Are Podcast Networks becoming Creator Networks? | Greg Wasserman #666

0:00 - Welcome to the New Media Show with human - host and podcast hall of famer, Rob Greenfield. - Well, welcome to the Media Show again. This - is episode six sixty six. Are podcast networks - becoming - really more creator networks? - And has the audience - for online content that has been previously understood - as podcasting - getting redefined. - And we're we're gonna dive into that. Podcast - networks were originally built - for audio first space with the podcasting - industry, but audiences - have already moved the definition - of a podcast - beyond audio. Today, a podcast can be a - YouTube show, a Spotify video, an apple video - podcast, a live stream, a short clip, a - newsletter, - or related to a newsletter, - and part of a community or a creator - led media brand - that is a changing network model. Podcasting is - still important as a lane, but now it's - one format inside of a larger new media - ecosystem - is what I'm seeing right now.

1:09 - It seems like the next generation of podcast - networks - may need to become creator networks built around - trust, - audience - relationships, - and the message - and some form of productization - to create monetization. - So and then AI transparency - and community and live experiences. - And so the whole landscape is evolving. - My name is Rob Greenlee, and I'm a - podcast hall of fame inductee, longtime new media - and podcasting executive. - This show covers the future of new media - and the creator economy, podcasting, - audio and video plus AI, AI content, and - even - AI licensing - of content now is increasingly, - coming to my vision here of what the - future is looking like. And I'm joined by - a terrific guest, Greg - Wasserman, who's the head of relationships - at rss.com, - as well as has his own podcast.

2:08 - He hosts the podcast - network insight. So he's trying to drive clarity - to what's going on, trying to understand the - business of podcast networks. And I think it's - great to have you, Greg, on the show - here to talk about this interesting kind of - change topic. And I don't know if you're - feeling it too, but why don't you give - me a little bit of perspective on - on - what you think about where podcast networks are - today? And do you feel this - pull towards - it being redefined into something else now, like - a creator network? - Well, I mean, always good to chat with - you, Honored to join it in a in - a podcast, you know, hosting my own. It's - like, alright. We get to have these conversations - offline, but then to actually do it and - have everyone else listen, it's kind of fun.

2:53 - It's interesting because when I think about the - answers so, yeah, I'm host of Podcast Network - Insights. I'm interviewing the heads of Podcast Networks. - And the basis of it was, - one, I'm seeing a lot of podcasters feel - that in order to grow, they need to - join a network. And so - if you don't know what networks exist, you're - gonna end up joining the names that you - and I both know about, which are media - companies, whether the iHeart, Sirius, and so forth. - But are those the right fit for these - podcasters - of all different sizes? - And so figured, hey. Let's go ahead and - understand the the stories for each of these - networks. - A lot of them are niche in their - own verticals, whether you've got the OGGN, - which is oil and gas - or, marketing podcast network, which is just marketing.

3:38 - But you could find a fit for whatever - it may be. And and I think to - answer your question, - each network - is is answering the question because I start - every show, how do you describe describe podcast - networks? And each one has described it differently. - But there's a core to it, and the - core usually around, - community. - And now how they describe community is not - necessarily how we would be thinking, you know, - community. - It's more of a matter of like minded - shows, not necessarily the, - the the they're creating a community of these - shows. It's so it's like, if you and - I had the same kind of show, we - would not be interacting. - But in some networks, we are created that - interaction between the network. So I think each - one's just looking at it incredibly different. And - that's what I think is exciting about. So - if we look at new media and where - podcast networks are going, - they're all - trying to solve, in a sense, the same - issue.

4:35 - How do we how do we grow? - How do we monetize? How do we create - a community? - The differences is each one of them is - looking at it as, are they background in - media sales? So they're looking at it from - a monetization. How do we make as much - money and help these shows grow, which then - becomes kind of like a a, a rep - firm. - You know, you've got community which is core - to it, where it's like, hey, - better together. So how do we just bring - us all together and and go from there? - And many are also, of course, you always - ask the question, where's video come in? Live - is becoming a big piece for a lot - of them. So I think there's no real - answer and it's evolving - than just a - group of shows that were just doing podcasting.

5:19 - Yeah. I think it has kind of expanded - the the scope. And I think the entrance - of video in here has has really kinda - shaken everything up because I think when when - these podcast networks really the concept of them - over the last ten, twelve years - or so was really built around audio experiences. - Right? So in this concept of community, which - you've now added another layer to this conversation, - which is the community - inside of the network, - not the community that's being built outside of - the network. Right? So there's two communities that - could be being worked on here. Technically, - three if you add the the community of - the actual podcaster. Right? So the podcaster is - their their community.

6:02 - The network - is the community of shows, and that the, - the network of, of those community of shows. - The audience too. I mean, the audience comes - into play here too. So if you have - a, a network that's - built around a common theme, right. Or a - mission or, - or, you know, like all the shows are - all around, you know, building human health and - things like that. If that's your overriding theme, - then all the shows that pile in here - are all about - building human health. Right. So that's a community - in a core itself because they all have - a common interest. Right. - But then that's going to drive a community - out there of audiences too. - So, you know, how does - the network get involved in kind of - balancing those two - elements here? Because the external stuff - or the audience side of it is - probably - as much or more important. And as you - look to the future, becoming increasingly important as - more and more shows shift towards more building, - more private communities, - that that are have subscriptions behind them and - things like that. As we kind of head - back to like what podcasting was in the - terminology anyway, of subscribe to my podcast. Right?

7:16 - But now subscribe to a podcast means that - you're subscribing to a private community that you - maybe have to pay for. So let's just - talk about that a little bit. - I mean, - if I like, what we're talking right now, - what comes to mind is my conversation, - with Rachel from Nova, - Nova Entertainment, Nova Podcast Network, which is an - Australian based. And so I asked her, like, - hey, do you do anything from a community - standpoint? She's like, well, no one's ever really - asked. Like, our podcasters haven't really asked for - connection among each other. And so they're more - of, you know, Nova is kind of a - a a large media company, like a radio - entertainment company, - based in Australia. So they're looking specifically for - an Australian audience in the shows that would - be based for an Australian audience. So you - can aggregate - eight, nine, 10,000,000, - users that way. And then, of course, expand - it to more than just podcasting. But if - you look at Nova, they started off as - a media company. So media, just like in - iHeart, is a radio company.

8:15 - I started with CBS and now it's Odyssey - radio company. They're all moving into - social - video because they realize it's where dollars are, - but now you're staffing up a different team - to leverage that. - But at the same time, those companies aren't - also thinking about what we described as a - community. Like, hey, how do I bring our - shows together - not just to sell them as a package - but so that they can learn from each - other. So that you and I, if we're - on your network, we're going, hey, - introduce Greg and Rob and let you guys - do cross promos, let you guys handle that - as opposed to the network that's gonna operate - them. Go, like, well, if you want to, - I could do the cross promos. So there's - operational sides to it that each network's looking - at, which would now you add in multiple - layers of media, - not just podcast, but you're looking at social, - you're looking at video, you're looking at live - that adds even more levels of complexity that - depending on the operational side of the network - and how they've set themselves up, maybe - something they don't do, or maybe it is - exactly what they're able to do. Yeah. I - think in some ways, we're going back to - somewhat of an earlier era of podcasting. If - we're gonna head down this path of, of - collaboration, - genre - collaboration between creators, - which we've been kind of running against for - a while because of people's feeling of, you - know, competition. Right? So - if there's another show out there that's - got the same topic or the same related - audience, - they want to hold on to that audience.

9:45 - Right. So they don't - inherently - want to cooperate with a show that they - feel like could siphon audience from them. Right. - But are we heading back to a time - when we really need - to collaborate with other creators to build - a a bigger value equation to audiences? - I mean, if we're looking at what's old - is new or or if we look at - just the fact that - podcasting has moved into this new evolution and - we're we're asking what is a podcast. Right? - But if we're looking at what is a - podcast and it's being led by I think - we were talking in before we started recording, - and it's being led in a sense by - the media companies.

