Are Podcast Networks becoming Creator Networks? | Greg Wasserman #666

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- Welcome to the New Media Show with human

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- host and podcast hall of famer, Rob Greenfield.

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- Well, welcome in The Media Show again. This

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- is episode six sixty six. Are podcast networks

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- becoming

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- really more creator networks?

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- And has the audience

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- for

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- online content that has been previously understood as

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- podcasting

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- getting redefined?

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- And we're going to dive into that. Podcast

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- networks were originally built for audio first space

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- with the podcasting

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- industry, but audiences

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- have already moved the definition

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- of a podcast

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- beyond audio. Today, a podcast can be a

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- YouTube show, a Spotify video, an Apple video

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- podcast, a live stream, a short clip, a

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- newsletter,

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- or related to a newsletter,

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- and part of a community or a creator

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- led media brand

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- that is a changing network model. Podcasting is

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- still important as a lane, but now it's

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- one format inside of a larger new media

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- ecosystem

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- is what I'm seeing right now.

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- It seems like the next generation of podcast

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- networks

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- may need to become creator networks built around

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- trust, audience

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- relationships

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- and the message and

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- some form of productization

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- to create monetization.

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- So and then AI transparency

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- and community and live experiences.

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- And so the whole landscape is evolving.

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- My name is Rob Greenlee, and I'm a

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- podcast hall of fame inductee, longtime new media

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- and podcasting executive.

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- This show covers the future of new media

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- and the creator economy, podcasting,

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- audio and video, plus AI, AI content, and

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- even

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- AI licensing

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- of content now is increasingly,

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- coming to my vision here of what the

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- future is looking like. And I'm joined by

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- a terrific guest, Greg

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- Wasserman, who's the head of relationships

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- at rss.com,

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- as well as has his own podcast.

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- He hosts the podcast network insight. So he's

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- trying to drive clarity to what's going on,

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- trying to understand the business of podcast networks.

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- And I think it's great to have you,

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- Greg, on the show here to talk about

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- this interesting kind of change topic. And I

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- don't know if you're feeling it too, but

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- why don't you give me a little bit

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- of perspective on on

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- what you think about where podcast networks are

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- today? And do you feel this

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- pull towards

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- it being redefined into something else now, like

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- a creator network?

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- Well, I mean, always good to chat with

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- you. Honored to join it in a all

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- right,

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- we get to have these conversations offline, but

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- then to actually do it and have everyone

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- else listen, it's kind of fun.

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- It's interesting because when I think about the

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- answers

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- So, yeah, I'm host of Podcast Network Insights.

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- I'm interviewing the heads of Podcast Networks. And

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- the basis of it was, one, I'm seeing

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- a lot of podcasters feel that in order

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- to grow, they need to join a network.

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- And so

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- if you don't know what networks exist, you're

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- gonna end up joining the names that you

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- and I both know about, which are media

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- companies, whether the iHeart, Sirius, and so forth.

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- But are those the right fit for these

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- podcasters

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- of all different sizes?

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- And so figured, hey, let's go ahead and

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- understand the the stories for each of these

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- networks.

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- A lot of them are niche in their

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- own verticals, whether you've got the OGGN,

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- which is oil and gas, or, marketing podcast

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- network, which is just marketing.

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- But you could find a fit for whatever

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- it may be. And I think to answer

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- your question,

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- each network

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- is

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- is answering the question, because I start every

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- show, how do you describe describe podcast networks?

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- And each one has described it differently.

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- But there's a core to it, and the

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- core usually around,

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- community.

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- And now how they describe community is not

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- necessarily how we would be thinking, you know,

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- community.

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- It's more of a matter of like minded

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- shows, not necessarily the

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- the the

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- they're creating a community of these shows. It's

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- so it's like, if you and I had

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- the same kind of show, we would not

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- be interacting.

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- But in some networks, we are created that

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- interaction between the networks. So I think each

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- one's just looking at it incredibly different. And

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- that's what I think is exciting about. So

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- if we look at new media and where

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- podcast networks are going,

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- they're all

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- trying to solve, in a sense, the same

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- issue.

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- How do we how do we grow?

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- How do we monetize?

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- How do we create a community?

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- The difference is is each one of them

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- is looking at it as, are they background

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- in media sales? So they're looking at it

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- from a monetization. How do we make as

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- much money and help these shows grow, Which

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- then becomes kind of like a a, rep

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- firm.

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- You know, you've got community which is core

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- to it, where it's like, hey,

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- better together. So how do we just bring

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- us all together and and go from there?

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- And many are also, of course, you always

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- ask the question, where's video come in? Live

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- is becoming a big piece for a lot

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- of them. So I think there's no real

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- answer, and it's evolving,

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- than just a

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- group of shows that were just doing podcasting.

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- Yeah. I think it has kind of expanded

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- the the scope, and I think the entrance

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- of video in here

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- has has really kinda shaken everything up. Because

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- I think when when these podcast networks really

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- the concept of them

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- over the last ten, twelve years

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- or so

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- was really built around audio experiences. Right? So

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- in this concept of community, which you've now

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- added another layer to this conversation, which is

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- the community

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- inside of the network,

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- not the community that's being built outside of

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- the network. Right? So there's two communities that

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- could be being worked on here. Technically,

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- three if you add the the community of

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- the actual podcaster. Right? So the podcaster is

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- their their community.

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- The network

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- is the community of shows, and then the

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- the network of of those community of shows.

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- The audience too. I mean, audience comes into

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- play here too. So if you have a

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- a network that's

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- built around a common theme, right? Or a

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- mission or,

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- or, you know, like all the shows are

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- all around, you know, building human health and

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- things like that. If that's your overriding theme,

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- then all the shows that pile in here

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- are all about

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- building human health. Right? So that's a community

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- in a core itself, because they all have

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- a common interest. Right.

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- But then that's going to drive

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- a community

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- out there of audiences

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- too.

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- So, you know, how does the the network

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- get involved in kind of

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- balancing those two

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- elements here? Because the external stuff or the

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- audience side of it is

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- probably as much or more important. And as

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- you look to the future becoming increasingly important

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- as more and more shows shift towards more

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- building, more private communities,

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- that, that are have subscriptions behind them and

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- things like that. As we kind of head

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- back to

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- like what podcasting was in the terminology anyway

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- of subscribe to my podcast. Right. But now

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- subscribe to a podcast means that you're subscribing

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- to a private community that you maybe have

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- to pay for. So would you talk about

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- that a little bit?

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- I mean, if I like, what we're talking

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- right now, what comes to mind is my

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- conversation,

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- with Rachel from Nova,

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- Nova Entertainment, Nova Podcast Network, which is an

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- Australian based. And so I asked her, like,

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- hey, do you do anything from a community

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- standpoint? She's like, well, no one's ever really

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- asked. Like, our podcasters haven't really asked for

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- connection among each other. And so they're more

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- of, you know, Nova is kind of a

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- a a large media company, like a radio

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- entertainment company based in Australia. So they're looking

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- specifically for an Australian audience in the shows

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- that would be based for an Australian audience.

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- So you can aggregate

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- eight, nine, 10,000,000,

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- users that way. And then, of course, expand

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- it to more than just podcasting. But if

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- you look at Nova, they started off as

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- a media company. So media, just like in

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- iHeart, is a radio company.

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- I started with CBS, so now it's Odysee,

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- the radio company. They're all moving into

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- social

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- video because they realize it's where dollars are,

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- but now you're staffing up a different team

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- to to leverage that.

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- But at the same time, those companies aren't

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- also thinking about what we described as a

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- community. Like, hey, how do I bring our

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- shows together,

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- not just to sell them as a package,

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- but so that they can learn from each

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- other. So that you and I, if we're

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- on your network, we're going, hey, introduce Greg

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- and Rob and let you guys do cross

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- promos, let you guys handle that as opposed

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- to the network that's gonna operate them. Going,

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- like, well, if you want to, I could

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- do the cross promos. So there's operational sides

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- to it that each network's looking at, which

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- will now you add in multiple layers of

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- media,

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- not just podcast, but you're looking at social,

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- you're looking at video, you're looking at live

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- that adds even more levels of complexity that

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- depending on the operational side of the network

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- and how they've set themselves up,

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- maybe

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- something they don't do, or maybe it is

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- exactly what they're able to do.

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- Yeah. I think in some ways, we're going

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- back to somewhat of an earlier era of

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- podcasting. If we're gonna head down this path

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- of of collaboration,

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- genre

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- collaboration between creators,

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- which we've been kind of running against for

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- a while because of,

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- people's feeling of, you know, competition. Right. So

267
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- if there's another show out there that's

268
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- got the same topic or the same related

269
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- audience,

270
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- they want to hold on to that audience.

271
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- Right. So they don't

272
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- inherently

273
00:10:00.139 --> 00:10:02.299
- want to cooperate with a show that they

274
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- feel like could siphon audience from them. Right.

275
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- But are we heading back to a time

276
00:10:08.154 --> 00:10:10.095
- when we really need to

277
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- collaborate with other creators to build a a

278
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- bigger value equation to audiences?

279
00:10:17.595 --> 00:10:19.620
- I mean, if we're looking at what's old

280
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- is new or or if we look at

281
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- just the fact

282
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- that podcasting has moved into this new evolution

283
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- and where we're asking, what is a podcast?

284
00:10:29.059 --> 00:10:31.220
- Right? But if we're looking at what is

285
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- a podcast and it's being led by, I

286
00:10:33.174 --> 00:10:34.934
- think we were talking in before we started

287
00:10:34.934 --> 00:10:37.174
- recording, and it's being led in a sense

288
00:10:37.174 --> 00:10:39.735
- by the media companies. It's now the Hot

289
00:10:39.735 --> 00:10:42.375
- Words, so we'll talk about that. And and

290
00:10:42.375 --> 00:10:45.334
- we'll call it, you know, Netflix had the

291
00:10:45.334 --> 00:10:47.190
- deal, and they're doing a big thing on

292
00:10:47.429 --> 00:10:47.929
- podcasting,

293
00:10:48.870 --> 00:10:50.009
- Spotify with podcasting.

294
00:10:50.470 --> 00:10:51.909
- They're throughout the end of the day, they're

295
00:10:51.909 --> 00:10:53.990
- media companies and that's how they're looking at

296
00:10:53.990 --> 00:10:56.090
- this. So from our standpoint,

297
00:10:56.629 --> 00:10:58.629
- if we know that they're being run as

298
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- media companies,

299
00:11:02.434 --> 00:11:04.034
- wow, I just lost my train of thought

300
00:11:04.034 --> 00:11:04.274
- here.

301
00:11:06.274 --> 00:11:08.595
- If they're being run as media companies, then

302
00:11:08.595 --> 00:11:09.414
- they're controlling

303
00:11:10.914 --> 00:11:13.315
- how that shows up. And so your question

304
00:11:13.315 --> 00:11:13.815
- is,

305
00:11:14.690 --> 00:11:15.429
- are are

306
00:11:16.049 --> 00:11:17.670
- are we creating this this

307
00:11:18.690 --> 00:11:21.009
- this connection of shows? But if the re

308
00:11:21.009 --> 00:11:22.649
- and run is media companies, we just have

309
00:11:22.649 --> 00:11:26.049
- to look at your standard media companies. Channel

310
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- two with,

311
00:11:27.585 --> 00:11:29.264
- 25732,

312
00:11:29.264 --> 00:11:29.764
- whatever

313
00:11:30.384 --> 00:11:32.465
- country or state you're in, you know, your

314
00:11:32.465 --> 00:11:34.565
- core your core network channels,

315
00:11:35.184 --> 00:11:37.345
- they're all promoting their own shows on that

316
00:11:37.345 --> 00:11:40.085
- channel. So ABC is promoting their own shows.

317
00:11:40.250 --> 00:11:42.089
- NBC is promoting their own shows. Fox is

318
00:11:42.089 --> 00:11:43.689
- promoting their own shows. Like, those are in

319
00:11:43.689 --> 00:11:46.169
- a sense the TV networks. And that's exactly

320
00:11:46.169 --> 00:11:48.669
- how we're running things now. So it's ultimately

321
00:11:48.809 --> 00:11:50.889
- looking at, are you a TV network? It's

322
00:11:50.889 --> 00:11:53.450
- a podcast network. It's just a media company

323
00:11:53.450 --> 00:11:55.309
- as its core. And so

324
00:11:55.995 --> 00:11:58.235
- a show that it's on, you know, the

325
00:11:58.235 --> 00:11:59.615
- the your network,

326
00:12:00.075 --> 00:12:01.995
- you guys are gonna all promote each other,

327
00:12:01.995 --> 00:12:02.495
- but

328
00:12:03.195 --> 00:12:05.434
- you would probably also promote shows outside of

329
00:12:05.434 --> 00:12:08.154
- your network just because that's the ecosystem that

330
00:12:08.154 --> 00:12:08.975
- you've created.

331
00:12:09.419 --> 00:12:11.980
- But in many cases, no, they're gonna keep

332
00:12:11.980 --> 00:12:15.100
- that ecosystem inside. You're never gonna hear a

333
00:12:15.100 --> 00:12:18.879
- ABC show promoted on NBC. That's that's blasphemy.

334
00:12:20.460 --> 00:12:22.139
- You know, I remember when I was selling

335
00:12:22.139 --> 00:12:23.580
- media and we were like, hey, I could

336
00:12:23.580 --> 00:12:25.914
- get these media dollars to to promote a

337
00:12:25.914 --> 00:12:28.235
- universal movie, and I was working for CBS.

338
00:12:28.235 --> 00:12:28.975
- And they're like,

339
00:12:29.355 --> 00:12:31.115
- we don't want that. Like, we we have

340
00:12:31.115 --> 00:12:33.695
- to promote, you know, the Viacom or,

341
00:12:34.475 --> 00:12:36.954
- CBS stuff. And it's like, guys, dollars is

342
00:12:36.954 --> 00:12:38.554
- dollars. Yeah. But we don't wanna take those

343
00:12:38.554 --> 00:12:40.529
- people away. So it's to your point, we

344
00:12:40.529 --> 00:12:42.610
- don't wanna remove the audience. But if you're

345
00:12:42.610 --> 00:12:44.290
- treating it like a media company in that

346
00:12:44.290 --> 00:12:47.090
- regards, then, yes. If you're not treating it

347
00:12:47.090 --> 00:12:47.590
- as,

348
00:12:48.290 --> 00:12:50.129
- hold on, I can promote this. This is

349
00:12:50.129 --> 00:12:52.129
- good for my audience. This is good for

350
00:12:52.129 --> 00:12:54.529
- what I'm doing. Mhmm. Then you're not gonna

351
00:12:54.529 --> 00:12:56.205
- have that, that mindset.

352
00:12:57.464 --> 00:12:59.004
- And if you go back to the,

353
00:12:59.464 --> 00:13:02.264
- the, the models really that have aligned with

354
00:13:02.264 --> 00:13:03.804
- what you're talking about with

355
00:13:04.264 --> 00:13:06.845
- the, the larger media companies, is that oftentimes

356
00:13:06.985 --> 00:13:08.205
- those shows are,

357
00:13:08.690 --> 00:13:10.690
- you know, probably a little bit more considered

358
00:13:10.690 --> 00:13:13.250
- to be owned and operated for on, on

359
00:13:13.250 --> 00:13:15.169
- the network. So you do have this spectrum,

360
00:13:15.169 --> 00:13:16.389
- right? Of some networks

361
00:13:16.850 --> 00:13:17.669
- are aggregating,

362
00:13:18.850 --> 00:13:21.970
- independent creators, and then other ones are creating

363
00:13:21.970 --> 00:13:23.029
- a certain percentage

364
00:13:23.605 --> 00:13:25.924
- of shows that are considered to be owned

365
00:13:25.924 --> 00:13:27.865
- and operated by, by the network,

366
00:13:29.044 --> 00:13:30.985
- that re you know, really fund

367
00:13:31.285 --> 00:13:33.845
- the development of it and, and really take

368
00:13:33.845 --> 00:13:35.845
- care of the whole thing and are owned

369
00:13:35.845 --> 00:13:37.764
- by the network. And then the, the there's

370
00:13:37.764 --> 00:13:39.539
- other shows on the network

371
00:13:39.919 --> 00:13:40.419
- that

372
00:13:40.879 --> 00:13:43.600
- are really run by independent creators that had

373
00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:45.699
- just have a license deal.

374
00:13:46.079 --> 00:13:47.519
- Yeah. You know, like a rev share deal

375
00:13:47.519 --> 00:13:49.679
- with, with those, those partners. You know, I

376
00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:51.600
- used to work at podcast one years ago

377
00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:53.195
- and that's what we did. You know, I

378
00:13:53.195 --> 00:13:55.274
- think we had like 12 owned and operated

379
00:13:55.274 --> 00:13:55.774
- shows

380
00:13:56.315 --> 00:13:58.174
- and, and like 180,

381
00:13:59.674 --> 00:14:01.214
- you know, rev share shows

382
00:14:01.595 --> 00:14:03.754
- that ones that weren't really produced by us,

383
00:14:03.754 --> 00:14:04.735
- but maybe had

384
00:14:05.115 --> 00:14:06.495
- a, a partial production

385
00:14:07.034 --> 00:14:08.095
- contract, but

386
00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:10.799
- most of them were independently produced and all

387
00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:12.159
- that kind of stuff. So you have that

388
00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:13.779
- spectrum in here too, that,

389
00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:16.259
- that really kind of,

390
00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:19.440
- makes it, you know, if it's owned and

391
00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:22.414
- operated, you're more likely to do cross promotion

392
00:14:22.475 --> 00:14:25.375
- across the network. Right. But if you're independent

393
00:14:25.434 --> 00:14:28.634
- show and all those creators are competing with

394
00:14:28.634 --> 00:14:30.794
- each other for audience, it's a little bit

395
00:14:30.794 --> 00:14:33.115
- of a tougher ask to get them to

396
00:14:33.115 --> 00:14:35.514
- cooperate with each other. And I think, you

397
00:14:35.514 --> 00:14:36.894
- know, is there a

398
00:14:38.009 --> 00:14:40.250
- new reason for doing that now?

399
00:14:41.690 --> 00:14:44.350
- That's, that's really, I think the bigger question.

400
00:14:44.570 --> 00:14:46.909
- I think if we go back to this

401
00:14:46.970 --> 00:14:48.909
- model of the media companies,

402
00:14:49.835 --> 00:14:52.014
- what are media companies actually focused

403
00:14:52.555 --> 00:14:53.375
- on? It's revenue,

404
00:14:54.075 --> 00:14:56.335
- and revenue and from the monetization

405
00:14:56.715 --> 00:14:59.134
- of ads and sponsorships and,

406
00:15:00.235 --> 00:15:01.529
- the stuff I used to sell.

407
00:15:02.570 --> 00:15:04.570
- But the joys of at least the the

408
00:15:04.570 --> 00:15:06.250
- guests I have on my show is they're

409
00:15:06.250 --> 00:15:08.330
- not all monetized in that way. I think

410
00:15:08.330 --> 00:15:11.529
- the creator economy, but just the the economy

411
00:15:11.529 --> 00:15:12.750
- as it's as a whole,

412
00:15:13.290 --> 00:15:15.529
- doesn't lend itself to the only way you

413
00:15:15.529 --> 00:15:18.164
- can make money is through ads and sponsorships.

414
00:15:18.465 --> 00:15:19.904
- Correct. I look at,

415
00:15:21.745 --> 00:15:24.945
- Jason Falls and the Marketing Podcast Network. You've

416
00:15:24.945 --> 00:15:27.825
- got an aggregation of 80 marketing shows. They

417
00:15:27.825 --> 00:15:30.065
- don't do a lot from a monetization of

418
00:15:30.065 --> 00:15:30.565
- ads,

419
00:15:31.139 --> 00:15:34.179
- but the fact that these shows are heads

420
00:15:34.179 --> 00:15:35.559
- of marketing departments,

421
00:15:36.339 --> 00:15:39.399
- marketing experts, so they're able to get clients,

422
00:15:39.459 --> 00:15:42.279
- collaborate from a understanding of working,

423
00:15:44.065 --> 00:15:46.705
- unique industry knowledge. That way, they're making more

424
00:15:46.705 --> 00:15:47.205
- money

425
00:15:47.665 --> 00:15:49.904
- that than they would on ads. Now, talking

426
00:15:49.904 --> 00:15:51.504
- with Jason, I'm like, you guys should probably

427
00:15:51.504 --> 00:15:52.804
- be doing more ads,

428
00:15:53.424 --> 00:15:54.644
- not just because

429
00:15:56.230 --> 00:15:58.069
- that is that is a revenue arm that

430
00:15:58.069 --> 00:16:00.309
- you can look at, but you're aggregating 80

431
00:16:00.309 --> 00:16:02.730
- shows that are focused on just marketing.

432
00:16:03.350 --> 00:16:05.350
- A media buyer out there should be saying,

433
00:16:05.350 --> 00:16:07.669
- hold on, I know the volume is low,

434
00:16:07.669 --> 00:16:10.695
- but the target audience is incredibly the key

435
00:16:10.695 --> 00:16:11.754
- people I want.

436
00:16:12.134 --> 00:16:14.695
- And that becomes the mismatch between how do

437
00:16:14.695 --> 00:16:16.294
- you get in front of buyers, what I

438
00:16:16.294 --> 00:16:18.855
- used to do, and a network like Jason's

439
00:16:18.855 --> 00:16:20.375
- where it's, like, I don't have the time

440
00:16:20.375 --> 00:16:21.735
- or energy to go out there and try

441
00:16:21.735 --> 00:16:23.575
- and fight with these agencies and these media

442
00:16:23.575 --> 00:16:25.649
- buyers. So, I'm gonna focus on the monetization

443
00:16:25.870 --> 00:16:26.370
- of

444
00:16:26.910 --> 00:16:28.910
- how do we do other things beyond just

445
00:16:28.910 --> 00:16:31.070
- ads. And I think that is why you're

446
00:16:31.070 --> 00:16:33.170
- able to do a lot more with

447
00:16:34.110 --> 00:16:36.910
- monetizing your audience, not just with podcasts and

448
00:16:36.910 --> 00:16:37.410
- sponsorships,

449
00:16:38.205 --> 00:16:39.884
- but you throw in your YouTube, you throw

450
00:16:39.884 --> 00:16:41.965
- in live, you throw in courses, you throw

451
00:16:41.965 --> 00:16:43.904
- in whatever it is you want to monetize.

