Rebooting the Show: Video, AI and Revenue #643

0:08 Welcome to the reboot of the new media show, and it's great to have you here with me. And today on the relaunch of the show, but we're going to, be in a little bit of a different format, than what the conventional approach has been. I've got, Rob Walsh, the VP of Libsyn with me. And so he's, gonna gonna join me on this journey as we kind of move to the next stage of the the new media show. And so, Rob, welcome back. I guess the the last time I did this new media show, you were on it as well. Thanks, Rob, for having me on. Appreciate it. It's been a couple of months since Todd left us, and and it's been a a process to rebuild this show and to have it, kind of ready for a relaunch. I mean, at the time, I didn't really know if I was going to bring the show back or not. It didn't I didn't know if it was gonna be even even possible. So it's really a a miracle to some degree that that we're back doing it here. I'm glad I'm glad you're relaunching. Yeah. Well, it's great that it's coming back. And and so what I'm hoping to do with the show here is talk about some some topics that that are top of mind right now, you know, like the podcast hall theme and and kind of what what's going on with the whole video side, AI side, and what that, how that's impacting the podcasting space. So, Rob, what's your thought

1:39 on the whole hall of fame? Is there any comments that that they have? It's coming back. I'm gonna be having 12 new inductees They're hopefully gonna be announced here in the next, day or so, but it's it's really exciting to to see that come back as well. So any thoughts? Yeah. I mean, first, I'm I'm excited that coming back, I'm always happy to see the new inductees. Yeah. You know, good class from the ones I've seen so far. One I'm good friends with. So very happy for him. I don't know. We'll we'll talk about names here in a little bit. But, yeah, I I it it's nice to see it moving forward. It is nice to see it being back to a yearly cadence and and really happy that podcast is, you know, stepping up and Yeah. Making it part of of that show. Yeah. I think it's my personal thought is it's, it's something that's really important to the medium to recognize those folks that had a had a foundational billing for for this medium that we all love. And and so it's great to, always always do this event. It's always a lot of work.

2:45 There's always a lot of, trying to coordinate people flying in or if they're gonna be there, if they're gonna do doing doing a video. But it's I would say at the end, it's always worth it. So and that's that's why we do it. So well, let's kinda move on here and talk a little bit about some of the other topics that that we're gonna talk about on the show today. And that's kinda some what can be oftentimes controversial numbers around ad spend and the business side of podcasting is one of the things that, you know, and Rob, you know, chime in on this too is is that it it feels like podcasting has kinda grown up of sorts, and it's it's now being seen increasingly as the media now. Right? So we've spent most of our lives, both of us, seeing mainstream media really kinda kinda dominate the media landscape. And podcasting has always been this kinda like this rebel upstart, but but now we've kind of taken over that leading mantle of sorts in the podcasting space. And so what's your thought on that? Is that the same thing that you're seeing, or is it just something I'm seeing?

3:56 Obviously, something that I'm seeing too. And, you know, we had an election a year ago that was dominated by podcast appearances and lack thereof. I mean, definitely helped, determine a present. And then on top of that, you have one podcaster who's bigger than all, you know, CNN, Fox News, NewsNation, MSNBC combined his audience's longer. So what is mainstream media when you've got Joe Rogan, who's larger than Anderson Cooper? That's right. Well, and it's probably not even close, actually. And there's a handful of other creators, and I've got a list that I'm gonna share a little bit later in the show that will kind of run down what those top 10 shows are right now at Spotify and even Apple and YouTube. So, you know, and it's not, what I think all of us would necessarily like to see, but it's the, it's the reality that we see right now, at least in the numbers that are being shared publicly.

5:00 And which is always a question mark too, is that each of those platforms kind of has, reasons for doing things. I'll just put it kindly that way. So, so anyway, I don't know, Rob, what's what's the big things that you're seeing on the growth side that's really Advertising side is it's it's more and more advertisers are coming in. Yeah. And we're getting I think we're starting to see advertisers change even on pre produced ads on how they're targeting. Initially, it was a lot of targeting based on the demographics of who the listeners are, but now you're starting to see them go, wait a second.

5:42 Why am I targeting on demographics when I actually care about psychographics? And then they're saying, hey, why don't I, you know, why don't I just put it all across all these true crime or why don't I put it across all these sports podcasts? Doesn't matter what their demographics are. If they're interested in this topic, they're interested in my product. And then we're starting to see that shift come back now. You know, still host red is still dominant, but programmatic, I thought, a bit was so more reliant on they would they were so interested on the demos. They forgot about well, does it really matter if that person is a male or female if they're not gonna buy your product? So I've seen this year, especially, more of those would call run of network type buys where they'll buy across a whole genre of podcast because they know those people that listen to it, regardless of gender, regardless of age, are likely to buy their product because of the topic they're listening to. Yeah.

6:42 It does, seem like that the advertising side, is really moving a little bit closer to what we've accepted, I guess, or or seen in the broadcast media side. Right? For many years. That's the irony as I look back to the past is is what we went through this phase with podcasting, and I think it still exists today where where host reads do do very well. It's been able to Right. And advertisers are really increasingly starting to think about, well, what's the ROI on these things? Right? And that's what's causing a little bit of an adjustment in the medium around expectations because, you know, they would like to only work with shows that drive the highest ROI, right, on their campaigns.

7:30 That tends to narrow the the amount of shows that are being being purchased. And And are you doing that as well? Yeah. I mean, some buyers will like, hey. I only want shows a 100,000, a 150,000, or 200,000 per app. Right? Because they don't wanna deal with shows that are smaller. But others are realizing that, hey, there's really actually better ROI oftentimes between shows that are between $1,015,000 and a 100,000. Those those audiences tend to be much more loyal to to the hosts than some of the ones that are, you know, bigger shows. I'm not gonna name names, but bigger shows that are up there that never listen to this a voice mail message, never, reply to the audience, never interact with the audience. But the shows that are 25, 50 k, they tend to still be interacting with their audience and pull them a better rapport with that audience. Yeah. And it does seem like more and more shows are taking their, their platform or their content to private communities increasingly too.

