Are Podcast Networks becoming Creator Networks? | Greg Wasserman #666

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- Welcome to the New Media Show with human

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- host and podcast hall of famer, Rob Greenfield.

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- Well, welcome to the Media Show again. This

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- is episode six sixty six. Are podcast networks

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- becoming

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- really more creator networks?

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- And has the audience

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- for online content that has been previously understood

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- as podcasting

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- getting redefined.

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- And we're we're gonna dive into that. Podcast

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- networks were originally built

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- for audio first space with the podcasting

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- industry, but audiences

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- have already moved the definition

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- of a podcast

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- beyond audio. Today, a podcast can be a

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- YouTube show, a Spotify video, an apple video

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- podcast, a live stream, a short clip, a

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- newsletter,

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- or related to a newsletter,

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- and part of a community or a creator

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- led media brand

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- that is a changing network model. Podcasting is

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- still important as a lane, but now it's

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- one format inside of a larger new media

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- ecosystem

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- is what I'm seeing right now.

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- It seems like the next generation of podcast

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- networks

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- may need to become creator networks built around

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- trust,

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- audience

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- relationships,

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- and the message

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- and some form of productization

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- to create monetization.

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- So and then AI transparency

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- and community and live experiences.

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- And so the whole landscape is evolving.

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- My name is Rob Greenlee, and I'm a

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- podcast hall of fame inductee, longtime new media

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- and podcasting executive.

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- This show covers the future of new media

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- and the creator economy, podcasting,

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- audio and video plus AI, AI content, and

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- even

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- AI licensing

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- of content now is increasingly,

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- coming to my vision here of what the

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- future is looking like. And I'm joined by

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- a terrific guest, Greg

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- Wasserman, who's the head of relationships

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- at rss.com,

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- as well as has his own podcast.

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- He hosts the podcast

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- network insight. So he's trying to drive clarity

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- to what's going on, trying to understand the

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- business of podcast networks. And I think it's

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- great to have you, Greg, on the show

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- here to talk about this interesting kind of

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- change topic. And I don't know if you're

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- feeling it too, but why don't you give

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- me a little bit of perspective on

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- on

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- what you think about where podcast networks are

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- today? And do you feel this

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- pull towards

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- it being redefined into something else now, like

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- a creator network?

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- Well, I mean, always good to chat with

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- you, Honored to join it in a in

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- a podcast, you know, hosting my own. It's

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- like, alright. We get to have these conversations

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- offline, but then to actually do it and

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- have everyone else listen, it's kind of fun.

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- It's interesting because when I think about the

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- answers so, yeah, I'm host of Podcast Network

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- Insights. I'm interviewing the heads of Podcast Networks.

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- And the basis of it was,

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- one, I'm seeing a lot of podcasters feel

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- that in order to grow, they need to

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- join a network. And so

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- if you don't know what networks exist, you're

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- gonna end up joining the names that you

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- and I both know about, which are media

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- companies, whether the iHeart, Sirius, and so forth.

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- But are those the right fit for these

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- podcasters

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- of all different sizes?

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- And so figured, hey. Let's go ahead and

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- understand the the stories for each of these

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- networks.

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- A lot of them are niche in their

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- own verticals, whether you've got the OGGN,

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- which is oil and gas

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- or, marketing podcast network, which is just marketing.

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- But you could find a fit for whatever

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- it may be. And and I think to

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- answer your question,

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- each network

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- is is answering the question because I start

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- every show, how do you describe describe podcast

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- networks? And each one has described it differently.

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- But there's a core to it, and the

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- core usually around,

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- community.

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- And now how they describe community is not

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- necessarily how we would be thinking, you know,

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- community.

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- It's more of a matter of like minded

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- shows, not necessarily the,

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- the the they're creating a community of these

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- shows. It's so it's like, if you and

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- I had the same kind of show, we

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- would not be interacting.

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- But in some networks, we are created that

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- interaction between the network. So I think each

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- one's just looking at it incredibly different. And

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- that's what I think is exciting about. So

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- if we look at new media and where

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- podcast networks are going,

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- they're all

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- trying to solve, in a sense, the same

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- issue.

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- How do we how do we grow?

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- How do we monetize? How do we create

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- a community?

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- The differences is each one of them is

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- looking at it as, are they background in

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- media sales? So they're looking at it from

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- a monetization. How do we make as much

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- money and help these shows grow, which then

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- becomes kind of like a a, a rep

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- firm.

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- You know, you've got community which is core

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- to it, where it's like, hey,

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- better together. So how do we just bring

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- us all together and and go from there?

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- And many are also, of course, you always

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- ask the question, where's video come in? Live

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- is becoming a big piece for a lot

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- of them. So I think there's no real

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- answer and it's evolving

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- than just a

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- group of shows that were just doing podcasting.

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- Yeah. I think it has kind of expanded

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- the the scope. And I think the entrance

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- of video in here has has really kinda

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- shaken everything up because I think when when

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- these podcast networks really the concept of them

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- over the last ten, twelve years

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- or so was really built around audio experiences.

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- Right? So in this concept of community, which

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- you've now added another layer to this conversation,

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- which is the community

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- inside of the network,

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- not the community that's being built outside of

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- the network. Right? So there's two communities that

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- could be being worked on here. Technically,

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- three if you add the the community of

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- the actual podcaster. Right? So the podcaster is

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- their their community.

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- The network

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- is the community of shows, and that the,

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- the network of, of those community of shows.

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- The audience too. I mean, the audience comes

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- into play here too. So if you have

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- a, a network that's

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- built around a common theme, right. Or a

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- mission or,

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- or, you know, like all the shows are

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- all around, you know, building human health and

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- things like that. If that's your overriding theme,

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- then all the shows that pile in here

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- are all about

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- building human health. Right. So that's a community

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- in a core itself because they all have

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- a common interest. Right.

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- But then that's going to drive a community

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- out there of audiences too.

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- So, you know, how does

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- the network get involved in kind of

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- balancing those two

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- elements here? Because the external stuff

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- or the audience side of it is

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- probably

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- as much or more important. And as you

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- look to the future, becoming increasingly important as

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- more and more shows shift towards more building,

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- more private communities,

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- that that are have subscriptions behind them and

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- things like that. As we kind of head

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- back to like what podcasting was in the

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- terminology anyway, of subscribe to my podcast. Right?

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- But now subscribe to a podcast means that

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- you're subscribing to a private community that you

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- maybe have to pay for. So let's just

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- talk about that a little bit.

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- I mean,

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- if I like, what we're talking right now,

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- what comes to mind is my conversation,

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- with Rachel from Nova,

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- Nova Entertainment, Nova Podcast Network, which is an

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- Australian based. And so I asked her, like,

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- hey, do you do anything from a community

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- standpoint? She's like, well, no one's ever really

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- asked. Like, our podcasters haven't really asked for

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- connection among each other. And so they're more

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- of, you know, Nova is kind of a

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- a a large media company, like a radio

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- entertainment company,

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- based in Australia. So they're looking specifically for

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- an Australian audience in the shows that would

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- be based for an Australian audience. So you

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- can aggregate

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- eight, nine, 10,000,000,

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- users that way. And then, of course, expand

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- it to more than just podcasting. But if

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- you look at Nova, they started off as

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- a media company. So media, just like in

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- iHeart, is a radio company.

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- I started with CBS and now it's Odyssey

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- radio company. They're all moving into

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- social

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- video because they realize it's where dollars are,

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- but now you're staffing up a different team

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- to leverage that.

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- But at the same time, those companies aren't

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- also thinking about what we described as a

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- community. Like, hey, how do I bring our

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- shows together

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- not just to sell them as a package

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- but so that they can learn from each

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- other. So that you and I, if we're

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- on your network, we're going, hey,

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- introduce Greg and Rob and let you guys

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- do cross promos, let you guys handle that

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- as opposed to the network that's gonna operate

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- them. Go, like, well, if you want to,

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- I could do the cross promos. So there's

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- operational sides to it that each network's looking

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- at, which would now you add in multiple

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- layers of media,

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- not just podcast, but you're looking at social,

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- you're looking at video, you're looking at live

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- that adds even more levels of complexity that

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- depending on the operational side of the network

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- and how they've set themselves up, maybe

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- something they don't do, or maybe it is

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- exactly what they're able to do. Yeah. I

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- think in some ways, we're going back to

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- somewhat of an earlier era of podcasting. If

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- we're gonna head down this path of, of

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- collaboration,

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- genre

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- collaboration between creators,

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- which we've been kind of running against for

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- a while because of people's feeling of, you

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- know, competition. Right? So

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- if there's another show out there that's

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- got the same topic or the same related

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- audience,

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- they want to hold on to that audience.

265
00:09:45.264 --> 00:09:46.485
- Right. So they don't

266
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- inherently

267
00:09:48.704 --> 00:09:50.865
- want to cooperate with a show that they

268
00:09:50.865 --> 00:09:53.365
- feel like could siphon audience from them. Right.

269
00:09:54.529 --> 00:09:56.690
- But are we heading back to a time

270
00:09:56.690 --> 00:09:58.389
- when we really need

271
00:09:58.769 --> 00:10:02.230
- to collaborate with other creators to build

272
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- a a bigger value equation to audiences?

273
00:10:06.210 --> 00:10:08.370
- I mean, if we're looking at what's old

274
00:10:08.370 --> 00:10:10.634
- is new or or if we look at

275
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- just the fact that

276
00:10:11.914 --> 00:10:15.034
- podcasting has moved into this new evolution and

277
00:10:15.034 --> 00:10:18.095
- we're we're asking what is a podcast. Right?

278
00:10:18.394 --> 00:10:19.914
- But if we're looking at what is a

279
00:10:19.914 --> 00:10:21.914
- podcast and it's being led by I think

280
00:10:21.914 --> 00:10:24.014
- we were talking in before we started recording,

281
00:10:24.230 --> 00:10:25.990
- and it's being led in a sense by

282
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- the media companies.

283
00:10:27.430 --> 00:10:29.350
- It's now the Hot Words, so we'll talk

284
00:10:29.350 --> 00:10:31.910
- about that. And and we'll call it,

285
00:10:32.309 --> 00:10:32.889
- you know,

286
00:10:33.269 --> 00:10:34.950
- Netflix had the deal, and they're doing a

287
00:10:34.950 --> 00:10:36.490
- big thing on podcasting,

288
00:10:37.454 --> 00:10:39.934
- Spotify with podcasting. And they're throughout the end

289
00:10:39.934 --> 00:10:41.615
- of the day, they're media companies and that's

290
00:10:41.615 --> 00:10:44.174
- how they're looking at this. So from our

291
00:10:44.174 --> 00:10:44.674
- standpoint,

292
00:10:45.214 --> 00:10:47.214
- if we know that they're being run as

293
00:10:47.214 --> 00:10:48.274
- media companies

294
00:10:49.855 --> 00:10:51.454
- wow. I just lost my train of thought

295
00:10:51.454 --> 00:10:51.954
- here.