452
00:16:44.605 --> 00:16:46.045
- You just have to find the right network

453
00:16:46.045 --> 00:16:46.545
- that

454
00:16:47.245 --> 00:16:49.345
- that that is their model. Right.

455
00:16:50.285 --> 00:16:51.184
- Yeah. It's interesting.

456
00:16:51.565 --> 00:16:53.839
- I I didn't notice that Jay Shetty,

457
00:16:54.220 --> 00:16:56.959
- basically pulled his show out of today,

458
00:16:57.899 --> 00:16:59.440
- out of YouTube and

459
00:17:00.139 --> 00:17:02.879
- going all in on the, on the podcast,

460
00:17:03.019 --> 00:17:03.519
- Spotify.

461
00:17:04.140 --> 00:17:07.259
- Yeah. Right. Right. And in the Netflix deal,

462
00:17:07.259 --> 00:17:07.759
- which

463
00:17:08.134 --> 00:17:10.535
- it's really an interesting deal that's going on

464
00:17:10.535 --> 00:17:12.475
- there with Netflix. And

465
00:17:13.174 --> 00:17:15.115
- I wonder if they're going to

466
00:17:16.615 --> 00:17:19.335
- going to actually last doing this, because if

467
00:17:19.335 --> 00:17:21.190
- you think about, you know, I think in

468
00:17:21.190 --> 00:17:22.890
- the early years, a couple of years ago,

469
00:17:23.590 --> 00:17:25.430
- Joe Rogan did the same thing. He, he

470
00:17:25.430 --> 00:17:27.130
- basically pulled himself out of

471
00:17:27.509 --> 00:17:28.570
- the RSS side

472
00:17:28.950 --> 00:17:31.450
- and went all Spotify. Right. And

473
00:17:31.910 --> 00:17:34.784
- eventually that kind of bailed on that. Right.

474
00:17:34.784 --> 00:17:37.105
- And they went back to open distribution again.

475
00:17:37.105 --> 00:17:39.184
- And then here we see it cycle through

476
00:17:39.184 --> 00:17:39.684
- again,

477
00:17:40.144 --> 00:17:42.865
- and it's happening through Netflix, which in a

478
00:17:42.865 --> 00:17:43.605
- lot of ways,

479
00:17:44.304 --> 00:17:46.704
- Netflix, I would throw in the bucket of

480
00:17:46.704 --> 00:17:47.524
- being a network

481
00:17:48.899 --> 00:17:50.579
- because they have their own intros. They're a

482
00:17:50.579 --> 00:17:53.960
- media company. Exactly. Right. And they're, they're also,

483
00:17:54.740 --> 00:17:57.079
- licensing on rev share deals. I'm sure

484
00:17:57.460 --> 00:18:00.740
- with external creators or their licensing right content

485
00:18:00.740 --> 00:18:02.775
- into their platform. I mean, I don't know

486
00:18:02.775 --> 00:18:04.375
- how many old movies you see in there,

487
00:18:04.375 --> 00:18:05.434
- but there's a lot.

488
00:18:06.215 --> 00:18:07.195
- So you can see

489
00:18:07.575 --> 00:18:09.894
- this, you know, what's happening with Netflix is

490
00:18:09.894 --> 00:18:11.275
- becoming probably the,

491
00:18:11.975 --> 00:18:14.134
- the largest, well, I don't know if the

492
00:18:14.134 --> 00:18:16.775
- largest, probably YouTube is the largest network at

493
00:18:16.775 --> 00:18:18.679
- this point. Yeah. But,

494
00:18:18.980 --> 00:18:21.460
- but this whole Netflix model and how they're

495
00:18:21.460 --> 00:18:22.359
- leaning into

496
00:18:22.980 --> 00:18:24.519
- independent creator content

497
00:18:25.139 --> 00:18:27.799
- is, is quite a brand shift for them.

498
00:18:28.339 --> 00:18:30.980
- And so, you know, are you factoring in

499
00:18:30.980 --> 00:18:32.519
- what you're doing with covering

500
00:18:33.194 --> 00:18:34.095
- podcast networks

501
00:18:34.634 --> 00:18:37.214
- into expanding it even into, let's say,

502
00:18:37.595 --> 00:18:38.974
- a network like a Netflix?

503
00:18:39.355 --> 00:18:41.515
- I would love to. I mean, the show

504
00:18:41.515 --> 00:18:42.414
- has no

505
00:18:43.755 --> 00:18:44.815
- Balance. Right?

506
00:18:45.140 --> 00:18:46.740
- I mean, in a sense, like, it you

507
00:18:46.740 --> 00:18:48.900
- have to be a network define a network.

508
00:18:48.900 --> 00:18:50.600
- Like, I've got shows in there.

509
00:18:51.220 --> 00:18:53.380
- I look at Becky Mollenkamp who had on,

510
00:18:53.380 --> 00:18:55.320
- which is the feminist podcast collective,

511
00:18:55.940 --> 00:18:57.240
- and, like, it's called

512
00:18:57.700 --> 00:18:59.700
- it's technically a network, but she calls it

513
00:18:59.700 --> 00:19:00.279
- a collective.

514
00:19:01.184 --> 00:19:03.825
- Everyone hosts on their own platform, and it's

515
00:19:03.825 --> 00:19:05.744
- more of just a community that she's brought

516
00:19:05.744 --> 00:19:07.924
- together that creates this educational

517
00:19:08.224 --> 00:19:09.284
- environment for

518
00:19:09.664 --> 00:19:11.444
- a value based,

519
00:19:12.625 --> 00:19:14.404
- collective of shows. And

520
00:19:14.769 --> 00:19:16.929
- And that is a very different business model

521
00:19:16.929 --> 00:19:19.170
- and different network model than as you and

522
00:19:19.170 --> 00:19:21.730
- I are describing right now about Netflix. But,

523
00:19:22.450 --> 00:19:24.529
- I'll have iHeart on there. I had Nova

524
00:19:24.529 --> 00:19:26.369
- on there. So, like, they're all running different

525
00:19:26.369 --> 00:19:26.835
- kind of

526
00:19:27.394 --> 00:19:28.454
- business models.

527
00:19:28.914 --> 00:19:29.414
- And

528
00:19:29.714 --> 00:19:31.954
- what defines success is one of the questions

529
00:19:31.954 --> 00:19:33.714
- that people ask me. It's like, hey, how

530
00:19:33.714 --> 00:19:35.095
- do they define this success?

531
00:19:35.554 --> 00:19:38.034
- Each person is gonna define success completely different.

532
00:19:38.034 --> 00:19:40.115
- Netflix right now is looking at it. A,

533
00:19:40.115 --> 00:19:40.934
- they're stockholders,

534
00:19:41.650 --> 00:19:43.730
- you know. We're looking at it from an

535
00:19:43.730 --> 00:19:46.069
- industry standpoint. How many times in their

536
00:19:46.769 --> 00:19:49.829
- quarterly report are they mentioning the word podcast?

537
00:19:50.210 --> 00:19:51.970
- And then we're talking about that from an

538
00:19:51.970 --> 00:19:54.929
- industry standpoint. But what defines a podcast? Well,

539
00:19:54.929 --> 00:19:57.684
- right now, podcasting is hot. So, of course,

540
00:19:57.684 --> 00:19:59.065
- they're gonna call that out.

541
00:19:59.365 --> 00:20:01.765
- Well, and they're playing into that Yes. That

542
00:20:01.765 --> 00:20:03.684
- kind of kind of narrative that I leaded

543
00:20:03.684 --> 00:20:05.785
- into is that is that

544
00:20:06.085 --> 00:20:08.505
- the the term podcast is now really

545
00:20:08.805 --> 00:20:11.305
- more appropriate to how the audience views

546
00:20:11.650 --> 00:20:12.470
- this content.

547
00:20:13.170 --> 00:20:15.029
- And, and it's less of

548
00:20:15.410 --> 00:20:15.990
- a RSS,

549
00:20:16.289 --> 00:20:19.569
- you know, based distribution methodology. It's more about

550
00:20:19.569 --> 00:20:21.429
- what the audience thinks it is,

551
00:20:21.890 --> 00:20:23.670
- is what's defining it.

552
00:20:24.485 --> 00:20:26.565
- But the whole concept of a collective, like

553
00:20:26.565 --> 00:20:28.725
- you were just talking about, is an interesting

554
00:20:28.725 --> 00:20:29.705
- one because it's

555
00:20:30.085 --> 00:20:31.625
- it's almost like a subgroup

556
00:20:31.924 --> 00:20:34.025
- of a podcast network. Right? It's

557
00:20:34.565 --> 00:20:36.485
- it has a lot of the elements of

558
00:20:36.485 --> 00:20:38.884
- a podcast network, but yet at the same

559
00:20:38.884 --> 00:20:39.900
- time, maybe it's

560
00:20:40.380 --> 00:20:42.299
- it's a concept that's a little bit more

561
00:20:42.299 --> 00:20:42.960
- of a

562
00:20:43.660 --> 00:20:44.160
- collaboration

563
00:20:44.940 --> 00:20:45.440
- network.

564
00:20:45.820 --> 00:20:47.500
- So would you say that that's true based

565
00:20:47.500 --> 00:20:49.420
- on what your understanding of what a collective

566
00:20:49.420 --> 00:20:50.799
- is versus a network?

567
00:20:52.619 --> 00:20:54.160
- How she describes it

568
00:20:54.715 --> 00:20:56.795
- and how we would describe it, I think

569
00:20:56.795 --> 00:20:57.295
- are

570
00:20:57.595 --> 00:20:59.355
- are Almost the same. To debate. Right? Well,

571
00:20:59.355 --> 00:21:01.515
- no. Not not almost the same, but, like,

572
00:21:01.515 --> 00:21:03.275
- how you would describe what is a podcast

573
00:21:03.275 --> 00:21:05.134
- network and how Becky's describing

574
00:21:05.515 --> 00:21:08.015
- her collective as a podcast network,

575
00:21:08.519 --> 00:21:10.519
- that's what I love. Like, every person has

576
00:21:10.519 --> 00:21:11.500
- answered the question

577
00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:12.380
- different.

578
00:21:13.160 --> 00:21:15.080
- Part of it is based on their background.

579
00:21:15.080 --> 00:21:16.380
- Part of it is is,

580
00:21:17.559 --> 00:21:19.500
- what they view a network

581
00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:21.799
- to be even if they're not operating in

582
00:21:21.799 --> 00:21:23.500
- this the same way that they would,

583
00:21:23.984 --> 00:21:24.964
- answer that question.

584
00:21:25.744 --> 00:21:28.464
- But I truly believe they're all looking at

585
00:21:28.464 --> 00:21:31.365
- it as it's a it's a aggregation

586
00:21:31.825 --> 00:21:32.805
- of shows,

587
00:21:34.065 --> 00:21:34.565
- and

588
00:21:35.025 --> 00:21:37.744
- how they operate is very differently. Whether it's

589
00:21:37.744 --> 00:21:38.884
- a production company

590
00:21:39.349 --> 00:21:39.849
- that

591
00:21:40.309 --> 00:21:42.710
- ultimately is running a network, which I think

592
00:21:42.710 --> 00:21:44.869
- more production companies should be operating as a

593
00:21:44.869 --> 00:21:47.590
- network, or at least production companies should be

594
00:21:47.590 --> 00:21:50.549
- partnering with networks because, let's be honest, you

595
00:21:50.549 --> 00:21:52.734
- and I both know, if you're doing a

596
00:21:52.734 --> 00:21:53.234
- podcast

597
00:21:53.535 --> 00:21:55.714
- and you're working with a production company,

598
00:21:56.255 --> 00:21:58.095
- well, the only way you keep paying that

599
00:21:58.095 --> 00:21:59.775
- production company is if you grow, and if

600
00:21:59.775 --> 00:22:01.454
- that production company is not there to do

601
00:22:01.454 --> 00:22:03.214
- your marketing for you, and you still always,

602
00:22:03.214 --> 00:22:05.075
- no matter what, have to do that marketing,

603
00:22:05.320 --> 00:22:07.160
- That production company should probably go, like, hey,

604
00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:08.779
- let me go find who these networks

605
00:22:09.240 --> 00:22:11.080
- are based on the shows I have and

606
00:22:11.080 --> 00:22:12.920
- go, hey, I got this I got this,

607
00:22:13.320 --> 00:22:14.220
- Farm League,

608
00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:16.859
- podcaster here that I'm starting

609
00:22:17.160 --> 00:22:19.454
- to starting to do my show with, and

610
00:22:19.534 --> 00:22:21.054
- and you should look at that. Right? Like,

611
00:22:21.054 --> 00:22:22.595
- there's so much more opportunities

612
00:22:23.134 --> 00:22:24.434
- are wrong across

613
00:22:24.815 --> 00:22:26.654
- the industry that we could look at beyond

614
00:22:26.654 --> 00:22:27.154
- just

615
00:22:27.855 --> 00:22:30.194
- how do we make money at a ad

616
00:22:30.255 --> 00:22:30.755
- supported,

617
00:22:31.375 --> 00:22:31.875
- medium.

618
00:22:33.694 --> 00:22:34.194
- Yeah.

619
00:22:35.220 --> 00:22:37.140
- As we look to the future of this,

620
00:22:37.140 --> 00:22:40.339
- I, you know, this, this kind of tension

621
00:22:40.339 --> 00:22:43.700
- that exists between independent creators considering joining a

622
00:22:43.700 --> 00:22:45.859
- network or being a part of something like

623
00:22:45.859 --> 00:22:48.179
- that. I kind of feel it in my

624
00:22:48.179 --> 00:22:50.535
- own work with, with networks is that a

625
00:22:50.535 --> 00:22:52.075
- lot of creators are kind of

626
00:22:52.775 --> 00:22:53.275
- unsure

627
00:22:53.575 --> 00:22:54.075
- about

628
00:22:54.455 --> 00:22:57.734
- whether or not there's enough value to make

629
00:22:57.734 --> 00:22:59.994
- a commitment to a to a network. But

630
00:23:00.295 --> 00:23:01.515
- in some ways, there's

631
00:23:01.815 --> 00:23:04.394
- so little downside to doing it that it's

632
00:23:04.775 --> 00:23:05.275
- it's

633
00:23:05.980 --> 00:23:08.539
- it sometimes feels like it's trivial that they

634
00:23:08.539 --> 00:23:09.679
- decide not to.

635
00:23:10.859 --> 00:23:12.619
- But, but I guess it's kind of a

636
00:23:12.619 --> 00:23:15.519
- personal choice thing. So how would you answer

637
00:23:15.819 --> 00:23:17.980
- somebody that's like been doing a show for

638
00:23:17.980 --> 00:23:19.359
- two or three years and,

639
00:23:19.734 --> 00:23:21.575
- and is trying to decide if they're gonna

640
00:23:21.575 --> 00:23:24.134
- join this or that network or a collective

641
00:23:24.134 --> 00:23:25.355
- or something like that.

642
00:23:25.734 --> 00:23:26.534
- What would you,

643
00:23:27.095 --> 00:23:30.554
- advise them as a as a method for

644
00:23:30.855 --> 00:23:33.355
- choosing whether or not to join a particular

645
00:23:33.414 --> 00:23:33.914
- network?

646
00:23:34.789 --> 00:23:37.269
- I always say understand your why. I think,

647
00:23:37.509 --> 00:23:38.789
- one of the things I've got and I'm

648
00:23:38.789 --> 00:23:40.630
- working on from a trading based on this

649
00:23:40.630 --> 00:23:43.190
- is if you understand your why of why

650
00:23:43.190 --> 00:23:45.669
- you're podcasting, therefore, how you want us to

651
00:23:45.669 --> 00:23:47.450
- make money doing it. So

652
00:23:47.750 --> 00:23:48.250
- if,

653
00:23:49.235 --> 00:23:51.875
- if I take take Jason's in the Marketing

654
00:23:51.875 --> 00:23:53.955
- Podcast Network, I'm like, I'm not in this

655
00:23:53.955 --> 00:23:56.355
- to make money on sponsorships and ads, I'm

656
00:23:56.355 --> 00:23:58.755
- in this to be around a group of,

657
00:23:58.755 --> 00:24:00.535
- like, minded marketing shows,

658
00:24:01.349 --> 00:24:01.849
- then

659
00:24:02.230 --> 00:24:03.829
- why wouldn't I join this? Now the only

660
00:24:03.829 --> 00:24:06.410
- reason you wouldn't maybe wanna join this is

661
00:24:06.710 --> 00:24:08.650
- you would then have to change your host,

662
00:24:09.190 --> 00:24:12.410
- move to the hosting platform that Jason's operating

663
00:24:12.630 --> 00:24:14.174
- out of, and you may be like, oh,

664
00:24:14.174 --> 00:24:16.335
- that's too much work. Yes, that saves me

665
00:24:16.335 --> 00:24:18.575
- some money on the hosting cost fees, but

666
00:24:18.575 --> 00:24:20.015
- the work that I have to go through

667
00:24:20.015 --> 00:24:22.414
- to change there isn't worth it. And so

668
00:24:22.414 --> 00:24:24.994
- maybe that's something you'd wanna stay independent on.

669
00:24:25.214 --> 00:24:27.054
- So you could look at another network, like

670
00:24:27.054 --> 00:24:28.815
- I said, like Becky's, where you don't have

671
00:24:28.815 --> 00:24:30.329
- to change hosts and go, like, alright,

672
00:24:30.710 --> 00:24:32.950
- where's the independence that I get? Where's the

673
00:24:32.950 --> 00:24:35.210
- operational side that I get? Where's the opportunities

674
00:24:35.269 --> 00:24:36.950
- that I get? And what is it I'm

675
00:24:36.950 --> 00:24:39.769
- actually looking for? If you look at our

676
00:24:40.230 --> 00:24:41.529
- quintessential iHeart,

677
00:24:41.965 --> 00:24:43.884
- why would I go join iHeart? Well, I

678
00:24:43.884 --> 00:24:46.205
- know they're gonna inject nine minutes of ads

679
00:24:46.205 --> 00:24:48.605
- because they have a high ad load. That's

680
00:24:48.605 --> 00:24:51.005
- where they make their money. Their contracts are

681
00:24:51.005 --> 00:24:53.085
- volume based. So they're trying to get as

682
00:24:53.085 --> 00:24:54.845
- many shows as in that network because the

683
00:24:54.845 --> 00:24:56.445
- more net shows in there means some more

684
00:24:56.445 --> 00:24:58.630
- impressions, which means they're able to sell more

685
00:24:58.630 --> 00:24:59.750
- because at the end of the day, it's

686
00:24:59.750 --> 00:25:01.609
- all about the ad dollars there.

687
00:25:01.990 --> 00:25:04.070
- They're not in there from a community standpoint,

688
00:25:04.070 --> 00:25:06.630
- so good luck actually meeting other podcasters on

689
00:25:06.630 --> 00:25:09.190
- that network. They're not collaborating on that from

690
00:25:09.190 --> 00:25:10.009
- what I gather.

691
00:25:10.654 --> 00:25:12.575
- I've got Nathan coming up on the show,

692
00:25:12.575 --> 00:25:14.575
- but from when I gather, like, that is

693
00:25:14.575 --> 00:25:16.734
- not their their core. If I go back

694
00:25:16.734 --> 00:25:17.375
- to what,

695
00:25:17.934 --> 00:25:20.095
- Rachel said at Nova, like, that is not

696
00:25:20.095 --> 00:25:21.714
- what they're doing. So, some shows

697
00:25:22.095 --> 00:25:24.414
- or some networks aren't here, like, we just

698
00:25:24.414 --> 00:25:26.869
- want more shows. More shows means more inventory

699
00:25:26.869 --> 00:25:28.470
- I can go sell, which means I've got

700
00:25:28.470 --> 00:25:32.069
- buying power to get better CPMs, to get

701
00:25:32.069 --> 00:25:32.890
- better targeting,

702
00:25:33.429 --> 00:25:34.490
- fulfill campaigns.

703
00:25:35.269 --> 00:25:37.269
- And and so, to answer your question, yeah,

704
00:25:37.269 --> 00:25:39.029
- it really depends on what you want to

705
00:25:39.029 --> 00:25:40.575
- do, what are you trying to do.

706
00:25:41.534 --> 00:25:43.534
- And too many are also and I think

707
00:25:43.534 --> 00:25:45.534
- we do this as an industry, not just

708
00:25:45.534 --> 00:25:47.394
- as podcasting but just as a

709
00:25:48.095 --> 00:25:49.634
- marketing media industry,

710
00:25:50.335 --> 00:25:52.494
- from being in this for twenty years. The

711
00:25:52.494 --> 00:25:55.054
- cool and sexy thing is to make money

712
00:25:55.054 --> 00:25:55.875
- from ads.

713
00:25:56.349 --> 00:25:58.029
- You know, I mean, if I told you,

714
00:25:58.029 --> 00:26:00.909
- Rob, that Airbnb was sponsoring your show, you'd

715
00:26:00.909 --> 00:26:02.829
- feel that'd be I'd be able to go

716
00:26:02.829 --> 00:26:04.190
- to a coffee table and go like, Oh,

717
00:26:04.190 --> 00:26:05.809
- yeah, I've got a podcast. And Airbnb

718
00:26:06.109 --> 00:26:07.389
- pays $3,000

719
00:26:07.389 --> 00:26:09.009
- to sponsor my podcast.

720
00:26:09.884 --> 00:26:11.404
- But if you made a $100

721
00:26:11.404 --> 00:26:13.085
- because you were able to sell a couple

722
00:26:13.085 --> 00:26:15.404
- clients and whatever it was you were doing

723
00:26:15.404 --> 00:26:17.325
- or the SaaS you were doing, like, that

724
00:26:17.325 --> 00:26:19.965
- would be a lot more financial benefits to

725
00:26:19.965 --> 00:26:21.484
- you than a $3,000

726
00:26:21.484 --> 00:26:21.984
- sponsorship.