8:32 It's usually around bonus content, but Substack. I've seen a lot of shows going around sub stack. Yeah. That's a that's a great example, but there's other ones too, like, you screen, dot TV is another one that we're seeing people post all their videos over there. So you could conceivably have an audio show that's only available publicly and then do all your video over in these these more private communities, right, that you can build a paid relationship with with a particular show. But Rob, before we dive too much further into this, because we have a lot of data that we wanna share on the show today too, that I'm gonna pull up on the screen around the ad spend market, in The US and globally. But I did wanna share that the the New Media Show has a new website. So if you are seeing this live so let me bring it up on the screen here. So if you wanted to go to newmediashow.com, you can actually get all of the older older episodes of which there's probably close to 600 up in here right now. And if you missed the the episode that Rob and I both did to to remember Todd Cochran, that's all up here too, and there's audio and and video players that are on that post as well. Those are now in the RSS feeds, the older RSS feeds that didn't get updated originally with that episode. So so we've been able to restore the whole show and get all of the archives in here

10:03 too. So all of the the new episodes will be published in here just like this. And so this will be a good kind of landing, location for for the show going forward. And so so but it's still gonna be available and streamed live out to all of the social platforms. I am tapping into Todd's old, old link through Restream. Hopefully, it's working. I'm not really sure if it is, but I'll find out after the show, to try and capture as many, potential listening points for this show as well. But I'm sure some of them aren't gonna work, but, I'm hoping that some of them will, and it'll capture people that have probably not seen the show in a long time. I wonder what happened to it. Right. So and then, so I just wanted to show that there's ways that you you can actually go back in here. And I mean, well, first of all, you can go on and and subscribe to Apple Podcasts or Spotify and get access to to the content there and get it on your phone. And then also there's a complete list by by, month and year of all the past past episodes. If you wanted to go into a deep dive of seeing what one of the early episodes of this series is, you can see how long that list is. It's about, like I said, close to 600 episodes. So if you have lots of extra time in your life, which probably most people don't.

11:32 So this is a little bit more personal, Rob. It's it it it, like, shows us parallel with with each other. I know the the past show, had us in various sizes and things like that, but I just love the that this parallel look. Now granted, I can flip back and forth to to me and then you and in that that concept, which is terrific. But, And for those that are watching after and don't realize, we're using StreamYard. So Yeah. Right. And need what service. So what we're doing here is hopefully will work well on the audio side and and the video side is my goal always. So anything we bring up on the screen, you know, we're gonna talk about. So it isn't so much, that it's only being created for the video of consumers of this because that's the other thing that I've learned over the last, couple of years is that is that increasingly people are looking for an audio version and potentially as an option, a video word. So there are people out there that like to watch video, which are typically a smaller subset.

12:39 I think the the numbers that Todd shared with me in the past, because we've been doing this as a live show for thirteen years, is that it's like 10 to 20% of the audience watches the video side. That's not what we did. Score a lot of show. Oh, it is. Right. Some shows, the ratio is 20 to one. I mean, while the podcast that we see is 20 to one ratio of audio to video. Yeah. And that's why I care about them, the actual production of this and and how it's how it's presented. Is it visually, you know, enticing? I was a little bit, a little disappointed because I was trying to shoot for four k here with with what I'm trying to do, but the technology platforms are still not quite there yet to four k. Now, granted, YouTube is playing in that four k market pretty deeply, but most of the content that gets published, or I just say all of it, that's four k gets published as a direct upload.

13:35 There isn't any four k. Yeah. Yeah. Any live streams that are going into YouTube that are four k today, they default it, and and so does so does StreamYard as far as I know. So, so anyway, just a little bit of background background story. But, let's is there any thoughts, Rob, on Todd's passing that you've had subsequent to to, the your remembrance episode that that we might wanna talk about? No. I mean, since, you know, I saw you at the funeral and and and it was great turnout and it was great seeing folks there. I'm a horrible reason to see them, but it it was really nice to see that turnout for Todd.

14:24 Yeah. Yeah. It just it's still very sad. I think and I always said it was it's gonna hit me more, like, when I get to podcast, when I'm there and you see the bluebird Right. Blankens. You won't see Todd. And I think that's I think that's gonna be more of the reality of the situation, when it gets home with a lot of people for that point. You know, they're used to seeing them there. Those of that. Yeah. So, speaking of Podfest, there's a bunch of stuff that's gonna be going on down there. I'm a big, big fan of Podfest and what they're trying to accomplish down there. That that that's it. Podfest, expo.com if you wanted to go, check it out if you haven't heard of it before, which I'm always surprised that there are people in the community that are not aware of that conference. Mhmm.

15:10 And so I I always try and share it as much as I can. But the the podcast hall of fame, the twenty twenty six podcast hall of fame is gonna be there. Plus this new media show is going to be on stage again, Rob. So we're gonna do it, live in front of an audience down there. And then I'm also gonna do a hall of fame hall of fame panel down there too. So I'm gonna be involved in two sessions down there, one for the hall of fame and one for the media show. So I'm gonna be building out panels down there for that, and that's coming together right now. But the big thing that's coming down the path right now is, getting finalized the selection.

15:53 What it's looking like is gonna be 12 people that are gonna be inducted into the podcast hall of fame. It could be 11. So there's always a couple of stragglers that are still trying to decide if they're gonna be there in person or if they're even going to accept the award. And that may not be commonly known out there, but, as Rob, as you know, that there are people that have decided to not accept the hall of fame induction, which may come as a surprise to some people. But, I mean, I would think that everybody would want to be be inducted, but there's there's a bunch of reasons that I hear sometimes, of why that doesn't happen.

16:38 But it's there can be all sorts of issues that can come up, but it it it it's also can be a personal choice type of situation too. We don't force people to get inducted into the whole thing. So, so it's a much more kind of cooperative thing because that's the environment that I want to create with the whole thing is that people that, you know, get inducted want to be there. And because it it really aligns with the values of the whole whole of fame and the purpose of it. And what we're trying to accomplish with it is we want people that are inducted into it that really, have a a kind of a persona of, of really giving back, right, to the podcasting space and building community and being being a good participant, in in the medium. And that's that that's why we do it that way. So I would say probably over half of the inductees are gonna be there in person. Mhmm. So that's that's always a terrific outcome.