10:27 - It's now the Hot Words, so we'll talk - about that. And and we'll call it, - you know, - Netflix had the deal, and they're doing a - big thing on podcasting, - Spotify with podcasting. And they're throughout the end - of the day, they're media companies and that's - how they're looking at this. So from our - standpoint, - if we know that they're being run as - media companies - wow. I just lost my train of thought - here. - If they're being run as media companies, then - they're controlling - how that shows up. And so your question - is, - are are are we creating this this - this connection of shows. But if the re - and run is media companies, we just have - to look at your standard media companies. Channel - two with, - two five seven thirty two, whatever, - country or state you're in, you know, your - core your core network channels, - they're all promoting their own shows on that - channel. So ABC is promoting their own shows.

11:26 - NBC is promoting their own shows. Fox is - promoting their own shows. Like, those are in - a sense the TV networks. And that's exactly - how we're running things now. So it's ultimately - looking at are you a TV network, it's - a podcast network. It's just the media company - as its core. And so - a show that it's on, you know, the - the your network, - You guys are gonna all promote each other, - but - you would probably also promote shows outside of - your network just because that's the ecosystem that - you've created. - But in many cases, no, they're gonna keep - that ecosystem inside. You're never gonna hear a - ABC show promoted on NBC. That's that's blasphemy. - No. I remember when I was selling media - and we were like, hey, I could get - these media dollars to promote a universal movie - and I was working for CBS and they're - like, we don't want that. Like, we we - have to promote, you know, the Viacom or, - CBS stuff. And it's like, guys, dollars is - dollars. Yeah. But we don't wanna take those - people away. So it's to your point, we - don't wanna remove the audience. But if you're - treating it like a media company in that - regards, then, yes. If you're not treating it - as, - hold on. I can promote this. This is - good for my audience. This is good for - what I'm doing. Mhmm. Then you're not gonna - have that, that mindset.

12:42 - And if you go back to the the - the models really that have aligned with what - you're talking about with the the the larger - media companies, is that oftentimes those shows are, - you know, probably a little bit more considered - to be owned and operated - for on, on the network. So you do - have this spectrum, right? Of some networks - are aggregating, - independent creators, and then other ones are creating - a certain percentage - of shows that are considered to be owned - and operated by, by the network, - that re you know, really fund - the development of it and, and really take - care of the whole thing and are owned - by the network. And then there's other shows - on the network - that - are really run by independent creators that had - just have a licensing deal. Yeah. You know, - like a rev share deal with, with those, - those partners. You know, I used to work - at podcast one years ago and that's what - we did. You know, I I think we - had like 12 owned and operated shows - and, and like 180, - you know, rev share shows, right? That ones - that weren't really produced by us, but maybe - had a, a partial production - contract, but - most of them were independently produced and all - that kind of stuff. So you have that - spectrum in here too, that, - that really kind of, - makes it, you know, if it's owned and - operated, you're more likely to do cross promotion - across - the network. Right. But if you're independent show - and all those creators are competing with each

14:13 - other for audience, it's a little bit of - a tougher ask to get them to cooperate - with each other. And I think, you know, - is there a - new reason for doing that now? - That's, that's really, I think the bigger question. - I think if we go back to this - model of the media companies, - what are media companies actually focused on It's - revenue, - and revenue and from the monetization of ads - and sponsorships and, - the stuff I used to sell. - But the joys of at least the the - guests I have on my show is they're - not all monetized in that way. I think - the creator economy, but just the the economy - as it's as a whole, doesn't lend itself - to the only way you can make money - is through ads and sponsorships.

15:02 - Correct. I look at - Jason Falls and the marketing podcast network. You've - got an aggregation of 80 marketing shows. They - don't do a lot from a monetization of - ads, - but the fact that these shows are heads - of marketing departments, - marketing experts, so they're able to get clients - collaborate from a understanding of working, - unique industry knowledge. That way, they're making more - money - that than they would on ads. Now talking - with Jason, I'm like, you guys should probably - be doing more ads. - Not just because, - that is that is a revenue arm that - you can look at, but you're aggregating 80 - shows that are focused on just marketing.

15:46 - Immediate buyer out there should be saying, hold - on. I know the volume is low, but - the target audience is incredibly the key people - I want. - And that becomes the mismatch between how do - you get in front of buyers, what I - used to do, and a network like Jason's - where it's like, I don't have the time - or energy to go out there and try - and fight with these agencies and these media - buyers. So I'm gonna focus on the monetization - of - how do we do other things beyond just - ads. And I think that is why you're - able to do a lot more with - monetizing your audience not just with podcasts and - sponsorships, - but you throw in your YouTube, you throw - in live, you throw in courses, you throw - in whatever it is you want to monetize.

16:27 - You just have to find the right network - that that, - that, that is their model. Right. - Yeah. It's interesting. I, I didn't notice that - Jay Shetty, - basically pulled his show out of - out of YouTube - and going all in on the, on the - podcast, - Spotify. - Yeah. Right. Right. And in the Netflix deal, - which it's really an interesting deal that's going - on there with Netflix. And - I wonder if they're going to - going to actually last doing this, because if - you think about, you know, I think in - the early years, a couple of years ago, - Joe Rogan did the same thing. He, he - basically pulled himself out of the RSS side - and went all Spotify.

17:12 - Right. And - eventually they kind of bailed on that. Right. - And they went back to open distribution again. - And then here we see it cycle through - again, - and it's happening through a Netflix, which in - a lot of ways, - Netflix, I would throw in the bucket of - being a network - because they have their own intros. They're media - company. Exactly. - And they're, they're also, - licensing on rev share deals. I'm sure - with external creators or their licensing right content - into their platform. I mean, I don't know - how many old movies you see in there, - but there's a lot. - So you can see - this, you know, what's happening with Netflix is - becoming probably the, - the largest. Well, I don't know if the - largest, probably YouTube is the largest network at - this point. Yeah.

18:00 - But, but this whole Netflix model and how - they're leaning into - independent creator content - is, is quite a brand shift for them. - And so, you know, are you factoring in - what you're doing with covering, - podcast networks - into expanding it even into, let's say, - a network like a Netflix? - I would love to. I mean, the show - has no, - Balance. Right? - I mean, in a sense, like, it you - have to be a network define a network. - Like, I've got shows in there. - I look at Becky Mollenkamp who had on, - which is the feminist podcast collective - and, like, it's called - it's technically a network, but she calls it - a collective.

18:43 - Everyone hosts on their own platform - and it's more of just a community that - she's brought together that creates this educational environment - for - a value based, - collective of shows. And - and that is a very different business model - and different network model than as you and - I are describing right now about a Netflix. - But, - I'll have iHeart on there, I had Nova - on there. So, like, they're all running different - kind - of business models. - And what defines success is one of the - questions that people ask me. It's like, hey, - how do they define this success? - Each person is gonna define success completely different. - Netflix right now is looking at it. A, - they're stockholders, - you know. We're looking at it from an - industry standpoint. How many times in their - quarterly report are they mentioning the word podcast?

19:32 - And then we're talking about that from an - industry standpoint. But what defines a podcast? Well, - right now, podcasting is hot. So, of course, - they're gonna call that out. - Well, and they're playing into that Yes. That - kind of kind of narrative that I leaded - into is that is it that the term - podcast is now really - more appropriate to how the audience views - this content. - And, and it's less of a RSS, - you know, based - distribution methodology. It's more about what the audience - thinks it is, - is what's defining it. - But the whole concept of a collective, like - you were just talking about is an interesting - one because it's, - it's almost like a subgroup - of a podcast network. Right? It's - it has a lot of the elements of - a podcast network, but yet at the same - time, maybe it's - it's a concept that's a little bit more - of a - collaboration - network.