296
00:10:53.159 --> 00:10:55.480
- If they're being run as media companies, then

297
00:10:55.480 --> 00:10:56.299
- they're controlling

298
00:10:57.559 --> 00:10:59.879
- how that shows up. And so your question

299
00:10:59.879 --> 00:11:00.379
- is,

300
00:11:01.240 --> 00:11:04.220
- are are are we creating this this

301
00:11:05.254 --> 00:11:07.575
- this connection of shows. But if the re

302
00:11:07.575 --> 00:11:09.254
- and run is media companies, we just have

303
00:11:09.254 --> 00:11:12.615
- to look at your standard media companies. Channel

304
00:11:12.615 --> 00:11:13.434
- two with,

305
00:11:14.054 --> 00:11:16.315
- two five seven thirty two, whatever,

306
00:11:16.950 --> 00:11:19.029
- country or state you're in, you know, your

307
00:11:19.029 --> 00:11:21.129
- core your core network channels,

308
00:11:21.750 --> 00:11:23.910
- they're all promoting their own shows on that

309
00:11:23.910 --> 00:11:26.649
- channel. So ABC is promoting their own shows.

310
00:11:26.710 --> 00:11:28.629
- NBC is promoting their own shows. Fox is

311
00:11:28.629 --> 00:11:30.309
- promoting their own shows. Like, those are in

312
00:11:30.309 --> 00:11:32.644
- a sense the TV networks. And that's exactly

313
00:11:32.644 --> 00:11:35.284
- how we're running things now. So it's ultimately

314
00:11:35.284 --> 00:11:37.444
- looking at are you a TV network, it's

315
00:11:37.444 --> 00:11:40.004
- a podcast network. It's just the media company

316
00:11:40.004 --> 00:11:41.784
- as its core. And so

317
00:11:42.485 --> 00:11:45.064
- a show that it's on, you know, the

318
00:11:45.284 --> 00:11:46.184
- the your network,

319
00:11:46.620 --> 00:11:48.539
- You guys are gonna all promote each other,

320
00:11:48.539 --> 00:11:49.039
- but

321
00:11:49.740 --> 00:11:51.980
- you would probably also promote shows outside of

322
00:11:51.980 --> 00:11:54.700
- your network just because that's the ecosystem that

323
00:11:54.700 --> 00:11:55.519
- you've created.

324
00:11:55.980 --> 00:11:58.539
- But in many cases, no, they're gonna keep

325
00:11:58.539 --> 00:12:01.335
- that ecosystem inside. You're never gonna hear a

326
00:12:01.654 --> 00:12:05.514
- ABC show promoted on NBC. That's that's blasphemy.

327
00:12:06.695 --> 00:12:08.375
- No. I remember when I was selling media

328
00:12:08.375 --> 00:12:09.735
- and we were like, hey, I could get

329
00:12:09.735 --> 00:12:12.774
- these media dollars to promote a universal movie

330
00:12:12.774 --> 00:12:14.535
- and I was working for CBS and they're

331
00:12:14.535 --> 00:12:16.980
- like, we don't want that. Like, we we

332
00:12:16.980 --> 00:12:19.639
- have to promote, you know, the Viacom or,

333
00:12:20.500 --> 00:12:22.980
- CBS stuff. And it's like, guys, dollars is

334
00:12:22.980 --> 00:12:24.500
- dollars. Yeah. But we don't wanna take those

335
00:12:24.500 --> 00:12:26.500
- people away. So it's to your point, we

336
00:12:26.500 --> 00:12:28.580
- don't wanna remove the audience. But if you're

337
00:12:28.580 --> 00:12:30.340
- treating it like a media company in that

338
00:12:30.340 --> 00:12:33.115
- regards, then, yes. If you're not treating it

339
00:12:33.115 --> 00:12:33.615
- as,

340
00:12:34.235 --> 00:12:36.154
- hold on. I can promote this. This is

341
00:12:36.154 --> 00:12:38.154
- good for my audience. This is good for

342
00:12:38.154 --> 00:12:40.554
- what I'm doing. Mhmm. Then you're not gonna

343
00:12:40.554 --> 00:12:42.095
- have that, that mindset.

344
00:12:42.634 --> 00:12:44.574
- And if you go back to the the

345
00:12:44.740 --> 00:12:47.700
- the models really that have aligned with what

346
00:12:47.700 --> 00:12:50.100
- you're talking about with the the the larger

347
00:12:50.100 --> 00:12:53.399
- media companies, is that oftentimes those shows are,

348
00:12:53.860 --> 00:12:55.940
- you know, probably a little bit more considered

349
00:12:55.940 --> 00:12:57.320
- to be owned and operated

350
00:12:57.625 --> 00:12:59.465
- for on, on the network. So you do

351
00:12:59.465 --> 00:13:01.644
- have this spectrum, right? Of some networks

352
00:13:02.024 --> 00:13:02.845
- are aggregating,

353
00:13:03.945 --> 00:13:07.144
- independent creators, and then other ones are creating

354
00:13:07.144 --> 00:13:08.125
- a certain percentage

355
00:13:08.825 --> 00:13:11.065
- of shows that are considered to be owned

356
00:13:11.065 --> 00:13:13.085
- and operated by, by the network,

357
00:13:14.220 --> 00:13:16.080
- that re you know, really fund

358
00:13:16.460 --> 00:13:19.019
- the development of it and, and really take

359
00:13:19.019 --> 00:13:21.019
- care of the whole thing and are owned

360
00:13:21.019 --> 00:13:23.759
- by the network. And then there's other shows

361
00:13:23.899 --> 00:13:24.639
- on the network

362
00:13:25.100 --> 00:13:25.600
- that

363
00:13:26.004 --> 00:13:28.725
- are really run by independent creators that had

364
00:13:28.725 --> 00:13:31.684
- just have a licensing deal. Yeah. You know,

365
00:13:31.684 --> 00:13:33.924
- like a rev share deal with, with those,

366
00:13:33.924 --> 00:13:35.365
- those partners. You know, I used to work

367
00:13:35.365 --> 00:13:37.365
- at podcast one years ago and that's what

368
00:13:37.365 --> 00:13:38.710
- we did. You know, I I think we

369
00:13:38.710 --> 00:13:40.970
- had like 12 owned and operated shows

370
00:13:41.509 --> 00:13:43.370
- and, and like 180,

371
00:13:44.470 --> 00:13:46.870
- you know, rev share shows, right? That ones

372
00:13:46.870 --> 00:13:49.110
- that weren't really produced by us, but maybe

373
00:13:49.110 --> 00:13:51.289
- had a, a partial production

374
00:13:51.909 --> 00:13:52.889
- contract, but

375
00:13:53.554 --> 00:13:55.634
- most of them were independently produced and all

376
00:13:55.634 --> 00:13:56.995
- that kind of stuff. So you have that

377
00:13:56.995 --> 00:13:58.615
- spectrum in here too, that,

378
00:13:59.875 --> 00:14:01.095
- that really kind of,

379
00:14:02.274 --> 00:14:03.955
- makes it, you know, if it's owned and

380
00:14:03.955 --> 00:14:06.929
- operated, you're more likely to do cross promotion

381
00:14:06.990 --> 00:14:07.490
- across

382
00:14:07.870 --> 00:14:10.529
- the network. Right. But if you're independent show

383
00:14:10.669 --> 00:14:13.309
- and all those creators are competing with each

384
00:14:13.309 --> 00:14:15.470
- other for audience, it's a little bit of

385
00:14:15.470 --> 00:14:18.129
- a tougher ask to get them to cooperate

386
00:14:18.190 --> 00:14:20.269
- with each other. And I think, you know,

387
00:14:20.269 --> 00:14:21.409
- is there a

388
00:14:22.054 --> 00:14:24.235
- new reason for doing that now?

389
00:14:25.334 --> 00:14:27.995
- That's, that's really, I think the bigger question.

390
00:14:28.214 --> 00:14:30.554
- I think if we go back to this

391
00:14:30.615 --> 00:14:32.554
- model of the media companies,

392
00:14:33.414 --> 00:14:36.529
- what are media companies actually focused on It's

393
00:14:36.529 --> 00:14:37.029
- revenue,

394
00:14:37.649 --> 00:14:41.090
- and revenue and from the monetization of ads

395
00:14:41.090 --> 00:14:42.790
- and sponsorships and,

396
00:14:43.889 --> 00:14:45.190
- the stuff I used to sell.

397
00:14:45.730 --> 00:14:48.129
- But the joys of at least the the

398
00:14:48.129 --> 00:14:49.809
- guests I have on my show is they're

399
00:14:49.809 --> 00:14:51.985
- not all monetized in that way. I think

400
00:14:51.985 --> 00:14:55.024
- the creator economy, but just the the economy

401
00:14:55.024 --> 00:14:57.985
- as it's as a whole, doesn't lend itself

402
00:14:57.985 --> 00:15:00.065
- to the only way you can make money

403
00:15:00.065 --> 00:15:01.605
- is through ads and sponsorships.

404
00:15:02.065 --> 00:15:03.605
- Correct. I look at

405
00:15:04.470 --> 00:15:07.509
- Jason Falls and the marketing podcast network. You've

406
00:15:07.509 --> 00:15:10.470
- got an aggregation of 80 marketing shows. They

407
00:15:10.470 --> 00:15:12.709
- don't do a lot from a monetization of

408
00:15:12.709 --> 00:15:13.209
- ads,

409
00:15:13.750 --> 00:15:16.825
- but the fact that these shows are heads

410
00:15:16.825 --> 00:15:18.125
- of marketing departments,

411
00:15:18.904 --> 00:15:21.964
- marketing experts, so they're able to get clients

412
00:15:22.184 --> 00:15:24.664
- collaborate from a understanding of working,

413
00:15:26.664 --> 00:15:29.384
- unique industry knowledge. That way, they're making more

414
00:15:29.384 --> 00:15:29.884
- money

415
00:15:30.370 --> 00:15:32.529
- that than they would on ads. Now talking

416
00:15:32.529 --> 00:15:34.129
- with Jason, I'm like, you guys should probably

417
00:15:34.129 --> 00:15:35.429
- be doing more ads.

418
00:15:36.049 --> 00:15:37.269
- Not just because,

419
00:15:38.929 --> 00:15:40.689
- that is that is a revenue arm that

420
00:15:40.689 --> 00:15:43.009
- you can look at, but you're aggregating 80

421
00:15:43.009 --> 00:15:45.429
- shows that are focused on just marketing.

422
00:15:46.115 --> 00:15:48.195
- Immediate buyer out there should be saying, hold

423
00:15:48.195 --> 00:15:50.514
- on. I know the volume is low, but

424
00:15:50.514 --> 00:15:53.714
- the target audience is incredibly the key people

425
00:15:53.714 --> 00:15:54.375
- I want.