17:36 The first reaction from some people is is that, you know, well, I can't make it, but as they kinda move down the path and they think about it a little bit more, they oftentimes come back and say, well, I'll be there. Absolutely. So so it's always a good good kind of move that, that happens over time. So I wanted to show next the the hall of fame, website. So if you wanted to go check it out, I think I just disconnected it. So let me go in and reconnect it again. And so all the information about the hall of fame is is on this page, and it's at, podcasthall.com.

18:20 If you wanted to go go check it out, it's got last year's full bulk of your phone. Is that because Todd registered podcasthalloffame.com? I believe he did when yeah. Right. I think he was He was always quick to, register if you had your domain names around town. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He tends to wanna do that. But I I believe he did a redirect on this too. So I think he redirected the traffic to this one. So if you did type in podcasthalloffame.com, I think it does get redirected to this. So and I think yeah.

19:01 There's actually three domain names, but but I tend to focus just on one. Podcast hall is short and sweet and it and it says it all to some degree, but having that podcast halloffame address is great too. But so what's on this page is a link to the ceremony. So if you wanted to come to Podfest and attend the ceremony in person, you can do do that. And there's in person tickets that are available, right here that you can click on. But but the event will be produced into a full video, so so you'll be able to watch it, I believe that's gonna come out on the eighteenth. So it'll be a couple days after the the in person's ceremony. Hopefully, we can get it out, in that time frame ready to go. And so so and then also what's there too is all of the past inductees.

20:01 And, hopefully, here in the next day or so, we will have our our new inductees listed in here. And so last year's inductees are listed in here and all the prior years too. So if you wanted to go and and check out what the past has been for the hall of fame, it's it's all right there. And if you wanted to go and watch some some past videos of past ceremonies from the past. You can see Dave Jackson there. You know, his induction back in 2018 and the full 2017 induction, which at the time was part, part of, podcast movement.

20:47 And that's when I got inducted was on the in 2017. What was different about the hall of fame back then is that it was combined with a podcast awards. So the hall of famers were sprinkled amongst, you know, podcast award winners. So which is different than the hall of fame today, which is just the hall of fame. So it's not it doesn't currently have, a awards, like a podcast awards kind of piece to it. So so anyway, and also I wanted to thank Podfest for for giving us a venue and and and really supporting the the event. And and the Bluberry platform has come through this year with a sponsorship of the Hall of Fame. And and hopefully we'll have, a a few more sponsors before the event happens.

21:43 And then, Pod News is kind of our our our media partner. So so, anyway, let's, hop out of that and come back, and we can continue our conversation, Rob. So so anyway, let's let's go ahead and kinda move on from that. And, well, let me tease a few of the inductees. Actually, I've got it in the show notes here, so we might as well share that this has not been publicly released yet, but the names that I'm I have here, have already agreed to be inducted in the hall of fame. There's a couple of names that are potentially missing here, that haven't, officially confirmed.

22:35 So I won't mention them. Okay. And the first one, and and I know, Rob, you're a big fan of, is Dan Carlin. Yes. Hardcore history. He's telling me there's a new episode coming out the end of this month. We'll see. We'll see if it makes It's funny. I think, well, we think we're gonna cut the episode down. It'll only be four hours long so we can Oh, is that all? Okay. Right. Right. Well, now he knows if he's a hall of famer, so maybe he'll mention that as part of his history. Oh, come on. So and then the next one is Paul Culligan, who's been around this medium. I met Paul We met him at at Gnome Decks, 2005 or '6. It was one of the two.

23:21 But, yes, we met him at Gnomedek. Yeah. At first met Paul back when I was working for Microsoft on the on the Zoom. So and then another one who comes out of the the video podcasting era, but has a strong connection with, like CNET radio and and other other kind of tech related, podcasting platforms is Veronica Belmont. And that may be a a new name to many people because she hasn't been really plugged into the podcast side of things or my community standpoint over the years, but I've known her for for many, many years now, and she had huge impact on the early years of hypnosis.

24:04 Yep. And and we're also gonna do a a memorial induction of Dan Miller, who, we're gonna be lucky to have Dave Ramsey is going to induct Dan Miller on on stage in Orlando. So, and I know, Rob, I I you know, Dave well. I'm sure. Yep. And and and Dan. You know, Dan was down where I live now. He was in this area, the Franklin Brentwood area, and and he had a mastermind group and Dave was part of that group. And there's a lot of people came out of Dan's mastermind group.

24:46 Definitely big influence. Yeah. I talked to, Dave Dave Ramsey today about about the induction, and he's he's he's willing to do anything. He was a very close friend, of of Dan's for, like, four years, I guess. So, he he's gotta be there, with an impassionate, presentation to to induct Dan. I have never seen a better public speaker than Dave Ramsey. Okay. Cool. He, He's great to talk on the phone with too. So Yeah. I mean, I've seen him speak a couple times live. Unbelievable speaker. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he's he's got a unbelievable network too that's been very successful. Right?

25:31 And the next one that probably won't be too much of a big surprise to to to many people is James Cridland. So so, you know, I know. But he has had a huge impact on the podcasting space, and he got lots and lots of votes, in the the process. And all these people that I mentioned here, have have gone through a voting process. So we've had, like, 50 plus, people that have voted to to select this from a group of probably close to 200, nominees. That list can grow, but that comes with some inherent challenges too. Mhmm. So, Lucas, I got some comments from some of the voters saying that the the list was too long to be able to It was. I I there was a quite a few names on there. I was like, who? I had to look up. Like, who is this? Because I'm the one that always know people's name.