20:27 - So would you say that that's true based - on what your understanding of what a collective - is versus a network? - How she describes it - and how we would describe it, I think, - are - almost the same. Debate. Right? Well, no. Not - not almost the same, but, like, how you - would describe what is a podcast network and - how Becky is describing her collective as a - podcast network. That's what I love. Like, every - person has answered the question different. - Part of it is based on their background. - Part of it is is, - what they view a network to be even - if they're not operating in as the same - way that they would, - answer that question. - But I truly believe they're all looking at - it as it's - a it's a - aggregation of shows, - and - how they operate is very differently. Whether it's - a production company - that - ultimately is running a network, which I think - more production companies should be operating as in - networks or at least production companies should be - partnering with networks because, let's be honest, you - and I both know, if you're doing a - podcast - and you're working with a production company, - well, the only way you keep paying that - production company is if you grow and if - that production company is not there to do - your marketing for you and you still always, - no matter what, have to do that marketing, - that production company should probably go like, hey, - let me go find who these networks are - based on the shows I have and go, - hey, I got this I got this, - Farm League, - podcaster here that I'm starting to starting to

21:59 - do my show with and and you should - look at it. Right? Like, there's so much - more opportunities - are wrong across - the industry that we could look at beyond - just - how do we make money at a ad - supported, - medium. - Yeah. - As we look to the future of this, - I you know, this - this kind of tension that exists between independent - creators considering joining a network or being a - part of something like that, I kinda feel - it in my my own work with with - networks is that a lot of creators are - kind of - unsure - about - whether or not there's enough value to make - a commitment to a to a network. But - in some ways, there's - so little downside to doing it that it's - it's - it sometimes feels like it's trivial that they - decide not to.

22:51 - But but I guess it's kind of a - personal choice thing. So how would you answer - somebody that's, like, been doing a show for - two or three years and - and is trying to decide if they're gonna - join this or that network or a collective - or something like that. - What would you, - advise them - as a as a method for - choosing whether or not to join a particular - network? - I always say understand your why. I think, - one of the things I've got and I'm - working on from a training based on this - is, if you understand your why of why - you're podcasting, therefore, how you want us to - make money doing it. So, if, - if I take take Jason's in the marketing - podcast network, I'm like, I'm not in this - to make money on sponsorships and ads. I'm - in this to be around a group of, - like, minded marketing shows, - then - why wouldn't I join this? Now the only - reason you wouldn't maybe wanna join this is - you would then have to change your host, - move to the hosting platform that Jason's operating - out of, and you may be like, oh, - that's too much work. Yes. That saves me - some money on the hosting cost fees, but - the work that I have to go through - to change there isn't worth it. And so - maybe that's something you'd wanna stay independent on.

24:05 - So you could look at another network, like - I said, like Becky's where you don't have - to change hosts and go like, alright, - where's the independence that I get? Where's the - operational side that I get? Where's the opportunities - that I get? And what is it I'm - actually looking for? - If you look at our - quintessential - iHeart, - why would I go join iHeart? Well, I - know they're gonna inject nine minutes of ads - because they have a high ad load. That's - where they make their money. Their contracts are - volume based. So they're trying to get as - many shows as in that network. Because the - more net shows in there means the more - impressions, which means they're able to sell more - because at the end of the day, it's - all about the ad dollars there. - They're not in there from a community standpoint, - so good luck actually meeting other podcasters on - that network. They're not collaborating on that from - what I gather.

24:50 - I've got Nathan coming up on the show - but from when I gather, like, that is - not their their core. If I go back - to what, - Rachel said at Nova, like, that is not - what they're doing. So, some shows - or some networks aren't here, like, we just - want more shows. More shows means more inventory - I can go sell, which means I've got - buying power to get better CPMs, to get - better targeting, - fulfill campaigns. - And and so to answer your question, yeah, - it really depends on what you want to - do, what are you trying to do. - And too many are also and I think - we do this as an industry not just - as podcasting but just as a - marketing media industry, - from being in this for twenty years. The - cool and sexy thing is to make money - from ads.

25:36 - You know what I mean? If I told - you, Rob, that Airbnb was sponsoring your show, - you'd feel that'd be I'd be able to - go to coffee table and go, like, oh, - yeah. I've got a podcast and Airbnb pays - $3,000 - to sponsor my podcast. - But if you made a $100 because you - were able to sell a couple clients and - whatever it was you were doing or the - SaaS you were doing, like, that would be - a lot more financial benefits to you than - a $3,000 - sponsorship. - But most people are thinking the cool sexy - ego of having a sponsor by x y - and z as opposed to hold on, how - else could I make money - not having a sponsor? - And so you really have to ask your - answer yourself, like, why am I joining in - network? What am I trying to accomplish? What's - the value in this for me? Mhmm.

26:21 - Yeah. And I think if you'll, like, layer - on top of this as well, there there's - another component too is that I don't know - if you remember back to the earlier era - of media, - when the when when when the network, right, - was really in front of people in a - big way. Right? - Course, that was back in the era of, - fewer choice. Right? There were fewer networks. - So it made more sense - for these big, big media companies like ABC, - CBS, NBC, - to really brand themselves - as - a place to get certain shows - where we're in the era of the shows - are more important than the network.

27:02 - And I kinda wonder if, you know, some - of that old media model is gonna come - back into play, but - I think because there's so many networks - that exist today, that we may never get - back to that we're - promoting the network - in relation. - So I would say probably it matters to - Netflix. Right. - And it matters to YouTube, but those may - be the exception, not the rule. Right. - But more broadly, do you see us coming - back into a time when it makes sense - to promote the the brand of the network? - And what where Jeremy Westfall from GZN - on, and that was kind of one of - the conversations - he brought up. It's the branding of GZN, - GJN, - and just thinking about, you know, some of - what is it? I was listening to a - Pineapple Street, - podcast earlier today.

27:54 - Doesn't exist anymore, but you knew what kind - of shows Pineapple Street would produce. And so - having that Pineapple Street branding or Jeremy's case, - their branding on it means, like, I know - what this network value is. I know the - kind of content it's putting out. - And - and so I think you see that with - you know what's you know the kind of - shows that Hulu is gonna have. Right? - If you look at Disney back in the - day, like, an emblem - would not be the same kind of stuff - as a Disney entertainment - versus a touchstone. - I mean, they had different branding all under - their umbrella. And so I think you will - continue to see that because we wanna be - able to group things. These are like minded - shows.

28:35 - You look at what, - a 24, - which is, I think, what part of Fox's - networks. Like, each one's grouping, - certain kind of shows under - that guys. And and I think that also - helps us as as an audience - to understand that. So - I think more networks should probably brand. You - know, if I were to think about if - I'm joining a network, - the network value should be, - I'm gonna put this logo on my podcast - so that people knew that this is part - of this network. This is the quality you're - getting, but not every network does that. Yeah. - And I think about a lot of creators, - they want iHeart. Like, I want that little - iHeart logo on there - because it's a feel good. It makes me - feel like I've I've achieved, you know. IHeart - wants me, but, like, it's not really hard - to join the iHeart network in in some - regards.

29:25 - They just want to make their money and - and inject their ads and you're giving up - the control there. Now, there's nuances. So anyone - that's listening, iHeart. I apologize. - I know there's more and I can't wait - for for Nathan to come on but like - it's a higher level like - they're they're they're all operating in very different - ways. - I think one thing we didn't touch on - and I would love to because we've talked - about the past but like what we're feeling - like right now is the MCNs, - the full screens, the, - oh my god, the Machinima's, - the the YouTube - operating channels - of - what is it? The the mid, the early - two thousands, mid two thousands that we've now - just moved into. Like, okay, - those all - pivoted. They died.

30:10 - We've now got the podcast, but podcast has - moved into video. So great. Instead of just - video only, which is what the MCNs were - at the core, - we're now moving into - the new version of an MCN, - where it's truly a multichannel network, - and podcasting with video is becoming that key - piece. But then you throw in the live - component because I don't think the MCNs were - doing live too much back then. - But they were doing original content that you - knew. This was a full screen show. They - worked on the with the creators, - and they were I think Disney ended up - buying them. So you were getting the backings - by Disney and the writers by Disney. It's - like, you're seeing a lot of that, but - I feel that that's still all led by - money and ads.