426
00:15:54.754 --> 00:15:57.315
- And that becomes the mismatch between how do

427
00:15:57.315 --> 00:15:58.889
- you get in front of buyers, what I

428
00:15:58.889 --> 00:16:01.529
- used to do, and a network like Jason's

429
00:16:01.529 --> 00:16:02.970
- where it's like, I don't have the time

430
00:16:02.970 --> 00:16:04.370
- or energy to go out there and try

431
00:16:04.370 --> 00:16:06.170
- and fight with these agencies and these media

432
00:16:06.170 --> 00:16:08.269
- buyers. So I'm gonna focus on the monetization

433
00:16:08.649 --> 00:16:09.149
- of

434
00:16:09.529 --> 00:16:11.445
- how do we do other things beyond just

435
00:16:11.524 --> 00:16:13.684
- ads. And I think that is why you're

436
00:16:13.684 --> 00:16:15.785
- able to do a lot more with

437
00:16:16.644 --> 00:16:19.684
- monetizing your audience not just with podcasts and

438
00:16:19.684 --> 00:16:20.184
- sponsorships,

439
00:16:20.884 --> 00:16:22.485
- but you throw in your YouTube, you throw

440
00:16:22.485 --> 00:16:24.565
- in live, you throw in courses, you throw

441
00:16:24.565 --> 00:16:26.504
- in whatever it is you want to monetize.

442
00:16:27.205 --> 00:16:28.779
- You just have to find the right network

443
00:16:28.779 --> 00:16:29.440
- that that,

444
00:16:29.980 --> 00:16:31.919
- that, that is their model. Right.

445
00:16:32.379 --> 00:16:34.959
- Yeah. It's interesting. I, I didn't notice that

446
00:16:35.100 --> 00:16:35.839
- Jay Shetty,

447
00:16:36.299 --> 00:16:39.039
- basically pulled his show out of

448
00:16:40.004 --> 00:16:40.904
- out of YouTube

449
00:16:42.164 --> 00:16:44.485
- and going all in on the, on the

450
00:16:44.485 --> 00:16:44.985
- podcast,

451
00:16:45.285 --> 00:16:45.785
- Spotify.

452
00:16:46.404 --> 00:16:49.365
- Yeah. Right. Right. And in the Netflix deal,

453
00:16:49.365 --> 00:16:52.485
- which it's really an interesting deal that's going

454
00:16:52.485 --> 00:16:54.664
- on there with Netflix. And

455
00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:57.299
- I wonder if they're going to

456
00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:01.440
- going to actually last doing this, because if

457
00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:03.200
- you think about, you know, I think in

458
00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:05.059
- the early years, a couple of years ago,

459
00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:07.519
- Joe Rogan did the same thing. He, he

460
00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:10.820
- basically pulled himself out of the RSS side

461
00:17:11.044 --> 00:17:12.424
- and went all Spotify.

462
00:17:12.724 --> 00:17:13.625
- Right. And

463
00:17:14.085 --> 00:17:16.964
- eventually they kind of bailed on that. Right.

464
00:17:16.964 --> 00:17:19.284
- And they went back to open distribution again.

465
00:17:19.284 --> 00:17:21.284
- And then here we see it cycle through

466
00:17:21.284 --> 00:17:21.784
- again,

467
00:17:22.325 --> 00:17:24.804
- and it's happening through a Netflix, which in

468
00:17:24.804 --> 00:17:25.704
- a lot of ways,

469
00:17:26.509 --> 00:17:28.829
- Netflix, I would throw in the bucket of

470
00:17:28.829 --> 00:17:29.649
- being a network

471
00:17:30.909 --> 00:17:32.990
- because they have their own intros. They're media

472
00:17:32.990 --> 00:17:33.889
- company. Exactly.

473
00:17:34.269 --> 00:17:36.049
- And they're, they're also,

474
00:17:36.829 --> 00:17:39.250
- licensing on rev share deals. I'm sure

475
00:17:39.595 --> 00:17:42.875
- with external creators or their licensing right content

476
00:17:42.875 --> 00:17:44.955
- into their platform. I mean, I don't know

477
00:17:44.955 --> 00:17:46.475
- how many old movies you see in there,

478
00:17:46.475 --> 00:17:47.535
- but there's a lot.

479
00:17:48.315 --> 00:17:49.295
- So you can see

480
00:17:49.674 --> 00:17:51.995
- this, you know, what's happening with Netflix is

481
00:17:51.995 --> 00:17:53.375
- becoming probably the,

482
00:17:54.049 --> 00:17:56.289
- the largest. Well, I don't know if the

483
00:17:56.289 --> 00:17:58.849
- largest, probably YouTube is the largest network at

484
00:17:58.849 --> 00:17:59.909
- this point. Yeah.

485
00:18:00.289 --> 00:18:03.089
- But, but this whole Netflix model and how

486
00:18:03.089 --> 00:18:04.470
- they're leaning into

487
00:18:05.009 --> 00:18:06.630
- independent creator content

488
00:18:07.355 --> 00:18:09.934
- is, is quite a brand shift for them.

489
00:18:10.474 --> 00:18:13.115
- And so, you know, are you factoring in

490
00:18:13.115 --> 00:18:14.575
- what you're doing with covering,

491
00:18:15.275 --> 00:18:16.255
- podcast networks

492
00:18:16.715 --> 00:18:19.035
- into expanding it even into, let's say,

493
00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:21.100
- a network like a Netflix?

494
00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:23.559
- I would love to. I mean, the show

495
00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:24.279
- has no,

496
00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:26.940
- Balance. Right?

497
00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:28.840
- I mean, in a sense, like, it you

498
00:18:28.840 --> 00:18:31.000
- have to be a network define a network.

499
00:18:31.000 --> 00:18:32.700
- Like, I've got shows in there.

500
00:18:33.434 --> 00:18:35.515
- I look at Becky Mollenkamp who had on,

501
00:18:35.515 --> 00:18:37.454
- which is the feminist podcast collective

502
00:18:38.075 --> 00:18:39.294
- and, like, it's called

503
00:18:39.835 --> 00:18:41.835
- it's technically a network, but she calls it

504
00:18:41.835 --> 00:18:42.494
- a collective.

505
00:18:43.275 --> 00:18:45.214
- Everyone hosts on their own platform

506
00:18:45.515 --> 00:18:47.355
- and it's more of just a community that

507
00:18:47.355 --> 00:18:50.869
- she's brought together that creates this educational environment

508
00:18:50.929 --> 00:18:51.429
- for

509
00:18:51.809 --> 00:18:53.589
- a value based,

510
00:18:54.609 --> 00:18:56.549
- collective of shows. And

511
00:18:57.009 --> 00:18:59.009
- and that is a very different business model

512
00:18:59.009 --> 00:19:01.329
- and different network model than as you and

513
00:19:01.329 --> 00:19:03.269
- I are describing right now about a Netflix.

514
00:19:03.329 --> 00:19:03.829
- But,

515
00:19:04.545 --> 00:19:06.625
- I'll have iHeart on there, I had Nova

516
00:19:06.625 --> 00:19:08.465
- on there. So, like, they're all running different

517
00:19:08.465 --> 00:19:08.965
- kind

518
00:19:09.345 --> 00:19:10.565
- of business models.

519
00:19:11.025 --> 00:19:13.664
- And what defines success is one of the

520
00:19:13.664 --> 00:19:15.664
- questions that people ask me. It's like, hey,

521
00:19:15.664 --> 00:19:17.205
- how do they define this success?

522
00:19:17.750 --> 00:19:20.230
- Each person is gonna define success completely different.

523
00:19:20.230 --> 00:19:22.230
- Netflix right now is looking at it. A,

524
00:19:22.230 --> 00:19:23.049
- they're stockholders,

525
00:19:23.750 --> 00:19:25.830
- you know. We're looking at it from an

526
00:19:25.830 --> 00:19:28.170
- industry standpoint. How many times in their

527
00:19:28.950 --> 00:19:31.954
- quarterly report are they mentioning the word podcast?

528
00:19:32.335 --> 00:19:34.095
- And then we're talking about that from an

529
00:19:34.095 --> 00:19:37.054
- industry standpoint. But what defines a podcast? Well,

530
00:19:37.054 --> 00:19:39.775
- right now, podcasting is hot. So, of course,

531
00:19:39.775 --> 00:19:41.154
- they're gonna call that out.

532
00:19:41.454 --> 00:19:43.855
- Well, and they're playing into that Yes. That

533
00:19:43.855 --> 00:19:45.855
- kind of kind of narrative that I leaded

534
00:19:45.855 --> 00:19:49.000
- into is that is it that the term

535
00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:50.619
- podcast is now really

536
00:19:50.920 --> 00:19:53.420
- more appropriate to how the audience views

537
00:19:53.799 --> 00:19:54.539
- this content.

538
00:19:55.320 --> 00:19:58.140
- And, and it's less of a RSS,

539
00:19:58.440 --> 00:19:59.340
- you know, based

540
00:19:59.804 --> 00:20:02.544
- distribution methodology. It's more about what the audience

541
00:20:02.684 --> 00:20:03.585
- thinks it is,

542
00:20:04.125 --> 00:20:05.825
- is what's defining it.

543
00:20:06.524 --> 00:20:08.684
- But the whole concept of a collective, like

544
00:20:08.684 --> 00:20:10.845
- you were just talking about is an interesting

545
00:20:10.845 --> 00:20:11.825
- one because it's,

546
00:20:12.230 --> 00:20:13.769
- it's almost like a subgroup

547
00:20:14.070 --> 00:20:16.170
- of a podcast network. Right? It's

548
00:20:16.710 --> 00:20:18.630
- it has a lot of the elements of

549
00:20:18.630 --> 00:20:20.950
- a podcast network, but yet at the same

550
00:20:20.950 --> 00:20:22.089
- time, maybe it's

551
00:20:22.470 --> 00:20:24.470
- it's a concept that's a little bit more

552
00:20:24.470 --> 00:20:25.130
- of a

553
00:20:25.670 --> 00:20:26.170
- collaboration

554
00:20:27.164 --> 00:20:27.664
- network.

555
00:20:27.965 --> 00:20:29.644
- So would you say that that's true based

556
00:20:29.644 --> 00:20:31.565
- on what your understanding of what a collective

557
00:20:31.565 --> 00:20:32.945
- is versus a network?

558
00:20:34.445 --> 00:20:35.985
- How she describes it

559
00:20:36.445 --> 00:20:38.605
- and how we would describe it, I think,

560
00:20:38.605 --> 00:20:39.105
- are

561
00:20:39.569 --> 00:20:42.357
- almost the same. Debate. Right? Well, no. Not

562
00:20:42.357 --> 00:20:44.834
- not almost the same, but, like, how you

563
00:20:44.834 --> 00:20:47.312
- would describe what is a podcast network and

564
00:20:47.312 --> 00:20:49.789
- how Becky is describing her collective as a

565
00:20:49.789 --> 00:20:52.576
- podcast network. That's what I love. Like, every

566
00:20:52.576 --> 00:20:54.434
- person has answered the question different.