26:32 I didn't. You did a lot better job than when I was earning it. I'll just say that. Much more organized. I for like, I'd email people going, here's the list to choose from. Send me back a few names. Well, that worked as well. But, but, yeah, I tried to include tried to follow through with a promise that I made up on stage last year is to include some international folks in the the list of potential, inductees, and I did that. So it's not a huge percentage of the list, but I'm trying to phase into it solely, to get, you know, some folks, recognized. And one of them is, who's outside of The US is Mark Esquith.

27:16 He's gonna be inducted this year. He's gonna be there in person, he told me today. So I'm excited for that. And another one that may be a surprise to many people that, don't go back to the early years of podcasting is Julie Samuels from the Electronic Frontier Foundation organization. And the whole Adam Corolla fighting the patent troll. Patent troll in the early years. She had a significant impact, and and a lot of people will realize this and hopefully she'll talk about it a lot at the hall of fame around that whole process, that the industry went through. And there was a lot of fear and there was a lot of concern. A lot of people were, is it time to bail on podcasting because of this patent holder that was trying to sue people? And they did sue a few big companies.

28:05 And, and but in the end, they were able to to kind of put down Yeah. It was beaten down with no chance of coming back. So it was EFF did a great job on that. I I worked with them when they were going through that AdRoll issue. We were we were part of that. We were hosting Adam Carle at the time. And then I I remember being on calls with Julie and and the EFS and, Apple. Yeah. I can't be any happier for the EFS. I joined an EFS member back then and still am. Lots of people did back then. Yeah. And lots of people stepped up and donated Mhmm. To the legal defense fund. I know I did too. I know a bunch of people did, to try and fight back against this troll that was trying to take down podcasting.

28:55 And it was really a patent that wasn't really grounded in what podcasting was anyway, so it was really kind of a silly, silly thing that they were trying to do. So the next one is Kerry Hoffman, who is a long time CEO of BRX, has been a been a big impact on the podcast medium for many years. So I'm excited to have her inducted as well. And Ariel Nissenblatt, is is our one. She's a more recent podcaster, but but, is more out of the modern era of podcasting, which I was excited to to see. And I I would say that she's probably one of, or if not the best candidate for this induction at this age for her.

29:39 So so I think it's terrific. And then the the last one I can announce here at this point is, Sarah VanMozel. You know, you and I both know about Sarah's impact, which has been wide ranging and massive. I don't know if you wanna share share a little bit about her. No. She's been key player in the space. I'm very happy for her, and and I was glad to see her name listed as one of the ones I got, in this group. So there are hopefully, Sarah will be one that shows up. Say hi. But, yeah, I don't know how many of these have said they're gonna show versus how many said they're gonna send in videos. Like I said, a little bit less than half are going to, but I'm not gonna say because they may change their mind, which I've already seen happen today. So I'm I'm happy to see that. So but it should be great. And if you can make it to podfest expo dot com, it starts on the January 15. I know it's coming up, pretty quickly, but it's a significant event from a creator perspective. And I think that's the thing to think about it.

30:38 As we've seen what what was happened with podcast movement and things like that, I think it's it's kind of a a good alternative, conference if you wanna wanna support a conference. I'm not against podcast movement, and those guys are doing terrific stuff over there as well. But to have an outlet for indie podcasters, that's really the events, right now. But I think over time, it's gonna become a little bit more professionalized too just because of the evolution of the industry. I get I hope everyone that was inducted has the ability, again, timing wise. Maybe not everybody can. But hopefully, from their schedule, it allows them to come down. And being inducted in person, you know, having not through it, it it's something they'll remember forever. And, I, you know, I feel sorry for those that that just sent in the video. I think they miss out on on part of the the feel of it then. And it's great to see the people that show up there and are there to support you, when you get inducted. So, and I hope I hope everyone's able to make it. I understand, you know, some people are have to travel halfway around the world literally, to make it.

31:44 Well, like, Mark Asquith is a good example of that. I was I was nervous about inducting people outside of The US because, just the travel aspect of it, right, to be there in person. But I I was happy to hear that, he's gonna do everything he can to be there. So Yeah. So global global, give him the give him the tickets, get him out there. Uh-huh. It's gonna fit out right. Well, I think that's gonna happen. So so that that'd be fantastic. So, yes, I wanted to say big thank you to, to Blueberry Podcasting and the Hall of Fame for, for being a supporter of the show and, and also, being just a terrific company that that supported, you know, podcast that supports this show, and I just appreciate it.

32:27 Let's, jump in and talk about YouTube and Spotify and what they're doing in podcasting. The there are some trend reports that are out there, top podcast lists. So I wanted to pull those up on the screen. And so we we can all kinda take a look at this and see what's actually going on here with this. And I'll get everyone a hint. There's, like, three top twenty twenty five lists when Apple, Spotify, YouTube. Guess who's at the top of every one of those three? Yeah. I know. It's actually not very surprising. So this is the the top list in The US from YouTube. This is based on watch time.

33:07 So it's not a subscription list or how many viewers. This is based on how much time people spend with a particular show that they classify as a podcast. And that's better. Right. Isn't that the best metric though when you really think about it? Yeah. It is. Yeah. I mean, okay. So you have a million people watch a five minute episode, but if you have 750,000 people watch a two hour episode, which one is more influential? I I would go with the one that's the two hour tour. Right. And and Joe Rogan comes out number one, right, as is the show that gets the most watch time. Probably helps that it's all of his episodes are at least two hours long, but I wrestle with that, though. I don't know that any and every show can pull that off, though. I don't know what you think, Ralph.

33:52 I mean, no. Not a book can pull that off. I mean, some of these folks do have, you know, Vaughn's episodes of Long John Ryan's are longer. Rotten Mangos, they're more produced, so but Kill Tony's are longer. Not as long. When I'm looking through this list, yeah. But all I would say almost all of these are longer form content, you know, greater than thirty minutes. I think any of these are shorter than don't know the length. I've never listened to the diary of a CEO. But I think Yeah. That's them are pretty long too. I mean, he I think, Steven Bartlett goes close to two hours sometimes. He's actually trying to overtake Joe Rogan. In The UK, he's number two. Right? I think in The UK, he was either he was number two right behind Rogan. This here, you have The US list. He's actually doing really well if you think about that. Number two behind Joe Rogan, and I don't really even know if Kill Tony is actually an audio podcast too. I don't know for sure. I believe they do have the audio version available.