30:54 - Yeah. It's interesting too. I've noticed - that Silicon Valley is putting their thumb on - the scale of, of media now with - some investments that they've made into some upstart - new media networks is what they're calling it. - Now. It's an interesting time - in this - transition that we're seeing between the, - the podcast economy of sorts, which has really - kind of led all this, - you know, new media development, really. And now, - you know, these big VCs are trying to - capture - what, what it is that they're doing is - somehow unique compared to, - you know, YouTube created stuff. And, and that - they're almost like, - you know, using this brand of new media, - they're almost trying to reproduce - a broadcast - again in a different format, younger generation, - you know, like the TPA - kind - of new new streaming show that's live on - X - where they have the, you know, it's almost - like, like CNBC - and, and it's really interesting how, - you know, there's these different groups inside of - the, of the media industry that are trying - to capture - a certain kind of innovation - is what I'm, I'm - capturing it as is that they're trying to - rebrand something. So there's a renewed energy by - around something that justifies their $100,000,000 - investment of open AI into this live streaming - show. That's just like, you know, like,

32:25 - was it - a stock talk on CNBC or somebody? And - that's kind of what it is. It's like - a live business channel, but, but it's, it's - almost like we're moving into a kind of - like a morphed - mainstream media, - digital media kind of ecosystem now. - And I think that a lot of the - big media networks that are out there right - now are, are rapidly transitioning - into becoming - more like that. Right? Where they're they're - being seen - as kind of really more more more digital - native. Right? So they're bringing in different talent. - They're bringing in different approaches to the shows. - They're - less formal - or more, you know, - younger, more, you know, - as a different approach to the content than - typically what you see on a major broadcast - network or a cable network.

33:18 - So we're seeing this munging together of concepts - and, - and that is a form of a network - to what they're doing there. - And I'm, - what are you seeing as far as changes - in, in how mainstream media - is adopting - these concepts that we're talking about around building - networks - that are more digital native. - I mean, you think about, - if we look at the big media companies, - how many of them have companion - podcasts to - their their, - TV shows or movies. Right? So Well, we're - used to in your early years of podcasting. - They all had full episode TV episodes in - their RSS feeds.

34:00 - Right. So And I wonder if we're gonna - come back to that again. - I have a hot take. - I'll share it here, but I think the - hot take I have is with Apple doing - the HLS, - you will eventually see more video being distributed - over that kind of, and and that just - becomes another distribution channel. Yeah. Right. And I - think that is where - everything's gonna go. We know this from a - media standpoint. - Dollars go dollars are just gonna funnel wherever - you're gonna get the most. And so video - happens to have that. Right? - We've seen this with YCTV - is doing far more is a higher CPM - than a programmatic ad on audio.

34:44 - No matter how much we fight it as - an industry from an audio standpoint, we're like, - they're more engaged, they're this, they have higher - yada, yada, yada. It is still just, - video, video, video. I remember when I was - at CVS, - one of the things we were taught, - you look at like news channels. So here - in LA is KNX. - They could charge more because the person who's - listening to a news channel is far different - than the person who's listening - to a music station - and passive versus active listening. And so you're - you're gonna continue to see the fight for - attention. - We, as a media industry, will continue to - try and figure out, you know, Tom and - Sounds Profitable or - or Paul in Signal Hill. Like everyone's just - trying to figure out like what are the - stats and we'll continue - to make those, - make those cases - for, - unfortunately, for dollars to come in because everything's - run by dollars.

35:42 - Even though I go back to if I - look at how many of the networks I've - talked to, how many networks I've got coming - on the show and hopefully far more, they're - all not just focused on the ad dollars, - they're focused on all these different components. - You know, in some cases, and we could - look at you and I just - and my guess, I'll go more with you - and and your longevity in the space - and how many podcasts you've done that's, like, - I'm not making money on this. This builds - my know, like, and trust. This builds my - industry. This builds - my ability to just talk about something. - We will always have creators that wanna do - that, whether it's - on Instagram, whether it's or whatever social platform, - whether it's on video, with YouTube, with Twitch, - podcast, - choose whatever medium it is, no matter which - medium, - you're still playing the algorithms and you're still - have to hustle for, - the attention and put out good content.

36:38 - Yeah. Well, that's the bottom line. Right? All - of this, but - not everybody, - is driven by - driving big audience either. And, and, and I - think that's, that's the spectrum here is, - is it some people it's, - it's more about who's listening. - And I think we may be, - HLS may give some exposure - to, to that in a different way, as - we look to the future, - of knowing who your audience is, how far - they're listening, what the engagement is. And I - think that there's been a lot of - YouTube stats envy. That's been around for a - few years now, - that the podcasting industry is like, you know, - when Apple's seeing what's going on too. They're, - they're smart people over there. And, - and, - they're - seeing the opportunities - that could be - coming to podcasting if we had better, deeper - metrics - and, - HLS - gives an opportunity for us to build that - out over time and - into - more readily compete with like a YouTube on - the modernization side, because I think we've been - in a little bit of a disadvantage, - for the last few years on that. And - so - I do wonder though, in the bigger picture, - this this addition of HLS into Apple Podcasts, - and I've had episodes where we've talked about - this to some degree in the past, but, - do you think that it's gonna matter what - Apple is doing here - with all on the video side with so

38:10 - much momentum - around all these other platforms on the video - side, do you think it's gonna - get, get the attention that maybe it could - get, or - do you think it's, it's gonna, you know, - be a flop on on landing? So - I, - I mean, being the head of relationships for - a hosting company, rss.com, - and we haven't figured out our own pricing - model. Right? Yeah. Right. - I don't know. I think is is the - biggest thing. You you've got creators that are - going, hold on. - And this is this is where education comes - in, and this is I was literally talking - with someone about this yesterday. - They didn't understand - why it's - why it's free to be all these places.

38:52 - And I'm like, come on, people. - Like, let's take a moment back. Is it - free to be on Instagram? - Yes. Is there a cost to being in - Instagram? Yes. - Yeah. What? There's a cost? Like, yes. You - are ultimately helping a what is it? A - $3,000,000,000,000 - market cap company - drive - their - ad sales - with your content, - and pushing an audience to there that they - control the algorithms - and they get to control the payout and - you get to complain I got kicked off - or my POs got kicked down, like, whatever - it is. Like, this is this is no - different. So - I think what HLS or, sorry, what Apple's - doing is ultimately saying, like, hey, we're gonna - give you the control.

39:35 - But as a creator, like, hold on. I - now have to pay how much money, - which each of our hosting platforms, ours no - different. We don't have the pricing yet, but, - like, each one's got a different model. - It's ultimately gonna be tied to advertising, - and that's where it's like, hold on. - But there's a cost to it. And when - there's a cost to it, it's like, great. - We, as the hosting company, are gonna are - gonna stomach some of that cost. We're gonna - pass that on to you by what we're - charging. Some of that's gonna be eaten up - by advertising, and there's rev share. But, like, - it's no different than what Spotify and YouTube - are doing right now. We're, like, upload whatever - you want for free, - but we control the platform, we control the - algorithm, - we control the monetization.

40:19 - Currently, I don't think what YouTube's got dynamic - ads, you have to bake it in. So, - there's all these different components that go into - it. - I think if we look at the large - media companies, - they're all trying to figure that out. And - at some point, - I was talking with the person yesterday about - this. At some point, - just like there's one dashboard for you to - control all of your social posts because agencies - need to be able to control all those - social posts in one place. - You will eventually have to have a dashboard - for media buyers and agencies to be able - to place their ads in Spotify, Apple, YouTube, - Twitch, wherever that video is, no different than - you've got on social.

41:00 - Because as a media buyer, - you wanna be wherever your audience is, you - wanna be able to - reach that audience on whatever content, whatever platform - it is, then you have to be able - to go down that path. But right now, - we're not there. Right now, it's a a - fight for attention. It's fight for - who - is Netflix by taking Jay Shetty off of - YouTube. Is Netflix able to move his audience - over there and get the exclusivity? - I mean, I listen to the column app - and Jay Shetty's in the column app, but - he's also all these other places. There's a - great brand deal for him, but who knows - how it works out economically for everyone. Well, - that and plus there's a good chance that - he's gonna lose audience when he does this - too.

41:40 - So I still say, - Joe Rogan lost millions of dollars, - but operationally - it was an easy thing for him. Had - he just, or was it, yeah. Was it - taking - a share of ad revenue or was it, - you know, getting a guarantee? - So I think that was the, that's the - trade off these guys make, right? Is, is, - you know, - they offered $10,000,000 - or a $100,000,000 - you know, for a two year deal. - What's my potential revenue on just taking a - rev share off of my natural - audience. And if it's - the same or equal, just take the deal. - Right. - But in the long run, and I think - that that's why - Joe came back to wider distribution is that - the Spotify, - Spotify realized that they could probably scale Joe - show bigger and make more money from it - on a higher, higher scale. Right. And versus - using his show as a way to get - subscribers.

