know war is still going on unfortunately and it's sad, but I'm saying we managed it and I truly believe that together we can… We have to have these conversations by the way to manage it, and then if we can get past that, the benefits that I'm clearly seeing, to your point, Rob, if we can teach more people to use AI and AI becomes easier and we make it… I'm hoping by the way it's as free in the future as water. You know, you can go to the library and get free water. How ama- or open, you know, the water spout at your home or in the office, like how amazing would that be if everyone got that, those skills, those superpowers, and we upgrade ourselves as, as, as humans?

1:08:38 Like, I think it, it'll be crazy to me if we don't want everyone to have this, to like and ef- eventually find a way to make it free or a way that it's kinda like, you know, when you go on YouTube you don't pay for it. It's free. There's ads and you can be annoyed, but as a society we agreed we're okay with the ads for now because we get all this free content. Imagine everyone gets AI and, and automation and, and it's, again, done in a way that's helping. Like I think there's gonna be more a lot, even a lot more good than bad. And then to your point, like may- maybe we'll all be traveling the stars and, and doing even cooler things than, than we're doing right now. Yeah. I try and draw some parallels to what, what we all saw with the growth of the internet, right?

1:09:18 And how that took many years for it to have widespread adoption and, and I think we're, I think we're at like maybe 90% of the global population has some sort of access to the internet at some level or somewhere. So w- even the basic level of internet access, we're not even 100%. So this is definitely a Time scale. Now granted it could be faster this way because, you know, there's not those physical limitations that the internet had of having the infrastructure or whatever. The infrastructure is pretty much already built. Now it's just a, a access type of an issue, right?

1:10:00 And with platforms like Starlink and whatever that are blanketing the Earth with internet access, there's really very little gating access issues right now. It's probably what, what device or, you know, what's the availability. I know in Africa there's been a big movement over the last few years of offering low-cost phones and- Yes things like that, that g- has given people that have traditionally not had access to technology access. And I think that's gonna happen with AI, and it may happen a lot faster than it happened with the internet. And I think that's probably what's gonna wind up happening and I just don't think either one of us really know what the implications of this are.

1:10:44 Just like when I was doing my national syndicated radio show about the internet I didn't know the topics I was talking about, about wireless internet were gonna really be as important as they are today. Um, just like now, I don't think we know the importance of what we're building here with AI to the future of the world. Um, and it could be something far beyond any comprehension that we can have right now, just like it was with, you know, what happened with social media and, and it's not always good, right? There's good sides and bad sides. I mean, I've enjoyed social media, but I also can see the, the manipulation of it too, right? Yeah. And there's human greed and human aspiration and human biases get layered into any of these things.

1:11:33 And so I think we're gonna see that with AI too that it was built on AI. I mean, it was built on human knowledge, so of course it's gonna reflect the values and the complexity of, of the, the human experience, right? Yeah. And maybe it's gonna be more intelligent than us, and if it is, maybe it'll, it'll make better choices than humans make. I don't know. That's right. I, I'll just end with this. I know we've been talking for a while and I have so many more topics, but Rob, think about this. Podcasting. Yeah. I was just seeing the term or the plumbing started around 2000, 2001. And then the name really started around 2004. 2004. Right. Right?

1:12:13 It became a bit more mainstream, like Apple added Podcast around 2005, and then it had like its thing back and forward. Mm-hmm. Then 2014 when Serial, you know, that podcast series became… That, that was when it started the golden age. And then 2020, if you remember with COVID, everyone's home, that blew up with videos. Yeah, right. And, and what I'm saying is like- Yeah … Yuri Kleban: that, and, and let me add one more. R- it was a few months ago, I remember reading this, Waymo cars Mm-hmm … right? There's no human driver. So if I exit and the door is one of those that I have to manually open, if I don't close it and walk away fully, that car can't move until you close the door.

1:12:54 Mm-hmm. And so what was happening, at least in SF, is the, the Waymo operators would have to order an Uber driver to come in and close the door. Oh, no. And think about that. That was someone's job. They were paid to come in and close the door, and both of those, why I'm laughing and, and, and why I'm re- reminding us is to the point you're making. We don't even know what kind of jobs and content creators are gonna be… Like- Mm … I can only imagine as, again, as more content creators start creating, so that's more businesses- Yeah … Yuri Kleban: more new teams are gonna be created. AI is gonna come up with… You'll need, like, I don't know, a per- like your AI special- your prompt specialist.

1:13:35 Maybe that's what Rob is gonna hire next, like the prompt specialist. That's all they do is just prompt the heck out of… Like I, I can't even phantom, to your point, like what kind of jobs. I think there's gonna be a huge influx of these types of jobs- Mm-hmm … that we haven't even thought about from the creator side of the house that, again, that it's kind of like the, the factory floor. You used to be on the factory. You used to do this and now there's robots, but now there's other things that people are doing that are… Like we were p- we got new jobs w- like the modern jobs. What's the next ones? I can't even tell you, but I do know we have not even thought about them, and in a year time, you can quote me on this. Yeah. We're all gonna laugh like, "Oh yeah, that crazy, you know, guy on, on Rob's show was right."