727
00:26:22.460 --> 00:26:24.380
- But most people are thinking the cool, sexy

728
00:26:24.380 --> 00:26:26.779
- ego of having a sponsor by x, y,

729
00:26:26.779 --> 00:26:29.180
- and z as opposed to, hold on. How

730
00:26:29.180 --> 00:26:30.480
- else could I make money

731
00:26:31.259 --> 00:26:32.480
- not having a sponsor?

732
00:26:32.940 --> 00:26:34.380
- And so you really have to answer your

733
00:26:34.380 --> 00:26:36.684
- answer yourself, like, why am I joining in

734
00:26:36.684 --> 00:26:38.924
- network? What am I trying to accomplish? What's

735
00:26:38.924 --> 00:26:40.865
- the value in this for me? Mhmm.

736
00:26:41.724 --> 00:26:43.804
- Yeah. And I think if you'll layer on

737
00:26:43.804 --> 00:26:46.044
- top of this as well, there there's another

738
00:26:46.044 --> 00:26:48.140
- component too is that I don't know if

739
00:26:48.140 --> 00:26:50.940
- you remember back to the earlier era of

740
00:26:50.940 --> 00:26:51.440
- media,

741
00:26:52.940 --> 00:26:54.319
- when the when

742
00:26:55.019 --> 00:26:57.980
- when the network, right, was really in front

743
00:26:57.980 --> 00:27:00.079
- of people in a big way. Right?

744
00:27:00.779 --> 00:27:02.380
- Of course, that was back in the era

745
00:27:02.380 --> 00:27:02.880
- of

746
00:27:03.454 --> 00:27:05.954
- fewer choice, right? There were fewer networks.

747
00:27:06.414 --> 00:27:07.714
- So it made more sense

748
00:27:08.174 --> 00:27:10.755
- for these big, big media companies like ABC,

749
00:27:10.815 --> 00:27:11.875
- CBS, NBC,

750
00:27:12.974 --> 00:27:14.355
- to really brand themselves

751
00:27:15.134 --> 00:27:15.634
- as

752
00:27:15.934 --> 00:27:18.194
- a place to get certain shows

753
00:27:19.099 --> 00:27:21.340
- where we're in the era now where the

754
00:27:21.340 --> 00:27:24.000
- shows are more important than the network.

755
00:27:24.619 --> 00:27:26.859
- And I kind of wonder if, you know,

756
00:27:26.859 --> 00:27:28.779
- some of that old media model is going

757
00:27:28.779 --> 00:27:31.099
- to come back into play, but I think

758
00:27:31.099 --> 00:27:32.880
- because there's so many networks

759
00:27:33.255 --> 00:27:33.755
- that

760
00:27:34.214 --> 00:27:36.295
- exist today, that we may never get back

761
00:27:36.295 --> 00:27:36.954
- to that.

762
00:27:37.815 --> 00:27:39.195
- We're promoting the network

763
00:27:39.974 --> 00:27:40.954
- in relation,

764
00:27:41.335 --> 00:27:43.734
- but I would say probably it matters to

765
00:27:43.734 --> 00:27:44.795
- Netflix. Right?

766
00:27:45.190 --> 00:27:47.269
- And it matters to YouTube, but those may

767
00:27:47.269 --> 00:27:49.369
- be the exception, not the rule. Right?

768
00:27:50.950 --> 00:27:52.710
- But more broadly, do you see us coming

769
00:27:52.710 --> 00:27:54.309
- back into a time when it makes sense

770
00:27:54.309 --> 00:27:55.529
- to promote the

771
00:27:55.830 --> 00:27:57.049
- the brand of the network?

772
00:27:59.525 --> 00:28:02.585
- And what where Jeremy Westfall from GZN

773
00:28:02.884 --> 00:28:04.884
- on, and that was kind of one of

774
00:28:04.884 --> 00:28:08.005
- the conversations he brought up. It's the branding

775
00:28:08.005 --> 00:28:08.744
- of GZN

776
00:28:09.125 --> 00:28:10.505
- g j z m.

777
00:28:12.109 --> 00:28:14.269
- And and just thinking about, you know, some

778
00:28:14.269 --> 00:28:15.789
- of what is it? I was listening to

779
00:28:15.789 --> 00:28:16.990
- a Pineapple Street,

780
00:28:17.470 --> 00:28:18.929
- podcast earlier today.

781
00:28:19.549 --> 00:28:22.109
- Doesn't exist anymore. But you knew what kind

782
00:28:22.109 --> 00:28:24.369
- of shows Pineapple Street would produce.

783
00:28:24.694 --> 00:28:27.575
- And so having that Pineapple Street branding or

784
00:28:27.575 --> 00:28:29.894
- Jeremy's case, their branding on it means, like,

785
00:28:29.894 --> 00:28:32.295
- I know what this network value is. I

786
00:28:32.295 --> 00:28:34.394
- know the kind of content it's putting out.

787
00:28:34.934 --> 00:28:35.434
- And

788
00:28:36.054 --> 00:28:38.075
- and so I think you see that with,

789
00:28:38.809 --> 00:28:40.170
- you know, what's you know, the kind of

790
00:28:40.170 --> 00:28:42.190
- shows that Hulu is gonna have. Right?

791
00:28:42.730 --> 00:28:44.170
- If you look at Disney back in the

792
00:28:44.170 --> 00:28:45.309
- day, like, an emblem

793
00:28:45.769 --> 00:28:47.529
- would not be the same kind of stuff

794
00:28:47.529 --> 00:28:48.910
- as a Disney entertainment

795
00:28:49.529 --> 00:28:50.750
- versus a touchstone.

796
00:28:51.105 --> 00:28:53.664
- I mean, they had different branding all under

797
00:28:53.664 --> 00:28:55.984
- their umbrella. And so I think you will

798
00:28:55.984 --> 00:28:58.065
- continue to see that because we wanna be

799
00:28:58.065 --> 00:28:59.984
- able to group things. These are like minded

800
00:28:59.984 --> 00:29:00.484
- shows.

801
00:29:01.184 --> 00:29:02.224
- You look at what,

802
00:29:02.944 --> 00:29:04.065
- a 24,

803
00:29:04.065 --> 00:29:06.509
- which is, I think, what part of Fox's

804
00:29:06.509 --> 00:29:08.529
- network. So, like, each one's grouping,

805
00:29:09.230 --> 00:29:11.009
- certain kind of shows under

806
00:29:11.549 --> 00:29:14.430
- that guys. And and I think that also

807
00:29:14.430 --> 00:29:17.330
- helps us as as an audience to understand

808
00:29:17.390 --> 00:29:18.289
- that. So

809
00:29:18.714 --> 00:29:21.355
- I think more networks should probably brand. You

810
00:29:21.355 --> 00:29:23.194
- know, if I were to think about if

811
00:29:23.194 --> 00:29:24.254
- I'm joining a network,

812
00:29:24.634 --> 00:29:26.414
- the network value should be,

813
00:29:26.794 --> 00:29:29.534
- I'm gonna put this logo on my podcast

814
00:29:29.595 --> 00:29:31.410
- so that people know that this is part

815
00:29:31.410 --> 00:29:33.289
- of this network. This is the quality you're

816
00:29:33.289 --> 00:29:35.529
- getting, but not every network does that. Yeah.

817
00:29:35.529 --> 00:29:36.890
- And I think about a lot of creators,

818
00:29:36.890 --> 00:29:39.049
- they want iHeart. Like, I want that little

819
00:29:39.049 --> 00:29:40.430
- iHeart logo on there

820
00:29:40.970 --> 00:29:43.049
- because it's a feel good. It makes me

821
00:29:43.049 --> 00:29:45.450
- feel like I've I've achieved. You know? IHeart

822
00:29:45.450 --> 00:29:47.484
- wants me, but, like, it's not really hard

823
00:29:47.484 --> 00:29:49.565
- to join the iHeart network in in some

824
00:29:49.565 --> 00:29:50.065
- regards.

825
00:29:50.444 --> 00:29:52.525
- They just want to make their money and

826
00:29:52.525 --> 00:29:54.365
- and inject their ads, and and you're giving

827
00:29:54.365 --> 00:29:56.684
- up the control there. Now, there's nuances. So,

828
00:29:56.684 --> 00:29:58.944
- anyone that's listening, iHeart, I apologize.

829
00:29:59.380 --> 00:30:00.659
- I know there's more, and I can't wait

830
00:30:00.659 --> 00:30:02.519
- for for Nathan to come on. But, like,

831
00:30:02.579 --> 00:30:04.440
- it it it's a higher level. Like,

832
00:30:05.059 --> 00:30:07.380
- they're they're they're all operating in very different

833
00:30:07.380 --> 00:30:07.880
- ways.

834
00:30:08.740 --> 00:30:10.740
- I think one thing we didn't touch on

835
00:30:10.740 --> 00:30:12.339
- and I would love to because we've talked

836
00:30:12.339 --> 00:30:14.234
- about the past, but, like, what we're feeling,

837
00:30:14.234 --> 00:30:15.855
- like, right now is the MCNs,

838
00:30:16.474 --> 00:30:18.095
- the full screens, the,

839
00:30:18.875 --> 00:30:20.095
- oh my god, the machinimas,

840
00:30:20.875 --> 00:30:21.775
- the the YouTube

841
00:30:22.315 --> 00:30:23.375
- operating channels

842
00:30:24.075 --> 00:30:24.575
- of

843
00:30:24.954 --> 00:30:27.059
- what is it? The the mid the early

844
00:30:27.059 --> 00:30:29.460
- two thousands, mid two thousands that we've now

845
00:30:29.460 --> 00:30:32.519
- just moved into. Like, okay. Those all pivoted.

846
00:30:33.140 --> 00:30:33.880
- They died.

847
00:30:36.179 --> 00:30:38.420
- We've now got the podcast, but podcast has

848
00:30:38.420 --> 00:30:41.144
- moved into videos. So great. Instead of just

849
00:30:41.144 --> 00:30:43.865
- video only, which is what the MCNs were

850
00:30:43.865 --> 00:30:44.605
- at the core,

851
00:30:45.144 --> 00:30:46.445
- we're now moving into

852
00:30:46.825 --> 00:30:48.445
- the new version of an MCN,

853
00:30:49.465 --> 00:30:53.384
- where it's truly multichannel network. And podcasting with

854
00:30:53.384 --> 00:30:55.919
- video is becoming that key piece, which then

855
00:30:55.919 --> 00:30:57.839
- you throw in the live component because I

856
00:30:57.839 --> 00:31:00.000
- don't think the MCNs were doing live too

857
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:01.460
- much back then.

858
00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:03.919
- But they were doing original content that you

859
00:31:03.919 --> 00:31:06.079
- knew. This was a full screen show. They

860
00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:07.619
- worked on the with the creators,

861
00:31:08.555 --> 00:31:10.555
- and they were I think Disney ended up

862
00:31:10.555 --> 00:31:12.555
- buying them, so you were getting the backings

863
00:31:12.555 --> 00:31:14.474
- by Disney and the writers by Disney. It's

864
00:31:14.474 --> 00:31:16.634
- like, you're seeing a lot of that, but

865
00:31:16.634 --> 00:31:19.035
- I feel that that's still all led by

866
00:31:19.035 --> 00:31:20.174
- money and ads.

867
00:31:21.755 --> 00:31:23.454
- Yeah. It's interesting too. I've noticed

868
00:31:24.710 --> 00:31:26.710
- that Silicon Valley is putting their thumb on

869
00:31:26.710 --> 00:31:30.470
- the scale of, of media now with some

870
00:31:30.470 --> 00:31:33.529
- investments that they've made into some upstart

871
00:31:34.230 --> 00:31:36.950
- new media networks is what they're calling it.

872
00:31:36.950 --> 00:31:38.490
- Now. It's an interesting time

873
00:31:38.950 --> 00:31:39.609
- in this

874
00:31:40.205 --> 00:31:43.744
- transition that we're seeing between the, the podcast

875
00:31:43.805 --> 00:31:46.125
- economy of sorts, which has really kind of

876
00:31:46.125 --> 00:31:47.265
- led all this,

877
00:31:48.125 --> 00:31:50.924
- you know, new media development really. And now,

878
00:31:50.924 --> 00:31:53.500
- you know, these big VCs are trying to

879
00:31:53.500 --> 00:31:54.000
- capture

880
00:31:54.299 --> 00:31:55.900
- what, what it is that they're doing is

881
00:31:55.900 --> 00:31:57.920
- somehow unique compared to,

882
00:31:58.380 --> 00:32:01.980
- you know, YouTube created stuff. And, and that

883
00:32:01.980 --> 00:32:03.119
- they're almost like,

884
00:32:04.235 --> 00:32:06.315
- you know, using this brand of new media,

885
00:32:06.315 --> 00:32:08.015
- they're almost trying to reproduce,

886
00:32:09.355 --> 00:32:09.855
- broadcast

887
00:32:10.235 --> 00:32:13.375
- again in a different format, younger generation,

888
00:32:13.994 --> 00:32:15.055
- you know, like the

889
00:32:15.355 --> 00:32:15.855
- TPBN,

890
00:32:17.559 --> 00:32:18.380
- kind of

891
00:32:18.920 --> 00:32:21.900
- new, new streaming show that's live on X

892
00:32:22.440 --> 00:32:24.200
- where they have the, you know, it's almost

893
00:32:24.200 --> 00:32:25.580
- like, like CNBC

894
00:32:26.680 --> 00:32:29.100
- and, and it's really interesting how,

895
00:32:29.480 --> 00:32:32.184
- you know, there's these different groups inside of

896
00:32:32.184 --> 00:32:34.585
- the, of the media industry that are trying

897
00:32:34.585 --> 00:32:35.565
- to capture

898
00:32:36.184 --> 00:32:38.204
- a certain kind of innovation

899
00:32:38.585 --> 00:32:39.964
- is what I'm, I'm

900
00:32:40.664 --> 00:32:43.259
- capturing it as is that they're trying to

901
00:32:43.500 --> 00:32:46.299
- rebrand something. So there's a renewed energy by

902
00:32:46.299 --> 00:32:49.420
- around something that justifies their $100,000,000

903
00:32:49.420 --> 00:32:52.539
- investment of open AI into this live streaming

904
00:32:52.539 --> 00:32:54.559
- show. That's just like, you know, like,

905
00:32:56.059 --> 00:32:56.799
- was it

906
00:32:57.384 --> 00:32:59.865
- a stock talk on CNBC or something? And

907
00:32:59.865 --> 00:33:01.704
- that's kind of what it is. It's like

908
00:33:01.704 --> 00:33:04.984
- a live business channel, but, but it's, it's

909
00:33:04.984 --> 00:33:06.904
- almost like we're moving into a kind of

910
00:33:06.904 --> 00:33:08.204
- like a morphed

911
00:33:09.144 --> 00:33:10.365
- mainstream media,

912
00:33:10.779 --> 00:33:11.599
- digital media

913
00:33:11.900 --> 00:33:13.519
- kind of ecosystem now.

914
00:33:14.460 --> 00:33:15.660
- And I think that a lot of the

915
00:33:15.660 --> 00:33:17.900
- big media networks that are out there right

916
00:33:17.900 --> 00:33:20.000
- now are, are rapidly

917
00:33:20.299 --> 00:33:20.799
- transitioning

918
00:33:21.259 --> 00:33:22.160
- into becoming

919
00:33:22.859 --> 00:33:25.660
- more like that, right? Where they're, they're being

920
00:33:25.660 --> 00:33:26.160
- seen

921
00:33:26.815 --> 00:33:27.875
- as kind of

922
00:33:28.174 --> 00:33:28.994
- really more,

923
00:33:29.295 --> 00:33:31.695
- we're, we're digital native, right? So they're bringing

924
00:33:31.695 --> 00:33:34.015
- in different talent. They're bringing in different approaches

925
00:33:34.015 --> 00:33:35.234
- to the shows. They're

926
00:33:35.615 --> 00:33:38.460
- less formal or more, you know,

927
00:33:39.259 --> 00:33:41.279
- younger, more, you know,

928
00:33:41.740 --> 00:33:44.159
- has a different approach to the content than

929
00:33:44.380 --> 00:33:47.039
- typically what you see on a major broadcast

930
00:33:47.099 --> 00:33:48.640
- network or a cable network.

931
00:33:49.099 --> 00:33:51.599
- So we're seeing this munging together of

932
00:33:51.944 --> 00:33:52.444
- concepts

933
00:33:52.984 --> 00:33:53.484
- and,

934
00:33:53.944 --> 00:33:55.784
- and that is a form of a network

935
00:33:55.784 --> 00:33:57.565
- to what they're doing there.

936
00:33:58.024 --> 00:33:58.524
- And

937
00:33:58.825 --> 00:33:59.325
- I'm,

938
00:33:59.704 --> 00:34:02.105
- what are you seeing as far as changes

939
00:34:02.105 --> 00:34:04.684
- in, in how mainstream media

940
00:34:04.990 --> 00:34:07.950
- is adopting these concepts that we're talking about

941
00:34:07.950 --> 00:34:09.250
- around building networks

942
00:34:09.710 --> 00:34:11.730
- that are more digital native?

943
00:34:13.070 --> 00:34:14.269
- I mean, you think about,

944
00:34:14.670 --> 00:34:16.589
- if we look at the big media companies,

945
00:34:16.589 --> 00:34:18.210
- how many of them have companion

946
00:34:18.589 --> 00:34:19.730
- podcasts to

947
00:34:20.484 --> 00:34:21.224
- their their,

948
00:34:22.724 --> 00:34:25.445
- TV shows or movies. Right? So Used to

949
00:34:25.445 --> 00:34:27.605
- in the early years of podcasting, they all

950
00:34:27.605 --> 00:34:30.565
- had full episode TV episodes in their RSS

951
00:34:30.565 --> 00:34:31.065
- feeds.

952
00:34:31.605 --> 00:34:33.445
- Right? So And I wonder if we're gonna

953
00:34:33.445 --> 00:34:34.585
- come back to that again.

954
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:37.539
- I have a hot take.

955
00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:40.160
- I'll share it here. But I think the

956
00:34:40.160 --> 00:34:42.239
- hot take I have is with Apple doing

957
00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:42.980
- the HLS,

958
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:48.579
- you will eventually see more video being distributed

959
00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:51.275
- over that kind of, and and that just

960
00:34:51.275 --> 00:34:54.635
- becomes another distribution channel. Yeah. Right. And I

961
00:34:54.635 --> 00:34:56.175
- think that is where

962
00:34:57.434 --> 00:34:59.595
- everything's gonna go. We know this from a

963
00:34:59.595 --> 00:35:00.494
- media standpoint.

964
00:35:01.755 --> 00:35:02.735
- Dollars go

965
00:35:03.035 --> 00:35:04.894
- dollars are just gonna funnel wherever

966
00:35:05.380 --> 00:35:07.460
- you're gonna get the most. And so video

967
00:35:07.460 --> 00:35:09.400
- happens to have that. Right?

968
00:35:10.420 --> 00:35:12.280
- We've seen this with YCTV

969
00:35:12.739 --> 00:35:15.400
- is doing far more is a higher CPM

970
00:35:15.460 --> 00:35:17.559
- than a programmatic ad on audio.

971
00:35:18.355 --> 00:35:20.035
- No matter how much we fight it as

972
00:35:20.035 --> 00:35:22.535
- an industry from an audio standpoint, we're, like,

973
00:35:23.075 --> 00:35:25.875
- they're more engaged, they're this, they have higher

974
00:35:25.875 --> 00:35:28.375
- yada yada yada. It is still just,

975
00:35:29.954 --> 00:35:32.195
- video, video, video. I remember when I was

976
00:35:32.195 --> 00:35:32.934
- at CBS,

977
00:35:33.440 --> 00:35:34.900
- one of the things we were taught,

978
00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:38.239
- you look at, like, news channels. So here

979
00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:39.619
- in LA, it was KNX.

980
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:43.440
- They could charge more because the person who's

981
00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:45.200
- listening to a news channel is far different

982
00:35:45.200 --> 00:35:46.420
- than the person who's listening

983
00:35:46.720 --> 00:35:48.579
- to a music station

984
00:35:49.175 --> 00:35:52.295
- and passive versus active listening. And so, you're

985
00:35:52.295 --> 00:35:53.894
- going to continue to see the fight for

986
00:35:53.894 --> 00:35:54.394
- attention.

987
00:35:54.934 --> 00:35:57.655
- We, as a media industry, will continue to

988
00:35:57.655 --> 00:35:59.974
- try and figure out, you know, Tom and

989
00:35:59.974 --> 00:36:01.355
- Sounds Profitable or

990
00:36:01.989 --> 00:36:04.390
- or Paul in Signal Hill. Like, everyone's just

991
00:36:04.390 --> 00:36:05.670
- trying to figure out, like, what are the

992
00:36:05.670 --> 00:36:08.250
- stats? We'll continue to make those,

993
00:36:10.230 --> 00:36:11.910
- make those cases for,

994
00:36:12.630 --> 00:36:15.289
- unfortunately, for dollars to come in because everything's

995
00:36:15.349 --> 00:36:16.410
- run by dollars.

996
00:36:17.234 --> 00:36:18.914
- Even though I go back to if I

997
00:36:18.914 --> 00:36:20.674
- look at how many of the networks I've

998
00:36:20.674 --> 00:36:22.914
- talked to, how many networks I've got coming

999
00:36:22.914 --> 00:36:25.315
- on the show, and hopefully far more, they're

1000
00:36:25.315 --> 00:36:27.734
- all not just focused on the ad dollars,

1001
00:36:28.194 --> 00:36:31.030
- they're focused on all these different components.

1002
00:36:31.809 --> 00:36:33.170
- You know, in some cases and we could

1003
00:36:33.170 --> 00:36:35.130
- look at you and I just

1004
00:36:35.570 --> 00:36:37.250
- and I guess I'll go more with you

1005
00:36:37.250 --> 00:36:39.670
- and and your longevity in the space

1006
00:36:40.130 --> 00:36:43.065
- and how many podcasts you've done that's like,

1007
00:36:43.144 --> 00:36:44.905
- I'm not making money on this. This builds

1008
00:36:44.905 --> 00:36:46.744
- my know, like, and trust. This builds my

1009
00:36:46.744 --> 00:36:48.045
- industry. This builds

1010
00:36:48.344 --> 00:36:50.684
- my ability to just talk about something.