42:39 - And once they saturated that - subscription, - appeal of sorts by having Joe over there, - then it made sense to open it back - up again. And that that's probably what's happening - to some degree with Netflix is I think - Netflix is using this as a way to, - or or they think that by bringing on - Jay, that's gonna get more people to subscribe - to Netflix for some period of time. I - mean, but that's the math everyone's looking at. - Right? If we put out if we look - at why does this show get canceled after - one season? I love this show. Well, it - didn't drive the subscribers that the - platform needed, you know? - Netflix didn't get more subscribers, which is ultimately - what's going to pay for that - second season because second season is going to - cost you more.

43:24 - Not enough people are watching it from an - ad supported standpoint. - So there's so many different - but it all goes back to the economics - of advertising, which if we go back to - networks, - the podcast networks and the conversations I get - to have is, like, it's not all - ad supported. It's all not - it's not all ad dollars. - But from a new media, they're all moving - into, - okay, social - video. - But if they're not looking at that from - a revenue standpoint, the creator at the end - of the day, anyone listening has to agree, - the creator has to do the hustle. Every - one of my network operators has said, like, - that Yep. You have to hustle.

44:05 - And if you're not hustling, you can't expect - anyone else to do it. And we could - look at why did this - movie fail. - ABC didn't do a good job marketing, or - Disney didn't do a good job marketing it, - or this the, the talent didn't get on - to all the press junkets they need, or - the the company that they outsource for the - trailer did a terrible job understanding what the - movie is, and the trailer didn't do well. - And then we see it later on. It - becomes a cult classic. Like, at the end - of the day, you still gotta hustle, and - and and it's not all for sure thing. - Well, if you can be a part of - a big network that has big budgets and - big reach, - then, you know, and I think that's the - the factor that Joe - Joe Rogan factor when he did the deal - with Spotify is just the, just the sheer - reach of the platform and the prioritization - that he's gonna - get from the platform in cross promotion and - promotion and - PR and spin and all that stuff that - goes along with the deal like that. And - the same thing that now we talked about - it on this show about the, the Jay - Shetty deal, - Jay Shetty probably wouldn't even come up in - the conversation if he hadn't done that deal.

45:14 - So, you know, there's, there's elements of this - that around PR and promotion - that, that help, you know, the network and - it helped the shows too. - But it also - is, - it really begs the question around, you know, - how is this economically supported? Right. And just - like what you said, you know, there, there - is a certain amount of subscription fatigue out - there. Right. And then there's this tension of, - of, if you - deliver enough ads, - then you're going to convert people into - a subscription model. But then is there oversaturation - of subscription model? And once that happens, then - where do we go? Right?

45:54 - So We're definitely in that subscription fatigue. - The jokes right now is with the playoffs - going on as we record this, you know, - you get the NBA and NHL playoffs. It's - like, I don't know what channel to watch - to get what game, and that's a terrible - thing. I'm like, hold on. If I've subscribed - to this, I can only get this game. - But if I subscribe to this, I can - get that game. I can't I can't watch - them all. I mean, that's a as a - fan experience who just wants sports, I mean, - that's a terrible thing. So now you gotta - package and bundle it all together. - That's a that's a terrible experience right there, - but it's all about the subscription. So I - think you do have a valid point. - Joe Rogan, I think what is it? Joe - Biden is making millions of dollars from a - subscription.

46:36 - What is it? Supercast - with Red Sea Ventures just did the whole - deal on, - Spotify, - video subscription, I think that was, if I'm - remembering today's Pod News, right? Yeah. Okay. So, - there's so many different ways as I keep - going back. There's 20 plus ways to make - money. It's just a matter of how do - you want to make that money? How do - you want to invest your time? - Where are networks or where are operators going - to go creators, individual creators, gonna be outsourcing - their team? I mean, I talk about this - all the time. I'd rather spend - $30 - to hire a production company to do my - show - so that I can make more money on - not producing and not learning how to edit - a show but actually go make the money - on whatever I'm going to make the money - and whether it's closing deals, it's, - getting booking, whatever that may be. So, - you will eventually see these media companies will - have the teams that'll be able to run - not just their ad sales, but run their - social, run their video, run X, Y, and - Z.

47:40 - You look at like Midas, - the Midas team and - small lean team, but how much content they're - putting out there across all different channels - because they realize it's a content game. It - is the algorithmic game, but they've also figured - out what good content is because - the three brothers know those different unique, aspects - of it. So, you know, I have to - ask you about this one topic Okay. That - that is, - that's hot on everybody's mind right now. And - I'm trying to get everybody's kind of, - feel about where where we are right now, - and it's and it's really focused on AI. - Right? - Do you hear any of these networks talking - about, - how they're - either embracing it or not, or are they - looking at ways to bring efficiencies?

48:28 - Are they, you know, how are you hearing - that people are using AI in the content - creation? - Ecospace. I mean, I'm seeing so much - interesting stuff out there that I can't help, - but bring it to this show. - That is that that is radically gonna change. - Actually, the next couple of episodes are going - to be mind blowers, - because of what is happening out of the, - the the whole Silicon Valley area - with AI. And I just wonder, because podcasting - has historically been a little bit behind the - times when it comes to, - to technology and adopting it. Right. And in - improving. And in some ways, this what's happened - with HLS and Apple is a is a - sign of that is that, we kind of - fell behind, you know, YouTube and what YouTube - was doing, and now we're trying to catch - up. Right? And I would apply that same - thought process to AI and how it's integrating - into the the fabric of podcasting and the - fabric of new media now.

49:31 - What are you seeing these network operators? What - are they saying about AI? - It's really funny. So - this is really timely, and I believe, like, - you know, life is about time relationships. You - have no clue where conversation is gonna take - you. So I think it was - yesterday. - I was talking to a customer of ours - in the RSS, - community, - And they've got an AI podcast. - Oh, it's all all AI generated? It's it's - I don't know the full story if it's - her stories that are written or if she's - using AI to write these stories, then using - AI to create the voices. - And I'm like and and so we're we're - we're messaging back and forth over text. And - I'm like, I don't understand why anyone would - wanna listen to this AI generated voice to - help them sleep because that's what her this - specific show is.

50:24 - And she's like, Greg, there's actually research. There's - actual people that are saying they'd much rather - listen to the monotone - AI voice for sleep than - the voice of you and I or or - maybe, you know, a voice for radio. - And and she sent me the the research - and and it was it's mind boggling to - go like, woah, - that is interesting that a human would much - rather connect - for sleep to that AI voice - than a realistic - human voice because this literally sounds like the - notebook LM voice. Right? And we're like, you - know, that voice when you hear it. - So to hear that, and to hear the - stats that are being that are coming out - and thinking about - that, - it's alarming. It's sad, - in many respects.

51:16 - That's a that's a humid we can go - down. - But to answer your core question of like, - what are networks doing? I'm seeing it across - the board. - Whether it is using AI for ads, whether - it's using AI for podcasts, - the standard, you know, how do we just - create better scripts and take - a I mean, I use AI. I use - Castmagic for my podcast. I record my intro - and outro after I've recorded it. So, I'll - run that podcast through Castmagic. - I have a prompt going, hey, here's my - intro, here's my outro. I'll make my modifications - from there and then record afterwards. - And and so there's so many different ways - you can use it from a script writing, - from - social, but - I'm seeing it across the board.

52:01 - And then I'm seeing, of course, a lot - of AI networks. - Like, the big name, I won't list it - because there's no reason to, - is is the pinnacle of that. - But there's so many networks. I mean, we - once we launched rss.com - launched our API, - I saw how many AI podcasts - started creating on our network plan because for - $20, you can host as many shows, and - there you go. And so they've got the - API and how many of those shows are - now just able to do - generic AI content. - You can either gamify it. And so this - reminds me back to the - early two thousands where - pod or not podcast, websites were just creating, - whatever articles they want. They I was selling, - pay per click at the time. So, you - know, pay a dollar to drive traffic to - a website that's got $10 worth of ads - on there, and you just arbitrage it. So - we're seeing the arbitrate arbitration.