567
00:20:54.995 --> 00:20:56.835
- Part of it is based on their background.

568
00:20:56.835 --> 00:20:58.134
- Part of it is is,

569
00:20:59.315 --> 00:21:02.355
- what they view a network to be even

570
00:21:02.355 --> 00:21:04.195
- if they're not operating in as the same

571
00:21:04.195 --> 00:21:05.335
- way that they would,

572
00:21:05.715 --> 00:21:06.775
- answer that question.

573
00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:10.200
- But I truly believe they're all looking at

574
00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:11.339
- it as it's

575
00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:12.460
- a it's a

576
00:21:12.759 --> 00:21:14.619
- aggregation of shows,

577
00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:16.460
- and

578
00:21:16.759 --> 00:21:19.480
- how they operate is very differently. Whether it's

579
00:21:19.480 --> 00:21:20.700
- a production company

580
00:21:21.134 --> 00:21:21.634
- that

581
00:21:22.174 --> 00:21:24.494
- ultimately is running a network, which I think

582
00:21:24.494 --> 00:21:26.734
- more production companies should be operating as in

583
00:21:26.734 --> 00:21:29.375
- networks or at least production companies should be

584
00:21:29.375 --> 00:21:32.335
- partnering with networks because, let's be honest, you

585
00:21:32.335 --> 00:21:34.569
- and I both know, if you're doing a

586
00:21:34.569 --> 00:21:35.069
- podcast

587
00:21:35.369 --> 00:21:37.549
- and you're working with a production company,

588
00:21:38.089 --> 00:21:39.929
- well, the only way you keep paying that

589
00:21:39.929 --> 00:21:41.609
- production company is if you grow and if

590
00:21:41.609 --> 00:21:43.289
- that production company is not there to do

591
00:21:43.289 --> 00:21:45.049
- your marketing for you and you still always,

592
00:21:45.049 --> 00:21:46.909
- no matter what, have to do that marketing,

593
00:21:47.154 --> 00:21:48.914
- that production company should probably go like, hey,

594
00:21:48.914 --> 00:21:51.075
- let me go find who these networks are

595
00:21:51.075 --> 00:21:53.075
- based on the shows I have and go,

596
00:21:53.075 --> 00:21:54.755
- hey, I got this I got this,

597
00:21:55.154 --> 00:21:56.055
- Farm League,

598
00:21:56.835 --> 00:21:59.714
- podcaster here that I'm starting to starting to

599
00:21:59.714 --> 00:22:01.869
- do my show with and and you should

600
00:22:01.869 --> 00:22:03.549
- look at it. Right? Like, there's so much

601
00:22:03.549 --> 00:22:04.450
- more opportunities

602
00:22:04.910 --> 00:22:06.210
- are wrong across

603
00:22:06.669 --> 00:22:08.429
- the industry that we could look at beyond

604
00:22:08.429 --> 00:22:08.929
- just

605
00:22:09.630 --> 00:22:12.049
- how do we make money at a ad

606
00:22:12.109 --> 00:22:12.609
- supported,

607
00:22:13.150 --> 00:22:13.650
- medium.

608
00:22:14.429 --> 00:22:14.929
- Yeah.

609
00:22:15.454 --> 00:22:17.375
- As we look to the future of this,

610
00:22:17.375 --> 00:22:18.595
- I you know, this

611
00:22:18.974 --> 00:22:22.095
- this kind of tension that exists between independent

612
00:22:22.095 --> 00:22:25.134
- creators considering joining a network or being a

613
00:22:25.134 --> 00:22:27.454
- part of something like that, I kinda feel

614
00:22:27.454 --> 00:22:29.535
- it in my my own work with with

615
00:22:29.535 --> 00:22:31.740
- networks is that a lot of creators are

616
00:22:31.740 --> 00:22:32.320
- kind of

617
00:22:33.019 --> 00:22:33.519
- unsure

618
00:22:33.820 --> 00:22:34.320
- about

619
00:22:34.700 --> 00:22:37.980
- whether or not there's enough value to make

620
00:22:37.980 --> 00:22:40.160
- a commitment to a to a network. But

621
00:22:40.539 --> 00:22:41.759
- in some ways, there's

622
00:22:42.059 --> 00:22:44.559
- so little downside to doing it that it's

623
00:22:45.019 --> 00:22:45.519
- it's

624
00:22:46.275 --> 00:22:48.755
- it sometimes feels like it's trivial that they

625
00:22:48.755 --> 00:22:49.894
- decide not to.

626
00:22:51.075 --> 00:22:52.914
- But but I guess it's kind of a

627
00:22:52.914 --> 00:22:55.815
- personal choice thing. So how would you answer

628
00:22:56.035 --> 00:22:58.275
- somebody that's, like, been doing a show for

629
00:22:58.275 --> 00:22:59.575
- two or three years and

630
00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:01.839
- and is trying to decide if they're gonna

631
00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:04.400
- join this or that network or a collective

632
00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:05.539
- or something like that.

633
00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:06.799
- What would you,

634
00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:08.259
- advise them

635
00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:10.740
- as a as a method for

636
00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:13.619
- choosing whether or not to join a particular

637
00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:14.180
- network?

638
00:23:15.015 --> 00:23:17.494
- I always say understand your why. I think,

639
00:23:17.734 --> 00:23:19.015
- one of the things I've got and I'm

640
00:23:19.015 --> 00:23:21.115
- working on from a training based on this

641
00:23:21.174 --> 00:23:23.494
- is, if you understand your why of why

642
00:23:23.494 --> 00:23:25.974
- you're podcasting, therefore, how you want us to

643
00:23:25.974 --> 00:23:28.474
- make money doing it. So, if,

644
00:23:29.480 --> 00:23:32.119
- if I take take Jason's in the marketing

645
00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:34.200
- podcast network, I'm like, I'm not in this

646
00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:36.600
- to make money on sponsorships and ads. I'm

647
00:23:36.600 --> 00:23:39.000
- in this to be around a group of,

648
00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:40.779
- like, minded marketing shows,

649
00:23:41.505 --> 00:23:42.005
- then

650
00:23:42.464 --> 00:23:44.065
- why wouldn't I join this? Now the only

651
00:23:44.065 --> 00:23:46.644
- reason you wouldn't maybe wanna join this is

652
00:23:46.945 --> 00:23:48.884
- you would then have to change your host,

653
00:23:49.424 --> 00:23:52.644
- move to the hosting platform that Jason's operating

654
00:23:52.865 --> 00:23:54.419
- out of, and you may be like, oh,

655
00:23:54.419 --> 00:23:56.659
- that's too much work. Yes. That saves me

656
00:23:56.659 --> 00:23:58.819
- some money on the hosting cost fees, but

657
00:23:58.819 --> 00:24:00.259
- the work that I have to go through

658
00:24:00.259 --> 00:24:02.659
- to change there isn't worth it. And so

659
00:24:02.659 --> 00:24:05.240
- maybe that's something you'd wanna stay independent on.

660
00:24:05.380 --> 00:24:07.195
- So you could look at another network, like

661
00:24:07.195 --> 00:24:08.955
- I said, like Becky's where you don't have

662
00:24:08.955 --> 00:24:10.654
- to change hosts and go like, alright,

663
00:24:10.955 --> 00:24:13.115
- where's the independence that I get? Where's the

664
00:24:13.115 --> 00:24:15.455
- operational side that I get? Where's the opportunities

665
00:24:15.515 --> 00:24:17.195
- that I get? And what is it I'm

666
00:24:17.195 --> 00:24:18.414
- actually looking for?

667
00:24:18.795 --> 00:24:20.015
- If you look at our

668
00:24:20.474 --> 00:24:20.974
- quintessential

669
00:24:21.275 --> 00:24:21.775
- iHeart,

670
00:24:22.230 --> 00:24:24.150
- why would I go join iHeart? Well, I

671
00:24:24.150 --> 00:24:26.549
- know they're gonna inject nine minutes of ads

672
00:24:26.549 --> 00:24:28.869
- because they have a high ad load. That's

673
00:24:28.869 --> 00:24:31.269
- where they make their money. Their contracts are

674
00:24:31.269 --> 00:24:33.269
- volume based. So they're trying to get as

675
00:24:33.269 --> 00:24:35.029
- many shows as in that network. Because the

676
00:24:35.029 --> 00:24:36.710
- more net shows in there means the more

677
00:24:36.710 --> 00:24:38.845
- impressions, which means they're able to sell more

678
00:24:38.845 --> 00:24:39.964
- because at the end of the day, it's

679
00:24:39.964 --> 00:24:41.825
- all about the ad dollars there.

680
00:24:42.204 --> 00:24:44.285
- They're not in there from a community standpoint,

681
00:24:44.285 --> 00:24:46.845
- so good luck actually meeting other podcasters on

682
00:24:46.845 --> 00:24:49.404
- that network. They're not collaborating on that from

683
00:24:49.404 --> 00:24:50.224
- what I gather.

684
00:24:50.869 --> 00:24:52.789
- I've got Nathan coming up on the show

685
00:24:52.789 --> 00:24:54.789
- but from when I gather, like, that is

686
00:24:54.789 --> 00:24:56.950
- not their their core. If I go back

687
00:24:56.950 --> 00:24:57.590
- to what,

688
00:24:58.150 --> 00:25:00.390
- Rachel said at Nova, like, that is not

689
00:25:00.390 --> 00:25:02.009
- what they're doing. So, some shows

690
00:25:02.309 --> 00:25:04.630
- or some networks aren't here, like, we just

691
00:25:04.630 --> 00:25:07.115
- want more shows. More shows means more inventory

692
00:25:07.115 --> 00:25:08.714
- I can go sell, which means I've got

693
00:25:08.714 --> 00:25:12.315
- buying power to get better CPMs, to get

694
00:25:12.315 --> 00:25:13.134
- better targeting,

695
00:25:13.674 --> 00:25:14.654
- fulfill campaigns.

696
00:25:15.434 --> 00:25:17.515
- And and so to answer your question, yeah,

697
00:25:17.515 --> 00:25:19.275
- it really depends on what you want to

698
00:25:19.275 --> 00:25:20.970
- do, what are you trying to do.

699
00:25:21.849 --> 00:25:23.769
- And too many are also and I think

700
00:25:23.769 --> 00:25:25.849
- we do this as an industry not just

701
00:25:25.849 --> 00:25:27.710
- as podcasting but just as a

702
00:25:28.409 --> 00:25:29.869
- marketing media industry,

703
00:25:30.569 --> 00:25:32.730
- from being in this for twenty years. The

704
00:25:32.730 --> 00:25:35.289
- cool and sexy thing is to make money

705
00:25:35.289 --> 00:25:36.109
- from ads.