1011
00:36:51.784 --> 00:36:53.864
- We will always have creators that wanna do

1012
00:36:53.864 --> 00:36:54.925
- that, whether it's

1013
00:36:55.559 --> 00:36:58.460
- on Instagram, whether it's or whatever social platform,

1014
00:36:58.519 --> 00:37:01.820
- whether it's on video, with YouTube, with Twitch,

1015
00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:03.019
- podcast.

1016
00:37:03.559 --> 00:37:06.200
- Choose whatever medium it is. No matter which

1017
00:37:06.200 --> 00:37:08.760
- medium, you're still playing the algorithms. You still

1018
00:37:08.760 --> 00:37:10.059
- have to hustle for,

1019
00:37:11.054 --> 00:37:13.155
- the attention and put out good content.

1020
00:37:14.574 --> 00:37:17.375
- Yeah. Well, that's the bottom line. Right? All

1021
00:37:17.375 --> 00:37:18.275
- of this, but

1022
00:37:18.734 --> 00:37:19.394
- not everybody,

1023
00:37:21.295 --> 00:37:22.434
- is driven by

1024
00:37:22.900 --> 00:37:25.460
- driving big audience either. Right. And, and, and

1025
00:37:25.460 --> 00:37:27.880
- I think that's, that's the spectrum here is,

1026
00:37:28.179 --> 00:37:30.659
- is it some people it's, it's more about

1027
00:37:30.659 --> 00:37:31.480
- who's listening.

1028
00:37:32.019 --> 00:37:33.400
- And I think we may be,

1029
00:37:34.340 --> 00:37:36.519
- HLS may give some exposure

1030
00:37:37.304 --> 00:37:39.224
- to, to that in a different way, as

1031
00:37:39.224 --> 00:37:40.284
- we look to the future,

1032
00:37:41.144 --> 00:37:43.464
- of knowing who your audience is, how far

1033
00:37:43.464 --> 00:37:45.304
- they're listening, what the engagement is. And I

1034
00:37:45.304 --> 00:37:46.844
- think that there's been a lot of,

1035
00:37:48.505 --> 00:37:51.559
- YouTube stats envy. That's been around for a

1036
00:37:51.559 --> 00:37:52.780
- few years now,

1037
00:37:53.480 --> 00:37:54.539
- that the podcasting

1038
00:37:54.840 --> 00:37:56.920
- industry is like, you know, an apple is

1039
00:37:56.920 --> 00:37:59.320
- seeing what's going on too. They're, they're smart

1040
00:37:59.320 --> 00:38:00.619
- people over there. And,

1041
00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:01.239
- and,

1042
00:38:02.119 --> 00:38:03.820
- they're seeing the opportunities

1043
00:38:04.440 --> 00:38:05.420
- that could be

1044
00:38:05.934 --> 00:38:08.335
- coming to podcasting if we had better, deeper

1045
00:38:08.335 --> 00:38:08.835
- metrics

1046
00:38:09.614 --> 00:38:10.114
- and,

1047
00:38:10.574 --> 00:38:11.074
- HLS

1048
00:38:11.855 --> 00:38:13.694
- gives an opportunity for us to build that

1049
00:38:13.694 --> 00:38:15.154
- out over time and

1050
00:38:15.614 --> 00:38:16.114
- into

1051
00:38:16.574 --> 00:38:19.375
- more readily compete with like a YouTube or

1052
00:38:19.375 --> 00:38:21.119
- on the modernization side, side, because I think

1053
00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:22.400
- we've been in a little bit of a

1054
00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:22.900
- disadvantage,

1055
00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:26.079
- for the last few years on that. And

1056
00:38:26.079 --> 00:38:26.579
- so

1057
00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:30.339
- I do wonder, though, in the bigger picture,

1058
00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:35.539
- this this addition of HLS into Apple Podcasts,

1059
00:38:35.894 --> 00:38:37.974
- and I've had episodes where we've talked about

1060
00:38:37.974 --> 00:38:39.835
- this to some degree in the past, but

1061
00:38:40.695 --> 00:38:42.954
- do you think that it's going to matter

1062
00:38:43.015 --> 00:38:44.715
- what Apple is doing here

1063
00:38:45.815 --> 00:38:48.135
- with on the video side, with so much

1064
00:38:48.135 --> 00:38:48.635
- momentum

1065
00:38:48.934 --> 00:38:51.175
- around all these other platforms on the video

1066
00:38:51.175 --> 00:38:52.469
- side, do Do you think it's

1067
00:38:52.849 --> 00:38:55.969
- gonna get get the attention that maybe it

1068
00:38:55.969 --> 00:38:57.190
- it could get? Or

1069
00:38:57.570 --> 00:39:00.210
- do you think it's it's gonna, you know,

1070
00:39:00.210 --> 00:39:02.869
- be a flop on on landing? So

1071
00:39:03.809 --> 00:39:04.130
- I,

1072
00:39:05.045 --> 00:39:06.885
- I mean, being the head of relationships for

1073
00:39:06.885 --> 00:39:08.805
- a hosting company, rss.com,

1074
00:39:08.805 --> 00:39:10.965
- and we haven't figured out our own pricing

1075
00:39:10.965 --> 00:39:13.065
- model. Right? Yeah. Right.

1076
00:39:14.805 --> 00:39:16.885
- I don't know. I think is is the

1077
00:39:16.885 --> 00:39:19.364
- biggest thing. You've got creators that are going,

1078
00:39:19.364 --> 00:39:20.105
- hold on.

1079
00:39:21.289 --> 00:39:23.690
- And this is this is where education comes

1080
00:39:23.690 --> 00:39:25.610
- in, and this is I was literally talking

1081
00:39:25.610 --> 00:39:27.070
- with someone about this yesterday

1082
00:39:27.449 --> 00:39:29.230
- is they didn't understand

1083
00:39:29.769 --> 00:39:30.750
- why it's

1084
00:39:31.210 --> 00:39:33.050
- why it's free to be all these places.

1085
00:39:33.050 --> 00:39:34.590
- And I'm like, come on, people.

1086
00:39:35.015 --> 00:39:37.335
- Like, let's take a moment back. Is it

1087
00:39:37.335 --> 00:39:38.635
- free to be on Instagram?

1088
00:39:39.094 --> 00:39:40.934
- Yes. Is there a cost to being in

1089
00:39:40.934 --> 00:39:41.434
- Instagram?

1090
00:39:41.735 --> 00:39:44.715
- Yes. Yeah. What? There's a cost? Like, yes.

1091
00:39:44.775 --> 00:39:47.655
- You're ultimately helping a, what is it, a

1092
00:39:47.655 --> 00:39:48.695
- $3,000,000,000,000

1093
00:39:48.695 --> 00:39:49.755
- market cap company

1094
00:39:51.050 --> 00:39:51.869
- drive their

1095
00:39:52.409 --> 00:39:53.070
- ad sales

1096
00:39:53.449 --> 00:39:54.510
- with your content,

1097
00:39:55.690 --> 00:39:57.929
- and pushing an audience to there that they

1098
00:39:57.929 --> 00:39:59.150
- control the algorithms,

1099
00:39:59.690 --> 00:40:01.949
- and they get to control the payout, and

1100
00:40:02.224 --> 00:40:03.985
- you get to complain I got kicked off

1101
00:40:03.985 --> 00:40:06.065
- or my POs got kicked down, like, whatever

1102
00:40:06.065 --> 00:40:08.304
- it is. Like, this is this is no

1103
00:40:08.304 --> 00:40:09.445
- different. So

1104
00:40:09.905 --> 00:40:12.385
- I think what HLS or, sorry, what Apple's

1105
00:40:12.385 --> 00:40:14.625
- doing is ultimately saying, like, hey, we're gonna

1106
00:40:14.625 --> 00:40:15.605
- give you the control.

1107
00:40:16.099 --> 00:40:17.860
- But as a creator, like, hold on. I

1108
00:40:17.860 --> 00:40:19.719
- now have to pay how much money,

1109
00:40:20.019 --> 00:40:22.980
- which each of our hosting platforms, ours no

1110
00:40:22.980 --> 00:40:24.659
- different. We don't have the pricing yet, but,

1111
00:40:24.659 --> 00:40:26.679
- like, each one's got a different model.

1112
00:40:27.940 --> 00:40:31.114
- It's ultimately gonna be tied to advertising. And

1113
00:40:31.114 --> 00:40:33.454
- that's where it's like, hold on.

1114
00:40:34.715 --> 00:40:36.715
- But there's a cost to it. And when

1115
00:40:36.715 --> 00:40:38.655
- there's a cost to it, it's like, great.

1116
00:40:38.715 --> 00:40:40.889
- We as the hosting company are gonna are

1117
00:40:40.889 --> 00:40:42.809
- gonna stomach some of that cost. We're gonna

1118
00:40:42.809 --> 00:40:44.250
- pass that on to you by what we're

1119
00:40:44.250 --> 00:40:46.569
- charging. Some of that's gonna be eaten up

1120
00:40:46.569 --> 00:40:49.309
- by advertising and there's rev share, but, like,

1121
00:40:49.530 --> 00:40:52.089
- it's no different than what Spotify and YouTube

1122
00:40:52.089 --> 00:40:54.170
- are doing right now. We're, like, upload whatever

1123
00:40:54.170 --> 00:40:56.375
- you want for free, but we control the

1124
00:40:56.375 --> 00:40:59.094
- platform, we control the algorithm, we control the

1125
00:40:59.094 --> 00:40:59.594
- monetization.

1126
00:41:01.335 --> 00:41:03.655
- Currently, I don't think what YouTube's got dynamic

1127
00:41:03.655 --> 00:41:05.414
- ads, you have to bake it in. So,

1128
00:41:05.414 --> 00:41:07.974
- there's all these different components that go into

1129
00:41:07.974 --> 00:41:08.474
- it.

1130
00:41:08.889 --> 00:41:10.329
- I think if we look at the large

1131
00:41:10.329 --> 00:41:11.230
- media companies,

1132
00:41:11.769 --> 00:41:14.030
- they're all trying to figure that out. And

1133
00:41:14.170 --> 00:41:15.150
- at some point,

1134
00:41:15.530 --> 00:41:17.530
- I was talking with the person yesterday about

1135
00:41:17.530 --> 00:41:18.590
- this, at some point,

1136
00:41:19.050 --> 00:41:21.945
- just like there's one dashboard for you to

1137
00:41:21.945 --> 00:41:24.505
- control of your social posts because agencies need

1138
00:41:24.505 --> 00:41:25.644
- to be able to control

1139
00:41:26.025 --> 00:41:27.805
- all those social posts in one place,

1140
00:41:28.184 --> 00:41:30.125
- you will eventually have to have a dashboard

1141
00:41:30.425 --> 00:41:32.905
- for media buyers and agencies to be able

1142
00:41:32.905 --> 00:41:36.684
- to place their ads in Spotify, Apple, YouTube,

1143
00:41:37.309 --> 00:41:39.550
- Twitch, wherever that video is, no different than

1144
00:41:39.550 --> 00:41:41.409
- you've got on social. Mhmm.

1145
00:41:41.710 --> 00:41:43.170
- Because as a media buyer,

1146
00:41:44.030 --> 00:41:46.190
- you wanna be wherever your audience is, you

1147
00:41:46.190 --> 00:41:48.849
- wanna be able to all, reach that audience

1148
00:41:48.909 --> 00:41:52.255
- on whatever content, whatever platform it is, then

1149
00:41:52.255 --> 00:41:53.454
- you have to be able to go down

1150
00:41:53.454 --> 00:41:55.375
- that path. But right now, we're not there.

1151
00:41:55.375 --> 00:41:57.534
- Right now, it's a a fight for attention.

1152
00:41:57.534 --> 00:41:58.514
- It's a fight for

1153
00:41:58.815 --> 00:41:59.315
- who

1154
00:41:59.695 --> 00:42:02.894
- is Netflix by taking Jay Shetty off of

1155
00:42:02.894 --> 00:42:05.534
- YouTube? Is Netflix able to move his audience

1156
00:42:05.534 --> 00:42:06.755
- over there and get the exclusivity?

1157
00:42:07.619 --> 00:42:09.299
- I mean, I listen to the column app

1158
00:42:09.299 --> 00:42:11.059
- and Jay Shetty's in the column app, but

1159
00:42:11.059 --> 00:42:12.579
- he's also all these other places. There's a

1160
00:42:12.579 --> 00:42:14.819
- great brand deal for him, but who knows

1161
00:42:14.819 --> 00:42:17.219
- how it works out economically for everyone. Well,

1162
00:42:17.219 --> 00:42:19.219
- that and plus there's a good chance that

1163
00:42:19.219 --> 00:42:21.460
- he's gonna lose audience when he does this

1164
00:42:21.460 --> 00:42:21.960
- too.

1165
00:42:22.585 --> 00:42:23.565
- So I still say,

1166
00:42:24.344 --> 00:42:28.045
- Joe Rogan lost millions of dollars, but operationally,

1167
00:42:28.664 --> 00:42:30.184
- it was an easy thing for him. Had

1168
00:42:30.184 --> 00:42:31.085
- he just started.

1169
00:42:31.704 --> 00:42:33.565
- Yeah. Was it taking

1170
00:42:34.025 --> 00:42:36.525
- a share of ad revenue or was it,

1171
00:42:37.219 --> 00:42:38.839
- you know, getting a guarantee?

1172
00:42:39.139 --> 00:42:41.139
- So I think that was the, that's the

1173
00:42:41.139 --> 00:42:43.699
- trade off these guys make, right? Is, is,

1174
00:42:43.699 --> 00:42:44.359
- you know,

1175
00:42:44.819 --> 00:42:46.339
- they offered $10,000,000

1176
00:42:46.339 --> 00:42:47.799
- or a $100,000,000

1177
00:42:47.859 --> 00:42:49.960
- you know, for a two year deal.

1178
00:42:50.394 --> 00:42:53.195
- What's my potential revenue on just taking a

1179
00:42:53.195 --> 00:42:55.934
- rev share off of a natural audience.

1180
00:42:56.315 --> 00:42:58.875
- And if it's the same or equal, just

1181
00:42:58.875 --> 00:42:59.914
- take the deal. Right.

1182
00:43:00.635 --> 00:43:02.715
- But in the long run, and I think

1183
00:43:02.715 --> 00:43:03.775
- that that's why

1184
00:43:04.190 --> 00:43:06.990
- Joe came back to wider distribution is that

1185
00:43:06.990 --> 00:43:07.730
- the Spotify,

1186
00:43:08.190 --> 00:43:10.670
- Spotify realized that they could probably scale Joe

1187
00:43:10.670 --> 00:43:13.090
- show bigger and make more money from it

1188
00:43:13.470 --> 00:43:17.090
- on a higher, higher scale. Right. And versus

1189
00:43:17.864 --> 00:43:19.864
- using his show as a way to get

1190
00:43:19.864 --> 00:43:20.364
- subscribers.

1191
00:43:21.065 --> 00:43:23.804
- And once they saturated that subscription,

1192
00:43:25.304 --> 00:43:27.885
- appeal of sorts by having Joe over there,

1193
00:43:28.425 --> 00:43:30.105
- then it made sense to open it back

1194
00:43:30.105 --> 00:43:32.519
- up again. And that that's probably what's happening

1195
00:43:32.519 --> 00:43:34.280
- to some degree with Netflix is I think

1196
00:43:34.280 --> 00:43:36.460
- Netflix is using this as a way to,

1197
00:43:37.079 --> 00:43:39.320
- or they think that by bringing on Jay,

1198
00:43:39.320 --> 00:43:41.559
- that's going to get more people to subscribe

1199
00:43:41.559 --> 00:43:42.539
- to Netflix

1200
00:43:42.840 --> 00:43:44.715
- for some period of time. I mean, but

1201
00:43:44.715 --> 00:43:46.635
- that's the math everyone's looking at. Right? If

1202
00:43:46.635 --> 00:43:48.315
- we put out if we look at why

1203
00:43:48.315 --> 00:43:50.394
- does this show get canceled after one season?

1204
00:43:50.394 --> 00:43:52.635
- I love this show. Well, it didn't drive

1205
00:43:52.635 --> 00:43:53.375
- the subscribers

1206
00:43:53.675 --> 00:43:54.875
- that the the,

1207
00:43:56.550 --> 00:43:59.510
- platform needed, you know. Netflix didn't get more

1208
00:43:59.510 --> 00:44:01.750
- subscribers, which is ultimately what's gonna pay for

1209
00:44:01.750 --> 00:44:02.250
- that

1210
00:44:02.630 --> 00:44:05.030
- second season because second season is gonna cost

1211
00:44:05.030 --> 00:44:05.769
- you more.

1212
00:44:06.150 --> 00:44:07.989
- Not enough people are watching it from an

1213
00:44:07.989 --> 00:44:09.369
- ad supported standpoint.

1214
00:44:09.855 --> 00:44:11.934
- So there's so many different but it all

1215
00:44:11.934 --> 00:44:13.875
- goes back to the economics of advertising,

1216
00:44:14.175 --> 00:44:16.114
- which if we go back to networks,

1217
00:44:16.734 --> 00:44:18.815
- the podcast networks and the conversations I get

1218
00:44:18.815 --> 00:44:20.675
- to have is, like, it's not all

1219
00:44:21.135 --> 00:44:22.994
- ad supported. It's all not

1220
00:44:23.534 --> 00:44:26.159
- it's not all ad dollars. But from a

1221
00:44:26.159 --> 00:44:26.900
- new media,

1222
00:44:27.199 --> 00:44:28.500
- they're all moving into,

1223
00:44:29.519 --> 00:44:30.500
- okay, social

1224
00:44:31.039 --> 00:44:31.539
- video.

1225
00:44:32.639 --> 00:44:34.559
- But if they're not looking at that from

1226
00:44:34.559 --> 00:44:36.559
- a revenue standpoint, the creator, at the end

1227
00:44:36.559 --> 00:44:39.045
- of the day, anyone listening has to agree,

1228
00:44:39.125 --> 00:44:41.364
- the creator has to do the hustle. Every

1229
00:44:41.364 --> 00:44:43.924
- one of my network operators has said, like,

1230
00:44:43.924 --> 00:44:45.864
- that Yep. You have to hustle.

1231
00:44:46.724 --> 00:44:49.545
- And if you're not hustling, you can't expect

1232
00:44:50.164 --> 00:44:52.085
- anyone else to do it. And we could

1233
00:44:52.085 --> 00:44:54.250
- look at why did this movie

1234
00:44:54.710 --> 00:44:55.210
- fail?

1235
00:44:55.909 --> 00:44:57.909
- ABC didn't do a good job marking, or

1236
00:44:57.909 --> 00:44:59.989
- Disney didn't do a good job marketing it,

1237
00:44:59.989 --> 00:45:02.710
- or the the, the talent didn't get on

1238
00:45:02.710 --> 00:45:04.949
- to all the press junkets they need, or

1239
00:45:04.949 --> 00:45:07.454
- the the company that they outsource for the

1240
00:45:07.454 --> 00:45:09.375
- trailer did a terrible job understanding what the

1241
00:45:09.375 --> 00:45:11.315
- movie is, and the trailer didn't do well.

1242
00:45:11.375 --> 00:45:12.815
- And then we see it later on, it

1243
00:45:12.815 --> 00:45:14.894
- becomes a cult classic. Like, at the end

1244
00:45:14.894 --> 00:45:17.214
- of the day, you still gotta hustle, and

1245
00:45:17.214 --> 00:45:19.155
- and and it's not all for sure thing.

1246
00:45:19.949 --> 00:45:21.630
- Well, if you can be a part of

1247
00:45:21.630 --> 00:45:23.710
- a big network that has big budgets and

1248
00:45:23.710 --> 00:45:24.449
- big reach,

1249
00:45:25.710 --> 00:45:28.050
- then, you know, and I think that's the

1250
00:45:28.349 --> 00:45:29.650
- the factor that Joe

1251
00:45:30.589 --> 00:45:32.269
- Joe Rogan factor when he did the deal

1252
00:45:32.269 --> 00:45:34.375
- with Spotify is just the just the sheer

1253
00:45:34.375 --> 00:45:36.154
- reach of the platform and the prioritization

1254
00:45:36.454 --> 00:45:37.355
- that he's gonna

1255
00:45:38.454 --> 00:45:41.255
- get from the platform in cross promotion and

1256
00:45:41.255 --> 00:45:42.394
- promotion and

1257
00:45:42.934 --> 00:45:45.094
- PR and spin and all that stuff that

1258
00:45:45.094 --> 00:45:46.614
- goes along with the deal like that. The

1259
00:45:46.614 --> 00:45:48.739
- same thing that now we talked about it

1260
00:45:48.739 --> 00:45:51.139
- on this show about the, the Jay Shetty

1261
00:45:51.139 --> 00:45:51.639
- deal,

1262
00:45:52.019 --> 00:45:54.019
- Jay Shetty probably wouldn't even come up in

1263
00:45:54.019 --> 00:45:56.099
- the conversation if he hadn't done that deal.

1264
00:45:56.099 --> 00:45:58.579
- So, you know, there's, there's elements of this

1265
00:45:58.579 --> 00:46:00.359
- that around PR and promotion

1266
00:46:00.974 --> 00:46:03.295
- that, that help, you know, the network and

1267
00:46:03.295 --> 00:46:04.835
- it helped the shows too.

1268
00:46:05.614 --> 00:46:06.515
- But it also

1269
00:46:07.055 --> 00:46:07.555
- is,

1270
00:46:08.335 --> 00:46:10.815
- it really begs the question around, you know,

1271
00:46:10.815 --> 00:46:12.675
- how is this economically

1272
00:46:12.974 --> 00:46:15.235
- supported? Right. And just like what you said,

1273
00:46:15.300 --> 00:46:17.059
- you know, there, there is a certain amount

1274
00:46:17.059 --> 00:46:20.179
- of subscription fatigue out there. Right. And then

1275
00:46:20.179 --> 00:46:22.840
- there's this tension of, of, if you

1276
00:46:23.619 --> 00:46:25.000
- deliver enough ads,

1277
00:46:25.380 --> 00:46:27.400
- then you're going to convert people into

1278
00:46:27.940 --> 00:46:29.239
- a subscription model.