1:14:16 Like, there's now ABC. Like, no one even knew these terms, and we just created it. Right. Well, I kind of wonder if what the future is, and I think we're already seeing it, is that each of us becomes our own, like our own business, our own ecosystem, our own, um, op- operation that's linked up with our interests, our desires, and our skills. Uh, and we create something in the world of value, and I think that it's not so much about jobs. It's more about empowerment for us to meet our full potential of what we're capable of producing based on our unique experiences and characteristics and skills.

1:14:59 And I think we're seeing the very early days of that, But I think it's pretty, it's pretty extensive already actually. I think there, there's a lot of people starting startups, one-person startups now that are-- I mean, I'm, I'm doing the same thing with four websites and four platforms. You know, it's, you know, these tools are gonna enable people to make stuff for themselves, and I think that, that may be more likely where we're going. It's not so much that I'm gonna be going out looking for a job with ABC News or something like that. It's gonna be I'm gonna create my own platform, I'm gonna create my own thing, and then I'm gonna e-establish partnerships with other people that have a, an interest and are building AI capabilities too that I can partner with.

1:15:47 I'm already starting to do some of this stuff right now with some of my platforms where I'm partnering with other AI platforms to add value to my platform. And so we're creating ecosystems of companies working together, and that may be what the new economy actually looks like Right on. I've no notes. I think that's definitely a, a strong possibility. The only, again, repetition I'll say is we don't… Like, every futurist that I've spoken, I'm similar to you, I love- Is wrong, right? Right. And we've all been even Ray Kurzweil, who I got to meet, brilliant futurist, who's pretty good on very specific things, but even he has things that he got wrong. Yeah, right. And, and my point is, again, I didn't hear any futurist say, "Hey, we're gonna, like… You know, with the job of 2026, there'll be people driving in Ubers closing Waymo cars."

1:16:37 Like, no one predicted that. And, right. Uh, or, or podcasting- Right … is gonna be the biggest thing ever after 2020. Like, it's, like, everyone that I know is listening to a podcast. I have theirs. And so yeah my, my thing is I agree that there's, what you laid out is the clear, like, logical path. But as humans, as we start talking about this- … we're not perfect, so we're gonna come up with- It's gonna deviate, right … exactly, we're gonna deviate and come up with something that, like, no one even knew that like, oh my gosh, like… W- again, I was, I was joking. Like, we, you know, we're walking, and so you're creating energy, and this whole power problem that we're having in the world. What if, would someone, would AI figure out, like, you wear shoes, but we put something, and that gives power, and it sends it to the grid- … and as you walk, you get paid.

1:17:22 You know, if you have a solar panel in, in- Yeah … here, right? But imagine, silly idea, but, like, we all walk, or a lot of us. Now there's gonna be jobs of people just to walk. You're just a, a power walker literally making power for data centers or your next door grocery shop. Like, that might seem crazy right now, but as technology can evolve much faster, and if we can use AI and someone can come up with this faster, my gosh, like, that'll be the next job that… And, you know, 10,000 people will sign up and, "Okay, cool. I'm part of that." Yeah, I'm gonna go out and ride my bike for my career because it's generating electricity for the grid. Exactly. Right. Exactly. It's paying for this podcast. Thank you. And at, at the same time, I'm getting and staying healthy, right?

1:18:04 'Cause I'm getting exercise. Exactly. Exactly. So yeah. That's, that sounds like a utopia, Yuri. I am… I would like us… You know, again, I am- I always want, I wanna be the naive person thinking that we can get to world peace, no war, and everyone can hold their hands. Because I, I think if we don't imagine that, then it won't happen. Some of us have to imagine that it's not just doom, gloom, and war, and death, that there's great things. And there's a few publication, like if people search, it's like the good news, like the people actually wanna show you, like there's actually really cool things happening in the world. So I encourage, again, I, I try to live with this mantra, be hap- We're alive in like the, the best time in the world, whether you like it or not.

1:18:45 Like, throughout history, like there's never been something that we're going through, uh, that we're doing now, and I think we should, yeah, take this opportunity and then be nice and understanding to as many people as possible, make friends, and just enjoy life. It goes by fast. Yeah. Yeah. It definitely does. All of us are on a, uh, a terminal path, but that terminal path can be an exciting journey too, so- Exactly … Rob Greenlee: that's w- what I see the future looking like is Especially if we can fully embrace what's, what changes are happening instead of fighting them and really resisting these, these changes.