52:57 - I don't even know if that's a word - of that with podcasting right now because it's - easy to go to an Amaze, to go - to a Mo Pod, - buy traffic, - use bots, - and and - generate revenue by I'll pay this company X, - I'll make X plus Y. And, and - you do that at scale. That that's exactly - an easy thing to do. - Yeah. I love it. - I would agree - in general and even beyond what you're saying - about, - how, how people are increasingly trying to use - AI - in their content - and their production and their workflows and the, - the agentic workflow.

53:38 - The, the last episode that I did really, - did a deep dive on agentic workflows - when it comes to, - you know, not necessarily - creating the content entirely, but to augment, - its production and distribution and - social media and all these layers of things - that, humans have typically had to do. And - that's, you know, typically why we've seen, - larger creators hire, - you know, good size teams, you know, like - a Steven Bartlett with the diary of CEO - is a good example. He's got like 60 - people that work for him to produce that - show. And he spends anywhere from 40 to - $100,000 - on each episode that he produces.

54:22 - Cause he's making maybe 4 or $500,000 - on every episode he publishes. - So, you know, it's, - it's the economics of it that is pushing - this. - Is a Steven Bartlett going to, - you know, two years from now, is he - gonna fire all of his - staff and just have, you know, 15 - agents that are doing all those processes for - him? - I, I, I think it's a possibility, - that that could, could happen. - I think it's still early for the podcast - space to - understand and embrace - to some degree, - you know, agentic, - type - agents and, and AI technology. And I'm trying - to go all in on it and - learn, you know, what's going on with it - because I think it's transformational.

55:08 - But the AI generated stuff is really got - people spun up and - worried and concerned about, you know, like you - said, humanity. - You know, where does where does humanity fit - into this - this - emerging ecosystem that is happening around AI content? - And there's a growing backlash, - right, that's been building, you know, humans feel - threatened by it, on one hand, and it's - there's - that's a rational thought process - to some degree. - It can become a little irrational, but that's - that that's kind of a progression that happens. - But it's, - yeah, it's really interesting to see how - AI is going to impact all this stuff.

55:51 - And, you know, and the, the other layer - to this too, is, - is AI is going to be the first - one to, - sees your content, your human content, and it's - going to evaluate it, and it's going to - decide who gets to see it. Yes. And - the pathways - for consumption are increasingly going to be through - AI interfaces. - So this, the age of - apple podcasts in the certain form it is - today, - or Spotify, - or even to some degree, YouTube, - may not last too much longer. - The, the, and that's another layer on this - too, is that we're going to be, - you know, enslaved by the algorithm.

56:32 - And that's really AI is an algorithm. - So it's there's not much of a daylight - between AI and algorithms. - So And, I mean, for anyone that's listening, - I'll let you know. I've lost two jobs - in a sense because - social media companies change their algorithms. - Used to be at the largest publisher - of Facebook content. - Yep. 2017, - you know, I always market as the Cambridge - Analytica even that. Yeah. I remember that. That's - not it, you know, like, that wasn't a - reason but, like, that was a big thing. - Facebook changed the algorithm and we went from - 5,000,000,000 views a month to a billion views. - I mean, monetizing that, you're like, there goes - the company. Now, the company, of course, rebuilt - but, like, they had to let people go.

57:14 - We had the largest - Pinterest page - and I was doing one post would do - 3,000,000 organic views a week. Pinterest changed the - algorithm and went down to 300,000. - I couldn't sell I could easily sell 3,000,000, - because everyone's like, woah, one post and I - get 3,000,000 views organically? Incredible. - 300,000? - Not so much. So - it's a very different, - vibe. So if we are then always tied - to an algorithm, then that's a terrible thing. - And then if we go back to your - AI component here, I'm a people person. If - you can't listen to this, - component here, - I'm a people person. - If you can't listen to this, I talk - for a living. I - title is head relationships. I love talking. So, - as much as I love the gorillas and - going to see the gorillas live where - you don't really see the band, it is - the the the screen and they've got the - entire animation there.

58:05 - There's something about, a, going to a networking - event. There's something about going to meet a - podcaster, to meet an artist, to meet an - experience. - I can't imagine going to - a live podcast recording when it's not really - a live podcast recording and it's these virtual - hologramic - voices. - And something about that just feels like you're - bringing the community together. It's like, okay, all - of us who love this person, this person, - quote unquote, - is there, but it's like - and so that's why I use gorillas because, - hey, they are massive, but they are not - no one really knew who the voices were - behind them because we're just used to the - animations. - Sure. And so we are seeing a lot - more. You and I both know a couple - of companies that are doing, you know, AI - video, - to match just the vocal side of the - audio components. So it's like, hey, I don't - wanna do video - on screen, but give me this. And they're - able to do that.

59:04 - AI video podcasts are coming. - Yeah. - We - we just haven't seen it yet. - So it's - But there's something to be, like, once again, - the podcast I'm listening to right now, - if it was AI journalist, which you could - technically, - you could probably create this show - to most degree, maybe not today, but pretty - soon AI. The difference is - the stories that are being told on it - where - it is, - I met my buddy and my buddy told - me this and I met this and met - this and that. And so it's like a - humanistic side of it. You could probably tell - the story without that humanistic side, but something - about that humanistic side - makes the story far better than what actually - the story ends up being. And and - Sure. I will want that. And then the - people are like, I don't need that kind - of story. Just give me the insights. Is - this true? Is it false? What happened? Break - it down into a thirty minute episode.

1:00:04 - Give me the facts, Jack, - episode. Right? Is that what it is? Yeah. - Well, that's what AI is gonna be good - at. - It's gonna be good at giving you, you - know, some - some version of the facts of sorts, - to be realistic about it. - You know, - AI is not known for, you know, - it's it's candor or it's a transparency - of sorts, but, - that's a whole nother discussion - on AI, right? It's, - I do think that it's, it's going to - have a revolutionary - impact on what we're doing here. And, - you know, - I'll ask you this question. Do you ever - see yourself creating a, - a, a Greg Wasserman, - AI clone?

1:00:49 - Like you're doing, - Well, I haven't done it yet. - No, no. Mark Zuckerberg is doing - or, - yeah. Yeah. But, but I do think it's - an interesting experiment to do. And it's, - you know, how close are we to - being indistinguishable? - And I've had this conversation on past episodes - of this podcast or the show. - We are getting very close. If you look - at the latest models - that are out there, the, the Hey, Jen - and, and, - and some of the models that are available - through - Gemini, - there's, - we're getting very close to - not being able to tell, - and be able to create different versions of - our avatars - very quickly, - that will put us in different clothes, put - us in different hairstyles, - have us with hats on and without hats.

1:01:43 - And we can just interchange these and make - them, you know? - So, I mean, I think we're just coming - into a weird era. Right? And I think - at the end of the day, it's about - trust. - Are you disclosing this stuff, - that you're doing this? I think we're entering - a time where, - identifying your content as human - hosted content or human content is gonna be - more important than labeling it as AI content. - I love that. I mean, you've you and - I both probably read the same trades, but - I love what Dan Kendall from, the Health - Podcast Library and Health Podcast Network said. It's - like, hold on. If this is medical and - your AI posing is medical, that should be, - a, taken down or Yeah. You should notified.

1:02:27 - Yeah. Call call the AI a doctor there. - I mean, even when you're watching a a - commercial and the bottom fine print, this is - a portray actor portrayal of a doctor. So - if if the - advertising that, though. I mean, Greg, a lot - lot of people will see that disclaimer in - the show notes. I mean, how many people - read show notes? How many people can read - the fine print, but at least it's there. - Right? So Well, it is there, but it - probably needs to be on the screen. Yes. - So I've - you know, if I'm using AI in any - of the visuals like I did with the - the the intro to this show, I did - put a little bug in there that says - AI. That was AI? I thought that was - a real person. I'm joking. Well, you know, - it, it certainly didn't sound like me, but - it kinda had a likeness to me. Yeah.