1279
00:46:29.594 --> 00:46:31.375
- But then is there oversaturation

1280
00:46:31.675 --> 00:46:34.474
- of subscription model? And once that happens, then

1281
00:46:34.474 --> 00:46:35.934
- where do we go? Right?

1282
00:46:36.315 --> 00:46:39.135
- So We we're definitely in that subscription fatigue.

1283
00:46:39.514 --> 00:46:41.934
- The jokes right now is with the playoffs

1284
00:46:41.994 --> 00:46:43.440
- going on as we record this, you know,

1285
00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:45.519
- you get the NBA and NHL playoffs. It's

1286
00:46:45.519 --> 00:46:48.079
- like, I don't know what channel to watch

1287
00:46:48.079 --> 00:46:50.079
- to get what game, and that's a terrible

1288
00:46:50.079 --> 00:46:52.239
- thing. I'm like, hold on. If I've subscribed

1289
00:46:52.239 --> 00:46:53.839
- to this, I can only get this game.

1290
00:46:53.839 --> 00:46:55.280
- But if I subscribe to this, I can

1291
00:46:55.280 --> 00:46:56.800
- get that game. I can't I can't watch

1292
00:46:56.800 --> 00:46:58.484
- them all. I mean, that's a as a

1293
00:46:58.484 --> 00:47:00.964
- fan experience who just wants sports, I mean,

1294
00:47:00.964 --> 00:47:02.404
- that's a terrible thing. So now you gotta

1295
00:47:02.404 --> 00:47:04.025
- package and bundle it all together.

1296
00:47:04.324 --> 00:47:07.125
- That's a that's a terrible experience right there,

1297
00:47:07.125 --> 00:47:09.444
- but it's all about the subscription. So I

1298
00:47:09.444 --> 00:47:11.304
- think you do have a valid point.

1299
00:47:11.820 --> 00:47:13.660
- Joe Rogan, I think, what is it, Joe

1300
00:47:13.660 --> 00:47:15.579
- Biden is making millions of dollars from a

1301
00:47:15.579 --> 00:47:16.079
- subscription.

1302
00:47:18.140 --> 00:47:19.280
- What is it, Supercast

1303
00:47:20.380 --> 00:47:22.380
- with Red Sea Ventures just did the whole

1304
00:47:22.380 --> 00:47:23.200
- deal on

1305
00:47:25.034 --> 00:47:25.534
- Spotify,

1306
00:47:27.434 --> 00:47:29.994
- video subscription, I think that was if I'm

1307
00:47:29.994 --> 00:47:32.974
- remembering today's Pod News, right? Yeah. Okay. So,

1308
00:47:34.635 --> 00:47:36.394
- there's so many different ways. As I keep

1309
00:47:36.394 --> 00:47:38.315
- going back, there's 20 plus ways to make

1310
00:47:38.315 --> 00:47:38.815
- money.

1311
00:47:39.130 --> 00:47:40.969
- It's just a matter of how do you

1312
00:47:40.969 --> 00:47:43.210
- want to make that money? How do you

1313
00:47:43.210 --> 00:47:45.150
- want to invest your time?

1314
00:47:46.489 --> 00:47:48.750
- Where are networks or where are operators

1315
00:47:49.050 --> 00:47:51.929
- going to go creators, individual creators, gonna be

1316
00:47:51.929 --> 00:47:54.454
- outsourcing their team? I mean, I talk about

1317
00:47:54.454 --> 00:47:55.994
- this all the time. I'd rather spend

1318
00:47:56.295 --> 00:47:57.175
- $30

1319
00:47:57.175 --> 00:47:59.414
- to hire a production company to do my

1320
00:47:59.414 --> 00:47:59.914
- show

1321
00:48:00.775 --> 00:48:03.114
- so that I can make more money on

1322
00:48:03.335 --> 00:48:05.574
- not producing and not learning how to edit

1323
00:48:05.574 --> 00:48:07.175
- a show, but actually go make the money

1324
00:48:07.175 --> 00:48:08.695
- on whatever I'm gonna make the money in,

1325
00:48:08.695 --> 00:48:10.849
- whether it's closing deals, it's,

1326
00:48:11.869 --> 00:48:14.289
- getting booking, whatever that may be. So,

1327
00:48:14.829 --> 00:48:17.389
- you will eventually see these media companies will

1328
00:48:17.389 --> 00:48:19.489
- have the teams that'll be able to run

1329
00:48:19.549 --> 00:48:21.630
- not just their ad sales, but run their

1330
00:48:21.630 --> 00:48:24.029
- social, run their video, run X, Y, and

1331
00:48:24.029 --> 00:48:24.529
- Z.

1332
00:48:24.855 --> 00:48:26.155
- You look at like Midas,

1333
00:48:26.454 --> 00:48:27.914
- the Midas team and

1334
00:48:28.775 --> 00:48:30.695
- small lean team, but how much content they're

1335
00:48:30.695 --> 00:48:32.875
- putting out there across all different channels

1336
00:48:33.255 --> 00:48:35.574
- because they realize it's a content game, it

1337
00:48:35.574 --> 00:48:37.974
- is the algorithmic game, but they've also figured

1338
00:48:37.974 --> 00:48:39.594
- out what good content is because

1339
00:48:40.089 --> 00:48:41.069
- the three brothers

1340
00:48:41.449 --> 00:48:42.889
- know those different unique,

1341
00:48:43.289 --> 00:48:44.349
- aspects of it.

1342
00:48:45.769 --> 00:48:47.130
- So, you know, I have to ask you

1343
00:48:47.130 --> 00:48:48.269
- about this one topic

1344
00:48:48.650 --> 00:48:50.109
- Okay. That that is,

1345
00:48:50.569 --> 00:48:53.150
- that's hot on everybody's mind right now. And

1346
00:48:53.210 --> 00:48:55.069
- I'm trying to get everybody's kind of

1347
00:48:55.755 --> 00:48:57.835
- feel about where, where we are right now.

1348
00:48:57.835 --> 00:49:00.654
- And it's, and it's really focused on AI.

1349
00:49:00.795 --> 00:49:01.295
- Right.

1350
00:49:02.315 --> 00:49:04.795
- Do you hear any of these networks talking

1351
00:49:04.795 --> 00:49:05.295
- about

1352
00:49:05.674 --> 00:49:06.335
- how they're

1353
00:49:07.034 --> 00:49:10.234
- either embracing it or not, or are they

1354
00:49:10.234 --> 00:49:12.550
- looking at ways to bring efficiencies?

1355
00:49:13.489 --> 00:49:16.230
- Are they, you know, how are you hearing

1356
00:49:16.289 --> 00:49:18.070
- that people are using AI

1357
00:49:18.369 --> 00:49:20.150
- in the content creation

1358
00:49:20.530 --> 00:49:23.510
- ecosystem space? I mean, I'm seeing so much

1359
00:49:23.985 --> 00:49:25.664
- interesting stuff out there that I can't help,

1360
00:49:25.664 --> 00:49:27.125
- but bring it to this show.

1361
00:49:28.065 --> 00:49:30.704
- That is, that is radically going to change.

1362
00:49:30.704 --> 00:49:32.545
- Actually, the next couple of episodes are going

1363
00:49:32.545 --> 00:49:33.684
- to be mind blowers

1364
00:49:34.704 --> 00:49:37.525
- because of what is happening out of the,

1365
00:49:38.739 --> 00:49:40.519
- the, the whole Silicon Valley area

1366
00:49:40.900 --> 00:49:44.340
- with AI. And I just wonder, because podcasting

1367
00:49:44.340 --> 00:49:46.980
- has historically been a little bit behind the

1368
00:49:46.980 --> 00:49:48.360
- times when it comes to,

1369
00:49:49.219 --> 00:49:52.034
- to technology and adopting it. Right. And in

1370
00:49:52.194 --> 00:49:54.355
- improving. And in some ways, this what's happened

1371
00:49:54.355 --> 00:49:57.155
- with HLS and Apple is a, is a

1372
00:49:57.155 --> 00:49:58.755
- sign of that, is that,

1373
00:49:59.315 --> 00:50:01.714
- we kind of fell behind, you know, YouTube

1374
00:50:01.714 --> 00:50:03.954
- and what YouTube was doing, and now we're

1375
00:50:03.954 --> 00:50:06.510
- trying to catch up. Right. And I would

1376
00:50:06.510 --> 00:50:09.550
- apply that same thought process to AI and

1377
00:50:09.550 --> 00:50:10.050
- how

1378
00:50:10.429 --> 00:50:12.050
- it's integrating into the

1379
00:50:12.510 --> 00:50:14.989
- fabric of podcasting and the fabric of new

1380
00:50:14.989 --> 00:50:15.890
- media. Now,

1381
00:50:16.750 --> 00:50:18.909
- what are you seeing these network operators? What

1382
00:50:18.909 --> 00:50:20.210
- are they saying about AI?

1383
00:50:22.775 --> 00:50:24.315
- It's really funny. So

1384
00:50:26.054 --> 00:50:27.894
- this is really timely, and I believe, like,

1385
00:50:27.894 --> 00:50:29.894
- you know, life is about time relationships. You

1386
00:50:29.894 --> 00:50:31.574
- have no clue where conversation is gonna take

1387
00:50:31.574 --> 00:50:33.355
- you. So I think it was

1388
00:50:33.734 --> 00:50:34.234
- yesterday.

1389
00:50:34.849 --> 00:50:37.250
- I was talking to a customer of ours

1390
00:50:37.250 --> 00:50:37.989
- in the RSS,

1391
00:50:38.530 --> 00:50:39.030
- community,

1392
00:50:39.809 --> 00:50:42.230
- and they've got an AI podcast.

1393
00:50:43.809 --> 00:50:47.349
- Oh, it's all all AI generated? It's it's

1394
00:50:47.864 --> 00:50:50.025
- I don't know the full story if it's

1395
00:50:50.025 --> 00:50:52.184
- her stories that are written or if she's

1396
00:50:52.184 --> 00:50:54.664
- using AI to write these stories, then using

1397
00:50:54.664 --> 00:50:56.525
- AI to create the voices.

1398
00:50:57.224 --> 00:51:00.264
- And I'm like and and so we're we're

1399
00:51:00.264 --> 00:51:03.005
- we're messaging back and forth over text. And

1400
00:51:03.349 --> 00:51:05.670
- I'm like, I don't understand why anyone would

1401
00:51:05.670 --> 00:51:08.630
- wanna listen to this AI generated voice to

1402
00:51:08.630 --> 00:51:10.869
- help them sleep because that's what her this

1403
00:51:10.869 --> 00:51:12.090
- specific show is.

1404
00:51:12.390 --> 00:51:15.369
- And she's like, Greg, there's actually research. There's

1405
00:51:15.429 --> 00:51:17.989
- actual people that are saying they'd much rather

1406
00:51:17.989 --> 00:51:19.815
- listen to the monotone

1407
00:51:20.434 --> 00:51:22.614
- AI voice for sleep than

1408
00:51:23.155 --> 00:51:24.835
- the voice of you and I or or

1409
00:51:24.835 --> 00:51:27.094
- maybe, you know, a voice for radio.

1410
00:51:28.114 --> 00:51:30.114
- And and she sent me the the research,

1411
00:51:30.114 --> 00:51:32.515
- and and it was is mind boggling to

1412
00:51:32.515 --> 00:51:33.494
- go like, woah.

1413
00:51:34.340 --> 00:51:37.719
- That is interesting that a human would rather

1414
00:51:38.260 --> 00:51:38.760
- connect

1415
00:51:39.059 --> 00:51:41.400
- for sleep to that AI voice

1416
00:51:41.780 --> 00:51:45.219
- than a realistic human voice because this literally

1417
00:51:45.219 --> 00:51:47.460
- sounds like the Notebook LM voice. Right? We're,

1418
00:51:47.460 --> 00:51:49.394
- like, you know that voice when you hear

1419
00:51:49.394 --> 00:51:49.894
- it.

1420
00:51:50.755 --> 00:51:53.094
- So to hear that and to hear

1421
00:51:53.394 --> 00:51:55.635
- the stats that are being that are coming

1422
00:51:55.635 --> 00:51:56.934
- out and thinking about

1423
00:51:57.795 --> 00:51:58.295
- that,

1424
00:51:58.994 --> 00:51:59.735
- it's alarming.

1425
00:52:00.035 --> 00:52:00.855
- It's sad

1426
00:52:01.779 --> 00:52:02.839
- in many respects.

1427
00:52:04.099 --> 00:52:05.880
- That's a human that's a humanity

1428
00:52:06.259 --> 00:52:08.039
- conversation that we can go down.

1429
00:52:08.819 --> 00:52:10.739
- But to answer your core question of, like,

1430
00:52:10.739 --> 00:52:13.059
- what are networks doing, I'm seeing it across

1431
00:52:13.059 --> 00:52:13.719
- the board.

1432
00:52:14.755 --> 00:52:17.394
- Whether it is using AI for ads, whether

1433
00:52:17.394 --> 00:52:19.574
- it's using AI for podcasts,

1434
00:52:21.635 --> 00:52:23.474
- the standard, you know, how do we just

1435
00:52:23.474 --> 00:52:25.335
- create better scripts and take

1436
00:52:25.795 --> 00:52:27.780
- a I mean, I use AI. I use

1437
00:52:27.780 --> 00:52:30.099
- Cast Magic for my podcast. I record my

1438
00:52:30.099 --> 00:52:32.820
- intro and outro after I've recorded it. So

1439
00:52:32.820 --> 00:52:35.219
- I'll run that podcast through Cast Magic. I

1440
00:52:35.219 --> 00:52:37.539
- have a prompt going, hey, here's my intro,

1441
00:52:37.539 --> 00:52:40.019
- here's my outro. I'll make my modifications from

1442
00:52:40.019 --> 00:52:41.885
- there and then record afterwards.

1443
00:52:42.905 --> 00:52:44.425
- And so, there's so many different ways you

1444
00:52:44.425 --> 00:52:46.684
- can use it from a script writing, from

1445
00:52:46.824 --> 00:52:49.724
- social, but I'm seeing it across the board.

1446
00:52:50.905 --> 00:52:52.344
- And then I'm seeing, of course, a lot

1447
00:52:52.344 --> 00:52:53.885
- of AI networks. Like,

1448
00:52:54.389 --> 00:52:56.789
- the big name, I won't list it because

1449
00:52:56.789 --> 00:52:58.089
- there's no reason to,

1450
00:53:01.029 --> 00:53:04.170
- is is the pinnacle of that.

1451
00:53:04.630 --> 00:53:06.630
- But there's so many networks. I mean, we

1452
00:53:06.789 --> 00:53:08.630
- once we launched rss.com

1453
00:53:08.630 --> 00:53:09.609
- launched our API,

1454
00:53:10.025 --> 00:53:12.045
- I saw how many AI podcasts

1455
00:53:12.425 --> 00:53:15.065
- started creating on our network plan because for

1456
00:53:15.065 --> 00:53:17.465
- $20, you can host as many shows and

1457
00:53:17.465 --> 00:53:18.985
- there you go. And so they've got the

1458
00:53:18.985 --> 00:53:20.744
- API and how many of those shows are

1459
00:53:20.744 --> 00:53:22.079
- now just able to do

1460
00:53:22.559 --> 00:53:24.019
- generic AI content.

1461
00:53:25.360 --> 00:53:27.360
- You can either gamify it. And so this

1462
00:53:27.360 --> 00:53:28.820
- reminds me back to the

1463
00:53:29.519 --> 00:53:32.559
- early two thousands where pod or not podcast,

1464
00:53:32.559 --> 00:53:33.860
- websites were just creating

1465
00:53:35.534 --> 00:53:38.655
- whatever articles they want. They I was selling,

1466
00:53:38.894 --> 00:53:40.414
- pay per click at the time. So, you

1467
00:53:40.414 --> 00:53:42.414
- know, pay a dollar to drive traffic to

1468
00:53:42.414 --> 00:53:45.054
- a website that's got $10 worth of ads

1469
00:53:45.054 --> 00:53:46.894
- on there, and you just arbitrage it. So

1470
00:53:46.894 --> 00:53:48.674
- we're seeing the arbitrary arbitration.

1471
00:53:49.409 --> 00:53:50.789
- I don't even know if that's a word

1472
00:53:50.929 --> 00:53:53.170
- of that with podcasting right now because it's

1473
00:53:53.170 --> 00:53:55.489
- easy to go to an Amaze, to go

1474
00:53:55.489 --> 00:53:56.309
- to a MoPod,

1475
00:53:56.849 --> 00:53:58.710
- buy traffic, use bots,

1476
00:53:59.250 --> 00:53:59.750
- and

1477
00:54:00.609 --> 00:54:03.569
- and generate revenue by I'll pay this company

1478
00:54:03.569 --> 00:54:06.605
- x, I'll make x plus y, and

1479
00:54:07.144 --> 00:54:08.445
- and you do that at scale.

1480
00:54:08.824 --> 00:54:11.005
- That that's exactly an easy thing to do.

1481
00:54:11.864 --> 00:54:12.505
- Yeah. I love

1482
00:54:13.465 --> 00:54:15.005
- I I would agree

1483
00:54:15.545 --> 00:54:17.945
- in general and even beyond what you're saying

1484
00:54:17.945 --> 00:54:18.265
- about,

1485
00:54:19.380 --> 00:54:19.880
- how,

1486
00:54:20.179 --> 00:54:23.239
- how people are increasingly trying to use AI

1487
00:54:23.859 --> 00:54:26.739
- in their content, in their production and their

1488
00:54:26.739 --> 00:54:28.199
- workflows and the,

1489
00:54:28.579 --> 00:54:29.960
- the agentic workflow.

1490
00:54:31.299 --> 00:54:33.539
- The, the last episode that, that I did

1491
00:54:33.539 --> 00:54:34.039
- really,

1492
00:54:34.414 --> 00:54:36.994
- did a deep dive on agentic workflows

1493
00:54:37.534 --> 00:54:38.815
- when it comes to,

1494
00:54:40.094 --> 00:54:40.755
- you know,

1495
00:54:41.054 --> 00:54:44.655
- not necessarily creating the content entirely, but to

1496
00:54:44.655 --> 00:54:45.155
- augment,

1497
00:54:47.309 --> 00:54:49.010
- its production and distribution

1498
00:54:49.309 --> 00:54:49.809
- and

1499
00:54:50.110 --> 00:54:53.470
- social media and all these layers of things

1500
00:54:53.470 --> 00:54:55.869
- that, humans have typically had to do. And

1501
00:54:55.869 --> 00:54:58.289
- that's, you know, typically why we've seen,

1502
00:54:59.710 --> 00:55:01.170
- larger creators hire,

1503
00:55:01.695 --> 00:55:03.375
- you know, good sized teams, you know, like

1504
00:55:03.375 --> 00:55:05.295
- a Steven Bartlett with the diary of CEO

1505
00:55:05.295 --> 00:55:07.055
- is a good example. He's got like 60

1506
00:55:07.055 --> 00:55:09.055
- people that work for him to produce that

1507
00:55:09.055 --> 00:55:11.775
- show. And he spends anywhere from 40 to

1508
00:55:11.775 --> 00:55:13.055
- $100,000

1509
00:55:13.055 --> 00:55:14.835
- on each episode that he produces.

1510
00:55:15.219 --> 00:55:18.340
- Because he's making maybe 4 or $500,000

1511
00:55:18.340 --> 00:55:19.719
- on every episode he publishes.

1512
00:55:20.340 --> 00:55:21.559
- So, you know, it's,

1513
00:55:21.940 --> 00:55:24.599
- it's the economics of it that is pushing

1514
00:55:24.660 --> 00:55:25.160
- this.

1515
00:55:25.860 --> 00:55:27.800
- Is a Steven Bartlett going to,

1516
00:55:28.295 --> 00:55:29.494
- you know, two years from now, is he

1517
00:55:29.494 --> 00:55:30.954
- going to fire all of his

1518
00:55:31.255 --> 00:55:33.994
- staff and just have, you know, 15

1519
00:55:34.614 --> 00:55:37.094
- agents that are doing all those processes for

1520
00:55:37.094 --> 00:55:37.594
- him?

1521
00:55:38.295 --> 00:55:40.155
- I, I, I think it's a possibility

1522
00:55:40.820 --> 00:55:42.280
- that that could, could happen.

1523
00:55:43.380 --> 00:55:45.619
- I think it's still early for the podcast

1524
00:55:45.619 --> 00:55:46.599
- space to

1525
00:55:47.139 --> 00:55:49.559
- understand and embrace to some degree,

1526
00:55:50.019 --> 00:55:50.920
- you know, agentic,

1527
00:55:52.019 --> 00:55:55.454
- type agents and, and AI technology. And I'm

1528
00:55:55.454 --> 00:55:57.155
- trying to go all in on it and

1529
00:55:57.614 --> 00:55:59.375
- learn, you know, what's going on with it

1530
00:55:59.375 --> 00:56:00.755
- because I think it's transformational.

1531
00:56:01.934 --> 00:56:04.894
- But the AI generated stuff is really got

1532
00:56:04.894 --> 00:56:06.275
- people spun up and

1533
00:56:06.735 --> 00:56:09.295
- worried and concerned about, you know, like you

1534
00:56:09.295 --> 00:56:10.114
- said, humanity.

1535
00:56:11.170 --> 00:56:13.809
- You know, where does where does humanity fit

1536
00:56:13.809 --> 00:56:14.550
- into this

1537
00:56:14.929 --> 00:56:15.429
- this

1538
00:56:16.050 --> 00:56:18.710
- emerging ecosystem that is happening around

1539
00:56:19.090 --> 00:56:19.750
- AI content?

1540
00:56:20.210 --> 00:56:22.849
- And there's a growing backlash. Right? That's been

1541
00:56:22.849 --> 00:56:25.215
- building, you know, humans feel threatened by it

1542
00:56:25.695 --> 00:56:27.715
- on one hand, and it's there's

1543
00:56:28.094 --> 00:56:29.875
- that's a rational thought process

1544
00:56:30.335 --> 00:56:31.235
- to some degree.