34:48 Do they? Okay. They used to. Let's see. They still do. Oh, okay. That's a little bit clearer of a of a clean definition of what a what a podcast is. It just so happens that they have a video or Yes. They I mean, they do because they have a megaphone feed. So, that that that would have been an Apple podcast only as audio. So yes. Number three is Good Mythical Morning. It's the one just after that. I don't know if they have an RSS feed, but it would be interesting to see. I would think most of these do. They're good. Mythical Morning. Yes. So it was yeah. That one does not have an RSS feed. Oh, it does not. Okay. That's interesting. Okay. Well, not I'm not seeing it in Apple Podcast. So I technically would say that's not a podcast. It's probably listed in the podcast playlist, on They must have. Yeah. So it gets put in a list. Right? There are many people that I talk with that will tell you they're a podcaster and then are not an Apple Podcasts, only do video, and just happen to do and do shows that are more than thirty minutes on YouTube. People at this point now think if you do a weekly show, longer than thirty minutes and you're on YouTube, that's a podcast. I would disagree. I would say you you really need for that show to have, the audio version of it available and and be in a podcast and overcast and podcast and podcast and other places. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that that's a fair way to think about it.

36:07 I mean, if it's only video and it's only on YouTube, it's kind of a hard case to make that it's really a short podcast. I think that's the other thing that's going on in in the industry right now is this kind of like this confusion about, what a podcast is, and it's caused confusion amongst people as they as they look at the the medium. I would love to see every one of these shows in the top 10 at YouTube top podcasts have an RSS feed version of their show. I would think over time, they probably will. I think it kind of depends on the format of the show too. If they because there there are video first creators out there, but increasingly, even though you're a video first creator, doesn't mean that you can't have a audio podcast version. Right. And if you would and there are quite a few that have made that transition. They started video and now have a audio podcast starting to do well.

36:57 Bryce Crawford started just video and now also has the audio. Really, really popular podcast. He hugely popular between males between the ages of 14, 15, and and 25 that are in the faith community. And and so anybody that is in a youth church group is a male will know who Bryce Crawford is, and he started Just Video, now has also audio. Oh, got it. And then, number four is, Rotten Mango. I've never heard of that one as a audio podcast. Oh, yeah. She's yeah. She's got audio. Oh, she does? Okay. So if you look at this whole list, Medeus Touch podcast, forty eight hours, I don't know if forty eight hours has an audio version. What do you think? I'm looking that one up. Let's see. I thought they did. It might just be yeah. They do. They do have an audio version of the show. Okay. And then the the Sean Ryan show By the way, it is video first, but the audio And then the Sean Ryan show, which is has a audio version as well. Right. Mhmm. It started as audio.

37:55 Yeah. And then Smosh As an audio version. Yep. And Yep. The Yovan, obviously, definitely an audio version. And so does the diary of a CEO. So yeah. The real It looks like it's just been mythical morning is is the one that I would say, if you're gonna be technical, isn't truly Right. You're not in the podcast. Yeah. You know? Oh, yeah. That's my definition. If you're not in Apple Podcast Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you're not in Apple Podcasts, then you're not in all the other apps that pull from Apple's public directory. You're not in PocketCasts. You're not in PocketCasts and and all the others. So it's it's not just about being an Apple, it's about being an Apple's directory that all the other apps pull from. And you can be just video in there. Maybe that, you know, you don't wanna have an audio version of your show. You oh, it doesn't it doesn't not good to have an audio version of this. It doesn't work.

38:38 You're an artiste. Right? And it it has to be video only. We can still be an Apple podcast. And then the audio will play just in Overcast, but it'll still be an Overcast. That's what this show does is it has a a video RSS feed, that's available. That's something that Todd and I have been with this show for a very long time and continue today. So it is possible to play video in Apple Podcasts and a couple other platforms too, as far as apps, and things like that. It's not a very commonly known thing anymore, is it, Rob? But Again, it's still and I always say this. There's still more time in the day to consume audio than there is video. It's cheaper for people around the world to stream audio than there is video. You know, not everybody has cheap Internet access. Yeah, that's true. That's true because it takes up a lot of storage and and it's usually higher playback bit rate. But if you're if you're streaming that video, which oftentimes, you know, if you look at these these big platforms like the E2 or Spotify or whatever, they're playing it via HLS streams which can be like a variable bit rate playback. So so it can adjust to your bandwidth capabilities.

39:41 Up on the screen now, we have the Spotify list for the top podcast globally in 2025. This ranks Joe Rogan again number one. Big surprise, Oh, man. Yeah. And number two, the Diariam CEO, Steven Bartlett. So he's he's in both lists. Yep. And Oh, yeah. And Mel Robbins, is number three. And Caller Daddy, number four. Theo Vaughn. Back also on both lists. Right. Interesting that the Huberman Lab podcast, is, didn't show up in the YouTube list. I thought that that show was a a video first program. No. It started as audio. Oh, it started as audio, but I think he's really put in a lot of effort into the video side. Yeah. When he started with us, it was audio only in Oh, okay.

40:22 So Or I mean, he made a pad video. It was yeah. It was a big part of the show was audio early. Okay. So he is an example of a show that that started out, built a big audience on the audio side, and then just add video. Okay. And then, Crime Junkie, which is obviously a a big audio show. Yeah. It's only audio. Right. That would be a expensive production, I would imagine, on the video side. Kinda like with Dan Carlin as a good example. Can you imagine if he made a video version of his show, Ron? Yeah. He he couldn't do it the way he did. You know, some shows just will never most true crime podcasts won't do video. There's again, Rotten Mango is one that is, but most the way they record and they prep and they do it in sections and segments and they build through it, it it's hard it'd be hard for them to do video and have it be of value. Right?