1:03:11 - And it plays well on the audio side. - So that that's the thing. And that that's - the only thing we haven't really talked about - too, is, is this tension now exists between - being a video first grader. - And I'm sure a lot of these networks - are dealing with this issue right now, too, - is that as we move into this HLS - era in podcasting, - you know, there's going to be increasing consumption - of audio - that comes out of the video - as a replacement for a separate MP screen - experience. Right. - And I do I have noticed that a - couple of platforms, I think Captivate was one - of them that has built in a separate - RSS feed in their account that you can - publish audio into, - versus the HLS stuff.

1:03:56 - So - it's going back to what this show has - been doing for fourteen years is I've got - an audio feed and a video - feed. So the whole HLS thing didn't entirely - solve that dilemma. Right. It was, - you know, so if you want to create - a different audio experience for your show, which - is what I do with this show, - I do a deeper edit. I do - other types of transitions and things like that - in the audio than I do from the - video, because the video is video, right? - Audio always takes a backseat - on video. - So - it's kind of hard to avoid it though. - I think Justin - Jackson from transistor - is trying to - figure that, that issue out with his new - show.

1:04:40 - But, - I think it's possible - to do that, but you have to be - very conscious and very - deliberate about it in order to If we - are a Right. If if new creators that - are coming out don't know the difference, therefore, - I don't think they're gonna care. If we - look at, - Tidal, I think, right, - was it Jay z's platform where it was - supposed to be a music that was high - def and how many people were paying attention - and and focusing on that? - There's there's always gonna be a subset. You - just have to figure out the economics - there. - And I think if more creators right now - don't understand the difference or the value - or we're so focused and we're pushing people - to do video, - you're gonna lose that component, but there will - still be a subset.

1:05:26 - And I mean, I look at how many - of my creators at rss.com - are like, I don't do social. I'm like, - How do you grow? Well, there's other ways - to grow. It just becomes a harder struggle, - even if that's not your focus of growth - but you just want to have that conversation - with the guests that you're bringing on. So, - I think - we'll play no matter what, we're always gonna - continue to play to these algorithms. - It's it's up to us as creators to - decide, do I wanna play into this? Do - I have to play the game? Or how - do I play this game? I think from - a network standpoint, - each network is operating - in a very different space of understanding. - Is this the game I'm playing? - Or am I writing a manual? Look at, - like, Marc Lecorre and OGGN, - all owned and operated, all oil and gas - shows, and he's making - significant amount of money on doing live shows - as well. So does he need to play - into, - some of the other sponsorship models that - that a iHeart is is playing into? No.

1:06:25 - So, - I think there's possibilities - as the medium shifts, those that are staying - on top of it, thanks to your show - that are keeping people around the new medium, - but also understanding - is this aligned with what I need to - do? Is this aligned with my values? - And and I think a lot of the - shows that I've talked to so far, - they're community value based - as opposed - to how do we just maximize - our core revenue with ads. - Yeah. I hope that we move into an - era here as we've we've kind of shifted - to - a significant amount of creators being video first, - that we see the audio first creators really - double down on what they're doing, - and, and really - increasingly - create compelling audio experiences - in their audio feeds. So they can, they - can still stand out right in a way - that we'll be able to compete against the - onslaught of video that we're going to see - in the future.

1:07:28 - And that could come into areas like spatial - audio. It could come into more advanced kind - of models of how to produce - compelling and - interesting sounding audio experiences. And I hope that - the industry kind of doubles down on that. - And we actually - need to do that. I think, - unless we're going to go down this model - of, of increasing - sophistication - around AI generated audio experiences, - which, - which is an interesting question. - How far down that rabbit hole do we - want to go and how far down that - rabbit hole will the technology be able to - take - us? Because from what I'm seeing, - it just in the next twelve months, - we could see a very different landscape - for content creation.

1:08:15 - And - I, I worry about that because, - you know, people are gonna get lost in - the shuffle here - because of that transition. Because of some of - the stuff that I'm seeing out of Silicon - Valley, and I'm going to be bringing onto - the show for other people to see, - we are coming into an era of, - of - full spectrum interactivity - with - audio - experiences and increasingly video. So the audience can - actually - have their own unique experience - in a show, - right? It doesn't have to be this - record and distribute to everyone. It can be - a, a program that's interactive with a human - audience, but is - customized - to every audience member.

1:09:02 - And so - that's a whole different way of thinking about - content. So which is what that's the era - that we're moving into, and it's you know, - we shall see. I look at - Peter Feroli with Pantheon and what he's doing - with liquid content and how he's looking at - the audience. - I don't know to the extent if he's - doing exactly what you're saying, but he's looking - at how do we create better audience experiences. - So it's like, look, if I only have - a thousand people listening as opposed to a - million people listening, I'd rather have those thousand - people that are more engaged that I'm able - to as a host - connect more with that audience, - than - the passive - listening and trying to go, Hey, - write me, email me, DM me, whatever it - may be. It's like, no, literally watch it - in this experience and have, that one on - one.

1:09:55 - The hard part about that is - will the platforms - will users change their behavior from the platform - standpoint? And we go back to this Jay - Shetty. We're trying to get - a user who is watching Jay Shetty on - YouTube going, like, hold on. Now I've gotta - go and watch Netflix. Am I do I - love Jay Shetty enough that I'm gonna go - do that? Or, - or, you know, - if I'm gonna go do that, or, you - know, if I'm gonna go find another subscriber, - they're not a Netflix subscriber. Right. Then, - then that's where the opportunity is for Netflix. - Yeah. - That'll be interesting. - Yeah. So - but eventually, that opportunity runs out. - They will have captured all of Jay's audience - at some point, whether it's a year from - now or whatever, and they say, Jay, you - know, that's it. But that's but, I mean, - that's every contract. That's every contract. Yeah. It's - probably a one year or two year term.

1:10:48 - I heard at one point that a lot - of the shows that are in that Netflix - deal, I don't know if this is accurate - or not, are one year deals, - which tells you everything you need to know. - Sense. They're like, is this learning? Are we - testing? Like, it's everything's test and learn right - now. Yeah. Right. But I think Yeah. If - you look at, sign up for - what is it? I'll just put on my - partnership hat, - Amazon. Sign up for Amazon Prime and get, - what was it? Paramount plus for free for - three months. I mean, that is just the - Paramount team and the the Amazon team going - like, look, - we're gonna pay you or it's a rev - share - or x amount of people will end up - signing up. And if x amount of people - sign up, we need to look at the - lifetime value. So if I give you three - months after that, will they stake around for - a year? If so, then this was a - worthy partnership.

1:11:38 - If not, then, hey, we did the marketing, - and we made the big hoopla, but it - didn't work. But, like, that's just partnership one - zero one is just testing, learning, and and - figuring how do we how do we grow - this. - Yeah. I mean, if we're talking about Netflix, - I mean, it is a departure on their - their brand relationship that they have with their - user base. - I don't think most people that, you know, - for years that have subscribed to Netflix, - think that that's a platform for video podcasts. - I'm not sure that that was part of - their brand association - that has been so linked up with, movies, - TV shows, - and comedy. - Comedy. - If you get into the genres. - Yeah. So, you know, that's, - that's them trying to break out of the - box - of what they're trying to do. But in - a lot of ways, it's kind of an - old media model too. It's like, - I'm, I'm going to be the curator of - what people like. Right. And it's this gamble, - on their part. I think if they really - want to compete with podcasting, they open it - up - to - all the video podcasts - and have it over there.

1:12:44 - But - that's just me and how I look at - the market, which is a different. I couldn't - see a Netflix doing that. - I know. They they managing that is going - to be tough. - B the economics of that are tough, but - the curation of that content - is gonna be, is it difficult? But if - you look at, Yeah. But that's, that's the - old media model. Right? It's, it's the gatekeeper. - Right? That's telling people what - Netflix thinks that people want. Right. Which also - is, - is part of the algorithm play, which is - kinda like what YouTube is even doing. Right. - It's, it's picking the winners and losers based - on how Spotify has been doing that with - their algorithm for years. It's like - now getting to that earlier curation era again.