1545
00:56:31.775 --> 00:56:34.735
- It can become a little irrational, but that's

1546
00:56:34.735 --> 00:56:36.994
- that that's kind of a progression that happens.

1547
00:56:37.855 --> 00:56:38.414
- But it's

1548
00:56:39.320 --> 00:56:41.579
- yeah, it's really interesting to see how

1549
00:56:42.280 --> 00:56:44.519
- AI is going to impact all this stuff.

1550
00:56:44.519 --> 00:56:46.840
- And, you know, the other layer to this

1551
00:56:46.840 --> 00:56:47.659
- too, is,

1552
00:56:48.199 --> 00:56:49.960
- is AI is going to be the first

1553
00:56:49.960 --> 00:56:50.780
- one to,

1554
00:56:51.239 --> 00:56:53.099
- sees your content, your human content,

1555
00:56:53.424 --> 00:56:55.184
- and it's going to evaluate it, and it's

1556
00:56:55.184 --> 00:56:57.344
- going to decide who gets to see it.

1557
00:56:57.344 --> 00:56:58.964
- Yes. And the pathways

1558
00:56:59.264 --> 00:57:02.404
- for consumption are increasingly going to be through

1559
00:57:02.944 --> 00:57:03.844
- AI interfaces.

1560
00:57:05.105 --> 00:57:07.284
- So this, the age of

1561
00:57:07.719 --> 00:57:10.680
- Apple podcasts in this certain form it is

1562
00:57:10.680 --> 00:57:12.300
- today, or Spotify,

1563
00:57:13.800 --> 00:57:15.579
- or even to some degree, YouTube,

1564
00:57:16.360 --> 00:57:18.460
- may not last too much longer.

1565
00:57:19.400 --> 00:57:21.719
- The the and that's another layer on this

1566
00:57:21.719 --> 00:57:23.180
- too, is that we're gonna be,

1567
00:57:23.844 --> 00:57:25.785
- you know, enslaved by the algorithm.

1568
00:57:26.405 --> 00:57:27.465
- And that's really

1569
00:57:28.005 --> 00:57:31.204
- AI is an algorithm. So it's there's not

1570
00:57:31.204 --> 00:57:32.985
- much of a daylight between

1571
00:57:33.285 --> 00:57:34.265
- AI and algorithms.

1572
00:57:34.724 --> 00:57:37.285
- So And I mean, for anyone that's listening,

1573
00:57:37.285 --> 00:57:39.179
- I'll let you know. I've lost two jobs

1574
00:57:39.339 --> 00:57:40.559
- in a sense because

1575
00:57:41.339 --> 00:57:43.440
- social media companies change their algorithms.

1576
00:57:44.859 --> 00:57:47.119
- Used to be at the largest publisher

1577
00:57:47.420 --> 00:57:48.480
- of Facebook content.

1578
00:57:49.099 --> 00:57:50.480
- Yeah. 2017,

1579
00:57:50.619 --> 00:57:52.859
- you know, I always market as the Cambridge

1580
00:57:52.859 --> 00:57:54.944
- Analytica even that. Yeah. I remember that. That's

1581
00:57:54.944 --> 00:57:56.505
- not it, you know? Like, that wasn't a

1582
00:57:56.505 --> 00:57:58.105
- reason but, like, that was a big thing.

1583
00:57:58.105 --> 00:57:59.784
- Facebook changed the algorithm and we went from

1584
00:57:59.784 --> 00:58:01.864
- 5,000,000,000 views a month to a billion views.

1585
00:58:01.864 --> 00:58:04.025
- I mean, monetizing that, you're like, there goes

1586
00:58:04.025 --> 00:58:06.184
- the company. Now, the company, of course, rebuilt

1587
00:58:06.184 --> 00:58:08.045
- but, like, they had to let people go.

1588
00:58:08.760 --> 00:58:09.820
- We had the largest

1589
00:58:10.199 --> 00:58:11.179
- Pinterest page

1590
00:58:11.719 --> 00:58:14.039
- and I was doing one post would do

1591
00:58:14.039 --> 00:58:14.780
- 3,000,000

1592
00:58:14.840 --> 00:58:17.900
- organic views a week. Pinterest changed the algorithm

1593
00:58:18.039 --> 00:58:19.820
- and went down to 300,000.

1594
00:58:20.280 --> 00:58:22.599
- I couldn't sell I could easily sell 3,000,000,

1595
00:58:23.105 --> 00:58:24.864
- because everyone's like, woah, one post and I

1596
00:58:24.864 --> 00:58:27.045
- get 3,000,000 views organically? Incredible.

1597
00:58:27.344 --> 00:58:28.404
- 300,000?

1598
00:58:28.704 --> 00:58:30.324
- Not so much. So

1599
00:58:30.944 --> 00:58:32.085
- it's a very different,

1600
00:58:32.704 --> 00:58:34.864
- vibe. So if we are then always tied

1601
00:58:34.864 --> 00:58:35.844
- to an algorithm,

1602
00:58:36.690 --> 00:58:38.210
- then that's a terrible thing. And then if

1603
00:58:38.210 --> 00:58:40.389
- we go back to your AI component here,

1604
00:58:40.769 --> 00:58:41.829
- I'm a people person.

1605
00:58:42.289 --> 00:58:43.969
- If you can't listen to this, I talk

1606
00:58:43.969 --> 00:58:45.269
- for a living. I

1607
00:58:45.650 --> 00:58:47.109
- title is head relationships.

1608
00:58:47.409 --> 00:58:49.030
- I love talking. So,

1609
00:58:49.755 --> 00:58:51.514
- as much as I love the gorillas and

1610
00:58:51.514 --> 00:58:53.775
- going to see the gorillas live where

1611
00:58:54.154 --> 00:58:56.335
- you don't really see the band, it is

1612
00:58:56.635 --> 00:58:58.234
- the the the screen and they've got the

1613
00:58:58.234 --> 00:58:59.934
- entire animation there.

1614
00:59:00.394 --> 00:59:03.300
- There's something about, a, going to event. There's

1615
00:59:03.300 --> 00:59:05.860
- something about going to meet a podcaster, to

1616
00:59:05.860 --> 00:59:08.200
- meet an artist, to meet an experience.

1617
00:59:09.619 --> 00:59:11.559
- I can't imagine going to

1618
00:59:11.940 --> 00:59:14.500
- a live podcast recording when it's not really

1619
00:59:14.500 --> 00:59:17.320
- a live podcast recording, and it's these virtual

1620
00:59:17.380 --> 00:59:17.880
- hologramic

1621
00:59:18.554 --> 00:59:19.054
- voices.

1622
00:59:20.315 --> 00:59:22.315
- And and and something about that just feels

1623
00:59:22.315 --> 00:59:24.474
- like you're bringing the community together. It's like,

1624
00:59:24.474 --> 00:59:26.734
- okay, all of us who love this person,

1625
00:59:26.875 --> 00:59:28.175
- this person, quote unquote,

1626
00:59:29.034 --> 00:59:30.480
- is there, but it's like

1627
00:59:31.519 --> 00:59:33.199
- and so that's why I use Gorillaz because,

1628
00:59:33.199 --> 00:59:35.039
- hey, they are massive, but they are not

1629
00:59:35.599 --> 00:59:37.519
- no one really knew who the voices were

1630
00:59:37.519 --> 00:59:39.920
- behind them because we're just used to the

1631
00:59:39.920 --> 00:59:40.420
- animations.

1632
00:59:40.880 --> 00:59:43.359
- Sure. And so we are seeing a lot

1633
00:59:43.359 --> 00:59:44.880
- more. You and I both know a couple

1634
00:59:44.880 --> 00:59:46.340
- of companies that are doing

1635
00:59:46.775 --> 00:59:47.994
- now AI video,

1636
00:59:49.494 --> 00:59:52.055
- to match just the vocal side of the

1637
00:59:52.055 --> 00:59:53.735
- audio components. So it's like, hey. I don't

1638
00:59:53.735 --> 00:59:54.715
- wanna do video

1639
00:59:55.255 --> 00:59:57.094
- on screen, but give me this, and they're

1640
00:59:57.094 --> 00:59:58.155
- able to do that.

1641
00:59:59.735 --> 01:00:01.434
- AI video podcasts are coming.

1642
01:00:01.735 --> 01:00:02.599
- Yeah. We

1643
01:00:02.980 --> 01:00:05.160
- we we just haven't seen it yet.

1644
01:00:05.700 --> 01:00:06.599
- So it's

1645
01:00:07.140 --> 01:00:09.700
- But there's something to be, like, once again,

1646
01:00:09.700 --> 01:00:11.559
- the podcast I'm listening to right now,

1647
01:00:12.500 --> 01:00:15.434
- if it was AI journalist, which you could,

1648
01:00:15.675 --> 01:00:18.175
- technically, you could probably create this show

1649
01:00:19.195 --> 01:00:19.695
- to

1650
01:00:19.994 --> 01:00:22.474
- most degree, maybe not today, but pretty soon

1651
01:00:22.474 --> 01:00:24.015
- AI. The difference is

1652
01:00:24.954 --> 01:00:27.114
- the stories that are being told on it,

1653
01:00:27.114 --> 01:00:27.614
- where

1654
01:00:28.000 --> 01:00:28.739
- it is,

1655
01:00:29.280 --> 01:00:31.039
- I met my buddy and my buddy told

1656
01:00:31.039 --> 01:00:32.400
- me this, and I met this, and I

1657
01:00:32.400 --> 01:00:33.920
- met this and that. And so it's like

1658
01:00:33.920 --> 01:00:36.480
- a humanistic side of it. You could probably

1659
01:00:36.480 --> 01:00:38.880
- tell the story without that humanistic side, but

1660
01:00:38.880 --> 01:00:41.059
- something about that humanistic side

1661
01:00:41.765 --> 01:00:42.744
- makes the story

1662
01:00:43.045 --> 01:00:45.364
- far better than what actually the story ends

1663
01:00:45.364 --> 01:00:46.585
- up being. And

1664
01:00:47.125 --> 01:00:48.025
- and Sure.

1665
01:00:48.325 --> 01:00:50.244
- I will want that. And then there'll be

1666
01:00:50.244 --> 01:00:51.925
- people like, I don't need that kind of

1667
01:00:51.925 --> 01:00:54.565
- story. Just give me the insights. Is this

1668
01:00:54.565 --> 01:00:57.190
- true? Is it false? What happened? Break it

1669
01:00:57.190 --> 01:00:59.690
- down into a thirty minute episode.

1670
01:01:00.230 --> 01:01:01.530
- Give me the facts, Jack,

1671
01:01:01.829 --> 01:01:04.090
- episode. Right? Is that what it is? Yeah.

1672
01:01:04.150 --> 01:01:05.590
- Well, that's what AI is gonna be good

1673
01:01:05.590 --> 01:01:06.090
- at.

1674
01:01:06.869 --> 01:01:08.630
- It's gonna be good at giving you, you

1675
01:01:08.630 --> 01:01:09.610
- know, some

1676
01:01:10.265 --> 01:01:12.684
- some version of the facts of sorts,

1677
01:01:13.864 --> 01:01:15.565
- to be realistic about it.

1678
01:01:16.184 --> 01:01:16.844
- You know,

1679
01:01:17.144 --> 01:01:19.724
- AI is not known for, you know, it's

1680
01:01:20.025 --> 01:01:21.724
- it's candor or it's

1681
01:01:22.025 --> 01:01:23.885
- transparency of sorts, but

1682
01:01:24.500 --> 01:01:27.719
- that's a whole nother discussion on AI, but

1683
01:01:27.780 --> 01:01:28.280
- it's,

1684
01:01:28.980 --> 01:01:31.380
- I do think that it's, it's going to

1685
01:01:31.380 --> 01:01:32.440
- have a revolutionary

1686
01:01:32.980 --> 01:01:36.039
- impact on what we're doing here. And,

1687
01:01:36.594 --> 01:01:37.255
- you know,

1688
01:01:38.355 --> 01:01:40.035
- I'll ask you this question. Do you ever

1689
01:01:40.035 --> 01:01:41.574
- see yourself creating a,

1690
01:01:42.035 --> 01:01:43.815
- a, a Greg Wasserman,

1691
01:01:44.434 --> 01:01:45.255
- AI clone?

1692
01:01:45.555 --> 01:01:46.535
- Like you're doing,

1693
01:01:47.155 --> 01:01:48.594
- well, I haven't done it yet. You haven't

1694
01:01:48.594 --> 01:01:50.994
- done it yet. No, no. Mark Zuckerberg is

1695
01:01:50.994 --> 01:01:51.494
- doing

1696
01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:52.579
- or. Clone

1697
01:01:52.880 --> 01:01:55.119
- myself yet, but, but I do think it's

1698
01:01:55.119 --> 01:01:57.840
- an interesting experiment to do. And it's,

1699
01:01:58.800 --> 01:02:00.900
- you know, how close are we to

1700
01:02:01.599 --> 01:02:02.500
- being indistinguishable?

1701
01:02:03.039 --> 01:02:05.360
- And I've had this conversation on past episodes

1702
01:02:05.360 --> 01:02:07.984
- of this podcast or the show.

1703
01:02:09.164 --> 01:02:11.244
- We are getting very close. If you look

1704
01:02:11.244 --> 01:02:13.184
- at the latest models

1705
01:02:13.565 --> 01:02:16.065
- that are out there, the, the HeyGen and,

1706
01:02:16.364 --> 01:02:16.864
- and,

1707
01:02:17.644 --> 01:02:19.565
- and some of the models that are available

1708
01:02:19.565 --> 01:02:20.065
- through

1709
01:02:21.339 --> 01:02:21.839
- Gemini,

1710
01:02:22.619 --> 01:02:23.119
- there's,

1711
01:02:23.739 --> 01:02:25.599
- we're getting very close to

1712
01:02:26.059 --> 01:02:27.359
- not being able to tell,

1713
01:02:28.139 --> 01:02:30.219
- and be able to create different versions of

1714
01:02:30.219 --> 01:02:30.960
- our avatars,

1715
01:02:31.819 --> 01:02:32.559
- very quickly,

1716
01:02:33.474 --> 01:02:36.114
- That will put us in different clothes, put

1717
01:02:36.114 --> 01:02:37.255
- us in different hairstyles,

1718
01:02:37.954 --> 01:02:40.775
- have us with hats on and without hats.

1719
01:02:42.034 --> 01:02:44.914
- And we can just interchange these and make

1720
01:02:44.914 --> 01:02:46.295
- them, you know,

1721
01:02:47.420 --> 01:02:48.860
- So, I mean, I think we're just coming

1722
01:02:48.860 --> 01:02:50.700
- into a weird era. Right? And I think

1723
01:02:50.700 --> 01:02:51.900
- at the end of the day, it's about

1724
01:02:51.900 --> 01:02:52.400
- trust.

1725
01:02:53.900 --> 01:02:55.599
- Are you disclosing this stuff,

1726
01:02:56.539 --> 01:02:58.700
- that you're doing this? I think we're entering

1727
01:02:58.700 --> 01:02:59.599
- a time where

1728
01:03:00.614 --> 01:03:02.715
- identifying your content as human

1729
01:03:03.255 --> 01:03:06.054
- hosted content or human content is going to

1730
01:03:06.054 --> 01:03:08.695
- be more important than labeling it as AI

1731
01:03:08.695 --> 01:03:09.195
- content.

1732
01:03:09.574 --> 01:03:12.135
- I love that. I mean, you've you and

1733
01:03:12.135 --> 01:03:13.815
- I both probably read the same trades, but

1734
01:03:13.815 --> 01:03:15.869
- I love what Dan Kendall from, the health

1735
01:03:15.950 --> 01:03:18.349
- Podcast Library and Health Podcast Network said. It's

1736
01:03:18.349 --> 01:03:20.190
- like, hold on. If this is medical and

1737
01:03:20.190 --> 01:03:22.690
- your AI posing as medical, that should be,

1738
01:03:23.230 --> 01:03:24.190
- a, taken down or,

1739
01:03:25.230 --> 01:03:27.470
- notified. Yeah. Call call the AI a doctor

1740
01:03:27.470 --> 01:03:30.244
- there. Alright. Even even when you're watching a

1741
01:03:30.244 --> 01:03:32.644
- a commercial in the bottom fine print, this

1742
01:03:32.644 --> 01:03:34.965
- is a portray actor portrayal of a doctor.

1743
01:03:34.965 --> 01:03:35.465
- So

1744
01:03:35.925 --> 01:03:36.905
- if if

1745
01:03:37.525 --> 01:03:39.605
- the the advertising see that, though. I mean,

1746
01:03:39.605 --> 01:03:40.885
- Greg, a lot lot lot of people will

1747
01:03:40.885 --> 01:03:42.724
- see that disclaimer in the show notes. I

1748
01:03:42.724 --> 01:03:44.750
- mean, how many people read show notes? How

1749
01:03:44.750 --> 01:03:46.269
- many people can read the fine print, but

1750
01:03:46.269 --> 01:03:48.269
- at least it's there. Right? So Well, it

1751
01:03:48.269 --> 01:03:50.109
- is there, but it probably needs to be

1752
01:03:50.109 --> 01:03:52.130
- on the screen. Yes. But I've

1753
01:03:52.510 --> 01:03:54.190
- you know, if I'm using AI in any

1754
01:03:54.190 --> 01:03:55.789
- of the visuals like I did with the

1755
01:03:55.789 --> 01:03:56.289
- the

1756
01:03:57.069 --> 01:03:58.369
- intro to this show,

1757
01:03:58.724 --> 01:04:00.405
- I did put a little bug in there

1758
01:04:00.405 --> 01:04:02.164
- that says AI. That was AI? I thought

1759
01:04:02.164 --> 01:04:04.005
- that was a real person. I'm joking. Well,

1760
01:04:04.005 --> 01:04:04.905
- you know, it

1761
01:04:05.364 --> 01:04:07.204
- it it certainly didn't sound like me, but

1762
01:04:07.204 --> 01:04:09.785
- it kinda had a likeness to me. Yeah.

1763
01:04:10.164 --> 01:04:12.090
- And it plays well on the audio side.

1764
01:04:12.329 --> 01:04:12.829
- So

1765
01:04:13.210 --> 01:04:14.489
- that's the thing. And that's the other thing

1766
01:04:14.489 --> 01:04:16.730
- we haven't really talked about too, is, is

1767
01:04:16.730 --> 01:04:18.510
- this tension now exists between

1768
01:04:19.050 --> 01:04:20.670
- being a video first grader.

1769
01:04:21.610 --> 01:04:23.210
- And I'm sure a lot of these networks

1770
01:04:23.210 --> 01:04:25.210
- are dealing with this issue right now, too,

1771
01:04:25.210 --> 01:04:27.275
- is that as we move into this HLS

1772
01:04:27.414 --> 01:04:28.635
- era in podcasting,

1773
01:04:29.335 --> 01:04:31.914
- you know, there's going to be increasing consumption

1774
01:04:32.135 --> 01:04:33.114
- of audio

1775
01:04:33.574 --> 01:04:34.954
- that comes out of the video

1776
01:04:35.494 --> 01:04:37.994
- as a replacement for a separate MP3

1777
01:04:38.579 --> 01:04:39.079
- experience.

1778
01:04:39.780 --> 01:04:40.280
- Right.

1779
01:04:40.980 --> 01:04:42.980
- And I do, I have noticed that a

1780
01:04:42.980 --> 01:04:43.880
- couple of platforms,

1781
01:04:44.180 --> 01:04:46.119
- I think Captivate was one of them that

1782
01:04:46.260 --> 01:04:48.340
- has built in a separate RSS feed in

1783
01:04:48.340 --> 01:04:51.239
- their account that you can publish audio into

1784
01:04:52.664 --> 01:04:54.605
- versus the HLS stuff.

1785
01:04:55.465 --> 01:04:55.965
- So

1786
01:04:56.344 --> 01:04:58.265
- it's going back to what this show has

1787
01:04:58.265 --> 01:05:00.184
- been doing for fourteen years is I've got

1788
01:05:00.184 --> 01:05:02.285
- an audio feed and a video feed.

1789
01:05:04.105 --> 01:05:07.139
- So the whole HLS thing didn't entirely solve

1790
01:05:07.139 --> 01:05:10.440
- that dilemma. Right. It was, you know, so

1791
01:05:10.579 --> 01:05:12.420
- if you want to create a different audio

1792
01:05:12.420 --> 01:05:14.260
- experience for your show, which is what I

1793
01:05:14.260 --> 01:05:15.319
- do with this show,

1794
01:05:16.099 --> 01:05:17.960
- I do a deeper edit. I do

1795
01:05:18.585 --> 01:05:20.984
- other types of transitions and things like that

1796
01:05:20.984 --> 01:05:22.585
- in the audio than I do from the

1797
01:05:22.585 --> 01:05:25.005
- video because the video is video. Right?

1798
01:05:26.025 --> 01:05:28.684
- Audio always takes a back seat on video.

1799
01:05:29.144 --> 01:05:29.644
- So

1800
01:05:30.025 --> 01:05:31.784
- it's kinda hard to avoid it, though. I

1801
01:05:31.784 --> 01:05:32.880
- think Justin,

1802
01:05:34.059 --> 01:05:37.119
- Justin Jackson from transistor is trying to

1803
01:05:37.579 --> 01:05:40.380
- figure that that issue out with his new

1804
01:05:40.380 --> 01:05:40.880
- show.

1805
01:05:41.260 --> 01:05:41.579
- But,

1806
01:05:42.699 --> 01:05:44.859
- I think it's possible to do that, but

1807
01:05:44.859 --> 01:05:46.880
- you have to be very conscious and very,

1808
01:05:48.105 --> 01:05:50.264
- deliberate about it in order to If we

1809
01:05:50.264 --> 01:05:52.985
- are a Right. If if new creators that

1810
01:05:52.985 --> 01:05:55.625
- are coming out don't know the difference, therefore,

1811
01:05:55.625 --> 01:05:57.304
- I don't think they're gonna care. If we

1812
01:05:57.304 --> 01:05:57.965
- look at,

1813
01:05:58.985 --> 01:06:00.445
- Tidal, I think, right?