41:12 You know, sometimes you can do video. Anybody could do video. Let me say this. Anybody can do video. What at what cost to the audio? Yeah. Well, also in what cost to the creator's, pocketbook? And is there a a a return on that? That's the that's the other thing that all these creators have to think about is they can spend a lot to produce video. And I'm seeing a lot of people do that on YouTube now. I'm seeing full movies and documentaries being put together by independent creators, that are, you know, at the level of, you know, what you would have seen on the Discovery Channel or someplace like that. So there are people that are investing in creating a video experience that, is on par with what you would expect from a, you know, like a history series or something like that that maybe you saw on the History Channel or something like that. I see people investing a lot of energy in creating content like that. I've been pretty impressed by it. Now, how many of those are audio versions is the other question. Right? They're probably not podcast.

42:07 And, you know, and and you look at Apple's top list on some of these too. Like, Huberman Labs made the top 10 in Apple's list for the year. Prime Junkie made the top 10. No audio. That I have Apple's here in my document here. But, and then the last couple here, Modern Wisdom, that is a strong video program as well. Obviously, I don't know, are they hosting it, Luxe and Drive? Or No. They're not. That is a show that I've watched many times that, has very good audio quality. So they're obviously thinking about their audio quality. And that's the other metric here too, is that if you're a Vimeo first creator, you tend to not think about audio first from an audio quality standpoint. And I'm seeing people kind of move away from the big boom microphones, which I would think maybe makes the audio less important. This was an issue, I think, for broadcast television too, where they everybody on broadcast television, uses hidden mics or lavaliers or something like that, or they use boom mics or that kind of stuff.

43:06 It does compromise on the auto quality a little bit. So sorry. I'm on the lavalier. No. It's okay. I'm your audio. So it sounds great. I've got lavaliers here too. I've got a shotgun mic here too. I tend to not use it very often, but and then the the number nine on the list is On Purpose with, Jay Shetty, which that certainly started out as a strong audio podcast. I believe he's doing video, but I don't know that I watch Jay Shetty. Well, no. I take that back. I think I have seen Jay on on YouTube before. And then, Tucker Carlson brings out the And he was definitely video first. Matter of fact, he was video first on Twitter, Eck, before the show made it over. But I mean, when he came in with his show, the Tucker Carlson Show, it initially launched before it was on Apple or Spotify or anywhere else.

43:52 It was original episodes were launched on Eck. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's true. I do remember that, and he got huge numbers doing this too. And, I also know that he has a popular audio version too. He's a very prolific ad seller into his audio podcast. Let's not just put it to you that way. He's well monetized on the audio side is what I would say. They they learn from Alex Jones. Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah. So let me scroll down the the list. I don't know if this one so I think the one up here was globally for Spotify. This one the next one on the list is Spotify top podcasts, in The US. It looks like Joe Rogan again, obviously, and then Theo Vonn, number two. So Theo Vonn is very, very strong in The US, but not so much outside of The US.

44:36 Well, it's interesting. Theo is number two here, and and he was on the YouTube list, but he isn't in Apple's top 10 list. Interesting. Mel Robbins is. Mel Robbins is third in the Apple list along with this. It does make you wonder, Rob, if it's, it's kind of an age group demographic issue for him because because I know a lot of younger people tend to listen to Spotify more than they listen to Apple Podcasts. So I don't know if that could make a difference here. And I think Theo now is definitely more video focused. Yeah. I think that that has a lot to do with it too. Yeah. And caller daddy's out on the list. Mel Robin, crime junkie. So it's, Sean Ryan that even though it looks like the Tucker Carlson show is a little more popular in The US, and then The Daily pops up there. I would have thought that The Daily would have been higher on the list than that, but that's interesting. And the Huberman Labs show and Well, The Daily is number two in Apple's list. Gotta remember, this is Spotify. So Spotify's list is a little bit different, more recent shows. I don't know. So Yeah. And then number 10 is, Good Hang with Amy Poehler.

45:41 So she's cracked the top 10 in The US for top podcast on Spotify. Let's jump to talking in the last ten minutes of the show or so. Let's talk about what the forecasts are looking like for, advertising spend globally and in The US. Now there's always dueling numbers, isn't there? I go off of the numbers from the IAB. The IAB numbers to me are are more of the gold standard of what's being spent because the IAB, well, one, it works with PwC, this trusted source. And then they go and they actually reach out to to all of the different ad network and agencies in the podcast space and collect that data and anonymously well, so that it's not nobody knows who whose numbers are what. But because of that, I tend to think the the the PwC IAB numbers are the the gold standard. And and they had 2024 was around 2,400,000,000.0, for ads in The US. That's the number I go by. So is that, for 2020, four? Is that what you 2024.

46:42 '4. Okay. Yeah. You know, the date that I pulled here, I pulled from chat GPT. It it went and looked at all the all the sources, pulled it into create this. So it depends on where you pull it, how you make the request, and what platforms, it's pulling it from because there's a lot of difference in different projections that are out there. Right. There was definitely a big increase in 2024 versus 2023 with 2023 being down. But a lot of people are forgetting is twenty twenty three, four, we saw the whole iOS 17 issue and that hit and that caused some issues. Machine spend shows numbers dropped, especially ones that were selling back catalog. 2025, from everybody that I've talked with in the space, is going it sounds like it's going to be a much better year than 2024 was. So I think we'll see above that 2,500,000,000, number in 2025 when the IB releases those numbers come July or next year. That will be a forecast.

47:40 That'll be more of a precise actual number. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. The resource that you share, with me, Rob, says that the North American podcast market is projected to reach 65,760,000,000.00 by 2033. Yeah. And and I was sharing that as an example of what not to believe from from AI. We were gonna talk a little about AI, and and I wanted to do an example. So I just said to, well, I won't throw any of the AI's on the bus, but I said to one of the AI's, what are the three top news items in the last two weeks with regards to the podcasting space and the business of podcasting? And it was one about video podcasts, and it was one about podcast mergers, he does.