1:19:27 And I, I understand it comes from a certain uncertainty that generates fear, and it creates, um, concern about, you know, being able to think about the future. And I think that's probably a good way to end the show tonight, is to talk about that, that future, and that's what we tried to do tonight, is to share our thoughts about the future. And, and both of us don't have the probably the, the answer to that. But there are clues, and a lot of these things, just based on my own 20 years of being in the technology, following technology, and the same with you, is that these things evolve over time. They don't necessarily leap- Mm-hmm … Rob Greenlee: in big leaps.

1:20:10 So what we see today are little glimmers of what's, what's going to develop. Um, we just don't know how far they're going to develop and in what direction they're gonna develop. It's all based on human interests and human participation and human involvement. But I think the thing that I didn't like that I saw happen a couple weeks ago is when all the AI leaders were talking about how AI's gonna kill us all. I thought that that was, that was incorrect. I, I agree. Yeah. Again, um- Yeah … Yuri Kleban: another episode, but definitely for audience, and, and you as well, Rob, like, I could take… talk day and night. I don't see it as black and white, like we talked about.

1:20:52 There's dangers. We could talk about them. There's things that are mitigating. There's, th- there's just, it- it's so nuanced, but at the end of the day, I do again wanna come back to the point, like, I don't see from everything I'm sending, it's not the end of the world. Mm-hmm. AI is not going to kill us. It's not gonna take your toaster and do aw- awful things. It is building some of the coolest th- And people using AI, let's be very real. Yeah. People using AI- Yeah … are doing the coolest things ever, from content creation to innovation, to solving these math problems, to literally how many people have told me, "I use AI, and then it told me to go check for this thing with a doctor, and I found out I have a very specific cancer and I'm treating it early."

1:21:32 Like, it already is serving that stuff. And- Mm-hmm … Yuri Kleban: anyone that, like, it's hard for me to just, like, go with like, "Oh, it's horrible. It sucks. It's gonna kill us all," because I've already seen enough people- Right … see the benefit of it. Yeah. And again, I'm not saying it's perfect. There needs to be a lot of co- There's a lot of topics that still need to be talked about. Power, how do we, again, re- rebalance? We don't want just a few people to have their hands on this. How do we teach the next generation? Because that's really about everyone in our ages are, like, up in arms- We, the most important thing in my mind is get the kids, get them ready, make sure it's, like, they're able to use it, empower them, show them the safety. Just kind of like as people, we were growing up and they told us, like, "Don't go on AOL and talk with a stranger and then go meet them in a store."

1:22:18 Like, we had to learn that. Unfortunately, there was no rules. E- eventually that became the law and, and, and also- Yeah … how we, we interact as humans. I think the same thing, like I would focus on Re- reminding people that are more on the negative side is, like, it- once we can get it right, 'cause it's not perfect today, but I, I do think we can get it more right than wrong, the kids, the future is really what's gonna benefit the most. Forget about you and I even. Right. Right. These are, like, and the next generation who are ideally looking at this as, as creative outlets, as, as improving rather than harming and fighting with each other, 'cause that's what I see mo- most people I know that go to these chat, uh, LLMs, excuse me and they wanna create, do something.

1:22:58 They're not like, "How do I hurt my nextdoor neighbor?" Right. Like, that's- Yeah, I mean, also wouldn't be there. I mean, if you're open enough to get involved in these, you're probably going to think of it as something that you can create something that's beneficial else you wouldn't be there to begin with. So, you know, y- Yuri, it was great to have you on the, on, on the show. We kind of went all over the, the place tonight, but, you know, that's AI for you. It- I told you that's what's gonna happen. It takes you all over the place, so… And it's, and the opportunity is huge. So, so if you wanted to follow the show a little closer, go to newmediashow.com and I've got a newsletter in there that it comes out every week to support an episode of the show, and it has some news headlines, and it has some other capabilities, and it keeps you closer and connected to the show.

1:23:49 I'm gonna increasingly use that show or that newsletter to let people know about the, the guests that I have coming up on the show. So, but yeah, Yuri, it was great to have you on the show, and it, i- is there a great place for somebody that's listening to this to, to go and find you and connect with you? Is it LinkedIn or where is it? Yes. I, I got too late into the Twitter/X game, so I'm on LinkedIn, uh, Yuri Kleivan. Definitely hit me up. Always love talking with people who are trying to do something, working on businesses, coming ideas, have questions about AI. I, yeah, I love talking about it all because a- again, the conversation is what fuels us and connects us as humans.

1:24:31 Yeah. I agree. I agree. It's a, it's an exciting time, but it's also, as usual, it's always a little scary, too, isn't it? That's right. That's right. But that's what makes it interesting. Exactly. So anyway, well, thank you for watching this episode, whether it's live right now or on demand later on as an audio and video podcast on YouTube or LinkedIn or X or you know, or off of the newmediashow.com website. So you can get it all there, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, all those places, too. So Yuri, thank you so much. Yeah. I appreciate it, and good night, everybody, and thank you for being here with us tonight. Thank you.