1814
01:06:00.824 --> 01:06:02.125
- Was it Jay z's

1815
01:06:02.460 --> 01:06:04.219
- platform where it was supposed to be a

1816
01:06:04.219 --> 01:06:06.699
- music that was high def and how many

1817
01:06:06.699 --> 01:06:09.760
- people were paying attention and focusing on that?

1818
01:06:11.659 --> 01:06:13.739
- There's there's always gonna be a subset. You

1819
01:06:13.739 --> 01:06:15.359
- just have to figure out the economics

1820
01:06:15.659 --> 01:06:16.159
- there.

1821
01:06:16.625 --> 01:06:19.344
- And I think if more creators right now

1822
01:06:19.344 --> 01:06:21.605
- don't understand the difference or the value

1823
01:06:21.905 --> 01:06:24.065
- or we're so focused and we're pushing people

1824
01:06:24.065 --> 01:06:25.045
- to do video,

1825
01:06:25.664 --> 01:06:28.224
- you're gonna lose that component, but there will

1826
01:06:28.224 --> 01:06:29.444
- still be a subset.

1827
01:06:30.230 --> 01:06:31.269
- I mean, I look at how many of

1828
01:06:31.269 --> 01:06:33.109
- my creators at rss.com

1829
01:06:33.109 --> 01:06:34.710
- are like, I don't do social. I'm like,

1830
01:06:34.710 --> 01:06:36.309
- how do you grow? Well, there's other ways

1831
01:06:36.309 --> 01:06:38.409
- to grow, which just becomes a harder struggle,

1832
01:06:39.269 --> 01:06:41.269
- even if that's not your focus of growth,

1833
01:06:41.269 --> 01:06:43.529
- but you just want to have that conversation

1834
01:06:43.589 --> 01:06:46.194
- with the guests you're bringing on. So, I

1835
01:06:46.194 --> 01:06:46.694
- think

1836
01:06:47.234 --> 01:06:49.554
- we'll play no matter what, we're always gonna

1837
01:06:49.554 --> 01:06:51.094
- continue to play to these algorithms.

1838
01:06:51.714 --> 01:06:53.635
- It's it's up to us as creators to

1839
01:06:53.635 --> 01:06:55.635
- decide, do I wanna play into this? Do

1840
01:06:55.635 --> 01:06:57.074
- I have to play the game? Or how

1841
01:06:57.074 --> 01:06:58.835
- do I play this game? I think from

1842
01:06:58.835 --> 01:06:59.894
- a network standpoint,

1843
01:07:01.079 --> 01:07:02.539
- each network is operating

1844
01:07:02.920 --> 01:07:04.940
- in a very different space of understanding.

1845
01:07:05.559 --> 01:07:07.019
- Is this the game I'm playing?

1846
01:07:07.640 --> 01:07:09.480
- Or am I writing a manual? Look at,

1847
01:07:09.480 --> 01:07:11.099
- like, Marc Le Corre and OGGN,

1848
01:07:11.640 --> 01:07:13.880
- all owned and operated, all oil and gas

1849
01:07:13.880 --> 01:07:15.739
- shows, and he's making

1850
01:07:16.215 --> 01:07:18.454
- significant amount of money on doing live shows

1851
01:07:18.454 --> 01:07:21.494
- as well. So does he need to play

1852
01:07:21.494 --> 01:07:21.994
- into,

1853
01:07:22.855 --> 01:07:25.114
- some of the other sponsorship models that

1854
01:07:26.135 --> 01:07:29.035
- that a iHeart is is playing into? No.

1855
01:07:29.255 --> 01:07:29.755
- So

1856
01:07:30.190 --> 01:07:31.329
- I think there's possibilities

1857
01:07:32.190 --> 01:07:34.349
- as the medium shifts, those that are staying

1858
01:07:34.349 --> 01:07:35.789
- on top of it, thanks to your show,

1859
01:07:35.789 --> 01:07:38.050
- that are keeping people around the new medium,

1860
01:07:38.989 --> 01:07:40.210
- but also understanding

1861
01:07:41.789 --> 01:07:44.324
- Yeah. Is this aligned with what I need

1862
01:07:44.405 --> 01:07:46.744
- to do? Is this aligned with my values?

1863
01:07:47.605 --> 01:07:49.684
- And and I think a lot of the

1864
01:07:49.684 --> 01:07:51.464
- shows that I've talked to so far,

1865
01:07:52.005 --> 01:07:52.984
- they're community

1866
01:07:53.284 --> 01:07:54.184
- value based

1867
01:07:55.125 --> 01:07:56.264
- as opposed to

1868
01:07:57.059 --> 01:07:58.360
- how do we just maximize

1869
01:07:58.739 --> 01:08:00.680
- our core revenue with ads?

1870
01:08:01.940 --> 01:08:04.099
- Yeah. I hope that we move into an

1871
01:08:04.099 --> 01:08:07.160
- era here as we've we've kinda shifted to

1872
01:08:08.099 --> 01:08:11.219
- a significant amount of creators being video first,

1873
01:08:11.619 --> 01:08:12.280
- that we

1874
01:08:12.695 --> 01:08:15.815
- see the audio first creators really double down

1875
01:08:15.815 --> 01:08:16.875
- on what they're doing

1876
01:08:17.975 --> 01:08:18.954
- and, and really

1877
01:08:19.414 --> 01:08:19.914
- increasingly

1878
01:08:20.295 --> 01:08:22.475
- create compelling audio experiences

1879
01:08:23.414 --> 01:08:25.835
- in their audio feeds. So they can,

1880
01:08:26.149 --> 01:08:28.310
- they can still stand out right in a

1881
01:08:28.310 --> 01:08:30.649
- way that we'll be able to compete against

1882
01:08:30.710 --> 01:08:32.630
- the onslaught of video that we're going to

1883
01:08:32.630 --> 01:08:33.770
- see in the future.

1884
01:08:34.310 --> 01:08:36.710
- And that could come into areas like spatial

1885
01:08:36.710 --> 01:08:39.189
- audio. It could come into more advanced kind

1886
01:08:39.189 --> 01:08:41.210
- of models of how to produce

1887
01:08:41.985 --> 01:08:43.204
- compelling and

1888
01:08:43.585 --> 01:08:46.864
- interesting sounding audio experiences. And I hope that

1889
01:08:46.864 --> 01:08:48.784
- the industry kind of doubles down on that.

1890
01:08:48.784 --> 01:08:50.244
- And we actually

1891
01:08:51.185 --> 01:08:52.564
- need to do that. I think,

1892
01:08:53.505 --> 01:08:55.425
- unless we're going to go down this model

1893
01:08:55.425 --> 01:08:56.779
- of, of increasing

1894
01:08:57.239 --> 01:08:57.739
- sophistication

1895
01:08:58.039 --> 01:09:01.099
- around AI generated audio experiences, which,

1896
01:09:02.760 --> 01:09:04.300
- which is an interesting question.

1897
01:09:05.639 --> 01:09:07.399
- How far down that rabbit hole do we

1898
01:09:07.399 --> 01:09:08.920
- want to go and how far down that

1899
01:09:08.920 --> 01:09:11.079
- rabbit hole will the technology be able to

1900
01:09:11.079 --> 01:09:11.595
- take us?

1901
01:09:12.155 --> 01:09:13.614
- Because from what I'm seeing,

1902
01:09:15.354 --> 01:09:17.215
- it just in the next twelve months,

1903
01:09:18.395 --> 01:09:20.875
- we could see a very different landscape for

1904
01:09:20.875 --> 01:09:21.775
- content creation.

1905
01:09:22.315 --> 01:09:22.815
- And

1906
01:09:23.195 --> 01:09:25.295
- I, I worry about that because,

1907
01:09:25.859 --> 01:09:26.760
- you know, people

1908
01:09:27.139 --> 01:09:28.979
- are going to get lost in the shuffle

1909
01:09:28.979 --> 01:09:29.479
- here

1910
01:09:30.340 --> 01:09:31.639
- because of that transition.

1911
01:09:32.100 --> 01:09:33.300
- Because of some of the stuff that I'm

1912
01:09:33.300 --> 01:09:35.060
- seeing out of Silicon Valley, and I'm going

1913
01:09:35.060 --> 01:09:36.579
- to be bringing you onto the show for

1914
01:09:36.579 --> 01:09:37.800
- other people to see.

1915
01:09:39.204 --> 01:09:41.704
- We are coming into an era of,

1916
01:09:42.164 --> 01:09:42.664
- of

1917
01:09:43.204 --> 01:09:44.744
- full spectrum interactivity

1918
01:09:45.685 --> 01:09:46.185
- with

1919
01:09:46.725 --> 01:09:50.505
- audio experiences and increasingly video. So the audience

1920
01:09:50.564 --> 01:09:51.385
- can actually

1921
01:09:51.770 --> 01:09:53.710
- have their own unique experience

1922
01:09:55.130 --> 01:09:56.109
- in a show,

1923
01:09:56.890 --> 01:09:58.909
- right? It doesn't have to be this

1924
01:09:59.289 --> 01:10:02.010
- record and distribute to everyone. It can be

1925
01:10:02.010 --> 01:10:02.510
- a,

1926
01:10:03.050 --> 01:10:05.710
- a program that's interactive with a human audience,

1927
01:10:06.095 --> 01:10:06.835
- but is

1928
01:10:07.215 --> 01:10:07.715
- customized

1929
01:10:08.095 --> 01:10:09.795
- to every audience member.

1930
01:10:10.414 --> 01:10:11.314
- And so

1931
01:10:11.935 --> 01:10:14.095
- that's a whole different way of thinking about

1932
01:10:14.095 --> 01:10:16.814
- content. So which is what that's the era

1933
01:10:16.814 --> 01:10:19.314
- that we're moving into. And it's, you know,

1934
01:10:19.454 --> 01:10:21.395
- we sell. Yeah. I look at,

1935
01:10:22.380 --> 01:10:24.939
- Peter Feroli with Pantheon and what he's doing

1936
01:10:24.939 --> 01:10:27.340
- with liquid content and how he's looking at

1937
01:10:27.340 --> 01:10:28.079
- the audience.

1938
01:10:29.100 --> 01:10:31.020
- I don't know to the extent if he's

1939
01:10:31.020 --> 01:10:33.340
- doing exactly what you're saying, but he's looking

1940
01:10:33.340 --> 01:10:36.640
- at how do we create better audience experiences.

1941
01:10:36.939 --> 01:10:38.774
- So it's like, look. If I only have

1942
01:10:38.774 --> 01:10:41.015
- a thousand people listening as opposed to a

1943
01:10:41.015 --> 01:10:43.175
- million people listening, I'd rather have those thousand

1944
01:10:43.175 --> 01:10:45.255
- people that are more engaged that I'm able

1945
01:10:45.255 --> 01:10:46.234
- to as a host

1946
01:10:46.694 --> 01:10:48.795
- connect more with that audience,

1947
01:10:49.574 --> 01:10:50.074
- than

1948
01:10:50.614 --> 01:10:53.354
- the passive listening and trying to go, hey,

1949
01:10:53.730 --> 01:10:56.369
- write me, email me, DM me, whatever it

1950
01:10:56.369 --> 01:10:58.770
- may be. It's like, no, literally watch it

1951
01:10:58.770 --> 01:11:01.409
- in this experience and have, that one on

1952
01:11:01.409 --> 01:11:01.909
- one.

1953
01:11:03.329 --> 01:11:04.789
- The hard part about that is

1954
01:11:06.210 --> 01:11:07.190
- will the platforms

1955
01:11:08.925 --> 01:11:12.364
- will users change their behavior from the platform

1956
01:11:12.364 --> 01:11:14.204
- standpoint? And we go back to this Jay

1957
01:11:14.204 --> 01:11:15.984
- Shetty. We're trying to get

1958
01:11:16.925 --> 01:11:19.164
- a user who is watching Jay Shetty on

1959
01:11:19.164 --> 01:11:21.404
- YouTube going, like, hold on, now I've got

1960
01:11:21.404 --> 01:11:23.520
- to go and watch Netflix? Am I do

1961
01:11:23.520 --> 01:11:25.119
- I love Jay Shetty enough that I'm gonna

1962
01:11:25.119 --> 01:11:26.260
- go do that? Or

1963
01:11:26.800 --> 01:11:29.460
- You know? If they're not another Google subscriber.

1964
01:11:29.520 --> 01:11:32.880
- Yeah. They're not another subscriber. Right? Then, then

1965
01:11:32.880 --> 01:11:34.899
- that's where the opportunity is for Netflix.

1966
01:11:36.525 --> 01:11:37.505
- Yeah. That'll be interesting.

1967
01:11:38.445 --> 01:11:38.945
- Yeah.

1968
01:11:39.324 --> 01:11:42.945
- So but eventually that opportunity runs out.

1969
01:11:43.965 --> 01:11:46.385
- They will have captured all of Jay's audience

1970
01:11:47.085 --> 01:11:48.604
- at some point, whether it's a year from

1971
01:11:48.604 --> 01:11:50.364
- now or whatever, and they say, Jay, you

1972
01:11:50.364 --> 01:11:53.000
- know, that's it. But that's, but I mean,

1973
01:11:53.000 --> 01:11:56.039
- that's every contract. That's every contract. Yeah. It's

1974
01:11:56.039 --> 01:11:57.900
- probably a one year or two year term.

1975
01:11:58.680 --> 01:12:00.520
- I heard at one point that a lot

1976
01:12:00.520 --> 01:12:02.680
- of the shows that are in that Netflix

1977
01:12:02.680 --> 01:12:04.119
- deal, I don't know if this is accurate

1978
01:12:04.119 --> 01:12:05.400
- or not, are one year deals,

1979
01:12:06.845 --> 01:12:08.364
- which tells you everything you need to know.

1980
01:12:08.445 --> 01:12:10.364
- Sense. They're like, is this learning? Are we

1981
01:12:10.364 --> 01:12:12.685
- testing? Like, it's everything's test and learn right

1982
01:12:12.685 --> 01:12:14.445
- now. Yeah. Right. But I think Yeah. If

1983
01:12:14.445 --> 01:12:16.885
- you look at, sign up for

1984
01:12:17.324 --> 01:12:19.005
- what is it? I'll just put on my

1985
01:12:19.005 --> 01:12:19.985
- partnership hat.

1986
01:12:20.610 --> 01:12:23.189
- Amazon. Sign up for Amazon Prime and get,

1987
01:12:25.010 --> 01:12:27.890
- what was it, Paramount plus for free for

1988
01:12:27.890 --> 01:12:29.729
- three months. I mean, that is just the

1989
01:12:29.729 --> 01:12:32.050
- Paramount team and the the Amazon team going,

1990
01:12:32.050 --> 01:12:34.734
- like, look, we're gonna pay you or it's

1991
01:12:34.734 --> 01:12:37.215
- a rev share or x amount of people

1992
01:12:37.215 --> 01:12:38.975
- will end up signing up. And if x

1993
01:12:38.975 --> 01:12:40.895
- amount of people sign up, we need to

1994
01:12:40.895 --> 01:12:42.654
- look at the lifetime values. If I give

1995
01:12:42.654 --> 01:12:44.975
- you three months after that, will they stake

1996
01:12:44.975 --> 01:12:46.814
- around for a year? If so, then this

1997
01:12:46.814 --> 01:12:48.354
- was a worthy partnership.

1998
01:12:48.840 --> 01:12:51.320
- If not, then, hey, we did the marketing,

1999
01:12:51.320 --> 01:12:53.560
- we made the big hoopla, but it didn't

2000
01:12:53.560 --> 01:12:56.199
- work. But, like, that's just partnership 101 is

2001
01:12:56.199 --> 01:12:58.520
- just testing, learning, and and figuring out how

2002
01:12:58.520 --> 01:13:00.380
- do we how do we grow this?

2003
01:13:00.855 --> 01:13:02.775
- Yeah. I mean, if we're talking about Netflix,

2004
01:13:02.775 --> 01:13:04.775
- I mean, it is a departure on their

2005
01:13:04.775 --> 01:13:06.855
- their brand relationship that they have with their

2006
01:13:06.855 --> 01:13:07.675
- user base.

2007
01:13:08.534 --> 01:13:10.295
- I don't think most people that, you know,

2008
01:13:10.295 --> 01:13:12.315
- for years that have subscribed to Netflix

2009
01:13:12.949 --> 01:13:15.929
- think that that's a platform for video podcasts.

2010
01:13:15.989 --> 01:13:17.750
- I'm not sure that that was part of

2011
01:13:17.750 --> 01:13:18.889
- their brand association

2012
01:13:19.510 --> 01:13:22.149
- that has been so linked up with, movies,

2013
01:13:22.149 --> 01:13:23.050
- TV shows

2014
01:13:23.510 --> 01:13:24.649
- and comedy.

2015
01:13:25.109 --> 01:13:25.609
- Comedy,

2016
01:13:26.389 --> 01:13:27.770
- if you get into the genres.

2017
01:13:28.149 --> 01:13:28.604
- Yeah.

2018
01:13:29.005 --> 01:13:30.784
- So, you know, that's

2019
01:13:32.204 --> 01:13:34.045
- that's them trying to break out of the

2020
01:13:34.045 --> 01:13:34.545
- box

2021
01:13:35.164 --> 01:13:37.164
- of what they're trying to do. But in

2022
01:13:37.164 --> 01:13:38.364
- a lot of ways, it's kind of an

2023
01:13:38.364 --> 01:13:40.305
- old media model too. It's like,

2024
01:13:40.699 --> 01:13:42.699
- I'm, I'm going to be the curator of

2025
01:13:42.699 --> 01:13:45.760
- what people like. Right. And it's this gamble

2026
01:13:46.460 --> 01:13:48.140
- on their part. I think if they really

2027
01:13:48.140 --> 01:13:49.899
- want to compete with podcasting, they open it

2028
01:13:49.899 --> 01:13:50.399
- up

2029
01:13:50.860 --> 01:13:51.360
- to

2030
01:13:51.979 --> 01:13:54.460
- all the video podcasts and have it over

2031
01:13:54.460 --> 01:13:54.960
- there.

2032
01:13:56.085 --> 01:13:56.585
- But

2033
01:13:57.204 --> 01:13:58.885
- that's just me and how I look at

2034
01:13:58.885 --> 01:14:00.965
- the market, which is a different I couldn't

2035
01:14:00.965 --> 01:14:04.005
- see a Netflix doing that. I know. A

2036
01:14:04.005 --> 01:14:05.945
- a managing that is gonna be tough.

2037
01:14:06.324 --> 01:14:09.065
- B, the economics of that are tough, but

2038
01:14:09.204 --> 01:14:10.744
- the curation of that content

2039
01:14:11.079 --> 01:14:13.079
- is going to be, is it difficult? But

2040
01:14:13.079 --> 01:14:15.399
- if you look at, Yeah. But that's, that's

2041
01:14:15.399 --> 01:14:17.960
- the old media model, right? It's, it's the

2042
01:14:17.960 --> 01:14:18.460
- gatekeeper,

2043
01:14:18.920 --> 01:14:21.340
- right? That's telling people what

2044
01:14:22.359 --> 01:14:25.399
- Netflix thinks that people want. Right. Which also

2045
01:14:25.399 --> 01:14:25.640
- is,

2046
01:14:26.645 --> 01:14:28.645
- is part of the algorithm play, which is

2047
01:14:28.645 --> 01:14:30.645
- kind of like what YouTube is even doing.

2048
01:14:30.645 --> 01:14:31.305
- Right? It's

2049
01:14:31.765 --> 01:14:34.085
- it's picking the winners and losers based on

2050
01:14:34.085 --> 01:14:35.685
- how much Spotify has been doing that with

2051
01:14:35.685 --> 01:14:38.404
- their algorithm for years. It's like Right. Now

2052
01:14:38.404 --> 01:14:41.385
- getting back to that earlier curation era again.

2053
01:14:41.479 --> 01:14:44.439
- So right. I mean, the the the difference

2054
01:14:44.439 --> 01:14:46.199
- is is if you look at radio and

2055
01:14:46.199 --> 01:14:48.119
- TV, you had a program director who would

2056
01:14:48.119 --> 01:14:50.359
- be like, yes. I bind this show. This

2057
01:14:50.359 --> 01:14:52.600
- is good. Or this is a good track,

2058
01:14:52.600 --> 01:14:53.340
- you know.

2059
01:14:54.255 --> 01:14:55.935
- I live in LA, so an artist that's

2060
01:14:55.935 --> 01:14:58.335
- trying to get their song onto K Rock

2061
01:14:58.335 --> 01:15:00.734
- here, it's like, well, couldn't get K Rock,

2062
01:15:00.734 --> 01:15:02.015
- so they end up with, like, a,

2063
01:15:02.975 --> 01:15:05.395
- the local station who then gets the,

2064
01:15:06.015 --> 01:15:07.774
- the local Yeah. Picks them up, and and

2065
01:15:07.774 --> 01:15:09.215
- that's how you go where they do their

2066
01:15:09.215 --> 01:15:09.715
- local,

2067
01:15:10.149 --> 01:15:10.890
- acts. I

2068
01:15:11.270 --> 01:15:12.630
- mean, at the end of the day, they're

2069
01:15:12.630 --> 01:15:13.609
- still all hustling.

2070
01:15:13.989 --> 01:15:15.670
- No matter what, they're all still trying to

2071
01:15:15.670 --> 01:15:17.909
- hustle, go like, who's controlling this? The difference

2072
01:15:17.909 --> 01:15:20.470
- is now it's an algorithm that's controlling that.

2073
01:15:20.470 --> 01:15:21.989
- Right. And so, you're trying to play the

2074
01:15:21.989 --> 01:15:24.494
- algorithmic game of, okay, How do I convince

2075
01:15:24.494 --> 01:15:27.054
- the computer to, give me a chance versus

2076
01:15:27.054 --> 01:15:28.895
- a human? The human, you can get them

2077
01:15:28.895 --> 01:15:30.255
- to give you a chance. Like, hey. I

2078
01:15:30.255 --> 01:15:32.414
- like this person. Take them out. Yeah. Wine

2079
01:15:32.414 --> 01:15:33.774
- and dine them. You can't do that at

2080
01:15:33.774 --> 01:15:35.715
- the computer. There goes the human element.