48:23 And then there was one North American podcast mark rejected to reach 65,760,000,000 by 2033, and stating that in 2024, it was 10,500,000,000.0. There is no scenario at all that you'd get anywhere close to those numbers. And no, those numbers are just completely BS. Looking up, there's a couple of unfortunately, there's a couple of bad articles out there. And I put in I took out the report profiles, players, like and I I took their names out. Out. NR1, name redacted one, name redacted two, because I know one of those two that was redacted is paying for fake downloads, you know, for the whole network. So you can't take anything that they say serious. Right. Yeah. Yeah. We kicked a bunch of their shows off. So I I know for sure that one of them, no. Numbers are BS.

49:07 And Yeah. And it's best what they're including too. I know that there's been a lot of people sharing numbers that are maybe trying to roll in, YouTube numbers right now, or they're adding different types of advertising that may be somewhat related to podcasting into the numbers to make Even if you include the number bigger. Even if you included the equipment that goes into people's podcast gear, the houses that go around their gear, you're still not gonna get to the numbers that Yeah. It's their the amount of money they spent on their office ludio. Right? Yeah. So there's lots of ways that you can you can spend the these numbers. And, but the big takeaway for for me on this, and and we talked about this a lot in the past on the on the show, is that the growth in the in this side of podcasting has not really been, very strong for many years.

49:56 It's been kind of laboring at this $22,000,000,000 mark for many years. And and I know it has a lot of people in the industry thinking about, well, how can we break through? Right? There's a lot of ad budgets that's sitting out. If you look at the bottom part of this screen too, I don't know how accurate this is, but, it says that podcasts are only 1% of the total US ad spend. I don't know how accurate that is. I get maybe a little higher than that would be my my assessment. But No. I mean, that is when I look at when we look in the IAB about all the ad dollars that are spent in advertising in The US, podcasting is still a very small percentage of that. And it's growing, and it we still feel podcasting advertisers have an opportunity. But then on the other side, some of those other mediums, if you said an an hour of radio, that's forty only forty four minutes of content. Right?

50:51 Sixteen minutes of ads. Most audio podcasts that are an hour long have less than seven or eight minutes of ads in that one hour of content. So podcasting still, has unless it's true crime, they get a little bit more. But for the most part, podcasts are underrepresented by the amount of ads, and that's a positive on why people listen to podcasts. Right? Some will tell you that that sixteen minutes of ads in an hour is too much, and that's why they listen to podcasts. So there is a balance that we have to go at, and we're not gonna there are some that say, hey. The best way to grow ad revenue in podcasting is shove in more ads. And that happens, unfortunately, for some bigger shows when they sign minimum guarantee deals. They they can make their minimum guarantee or the company that gave them you know, promised them the money is to overstuff it with that. Still load it up as they say.

51:38 Right? Right. Luckily, there's still quite a few podcasts that push back on that and say no. That's too much. I can't do that to my audience, and that's a good thing for the space that there's some restraint still. Yeah. You know, I think that's the tension though. I would say that the industry has really been discussing this and I hear on a few other podcasts and there there's a lot of other podcasts about podcasting now that are really drilled in and focused on the business side, and I try and listen to those as much as I can. And and it does give me the impression that the advertisers were kinda holding back somewhat, and I'm not quite sure that there's a good rational reason for that. I I think that they think that they're not able to get the the detail on the data that they would like that they get from the streaming services, of time spent listening, how many of the ads were actually heard, what you know, those kind of metrics that is difficult in podcasts to deliver that level and that granularity of detail. I know that the attribution part has been, a huge component of the pushback as well and getting that accurate and things like that. And that's what's really, I think, pushing the industry more and more to think about HLS, as a as a replacement for downloads, is to try and cater to what these advertisers brands are are pushing for, which is these deeper levels of metrics that are only without Apple support.

52:59 Big platforms. Without Apple support, doesn't. Yeah. That's the real run here is is it what's ironic about it is that I believe Apple was the inventor of HLS, on the streaming side, but yet they're not embracing it. So, you know, and it's just one one of those things that the industry, you know, would like to be a more commercially viable media. Right? I mean, if you think about how big even the radio advertising market was dramatically bigger than the podcast market, even though you could make a case that we're as bigger on talk I think we're equal to your radio. We're bigger than talk radio. We crossed that three years ago. Three years ago, we we crossed it in The US where there's more people listening weekly to podcasts than talk radio. Right. But that hasn't equated to the same equal revenue Oh, no. On the ad spend side, but that could get get back to ad loads too. You know? And if you look at some numbers that I've seen over the last couple of years with iHeartRadio, a lot of their podcasts have achieved the trophy of 16 and ad of ads on their podcast.

54:02 Yeah. Ass on the trophy you wanna have. But, you know, it it fits with your broadcast model. Right? So if you're trying to replace that revenue, which I think increasingly the the radio side would like to do, I can see why they went there. Right? And then to kind of move in to talk a little about AI, you know, iHeart is a good example of a platform that's incorporating, AI generated, host reads. So I think they're playing around with that technology. And then here's the thing about AI generated host reads. If it doesn't say at the beginning of the host read that it is AI generated, it is in violation of the FTC, rules. And the FTC has been very straightforward on that, that this is you need to state that. And and FTC and you'll be like, oh, well, the FTC won't correct. Yeah.

54:46 Ask Paris Hilton how that worked out for her. Yeah. Right. Not fully stating things. So people that are doing these AI generated ads and are not and I don't know if iHeart's doing it or not, are not saying that announced that they're rolling it out with a content platform, that that enables it. So Yeah. Yeah. They'll actually train on the host's voice. Beginning of that ad, it has to say, this is an AI generated ad. Uh-huh. It has to say that. If it does not state that clearly, unambiguously, upfront, they can and will likely get fined. Yeah. So and I also think, you know, I'm increasingly hearing this, and I'm sure you are too, Rob, that, there's people like, Elon Musk is a good example, that have come out publicly here recently to state that he thinks that pretty much all content will be generated by AI within five years. Yeah. I don't see that. That may be a forward looking statement, of what he would like to see, but that may not be what actually comes to pass. Not everything that Elon says comes to pass. So And he he says it from a perspective of a company creating AI generated content. Right. Exactly.