706
00:25:36.565 --> 00:25:38.005
- You know what I mean? If I told

707
00:25:38.005 --> 00:25:40.565
- you, Rob, that Airbnb was sponsoring your show,

708
00:25:40.565 --> 00:25:42.484
- you'd feel that'd be I'd be able to

709
00:25:42.484 --> 00:25:44.005
- go to coffee table and go, like, oh,

710
00:25:44.005 --> 00:25:46.325
- yeah. I've got a podcast and Airbnb pays

711
00:25:46.325 --> 00:25:47.285
- $3,000

712
00:25:47.285 --> 00:25:48.825
- to sponsor my podcast.

713
00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:51.840
- But if you made a $100 because you

714
00:25:51.840 --> 00:25:53.920
- were able to sell a couple clients and

715
00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:55.600
- whatever it was you were doing or the

716
00:25:55.600 --> 00:25:57.519
- SaaS you were doing, like, that would be

717
00:25:57.519 --> 00:26:00.320
- a lot more financial benefits to you than

718
00:26:00.320 --> 00:26:01.360
- a $3,000

719
00:26:01.360 --> 00:26:01.860
- sponsorship.

720
00:26:02.315 --> 00:26:04.315
- But most people are thinking the cool sexy

721
00:26:04.315 --> 00:26:06.634
- ego of having a sponsor by x y

722
00:26:06.634 --> 00:26:09.115
- and z as opposed to hold on, how

723
00:26:09.115 --> 00:26:10.414
- else could I make money

724
00:26:11.115 --> 00:26:12.414
- not having a sponsor?

725
00:26:12.795 --> 00:26:14.234
- And so you really have to ask your

726
00:26:14.234 --> 00:26:16.599
- answer yourself, like, why am I joining in

727
00:26:16.599 --> 00:26:18.839
- network? What am I trying to accomplish? What's

728
00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:20.619
- the value in this for me? Mhmm.

729
00:26:21.160 --> 00:26:23.000
- Yeah. And I think if you'll, like, layer

730
00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:25.160
- on top of this as well, there there's

731
00:26:25.160 --> 00:26:27.559
- another component too is that I don't know

732
00:26:27.559 --> 00:26:29.980
- if you remember back to the earlier era

733
00:26:30.119 --> 00:26:30.859
- of media,

734
00:26:32.294 --> 00:26:35.654
- when the when when when the network, right,

735
00:26:35.654 --> 00:26:38.534
- was really in front of people in a

736
00:26:38.534 --> 00:26:39.515
- big way. Right?

737
00:26:40.214 --> 00:26:42.214
- Course, that was back in the era of,

738
00:26:42.855 --> 00:26:45.275
- fewer choice. Right? There were fewer networks.

739
00:26:45.740 --> 00:26:47.119
- So it made more sense

740
00:26:47.580 --> 00:26:50.160
- for these big, big media companies like ABC,

741
00:26:50.220 --> 00:26:51.359
- CBS, NBC,

742
00:26:51.900 --> 00:26:53.359
- to really brand themselves

743
00:26:54.140 --> 00:26:54.640
- as

744
00:26:54.940 --> 00:26:57.119
- a place to get certain shows

745
00:26:58.075 --> 00:27:00.095
- where we're in the era of the shows

746
00:27:00.315 --> 00:27:02.174
- are more important than the network.

747
00:27:02.715 --> 00:27:05.275
- And I kinda wonder if, you know, some

748
00:27:05.275 --> 00:27:07.195
- of that old media model is gonna come

749
00:27:07.195 --> 00:27:08.414
- back into play, but

750
00:27:08.795 --> 00:27:11.055
- I think because there's so many networks

751
00:27:11.529 --> 00:27:14.250
- that exist today, that we may never get

752
00:27:14.250 --> 00:27:15.470
- back to that we're

753
00:27:16.089 --> 00:27:17.390
- promoting the network

754
00:27:18.250 --> 00:27:19.069
- in relation.

755
00:27:19.369 --> 00:27:21.930
- So I would say probably it matters to

756
00:27:21.930 --> 00:27:22.890
- Netflix. Right.

757
00:27:23.369 --> 00:27:25.369
- And it matters to YouTube, but those may

758
00:27:25.369 --> 00:27:27.345
- be the exception, not the rule. Right.

759
00:27:28.544 --> 00:27:30.464
- But more broadly, do you see us coming

760
00:27:30.464 --> 00:27:32.065
- back into a time when it makes sense

761
00:27:32.065 --> 00:27:34.804
- to promote the the brand of the network?

762
00:27:36.464 --> 00:27:39.525
- And what where Jeremy Westfall from GZN

763
00:27:39.904 --> 00:27:41.904
- on, and that was kind of one of

764
00:27:41.904 --> 00:27:42.484
- the conversations

765
00:27:42.829 --> 00:27:45.730
- he brought up. It's the branding of GZN,

766
00:27:46.029 --> 00:27:46.529
- GJN,

767
00:27:47.309 --> 00:27:49.150
- and just thinking about, you know, some of

768
00:27:49.230 --> 00:27:50.589
- what is it? I was listening to a

769
00:27:50.589 --> 00:27:51.730
- Pineapple Street,

770
00:27:52.109 --> 00:27:53.569
- podcast earlier today.

771
00:27:54.269 --> 00:27:56.829
- Doesn't exist anymore, but you knew what kind

772
00:27:56.829 --> 00:27:59.715
- of shows Pineapple Street would produce. And so

773
00:27:59.715 --> 00:28:03.075
- having that Pineapple Street branding or Jeremy's case,

774
00:28:03.075 --> 00:28:05.075
- their branding on it means, like, I know

775
00:28:05.075 --> 00:28:07.315
- what this network value is. I know the

776
00:28:07.315 --> 00:28:09.095
- kind of content it's putting out.

777
00:28:09.634 --> 00:28:10.134
- And

778
00:28:10.755 --> 00:28:12.515
- and so I think you see that with

779
00:28:13.570 --> 00:28:14.850
- you know what's you know the kind of

780
00:28:14.850 --> 00:28:16.869
- shows that Hulu is gonna have. Right?

781
00:28:17.410 --> 00:28:18.850
- If you look at Disney back in the

782
00:28:18.850 --> 00:28:19.910
- day, like, an emblem

783
00:28:20.450 --> 00:28:22.210
- would not be the same kind of stuff

784
00:28:22.210 --> 00:28:23.509
- as a Disney entertainment

785
00:28:24.210 --> 00:28:25.430
- versus a touchstone.

786
00:28:25.785 --> 00:28:28.345
- I mean, they had different branding all under

787
00:28:28.345 --> 00:28:30.664
- their umbrella. And so I think you will

788
00:28:30.664 --> 00:28:32.744
- continue to see that because we wanna be

789
00:28:32.744 --> 00:28:34.664
- able to group things. These are like minded

790
00:28:34.664 --> 00:28:35.164
- shows.

791
00:28:35.865 --> 00:28:36.904
- You look at what,

792
00:28:37.625 --> 00:28:38.744
- a 24,

793
00:28:38.744 --> 00:28:41.150
- which is, I think, what part of Fox's

794
00:28:41.150 --> 00:28:43.169
- networks. Like, each one's grouping,

795
00:28:43.869 --> 00:28:45.730
- certain kind of shows under

796
00:28:46.190 --> 00:28:49.069
- that guys. And and I think that also

797
00:28:49.069 --> 00:28:51.009
- helps us as as an audience

798
00:28:51.390 --> 00:28:53.009
- to understand that. So

799
00:28:53.394 --> 00:28:56.035
- I think more networks should probably brand. You

800
00:28:56.035 --> 00:28:57.875
- know, if I were to think about if

801
00:28:57.875 --> 00:28:58.934
- I'm joining a network,

802
00:28:59.315 --> 00:29:01.015
- the network value should be,

803
00:29:01.394 --> 00:29:04.275
- I'm gonna put this logo on my podcast

804
00:29:04.275 --> 00:29:06.089
- so that people knew that this is part

805
00:29:06.089 --> 00:29:07.890
- of this network. This is the quality you're

806
00:29:07.890 --> 00:29:10.210
- getting, but not every network does that. Yeah.

807
00:29:10.210 --> 00:29:11.569
- And I think about a lot of creators,

808
00:29:11.569 --> 00:29:13.650
- they want iHeart. Like, I want that little

809
00:29:13.650 --> 00:29:15.109
- iHeart logo on there

810
00:29:15.650 --> 00:29:17.730
- because it's a feel good. It makes me

811
00:29:17.730 --> 00:29:20.049
- feel like I've I've achieved, you know. IHeart

812
00:29:20.049 --> 00:29:22.144
- wants me, but, like, it's not really hard

813
00:29:22.144 --> 00:29:24.304
- to join the iHeart network in in some

814
00:29:24.304 --> 00:29:24.804
- regards.

815
00:29:25.184 --> 00:29:27.184
- They just want to make their money and

816
00:29:27.184 --> 00:29:29.184
- and inject their ads and you're giving up

817
00:29:29.184 --> 00:29:31.664
- the control there. Now, there's nuances. So anyone

818
00:29:31.664 --> 00:29:33.605
- that's listening, iHeart. I apologize.

819
00:29:34.065 --> 00:29:35.345
- I know there's more and I can't wait

820
00:29:35.345 --> 00:29:37.079
- for for Nathan to come on but like

821
00:29:37.559 --> 00:29:39.099
- it's a higher level like

822
00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:42.119
- they're they're they're all operating in very different

823
00:29:42.119 --> 00:29:42.619
- ways.

824
00:29:43.399 --> 00:29:45.319
- I think one thing we didn't touch on

825
00:29:45.319 --> 00:29:47.000
- and I would love to because we've talked

826
00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:49.000
- about the past but like what we're feeling

827
00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:50.460
- like right now is the MCNs,

828
00:29:51.079 --> 00:29:52.779
- the full screens, the,

829
00:29:53.595 --> 00:29:54.734
- oh my god, the Machinima's,

830
00:29:55.115 --> 00:29:56.494
- the the YouTube

831
00:29:56.954 --> 00:29:58.095
- operating channels

832
00:29:58.634 --> 00:29:59.134
- of

833
00:29:59.595 --> 00:30:01.674
- what is it? The the mid, the early

834
00:30:01.674 --> 00:30:04.154
- two thousands, mid two thousands that we've now

835
00:30:04.154 --> 00:30:05.775
- just moved into. Like, okay,

836
00:30:06.190 --> 00:30:07.009
- those all

837
00:30:07.309 --> 00:30:08.609
- pivoted. They died.

838
00:30:10.029 --> 00:30:12.190
- We've now got the podcast, but podcast has

839
00:30:12.190 --> 00:30:14.910
- moved into video. So great. Instead of just

840
00:30:14.910 --> 00:30:17.630
- video only, which is what the MCNs were

841
00:30:17.630 --> 00:30:18.450
- at the core,

842
00:30:18.910 --> 00:30:20.210
- we're now moving into

843
00:30:20.554 --> 00:30:22.174
- the new version of an MCN,

844
00:30:23.194 --> 00:30:25.214
- where it's truly a multichannel network,

845
00:30:25.515 --> 00:30:28.634
- and podcasting with video is becoming that key

846
00:30:28.634 --> 00:30:30.714
- piece. But then you throw in the live

847
00:30:30.714 --> 00:30:32.875
- component because I don't think the MCNs were

848
00:30:32.875 --> 00:30:35.214
- doing live too much back then.