1:13:29 - So Right. I mean, the - the the difference is is if you look - at radio and TV, you had a program - director who would be like, yes, I bind - this show. This is good. Or this is - a good track, you know. - I live in LA. So an artist that's - trying to get their song onto K Rock - here, it's like, well, couldn't get K Rock. - So they end up with, like, a, - the local station who then gets the, - the local Yeah. Picks them up and that's - how you go where they do their local, - acts. I mean, - at the end of the day, they're still - all hustling. - No matter what, they're all still trying to - hustle, go like, who's controlling this? The difference - is now it's an algorithm that's controlling that. - Right. And so, you're trying to play the - algorithmic game of, okay, How do I convince - the computer to, give me a chance versus - a human? The human, you can get them - to give you a chance. Like, hey. I - like this person. Take them out. Yeah. Wine - and dine them. You can't do that at - the computer. There goes the human element.

1:14:23 - Yeah. Here's a - 20, you know, - feature me. So, you know, it's, it's like, - I'd I'd love the the new media show - to be available on Netflix. Right. And it's - really as simple as it's adding. It's just - metadata. Right. - And a person can go into their search - query and search for, - you know, - shows about - media or something like that. Right. And - you know, - it's just a different mindset. Right. And it's, - it's a mindset that built - the scale of YouTube. Right? - So I would hate for us to fall - back into an earlier era of how, - gatekeepers - gatekeep content based on their preferences - versus the user's preferences.

1:15:08 - So it's it's, you know, that's the tension - that I see in the market right now. - I think, I look at - Asia's, - Asia corpus win with Stope Rose. Her background's - in entertainment. So she's literally looking at this - as how do I turn this into an - entertainment distribution - or Jeffrey Haslett with the c suite, and - his background's in entertainment. And so they're looking - at this as - fast channels. They're looking at this as distribution - on TV. So they're creating this network effect - of media across not just - podcast, - YouTube, but as they both told me, the - technology, it's not so easy to create a - fast channel. We all think, like, alright, this - is easy to to aggregate shows and create - a fast channel.

1:15:54 - Before I joined, - rss.com, - I was working with a buddy who had - that whole concept. He's like, I knew fast - channels. Greg go source me the podcast so - I can create these fast channels. But the - technology around it, especially with with the advertising - side, is is not that easy. So there's - still a gatekeeping component. There's still a buy - in. So, Jeffrey, it's you pay $2,500 - to join his network. But by joining the - network, you now are business shows talking to - C suite. It's created a whole fast channel. - But - other networks other podcast networks I'm talking to - could all do that if they, a, knew - that medium, - were to hire someone to help them with - that media. So, like, you can increase your - distribution.

1:16:38 - But regardless of the increase of distribution, it - still then comes back to the marketing. - Once it's distributed, you still have to let - people know, hey. So, Rob, if you were - to tell people, listen to this show wherever - you consume any content you wanna consume. Oh, - I can go to Netflix and type this - in. Yes. Technically, that would be the dream, - but they still have to know. And and - it's like going to your Blockbuster back in - the day. Like, alright. I have to look - for this or I have to type this - in or know what I'm looking for. They - still have to remember your show or know - about your show, so it's still marketing your - show regardless of where it's consumed. Yeah. No. - Definitely, it's still the the challenge. - And having, you know, let's say, just give - an example, if we had, you know, 1,000,000 - video podcasts in Netflix today, - then that's exactly what the challenge is. And - how is Netflix going to gatekeep a million - video podcasts? Or how how are they even - gonna feature and promote that too is another - element of this. Owned and operated, where they - make their money most money, what's the economics - of it? I mean, everyone listening, you all - know we've seen this song and dance. It's - it's my own show. Of course, I'm gonna - promote my own show because the economics are - there as opposed to Rob's show, which maybe - be a better show than my show, but - I make more money on my show than - I will on Rob. So sorry, Rob. I - don't care if you have a better show.

1:17:55 - We're not gonna show you. And that's, that's - the gatekeeping no matter what. Right. Yeah. No, - that's that. That's very true. I built a, - a video podcast network on the windows media - center back when I worked at Microsoft. So - I took all the video podcasts that I - had in my zoom podcast - platform, which was about, I had about eleven, - twelve thousand video podcasts. Wow. Out of the, - out of the 25, 30,000 - RSS feeds that I had in the catalog. - And we built a, an app for windows - media center, which was the windows, - experience on televisions back in that, back in - that time era. - And, and so people could go into that - app and look for all the video podcasts, - and play it on their televisions.

1:18:35 - So, you know, that's, that's what comes back - in my mind about all this. Well, this - is, as we move into this, - yeah, into this new era of, HLS streaming, - because even back then we weren't doing HLS - streaming. It was all a download playback, even - on windows media center where all the other - content was all, all the TV shows and - movies were all playing off of HLS streaming, - even back in 2010. - So, you know, that's, what's really changed now - is that the distribution capability of podcasts now - is really evolved - into - direct competition with these existing - distribution platforms that we see today that are - dominating. - And so, you know, I think if podcasting - embraces podcasting two point zero and has the - alternative enclosures and is able to make, the - HLS streams available and alternative enclosures, then I - think that this opens this wide open to - being able to support all sorts of, apps - and all sorts of ecosystems - that will be more private type of distribution - options as well into individual apps and other - types of, consumption platforms - where what we're doing today with HLS is - very siloed to apple. Right. And, - and I'm not sure that that, is the - right choice for, you know, the podcast industry - to silo it like that. I mean, I - think what is it?

1:19:53 - My podcast is on HLS. You could consume - it on Apple video right now, but I - couldn't. I have a a I have a - a Tesla, so I can't actually consume my - own podcast - on my car if I wanted to listen - to it because right now, - for whatever reason, the Apple Podcast experience in - Tesla does not allow video, or I couldn't - watch it on my Apple TV if I - wanted to. So, like, it's funny to know, - like, even my own podcast, I can't consume - within the Apple ecosystem where I would normally - consume podcasts. But it does consume a separate - RSS feed with the audio in it. So - I've got a Tesla Tesla model three unless - they changed it.

1:20:34 - I know it's well, if you have a - separate RSS feed with just the audio. Oh, - gotcha. In a separate RSS feed with the - video, you can still access the show, but - yeah, in your Tesla, - the video experience is completely kind of wiped - out. Right. But I can't even listen to - it. Yeah. That's right. You can find, I - can find - the clip to actually exactly it won't play. - Right because they don't want people playing video - in the car yet that day's coming. - So, - hardware four car or do you have a - hardware three car or do you know, I - don't even know what that means. What's the - model year? '24 - model three. '24. Okay. Well, you could have, - the hardware four, which means that you're gonna - get unsupervised - full self driving in that car at some - point, which means which means you won't have - to pay attention to driving. You could watch - your video podcasts in the car and probably - turn that on. I've, I've, I've done that.

1:21:26 - It's fun when I get it, but now, - yeah. - Right. Well, Greg, it was great to have - you on the LUND media show. I don't - think you'd been on before, so no, Rob, - it's a pleasure. I got it now. I - mean, since you're part of two networks, - I gotta bring you on my show and - and we could talk about the the networks - that you've run and operated and and work - in. But yeah, it's it's interesting to see - where this is all going, where new media - is going, but from the perspective, not only - of arsys.com - and what we've got, but then my show - podcast network insights is just, it's, it's fun. - And I'm enjoying where the industry is taking - us. Yeah. Well, it's, it's gonna be rapidly - changing. - And, and I'm, I'm happy to see rss.com - really kind of being at the forefront of - this and building this out, things like that, - and really trying to support it and actively - participating in podcasting two point zero initiative and - trying to lead even on the, on the - AI labeling questions. Yeah. Alberto did an amazing - job on that, but we didn't even talk - about that, but yeah, it's, it's literally, how - do we create a standard for labeling? Well, - he's going to be on the show here - soon. So there you go. So of course - I have to get Alberto on the show - to talk about labeling.

1:22:33 - So, all right, Greg. Well, thank you so - much. And I appreciate everybody that's watching this - live, - today. I appreciate it. And you can get - this show - as an audio and video podcast. I'm, I'm - still not supporting HLS yet, but that day - is coming, - hopefully, - one way or another. - So, - so anyway, well, thank you so much and, - have a great rest of your week. - It's a short week this week. So Greg, - thanks. Have a good one. All right. Thank - you everybody. Bye.