55:53 AI from Grak. Well, it's the same thing that that we're hearing from YouTube too, or YouTube kind of made this announcement that they're gonna go after AI generated content and take it down and all that stuff like that. But if you really drill into what they did say is that they're they're only going after certain types of AI generated content that they think is not valuable, and they want people to use the YouTube AI generated content option. And I've listened to more than a few, probably too many AI generated podcasts, and they are heartless, and they are soulless, and you can tell. And after you listen to them, the best thing they are for is ASMR. It's It's a great way to put you to sleep. Right, Ro? Yeah. They just I mean, they I'm sure they'll get better at some point, but there is just some part of the emotion that's missing, the spontaneity, the mistakes that are missing there. And it's like where you see that robot that almost looks human but is not quite is the creepiest of the Perfectly looking, that's okay. But if it's almost there, that's where the creep factor is in.

56:49 And that's right now, that's where a lot of the AI generated slop, and I'll call it AI generated slop, so that that one company can be mad. But that's where a lot of AI generated slop comes in right now. It's it's creepy. And you listen to it, and it is there is a tone to it that is very unsettling. Right. So I've heard some that are fairly fairly convincing, but usually you can tell. I don't know. It's it's been my experience. I don't think it's got to a point where it's not easy to tell. Yeah. Some of it may get there at some point. Right. Some of it's great if you're just trying to get some information and you wanna listen, you don't have time to read. Right? But Yeah. Me that's no different than going into a blog post and then hitting the pulling down on your iPad, and it dictates Yeah. And I think that the other use that we'll probably likely see is, AI will generate content that humans would not.

57:40 Or now granted, you you could put all sorts of different kind of measures on that of what a a human would not create, but I think it's this combination of speed to creation is one aspect of it. And then also the, topics or niche niching down to a granular level that would be beyond any human creator that they would wanna do organically. And I think that's kinda what the the Inception AI, platform is is doing. And so they're taking, like, one keyword and building a whole series of podcasts on that one topic keyword. I think I heard Janine Wright say that she had a episode about the killing, or the assassination of Charlie Kirk out and published and in the podcast catalog within ten minutes of Charlie Kirk getting a sentence. So, you know, telling all about it. So, you know, that speed to publish is probably what we're gonna see too, and that's maybe a threat for the the new services.

58:38 That's great because now you have nobody using gray matter to fact check things. Right. That was the example I gave earlier where Yeah. You asked AI about what's going on, and they're telling you that there's 5,000,000 global podcasts, and there's gonna be a sixty five, seventy six billion dollars in the podcast. They had space in 2033. The numbers are ridiculous, and any gray matter put to that would realize that. But, yeah, I I didn't. And, Nessa, you're gonna get a lot of the slop with where you did any any thought process on it. Well, that doesn't make any sense. Sense. That doesn't hold water. Well, Matt, run us here and said, well, welcome back to the podcast airwaves, Rob. Sounds like your mic source isn't the mic you wanted. Oh, I'm not sure. Really? Do I sound bad?

59:20 No. Which Rob? Let me, go in and double check my, I've selected my Oh, yeah. That definitely changed it. Sorry. I have an earbuds in. I should have noticed that. My my Rocast was so StreamYard was picking up the wrong mic. That's interesting. That's what and, you know, that's what Adobe, sweetener is for. Right. Now my lavalier didn't sound so bad after all. Right. So we both sound kinda comparable to each other, so that'll be good. But, yeah, I didn't I've never had to set this, to my RodeCaster before. So thank you, Matt, for letting us know. I I wish I would have known about that earlier. Yeah. That's where your guest should have said something, but I didn't realize it. So I was That's okay. Okay. Yeah. I should always check those things before and just make sure it's set to the right input. So so anyway well, Rob, I think it's been great to to do another episode. I was hoping to keep it, you know, under ninety minutes. So Get two podcasters together. And, you know, we're lucky. Yeah. Well, there's a lot I put you at Ted. We were gonna keep it under sixty. I'm like, well, that that was the goal, but as you can see, I didn't quite make it. I think I put too much content in the outline. So I'll learn from that and adjust it and just make sure that I check my mic input next week because that's the big thing I'm trying to do here, Rob, is create a a quality program, that sounds great on audio, but also looks great and has a good video experience too.

1:00:38 So so that's that's my goal. Yeah. And and I will say this to folks. Perfect audio does matter. It just has to be really it has to be good, but not perfect. The all in podcast is better than almost number wise than almost any other podcast out there, and it's just four guys on Zoom. Right. And the audio is on Zoom. Okay. But Right. Right. And it's not always great audio quality either. So Yeah. Yeah. That's true. So But Nick does what he can to clean it up. So Nick, if you're listening. Yeah. Yes. Off the good work. Do they host on on Yes. Oh, they do. Okay. That's awesome. That's one of my favorite. I listen to every episode. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You wanna know about what's going on in the tech world? Those guys have great insight and cover politics and other things. Yeah. No. It's an awesome show that they've had. They've really branched out into a bunch of different, areas too. You know, they're doing live events and doing all sorts of stuff. So so anyway, Rob, well, thank you for spending time with me tonight.

1:01:29 I I appreciate it, and I'll get this episode pushed up to the RSS feeds, and we can we can, start planning the the next episode. Alright. So yeah. So go what's that? Thank you for having me on. No problem. And if be sure to go check out the the newmediashow.com website, and follow Rob and I's social channels. We're both easy to find. Rob also has a podcast. His podcast four one one is is back. And I know it I was disappointing to hear that the the feed, is no longer publishing episodes, and and the band of you and Elsie got broke up, which is an unfortunate outcome for the industry.

1:02:12 Mhmm. But it's hopefully, we can bring the band back together again on this show, and try and make something that's helpful to to people as as well. And so up next at the end of the show, I'm gonna play the, the not the full episode of the remembering of Todd Cochran, but the intro video, just so we can kind of honor, Todd in this new episode as we kind of leave the show. But, I hope to be back next week, next Wednesday at 6PM Eastern, for another episode of the New Media Show. So thank you so much. Good night.