849
00:30:35.809 --> 00:30:37.730
- But they were doing original content that you

850
00:30:37.730 --> 00:30:39.809
- knew. This was a full screen show. They

851
00:30:39.809 --> 00:30:41.430
- worked on the with the creators,

852
00:30:42.289 --> 00:30:44.369
- and they were I think Disney ended up

853
00:30:44.369 --> 00:30:46.289
- buying them. So you were getting the backings

854
00:30:46.289 --> 00:30:48.289
- by Disney and the writers by Disney. It's

855
00:30:48.289 --> 00:30:50.394
- like, you're seeing a lot of that, but

856
00:30:50.394 --> 00:30:52.795
- I feel that that's still all led by

857
00:30:52.795 --> 00:30:53.855
- money and ads.

858
00:30:54.394 --> 00:30:56.015
- Yeah. It's interesting too. I've noticed

859
00:30:57.355 --> 00:30:59.355
- that Silicon Valley is putting their thumb on

860
00:30:59.355 --> 00:31:02.335
- the scale of, of media now with

861
00:31:02.809 --> 00:31:06.190
- some investments that they've made into some upstart

862
00:31:06.809 --> 00:31:09.529
- new media networks is what they're calling it.

863
00:31:09.529 --> 00:31:11.069
- Now. It's an interesting time

864
00:31:11.529 --> 00:31:12.190
- in this

865
00:31:12.650 --> 00:31:15.069
- transition that we're seeing between the,

866
00:31:15.375 --> 00:31:18.335
- the podcast economy of sorts, which has really

867
00:31:18.335 --> 00:31:19.875
- kind of led all this,

868
00:31:20.734 --> 00:31:23.535
- you know, new media development, really. And now,

869
00:31:23.535 --> 00:31:26.095
- you know, these big VCs are trying to

870
00:31:26.095 --> 00:31:26.595
- capture

871
00:31:26.894 --> 00:31:28.414
- what, what it is that they're doing is

872
00:31:28.414 --> 00:31:30.595
- somehow unique compared to,

873
00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:34.599
- you know, YouTube created stuff. And, and that

874
00:31:34.599 --> 00:31:35.559
- they're almost like,

875
00:31:36.440 --> 00:31:38.440
- you know, using this brand of new media,

876
00:31:38.440 --> 00:31:40.140
- they're almost trying to reproduce

877
00:31:41.240 --> 00:31:41.980
- a broadcast

878
00:31:42.440 --> 00:31:45.500
- again in a different format, younger generation,

879
00:31:46.164 --> 00:31:47.944
- you know, like the TPA

880
00:31:48.484 --> 00:31:48.984
- kind

881
00:31:49.365 --> 00:31:52.244
- of new new streaming show that's live on

882
00:31:52.244 --> 00:31:52.744
- X

883
00:31:53.365 --> 00:31:55.204
- where they have the, you know, it's almost

884
00:31:55.204 --> 00:31:56.424
- like, like CNBC

885
00:31:56.805 --> 00:31:59.224
- and, and it's really interesting how,

886
00:31:59.690 --> 00:32:02.329
- you know, there's these different groups inside of

887
00:32:02.329 --> 00:32:04.730
- the, of the media industry that are trying

888
00:32:04.730 --> 00:32:05.710
- to capture

889
00:32:06.329 --> 00:32:08.349
- a certain kind of innovation

890
00:32:08.809 --> 00:32:10.190
- is what I'm, I'm

891
00:32:10.730 --> 00:32:13.365
- capturing it as is that they're trying to

892
00:32:13.605 --> 00:32:16.484
- rebrand something. So there's a renewed energy by

893
00:32:16.484 --> 00:32:19.525
- around something that justifies their $100,000,000

894
00:32:19.525 --> 00:32:22.644
- investment of open AI into this live streaming

895
00:32:22.644 --> 00:32:24.744
- show. That's just like, you know, like,

896
00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:26.259
- was it

897
00:32:26.879 --> 00:32:29.279
- a stock talk on CNBC or somebody? And

898
00:32:29.279 --> 00:32:31.119
- that's kind of what it is. It's like

899
00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:34.399
- a live business channel, but, but it's, it's

900
00:32:34.399 --> 00:32:36.319
- almost like we're moving into a kind of

901
00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:37.619
- like a morphed

902
00:32:38.704 --> 00:32:39.845
- mainstream media,

903
00:32:40.224 --> 00:32:42.964
- digital media kind of ecosystem now.

904
00:32:43.904 --> 00:32:45.105
- And I think that a lot of the

905
00:32:45.105 --> 00:32:47.424
- big media networks that are out there right

906
00:32:47.424 --> 00:32:50.244
- now are, are rapidly transitioning

907
00:32:50.704 --> 00:32:51.684
- into becoming

908
00:32:52.359 --> 00:32:54.460
- more like that. Right? Where they're they're

909
00:32:54.759 --> 00:32:55.579
- being seen

910
00:32:56.200 --> 00:32:59.799
- as kind of really more more more digital

911
00:32:59.799 --> 00:33:01.960
- native. Right? So they're bringing in different talent.

912
00:33:01.960 --> 00:33:04.200
- They're bringing in different approaches to the shows.

913
00:33:04.200 --> 00:33:04.700
- They're

914
00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:06.059
- less formal

915
00:33:06.359 --> 00:33:07.899
- or more, you know,

916
00:33:08.575 --> 00:33:10.674
- younger, more, you know,

917
00:33:11.295 --> 00:33:13.555
- as a different approach to the content than

918
00:33:13.934 --> 00:33:16.515
- typically what you see on a major broadcast

919
00:33:16.575 --> 00:33:18.035
- network or a cable network.

920
00:33:18.575 --> 00:33:21.875
- So we're seeing this munging together of concepts

921
00:33:22.494 --> 00:33:22.994
- and,

922
00:33:23.450 --> 00:33:25.210
- and that is a form of a network

923
00:33:25.210 --> 00:33:27.069
- to what they're doing there.

924
00:33:27.450 --> 00:33:28.430
- And I'm,

925
00:33:29.210 --> 00:33:31.549
- what are you seeing as far as changes

926
00:33:31.609 --> 00:33:34.109
- in, in how mainstream media

927
00:33:34.410 --> 00:33:35.150
- is adopting

928
00:33:35.529 --> 00:33:38.250
- these concepts that we're talking about around building

929
00:33:38.250 --> 00:33:38.750
- networks

930
00:33:39.154 --> 00:33:41.255
- that are more digital native.

931
00:33:42.034 --> 00:33:43.154
- I mean, you think about,

932
00:33:43.714 --> 00:33:45.474
- if we look at the big media companies,

933
00:33:45.474 --> 00:33:47.174
- how many of them have companion

934
00:33:47.554 --> 00:33:48.774
- podcasts to

935
00:33:49.315 --> 00:33:49.954
- their their,

936
00:33:51.650 --> 00:33:53.809
- TV shows or movies. Right? So Well, we're

937
00:33:53.809 --> 00:33:55.909
- used to in your early years of podcasting.

938
00:33:56.049 --> 00:33:58.609
- They all had full episode TV episodes in

939
00:33:58.609 --> 00:33:59.990
- their RSS feeds.

940
00:34:00.609 --> 00:34:02.369
- Right. So And I wonder if we're gonna

941
00:34:02.369 --> 00:34:03.509
- come back to that again.

942
00:34:04.015 --> 00:34:05.554
- I have a hot take.

943
00:34:06.335 --> 00:34:08.094
- I'll share it here, but I think the

944
00:34:08.094 --> 00:34:10.255
- hot take I have is with Apple doing

945
00:34:10.255 --> 00:34:10.994
- the HLS,

946
00:34:12.094 --> 00:34:15.715
- you will eventually see more video being distributed

947
00:34:16.014 --> 00:34:18.440
- over that kind of, and and that just

948
00:34:18.440 --> 00:34:21.799
- becomes another distribution channel. Yeah. Right. And I

949
00:34:21.799 --> 00:34:23.260
- think that is where

950
00:34:24.279 --> 00:34:26.359
- everything's gonna go. We know this from a

951
00:34:26.359 --> 00:34:27.260
- media standpoint.

952
00:34:28.199 --> 00:34:31.339
- Dollars go dollars are just gonna funnel wherever

953
00:34:31.885 --> 00:34:33.885
- you're gonna get the most. And so video

954
00:34:33.885 --> 00:34:35.905
- happens to have that. Right?

955
00:34:36.845 --> 00:34:38.704
- We've seen this with YCTV

956
00:34:39.164 --> 00:34:41.805
- is doing far more is a higher CPM

957
00:34:41.805 --> 00:34:43.905
- than a programmatic ad on audio.

958
00:34:44.739 --> 00:34:46.420
- No matter how much we fight it as

959
00:34:46.420 --> 00:34:48.840
- an industry from an audio standpoint, we're like,

960
00:34:49.539 --> 00:34:52.340
- they're more engaged, they're this, they have higher

961
00:34:52.340 --> 00:34:54.760
- yada, yada, yada. It is still just,

962
00:34:56.420 --> 00:34:58.660
- video, video, video. I remember when I was

963
00:34:58.660 --> 00:34:59.400
- at CVS,

964
00:34:59.855 --> 00:35:01.214
- one of the things we were taught,

965
00:35:01.934 --> 00:35:04.255
- you look at like news channels. So here

966
00:35:04.255 --> 00:35:05.635
- in LA is KNX.

967
00:35:07.295 --> 00:35:09.534
- They could charge more because the person who's

968
00:35:09.534 --> 00:35:11.214
- listening to a news channel is far different

969
00:35:11.214 --> 00:35:12.510
- than the person who's listening

970
00:35:12.829 --> 00:35:14.690
- to a music station

971
00:35:15.150 --> 00:35:18.190
- and passive versus active listening. And so you're

972
00:35:18.190 --> 00:35:19.949
- you're gonna continue to see the fight for

973
00:35:19.949 --> 00:35:20.449
- attention.

974
00:35:21.070 --> 00:35:23.710
- We, as a media industry, will continue to

975
00:35:23.710 --> 00:35:26.030
- try and figure out, you know, Tom and

976
00:35:26.030 --> 00:35:27.489
- Sounds Profitable or

977
00:35:28.034 --> 00:35:30.355
- or Paul in Signal Hill. Like everyone's just

978
00:35:30.355 --> 00:35:31.635
- trying to figure out like what are the

979
00:35:31.635 --> 00:35:32.855
- stats and we'll continue

980
00:35:33.234 --> 00:35:34.295
- to make those,

981
00:35:35.394 --> 00:35:36.375
- make those cases

982
00:35:36.675 --> 00:35:37.175
- for,

983
00:35:37.714 --> 00:35:40.454
- unfortunately, for dollars to come in because everything's

984
00:35:40.514 --> 00:35:41.574
- run by dollars.