2081
01:15:36.335 --> 01:15:37.475
- Yeah. Here's a 20.

2082
01:15:37.935 --> 01:15:39.260
- You know? Feature

2083
01:15:39.720 --> 01:15:42.680
- me. You know, it's, it's like, I'd love

2084
01:15:42.680 --> 01:15:44.840
- the new media show to be available on

2085
01:15:44.840 --> 01:15:47.159
- Netflix. Right. And it's really as simple as

2086
01:15:47.159 --> 01:15:49.720
- this adding, it's just metadata. Right. And a

2087
01:15:49.720 --> 01:15:51.800
- person can go into their search query and

2088
01:15:51.800 --> 01:15:52.619
- search for,

2089
01:15:53.000 --> 01:15:54.904
- you know, shows about

2090
01:15:55.684 --> 01:15:58.184
- distribution media or something like that. Right. And,

2091
01:15:58.564 --> 01:15:59.224
- you know,

2092
01:16:00.005 --> 01:16:02.564
- it's just a different mindset. Right. And it's,

2093
01:16:02.564 --> 01:16:04.344
- it's a mindset that built

2094
01:16:04.885 --> 01:16:06.664
- the scale of YouTube.

2095
01:16:07.045 --> 01:16:07.545
- Right.

2096
01:16:08.090 --> 01:16:09.850
- So I would hate for us to fall

2097
01:16:09.850 --> 01:16:12.670
- back into an earlier era of how,

2098
01:16:13.770 --> 01:16:14.270
- gatekeepers

2099
01:16:14.649 --> 01:16:17.470
- gatekeep content based on their preferences

2100
01:16:17.850 --> 01:16:19.550
- versus the user's preferences.

2101
01:16:20.465 --> 01:16:23.265
- So it's it's, you know, that's the tension

2102
01:16:23.265 --> 01:16:25.045
- that I see in the market right now.

2103
01:16:25.265 --> 01:16:26.704
- I think, I look at,

2104
01:16:28.625 --> 01:16:29.125
- Asia's,

2105
01:16:30.545 --> 01:16:33.045
- Asia corpus win with Stopros.

2106
01:16:33.649 --> 01:16:35.969
- Her background's in entertainment. So she's literally looking

2107
01:16:35.969 --> 01:16:37.969
- at this as, how do I turn this

2108
01:16:37.969 --> 01:16:41.729
- into an entertainment distribution? Or Jeffrey Haslett with

2109
01:16:41.729 --> 01:16:44.469
- the c suite, and his background's in entertainment.

2110
01:16:44.529 --> 01:16:47.064
- And so they're looking at this as fast

2111
01:16:47.064 --> 01:16:49.324
- channels. They're looking at this as distribution

2112
01:16:49.784 --> 01:16:53.085
- on TV. So they're creating this network effect

2113
01:16:53.784 --> 01:16:55.804
- of media across not just

2114
01:16:56.184 --> 01:16:56.684
- podcast,

2115
01:16:57.064 --> 01:16:59.829
- YouTube, but as they both told me, the

2116
01:16:59.829 --> 01:17:02.470
- technology, it's not so easy to create a

2117
01:17:02.470 --> 01:17:04.310
- fast channel. We all think, like, alright, this

2118
01:17:04.310 --> 01:17:06.789
- is easy to to aggregate shows and create

2119
01:17:06.789 --> 01:17:07.610
- a fast channel.

2120
01:17:08.310 --> 01:17:09.449
- Before I joined,

2121
01:17:09.829 --> 01:17:10.710
- rss.com,

2122
01:17:10.710 --> 01:17:12.229
- I was working with a buddy who had

2123
01:17:12.229 --> 01:17:14.224
- that whole concept. He's like, I knew fast

2124
01:17:14.224 --> 01:17:17.585
- channels. Greg, go source me the podcast so

2125
01:17:17.585 --> 01:17:19.585
- I can create these fast channels. The technology

2126
01:17:19.585 --> 01:17:22.545
- around it, especially with with the advertising side

2127
01:17:22.545 --> 01:17:24.944
- is is not that easy. So there's still

2128
01:17:24.944 --> 01:17:25.604
- a gatekeeping

2129
01:17:26.145 --> 01:17:28.670
- component. There's still a buy in. So Jeff

2130
01:17:28.670 --> 01:17:30.909
- Reed's you pay $2,500

2131
01:17:30.909 --> 01:17:32.909
- to join his network. But by joining the

2132
01:17:32.909 --> 01:17:35.550
- network, you now are business shows talking to

2133
01:17:35.550 --> 01:17:38.289
- C suite. He's created a whole fast channel.

2134
01:17:38.350 --> 01:17:38.850
- But

2135
01:17:39.949 --> 01:17:42.984
- other networks, other podcast networks I'm talking to

2136
01:17:42.984 --> 01:17:45.224
- could all do that if they, a, knew

2137
01:17:45.224 --> 01:17:45.965
- that medium,

2138
01:17:47.224 --> 01:17:49.304
- were to hire someone to help them with

2139
01:17:49.304 --> 01:17:51.864
- that media. So, like, you can increase your

2140
01:17:51.864 --> 01:17:52.364
- distribution.

2141
01:17:53.190 --> 01:17:55.590
- But regardless of the increase of distribution, it

2142
01:17:55.590 --> 01:17:57.210
- still then comes back to the marketing.

2143
01:17:57.510 --> 01:17:59.510
- Once it's distributed, you still have to let

2144
01:17:59.510 --> 01:18:01.750
- people know, hey. So, Rob, if you were

2145
01:18:01.750 --> 01:18:03.750
- to tell people, listen to this show wherever

2146
01:18:03.750 --> 01:18:06.489
- you consume any content you wanna consume,

2147
01:18:06.935 --> 01:18:08.774
- Oh, I can go to Netflix and type

2148
01:18:08.774 --> 01:18:09.515
- this in?

2149
01:18:09.895 --> 01:18:12.215
- Yes. Technically, that would be the dream, but

2150
01:18:12.215 --> 01:18:13.835
- they still have to know.

2151
01:18:14.774 --> 01:18:16.614
- And and and it's like going to your

2152
01:18:16.614 --> 01:18:18.534
- Blockbuster back in the day. Like, alright. I

2153
01:18:18.534 --> 01:18:19.814
- have to look for this or I have

2154
01:18:19.814 --> 01:18:21.414
- to type this in or know what I'm

2155
01:18:21.414 --> 01:18:23.659
- looking for. They still have to remember your

2156
01:18:23.659 --> 01:18:25.579
- show or know about your show. So it's

2157
01:18:25.579 --> 01:18:27.739
- still marketing your show regardless of where it's

2158
01:18:27.739 --> 01:18:28.239
- consumed.

2159
01:18:28.779 --> 01:18:29.760
- Yeah. No.

2160
01:18:30.300 --> 01:18:33.179
- Definitely. It's still the the challenge and having,

2161
01:18:33.179 --> 01:18:35.420
- you know, let's say, just give an example.

2162
01:18:35.420 --> 01:18:36.239
- If we had,

2163
01:18:36.965 --> 01:18:38.184
- you know, 1,000,000

2164
01:18:38.244 --> 01:18:39.625
- video podcasts in

2165
01:18:40.404 --> 01:18:40.904
- Netflix

2166
01:18:41.604 --> 01:18:42.104
- today,

2167
01:18:42.885 --> 01:18:45.304
- then that's exactly what the challenge is. And

2168
01:18:45.444 --> 01:18:47.385
- how is Netflix going to gatekeep,

2169
01:18:47.764 --> 01:18:50.220
- you know, a million video podcasts? Or how,

2170
01:18:50.300 --> 01:18:52.460
- how are they even gonna feature and promote

2171
01:18:52.460 --> 01:18:55.020
- that too is another element of this? Owned

2172
01:18:55.020 --> 01:18:57.500
- and operated, where they make their money most

2173
01:18:57.500 --> 01:18:59.659
- money, what's the economics of it? I mean,

2174
01:18:59.659 --> 01:19:01.900
- everyone listening, you all know we've seen this

2175
01:19:01.900 --> 01:19:04.185
- song and dance. It's it's my own show.

2176
01:19:04.185 --> 01:19:06.104
- Of course, I'm gonna promote my own show

2177
01:19:06.104 --> 01:19:08.344
- because the economics are there as opposed to

2178
01:19:08.344 --> 01:19:10.904
- Rob's show, which maybe be a better show

2179
01:19:10.904 --> 01:19:12.364
- than my show, but

2180
01:19:12.664 --> 01:19:14.344
- I make more money on my show than

2181
01:19:14.344 --> 01:19:15.864
- I will on Rob. So sorry, Rob. I

2182
01:19:15.864 --> 01:19:16.984
- don't care if you have a better show.

2183
01:19:16.984 --> 01:19:18.869
- We're not gonna show you. And that's that's

2184
01:19:18.869 --> 01:19:20.969
- the gatekeeping no matter what. Right.

2185
01:19:21.429 --> 01:19:23.510
- Right. Yeah. No. That's that's very true. I

2186
01:19:23.510 --> 01:19:24.010
- built

2187
01:19:24.710 --> 01:19:27.029
- a a video podcast network on the Windows

2188
01:19:27.029 --> 01:19:29.050
- Media Center back when I worked at Microsoft.

2189
01:19:29.109 --> 01:19:30.789
- So I took all the video podcasts that

2190
01:19:30.789 --> 01:19:32.409
- I had in my Zoom podcast

2191
01:19:32.789 --> 01:19:33.289
- platform,

2192
01:19:33.685 --> 01:19:35.685
- which was about, I had about eleven, twelve

2193
01:19:35.685 --> 01:19:39.045
- thousand video podcasts. Wow. Out of the, out

2194
01:19:39.045 --> 01:19:41.145
- of the 25, 30,000

2195
01:19:42.645 --> 01:19:44.505
- RSS feeds that I had in the catalog.

2196
01:19:45.604 --> 01:19:48.869
- And in, we built a, an app for

2197
01:19:48.869 --> 01:19:51.130
- windows media center, which was the windows,

2198
01:19:52.150 --> 01:19:52.650
- experience

2199
01:19:53.030 --> 01:19:55.590
- on televisions back in that, back in that

2200
01:19:55.590 --> 01:19:56.329
- time era.

2201
01:19:56.869 --> 01:19:59.189
- And, and so people could go into that

2202
01:19:59.189 --> 01:20:01.449
- app and look for all the video podcasts,

2203
01:20:01.909 --> 01:20:03.210
- and play it on their televisions.

2204
01:20:03.895 --> 01:20:06.295
- So, you know, that's, that's what comes back

2205
01:20:06.295 --> 01:20:08.055
- in my mind about all this. Well, this

2206
01:20:08.055 --> 01:20:10.854
- is, we move into this. Yeah. Into this

2207
01:20:10.854 --> 01:20:12.074
- new era of

2208
01:20:12.614 --> 01:20:13.835
- HLS streaming.

2209
01:20:14.614 --> 01:20:16.774
- Because even back then we weren't doing HLS

2210
01:20:16.774 --> 01:20:19.109
- streaming. It was all a, you know, a

2211
01:20:19.109 --> 01:20:22.550
- download playback, even on windows media center, where

2212
01:20:22.550 --> 01:20:24.630
- all the other content was all, all the

2213
01:20:24.630 --> 01:20:26.710
- TV shows and movies were all playing off

2214
01:20:26.710 --> 01:20:29.689
- of HLS streaming, even back in 2010.

2215
01:20:31.189 --> 01:20:33.774
- So, you know, that's, what's really changed now

2216
01:20:33.774 --> 01:20:36.994
- is that the distribution capability of podcasts now,

2217
01:20:37.935 --> 01:20:38.994
- is really evolved

2218
01:20:39.694 --> 01:20:40.194
- into

2219
01:20:40.654 --> 01:20:41.554
- direct competition

2220
01:20:41.854 --> 01:20:43.234
- with these existing

2221
01:20:45.079 --> 01:20:47.720
- distribution platforms that we see today that are

2222
01:20:47.720 --> 01:20:48.220
- dominating.

2223
01:20:48.840 --> 01:20:50.539
- And so, you know,

2224
01:20:51.880 --> 01:20:54.520
- I think if podcasting embraces Podcasting two point

2225
01:20:54.520 --> 01:20:57.395
- zero and has the alternative enclosures and is

2226
01:20:57.395 --> 01:21:00.034
- able to make, the HLS streams available and

2227
01:21:00.034 --> 01:21:01.015
- alternative enclosures,

2228
01:21:01.475 --> 01:21:03.715
- then I think that this opens this wide

2229
01:21:03.715 --> 01:21:04.695
- open to

2230
01:21:05.074 --> 01:21:06.935
- being able to support all sorts of

2231
01:21:07.795 --> 01:21:10.055
- apps and all sorts of ecosystems

2232
01:21:10.750 --> 01:21:12.529
- that will be more private

2233
01:21:13.069 --> 01:21:14.449
- type of distribution

2234
01:21:15.710 --> 01:21:18.750
- options as well into individual apps and other

2235
01:21:18.750 --> 01:21:20.770
- types of consumption platforms

2236
01:21:21.389 --> 01:21:23.789
- where what we're doing today with HLS is

2237
01:21:23.789 --> 01:21:26.685
- very siloed to apple. Right. And, and I'm

2238
01:21:26.685 --> 01:21:27.805
- not sure that that,

2239
01:21:28.244 --> 01:21:29.704
- is the right choice for,

2240
01:21:30.005 --> 01:21:32.565
- you know, the podcast industry to silo it

2241
01:21:32.565 --> 01:21:33.225
- like that.

2242
01:21:33.765 --> 01:21:36.005
- I mean, I think, what is it? My

2243
01:21:36.005 --> 01:21:38.965
- podcast is on HLS. You can consume it

2244
01:21:38.965 --> 01:21:40.470
- on apple video right now,

2245
01:21:41.030 --> 01:21:42.489
- but I couldn't

2246
01:21:42.869 --> 01:21:44.949
- I have a I have a Tesla, so

2247
01:21:44.949 --> 01:21:47.530
- I can't actually consume my own podcast

2248
01:21:48.390 --> 01:21:50.390
- on my car if I wanted to listen

2249
01:21:50.390 --> 01:21:51.850
- to it because right now,

2250
01:21:52.470 --> 01:21:55.515
- for whatever reason, the Apple Podcast experience in

2251
01:21:55.675 --> 01:21:58.155
- Tesla does not allow video, or I couldn't

2252
01:21:58.155 --> 01:21:59.994
- watch it on my Apple TV if I

2253
01:21:59.994 --> 01:22:01.994
- wanted to. So, like, it's funny to know,

2254
01:22:01.994 --> 01:22:04.735
- like, even my own podcast, I can't consume

2255
01:22:05.195 --> 01:22:07.595
- within the Apple ecosystem where I would normally

2256
01:22:07.595 --> 01:22:08.494
- consume podcast.

2257
01:22:09.369 --> 01:22:12.090
- But it does consume a separate RSS feed

2258
01:22:12.090 --> 01:22:13.310
- with the audio in it.

2259
01:22:13.930 --> 01:22:16.489
- So I've got a Tesla Tesla model three.

2260
01:22:16.489 --> 01:22:17.689
- Unless they changed it?

2261
01:22:18.890 --> 01:22:20.649
- I don't know what is it? Well, if

2262
01:22:20.649 --> 01:22:22.569
- you have a separate RSS feed with just

2263
01:22:22.569 --> 01:22:24.664
- the audio Oh, gotcha. In a separate

2264
01:22:25.045 --> 01:22:26.905
- RSS feed with the video,

2265
01:22:27.845 --> 01:22:30.085
- you can still access the show, but yeah,

2266
01:22:30.085 --> 01:22:31.064
- in your Tesla,

2267
01:22:31.444 --> 01:22:34.244
- the video experience is completely kind of wiped

2268
01:22:34.244 --> 01:22:35.845
- out. Right. But I can't even listen to

2269
01:22:35.845 --> 01:22:38.300
- it. Yeah, that's right. You can find,

2270
01:22:38.920 --> 01:22:41.319
- I can find, I can click to actually

2271
01:22:41.319 --> 01:22:43.639
- exactly it won't play it. Right. Yeah. Because

2272
01:22:43.639 --> 01:22:45.239
- they don't want people playing video on the

2273
01:22:45.239 --> 01:22:46.060
- car yet

2274
01:22:46.520 --> 01:22:47.659
- that day's coming.

2275
01:22:49.954 --> 01:22:50.454
- So,

2276
01:22:51.155 --> 01:22:52.675
- hardware four car, or do you have a

2277
01:22:52.675 --> 01:22:53.814
- hardware three car?

2278
01:22:54.755 --> 01:22:56.435
- Or do you know? I don't even know

2279
01:22:56.435 --> 01:22:57.335
- what that means.

2280
01:22:59.234 --> 01:23:00.534
- What's the model year?

2281
01:23:01.029 --> 01:23:01.850
- '24

2282
01:23:02.229 --> 01:23:03.130
- model three.

2283
01:23:04.229 --> 01:23:05.130
- '24.

2284
01:23:05.590 --> 01:23:07.109
- Okay. Well, you could have,

2285
01:23:07.750 --> 01:23:09.750
- the hardware four, which means that you're gonna

2286
01:23:09.750 --> 01:23:10.649
- get unsupervised

2287
01:23:11.109 --> 01:23:12.710
- full self driving in that car at some

2288
01:23:12.710 --> 01:23:14.170
- point, which means

2289
01:23:15.125 --> 01:23:17.145
- which means you won't have to pay attention

2290
01:23:17.284 --> 01:23:20.244
- to driving. You could watch your video podcasts

2291
01:23:20.244 --> 01:23:22.404
- in the car and probably turn that on.

2292
01:23:22.404 --> 01:23:24.564
- I've, I've, I've done that. It's fun when

2293
01:23:24.564 --> 01:23:26.425
- I get it, but now, yeah.

2294
01:23:26.725 --> 01:23:27.545
- Right. So,

2295
01:23:28.970 --> 01:23:30.250
- well, Greg, it was great to have you

2296
01:23:30.250 --> 01:23:30.989
- on the,

2297
01:23:32.090 --> 01:23:33.369
- new media show. I don't think you'd been

2298
01:23:33.369 --> 01:23:35.850
- on before. So, no, Rob, it's a pleasure.

2299
01:23:35.850 --> 01:23:37.130
- I got it now. I mean, since you're

2300
01:23:37.130 --> 01:23:39.210
- part of two networks, I gotta bring you

2301
01:23:39.210 --> 01:23:41.130
- on my show and, and we could talk

2302
01:23:41.130 --> 01:23:42.984
- about the, the networks that you've run and

2303
01:23:42.984 --> 01:23:44.904
- operated and and work in. But, yeah, it's

2304
01:23:44.904 --> 01:23:47.145
- it's interesting to see where this is all

2305
01:23:47.145 --> 01:23:48.984
- going, where New Media is going, but from

2306
01:23:48.984 --> 01:23:51.564
- the perspective not only of arsys.com

2307
01:23:51.944 --> 01:23:54.104
- and what we've got, but then my show,

2308
01:23:54.104 --> 01:23:57.469
- Podcast Network Insights. It's just it's, it's fun,

2309
01:23:57.689 --> 01:23:59.769
- and I'm enjoying where the industry has taken

2310
01:23:59.769 --> 01:24:00.269
- us.

2311
01:24:00.889 --> 01:24:03.949
- Yeah. Well, it's it's gonna be rapidly changing.

2312
01:24:04.250 --> 01:24:07.689
- And and I'm I'm happy to see rss.com

2313
01:24:07.689 --> 01:24:08.505
- really kind of

2314
01:24:08.984 --> 01:24:11.484
- being one at the forefront of this,

2315
01:24:12.185 --> 01:24:14.904
- and building this out and things like that,

2316
01:24:14.904 --> 01:24:16.764
- and really trying to support it

2317
01:24:17.465 --> 01:24:20.264
- and actively participating in podcasting two point zero

2318
01:24:20.264 --> 01:24:23.564
- initiative and trying to lead even on the,

2319
01:24:23.920 --> 01:24:25.699
- on the AI labeling questions. Yeah.

2320
01:24:26.479 --> 01:24:28.239
- Alberto did an amazing job on that, but

2321
01:24:28.239 --> 01:24:29.840
- we didn't even talk about that, but yeah,

2322
01:24:29.840 --> 01:24:31.599
- it's, it's literally, how do we create a

2323
01:24:31.599 --> 01:24:32.819
- standard for labeling?

2324
01:24:33.439 --> 01:24:34.719
- Well, he's going to be on the show

2325
01:24:34.719 --> 01:24:36.019
- here soon. So

2326
01:24:38.235 --> 01:24:39.755
- So of course I have to get Alberto

2327
01:24:39.755 --> 01:24:41.675
- on the show to talk about labeling. There

2328
01:24:41.675 --> 01:24:43.755
- you go. So alright, Greg. Well, thank you

2329
01:24:43.755 --> 01:24:45.755
- so much. And I appreciate everybody that's watching

2330
01:24:45.755 --> 01:24:46.395
- this live,

2331
01:24:46.715 --> 01:24:48.635
- today. I appreciate it. And you you can

2332
01:24:48.635 --> 01:24:49.454
- get this show

2333
01:24:49.760 --> 01:24:52.239
- as an audio and video podcast. I'm still

2334
01:24:52.239 --> 01:24:55.119
- not supporting HLS yet, but that day is

2335
01:24:55.119 --> 01:24:55.439
- coming,

2336
01:24:56.640 --> 01:24:57.140
- hopefully,

2337
01:24:57.760 --> 01:24:58.900
- one way or another.

2338
01:24:59.360 --> 01:24:59.840
- So,

2339
01:25:00.400 --> 01:25:02.739
- so anyway, well, thank you so much and

2340
01:25:03.280 --> 01:25:04.900
- have a great rest of your week.

2341
01:25:05.577 --> 01:25:07.677
- It's a short week this week. So Greg,

2342
01:25:08.136 --> 01:25:09.896
- thanks. Have a good one. All right. Thank

2343
01:25:09.896 --> 01:25:11.277
- you everybody. Bye.