985
00:35:42.380 --> 00:35:44.059
- Even though I go back to if I

986
00:35:44.059 --> 00:35:45.820
- look at how many of the networks I've

987
00:35:45.820 --> 00:35:48.059
- talked to, how many networks I've got coming

988
00:35:48.059 --> 00:35:50.460
- on the show and hopefully far more, they're

989
00:35:50.460 --> 00:35:52.960
- all not just focused on the ad dollars,

990
00:35:53.260 --> 00:35:56.079
- they're focused on all these different components.

991
00:35:56.860 --> 00:35:58.324
- You know, in some cases, and we could

992
00:35:58.324 --> 00:36:00.244
- look at you and I just

993
00:36:00.724 --> 00:36:02.405
- and my guess, I'll go more with you

994
00:36:02.405 --> 00:36:04.744
- and and your longevity in the space

995
00:36:05.204 --> 00:36:08.324
- and how many podcasts you've done that's, like,

996
00:36:08.324 --> 00:36:10.085
- I'm not making money on this. This builds

997
00:36:10.085 --> 00:36:11.980
- my know, like, and trust. This builds my

998
00:36:11.980 --> 00:36:13.119
- industry. This builds

999
00:36:13.579 --> 00:36:15.840
- my ability to just talk about something.

1000
00:36:17.019 --> 00:36:19.019
- We will always have creators that wanna do

1001
00:36:19.019 --> 00:36:20.079
- that, whether it's

1002
00:36:20.700 --> 00:36:23.579
- on Instagram, whether it's or whatever social platform,

1003
00:36:23.579 --> 00:36:27.074
- whether it's on video, with YouTube, with Twitch,

1004
00:36:27.714 --> 00:36:28.214
- podcast,

1005
00:36:28.755 --> 00:36:31.315
- choose whatever medium it is, no matter which

1006
00:36:31.315 --> 00:36:31.815
- medium,

1007
00:36:32.114 --> 00:36:33.875
- you're still playing the algorithms and you're still

1008
00:36:33.875 --> 00:36:35.255
- have to hustle for,

1009
00:36:36.195 --> 00:36:38.214
- the attention and put out good content.

1010
00:36:38.914 --> 00:36:41.554
- Yeah. Well, that's the bottom line. Right? All

1011
00:36:41.554 --> 00:36:42.454
- of this, but

1012
00:36:42.969 --> 00:36:43.710
- not everybody,

1013
00:36:45.130 --> 00:36:46.269
- is driven by

1014
00:36:46.730 --> 00:36:49.369
- driving big audience either. And, and, and I

1015
00:36:49.369 --> 00:36:51.710
- think that's, that's the spectrum here is,

1016
00:36:52.010 --> 00:36:53.550
- is it some people it's,

1017
00:36:53.849 --> 00:36:55.309
- it's more about who's listening.

1018
00:36:55.835 --> 00:36:57.214
- And I think we may be,

1019
00:36:58.154 --> 00:37:00.255
- HLS may give some exposure

1020
00:37:01.114 --> 00:37:03.034
- to, to that in a different way, as

1021
00:37:03.034 --> 00:37:04.094
- we look to the future,

1022
00:37:05.034 --> 00:37:07.355
- of knowing who your audience is, how far

1023
00:37:07.355 --> 00:37:09.114
- they're listening, what the engagement is. And I

1024
00:37:09.114 --> 00:37:10.815
- think that there's been a lot of

1025
00:37:11.969 --> 00:37:15.010
- YouTube stats envy. That's been around for a

1026
00:37:15.010 --> 00:37:16.070
- few years now,

1027
00:37:16.849 --> 00:37:19.489
- that the podcasting industry is like, you know,

1028
00:37:19.489 --> 00:37:22.070
- when Apple's seeing what's going on too. They're,

1029
00:37:22.130 --> 00:37:23.989
- they're smart people over there. And,

1030
00:37:24.385 --> 00:37:24.704
- and,

1031
00:37:25.425 --> 00:37:25.925
- they're

1032
00:37:26.385 --> 00:37:27.285
- seeing the opportunities

1033
00:37:27.825 --> 00:37:28.885
- that could be

1034
00:37:29.265 --> 00:37:31.825
- coming to podcasting if we had better, deeper

1035
00:37:31.825 --> 00:37:32.325
- metrics

1036
00:37:33.184 --> 00:37:33.664
- and,

1037
00:37:33.985 --> 00:37:34.485
- HLS

1038
00:37:35.345 --> 00:37:37.105
- gives an opportunity for us to build that

1039
00:37:37.105 --> 00:37:38.644
- out over time and

1040
00:37:39.090 --> 00:37:39.590
- into

1041
00:37:39.970 --> 00:37:42.930
- more readily compete with like a YouTube on

1042
00:37:42.930 --> 00:37:44.930
- the modernization side, because I think we've been

1043
00:37:44.930 --> 00:37:46.309
- in a little bit of a disadvantage,

1044
00:37:47.329 --> 00:37:49.489
- for the last few years on that. And

1045
00:37:49.489 --> 00:37:49.989
- so

1046
00:37:50.610 --> 00:37:53.269
- I do wonder though, in the bigger picture,

1047
00:37:54.474 --> 00:37:57.775
- this this addition of HLS into Apple Podcasts,

1048
00:37:58.074 --> 00:38:00.155
- and I've had episodes where we've talked about

1049
00:38:00.155 --> 00:38:01.934
- this to some degree in the past, but,

1050
00:38:02.875 --> 00:38:05.514
- do you think that it's gonna matter what

1051
00:38:05.514 --> 00:38:06.894
- Apple is doing here

1052
00:38:08.039 --> 00:38:10.039
- with all on the video side with so

1053
00:38:10.039 --> 00:38:10.780
- much momentum

1054
00:38:11.079 --> 00:38:13.320
- around all these other platforms on the video

1055
00:38:13.320 --> 00:38:14.860
- side, do you think it's gonna

1056
00:38:15.719 --> 00:38:18.440
- get, get the attention that maybe it could

1057
00:38:18.440 --> 00:38:19.340
- get, or

1058
00:38:19.719 --> 00:38:22.364
- do you think it's, it's gonna, you know,

1059
00:38:22.445 --> 00:38:24.945
- be a flop on on landing? So

1060
00:38:25.565 --> 00:38:25.885
- I,

1061
00:38:26.684 --> 00:38:28.605
- I mean, being the head of relationships for

1062
00:38:28.605 --> 00:38:30.445
- a hosting company, rss.com,

1063
00:38:30.445 --> 00:38:32.605
- and we haven't figured out our own pricing

1064
00:38:32.605 --> 00:38:34.710
- model. Right? Yeah. Right.

1065
00:38:35.269 --> 00:38:37.269
- I don't know. I think is is the

1066
00:38:37.269 --> 00:38:39.510
- biggest thing. You you've got creators that are

1067
00:38:39.510 --> 00:38:40.489
- going, hold on.

1068
00:38:40.949 --> 00:38:43.269
- And this is this is where education comes

1069
00:38:43.269 --> 00:38:45.190
- in, and this is I was literally talking

1070
00:38:45.190 --> 00:38:46.650
- with someone about this yesterday.

1071
00:38:47.795 --> 00:38:48.855
- They didn't understand

1072
00:38:49.394 --> 00:38:50.295
- why it's

1073
00:38:50.835 --> 00:38:52.595
- why it's free to be all these places.

1074
00:38:52.595 --> 00:38:54.215
- And I'm like, come on, people.

1075
00:38:54.595 --> 00:38:56.994
- Like, let's take a moment back. Is it

1076
00:38:56.994 --> 00:38:58.215
- free to be on Instagram?

1077
00:38:58.675 --> 00:39:00.515
- Yes. Is there a cost to being in

1078
00:39:00.515 --> 00:39:01.735
- Instagram? Yes.

1079
00:39:02.049 --> 00:39:04.690
- Yeah. What? There's a cost? Like, yes. You

1080
00:39:04.690 --> 00:39:07.250
- are ultimately helping a what is it? A

1081
00:39:07.250 --> 00:39:08.289
- $3,000,000,000,000

1082
00:39:08.289 --> 00:39:09.429
- market cap company

1083
00:39:10.130 --> 00:39:10.630
- drive

1084
00:39:11.010 --> 00:39:11.510
- their

1085
00:39:11.969 --> 00:39:12.710
- ad sales

1086
00:39:13.010 --> 00:39:14.150
- with your content,

1087
00:39:15.284 --> 00:39:17.605
- and pushing an audience to there that they

1088
00:39:17.605 --> 00:39:18.824
- control the algorithms

1089
00:39:19.284 --> 00:39:21.625
- and they get to control the payout and

1090
00:39:21.844 --> 00:39:23.684
- you get to complain I got kicked off

1091
00:39:23.684 --> 00:39:25.684
- or my POs got kicked down, like, whatever

1092
00:39:25.684 --> 00:39:27.844
- it is. Like, this is this is no

1093
00:39:27.844 --> 00:39:28.984
- different. So

1094
00:39:29.500 --> 00:39:31.980
- I think what HLS or, sorry, what Apple's

1095
00:39:31.980 --> 00:39:34.300
- doing is ultimately saying, like, hey, we're gonna

1096
00:39:34.300 --> 00:39:35.280
- give you the control.

1097
00:39:35.660 --> 00:39:37.500
- But as a creator, like, hold on. I

1098
00:39:37.500 --> 00:39:39.280
- now have to pay how much money,

1099
00:39:39.579 --> 00:39:42.539
- which each of our hosting platforms, ours no

1100
00:39:42.539 --> 00:39:44.300
- different. We don't have the pricing yet, but,

1101
00:39:44.300 --> 00:39:46.344
- like, each one's got a different model.

1102
00:39:47.125 --> 00:39:49.545
- It's ultimately gonna be tied to advertising,

1103
00:39:49.844 --> 00:39:52.585
- and that's where it's like, hold on.

1104
00:39:53.204 --> 00:39:55.204
- But there's a cost to it. And when

1105
00:39:55.204 --> 00:39:57.144
- there's a cost to it, it's like, great.

1106
00:39:57.204 --> 00:39:59.469
- We, as the hosting company, are gonna are

1107
00:39:59.469 --> 00:40:01.309
- gonna stomach some of that cost. We're gonna

1108
00:40:01.309 --> 00:40:02.750
- pass that on to you by what we're

1109
00:40:02.750 --> 00:40:05.070
- charging. Some of that's gonna be eaten up

1110
00:40:05.070 --> 00:40:07.890
- by advertising, and there's rev share. But, like,

1111
00:40:07.949 --> 00:40:10.510
- it's no different than what Spotify and YouTube

1112
00:40:10.510 --> 00:40:12.670
- are doing right now. We're, like, upload whatever

1113
00:40:12.670 --> 00:40:13.650
- you want for free,

1114
00:40:14.015 --> 00:40:15.934
- but we control the platform, we control the

1115
00:40:15.934 --> 00:40:16.434
- algorithm,

1116
00:40:16.735 --> 00:40:18.114
- we control the monetization.

1117
00:40:19.855 --> 00:40:22.094
- Currently, I don't think what YouTube's got dynamic

1118
00:40:22.094 --> 00:40:23.934
- ads, you have to bake it in. So,

1119
00:40:23.934 --> 00:40:26.414
- there's all these different components that go into

1120
00:40:26.414 --> 00:40:26.914
- it.

1121
00:40:27.295 --> 00:40:28.815
- I think if we look at the large

1122
00:40:28.815 --> 00:40:29.715
- media companies,

1123
00:40:30.230 --> 00:40:32.489
- they're all trying to figure that out. And

1124
00:40:32.710 --> 00:40:33.690
- at some point,

1125
00:40:34.069 --> 00:40:35.989
- I was talking with the person yesterday about

1126
00:40:35.989 --> 00:40:37.130
- this. At some point,

1127
00:40:37.510 --> 00:40:40.309
- just like there's one dashboard for you to

1128
00:40:40.309 --> 00:40:42.730
- control all of your social posts because agencies

1129
00:40:42.789 --> 00:40:44.855
- need to be able to control all those

1130
00:40:44.855 --> 00:40:46.315
- social posts in one place.

1131
00:40:46.694 --> 00:40:48.635
- You will eventually have to have a dashboard

1132
00:40:48.855 --> 00:40:51.335
- for media buyers and agencies to be able

1133
00:40:51.335 --> 00:40:55.275
- to place their ads in Spotify, Apple, YouTube,

1134
00:40:55.655 --> 00:40:58.054
- Twitch, wherever that video is, no different than

1135
00:40:58.054 --> 00:40:59.034
- you've got on social.

1136
00:41:00.349 --> 00:41:01.730
- Because as a media buyer,

1137
00:41:02.510 --> 00:41:04.670
- you wanna be wherever your audience is, you

1138
00:41:04.670 --> 00:41:05.730
- wanna be able to

1139
00:41:06.349 --> 00:41:09.469
- reach that audience on whatever content, whatever platform

1140
00:41:09.469 --> 00:41:11.469
- it is, then you have to be able

1141
00:41:11.469 --> 00:41:13.150
- to go down that path. But right now,

1142
00:41:13.150 --> 00:41:14.985
- we're not there. Right now, it's a a

1143
00:41:14.985 --> 00:41:17.005
- fight for attention. It's fight for

1144
00:41:17.305 --> 00:41:17.805
- who

1145
00:41:18.105 --> 00:41:21.385
- is Netflix by taking Jay Shetty off of

1146
00:41:21.385 --> 00:41:24.025
- YouTube. Is Netflix able to move his audience

1147
00:41:24.025 --> 00:41:25.325
- over there and get the exclusivity?

1148
00:41:26.105 --> 00:41:27.785
- I mean, I listen to the column app

1149
00:41:27.785 --> 00:41:29.489
- and Jay Shetty's in the column app, but

1150
00:41:29.570 --> 00:41:31.090
- he's also all these other places. There's a

1151
00:41:31.090 --> 00:41:33.250
- great brand deal for him, but who knows

1152
00:41:33.250 --> 00:41:35.730
- how it works out economically for everyone. Well,

1153
00:41:35.730 --> 00:41:37.730
- that and plus there's a good chance that

1154
00:41:37.730 --> 00:41:39.809
- he's gonna lose audience when he does this

1155
00:41:39.809 --> 00:41:40.309
- too.

1156
00:41:40.690 --> 00:41:42.070
- So I still say,

1157
00:41:42.849 --> 00:41:45.269
- Joe Rogan lost millions of dollars,

1158
00:41:45.644 --> 00:41:46.545
- but operationally

1159
00:41:47.244 --> 00:41:48.605
- it was an easy thing for him. Had

1160
00:41:48.605 --> 00:41:51.344
- he just, or was it, yeah. Was it

1161
00:41:51.485 --> 00:41:51.985
- taking

1162
00:41:52.525 --> 00:41:54.844
- a share of ad revenue or was it,

1163
00:41:55.644 --> 00:41:57.265
- you know, getting a guarantee?

1164
00:41:57.750 --> 00:41:59.590
- So I think that was the, that's the

1165
00:41:59.590 --> 00:42:02.090
- trade off these guys make, right? Is, is,

1166
00:42:02.230 --> 00:42:02.969
- you know,

1167
00:42:03.269 --> 00:42:04.869
- they offered $10,000,000

1168
00:42:04.869 --> 00:42:06.250
- or a $100,000,000

1169
00:42:06.869 --> 00:42:08.489
- you know, for a two year deal.

1170
00:42:08.869 --> 00:42:11.670
- What's my potential revenue on just taking a

1171
00:42:11.670 --> 00:42:13.985
- rev share off of my natural

1172
00:42:14.605 --> 00:42:15.664
- audience. And if it's

1173
00:42:15.965 --> 00:42:18.045
- the same or equal, just take the deal.

1174
00:42:18.045 --> 00:42:18.545
- Right.

1175
00:42:19.164 --> 00:42:21.164
- But in the long run, and I think

1176
00:42:21.164 --> 00:42:22.305
- that that's why

1177
00:42:22.605 --> 00:42:25.320
- Joe came back to wider distribution is that

1178
00:42:25.480 --> 00:42:26.219
- the Spotify,

1179
00:42:26.680 --> 00:42:29.160
- Spotify realized that they could probably scale Joe

1180
00:42:29.160 --> 00:42:31.579
- show bigger and make more money from it

1181
00:42:31.960 --> 00:42:35.579
- on a higher, higher scale. Right. And versus

1182
00:42:36.360 --> 00:42:38.280
- using his show as a way to get

1183
00:42:38.280 --> 00:42:38.780
- subscribers.

1184
00:42:39.554 --> 00:42:41.494
- And once they saturated that

1185
00:42:41.795 --> 00:42:42.295
- subscription,

1186
00:42:43.795 --> 00:42:46.375
- appeal of sorts by having Joe over there,

1187
00:42:46.994 --> 00:42:48.594
- then it made sense to open it back

1188
00:42:48.594 --> 00:42:50.914
- up again. And that that's probably what's happening

1189
00:42:50.914 --> 00:42:52.675
- to some degree with Netflix is I think

1190
00:42:52.675 --> 00:42:54.934
- Netflix is using this as a way to,

1191
00:42:55.489 --> 00:42:57.409
- or or they think that by bringing on

1192
00:42:57.409 --> 00:42:59.969
- Jay, that's gonna get more people to subscribe

1193
00:42:59.969 --> 00:43:02.849
- to Netflix for some period of time. I

1194
00:43:02.849 --> 00:43:04.769
- mean, but that's the math everyone's looking at.

1195
00:43:04.769 --> 00:43:06.369
- Right? If we put out if we look

1196
00:43:06.369 --> 00:43:08.210
- at why does this show get canceled after

1197
00:43:08.210 --> 00:43:10.525
- one season? I love this show. Well, it

1198
00:43:10.525 --> 00:43:12.065
- didn't drive the subscribers that the

1199
00:43:14.844 --> 00:43:16.465
- platform needed, you know?

1200
00:43:16.844 --> 00:43:19.244
- Netflix didn't get more subscribers, which is ultimately

1201
00:43:19.244 --> 00:43:20.784
- what's going to pay for that

1202
00:43:21.085 --> 00:43:23.324
- second season because second season is going to

1203
00:43:23.324 --> 00:43:24.210
- cost you more.

1204
00:43:24.690 --> 00:43:26.530
- Not enough people are watching it from an

1205
00:43:26.530 --> 00:43:27.909
- ad supported standpoint.

1206
00:43:28.289 --> 00:43:29.570
- So there's so many different

1207
00:43:29.889 --> 00:43:31.570
- but it all goes back to the economics

1208
00:43:31.570 --> 00:43:34.130
- of advertising, which if we go back to

1209
00:43:34.130 --> 00:43:34.630
- networks,

1210
00:43:35.170 --> 00:43:37.329
- the podcast networks and the conversations I get

1211
00:43:37.329 --> 00:43:39.190
- to have is, like, it's not all

1212
00:43:39.755 --> 00:43:41.454
- ad supported. It's all not

1213
00:43:41.994 --> 00:43:43.695
- it's not all ad dollars.

1214
00:43:44.074 --> 00:43:46.555
- But from a new media, they're all moving

1215
00:43:46.555 --> 00:43:47.055
- into,

1216
00:43:47.994 --> 00:43:49.055
- okay, social

1217
00:43:49.515 --> 00:43:50.015
- video.

1218
00:43:51.195 --> 00:43:53.035
- But if they're not looking at that from

1219
00:43:53.035 --> 00:43:54.949
- a revenue standpoint, the creator at the end

1220
00:43:54.949 --> 00:43:57.510
- of the day, anyone listening has to agree,

1221
00:43:57.510 --> 00:43:59.909
- the creator has to do the hustle. Every

1222
00:43:59.909 --> 00:44:02.389
- one of my network operators has said, like,

1223
00:44:02.389 --> 00:44:04.329
- that Yep. You have to hustle.

1224
00:44:05.269 --> 00:44:08.089
- And if you're not hustling, you can't expect

1225
00:44:08.694 --> 00:44:10.534
- anyone else to do it. And we could

1226
00:44:10.534 --> 00:44:12.315
- look at why did this

1227
00:44:12.855 --> 00:44:13.674
- movie fail.

1228
00:44:14.454 --> 00:44:16.375
- ABC didn't do a good job marketing, or

1229
00:44:16.375 --> 00:44:18.534
- Disney didn't do a good job marketing it,

1230
00:44:18.534 --> 00:44:21.174
- or this the, the talent didn't get on

1231
00:44:21.174 --> 00:44:23.414
- to all the press junkets they need, or

1232
00:44:23.414 --> 00:44:25.869
- the the company that they outsource for the

1233
00:44:25.869 --> 00:44:27.869
- trailer did a terrible job understanding what the

1234
00:44:27.869 --> 00:44:29.809
- movie is, and the trailer didn't do well.

1235
00:44:29.869 --> 00:44:31.309
- And then we see it later on. It

1236
00:44:31.309 --> 00:44:33.390
- becomes a cult classic. Like, at the end

1237
00:44:33.390 --> 00:44:35.789
- of the day, you still gotta hustle, and

1238
00:44:35.789 --> 00:44:37.570
- and and it's not all for sure thing.

1239
00:44:37.925 --> 00:44:39.605
- Well, if you can be a part of

1240
00:44:39.605 --> 00:44:41.684
- a big network that has big budgets and

1241
00:44:41.684 --> 00:44:42.505
- big reach,

1242
00:44:43.684 --> 00:44:46.105
- then, you know, and I think that's the

1243
00:44:46.324 --> 00:44:47.704
- the factor that Joe

1244
00:44:48.644 --> 00:44:50.244
- Joe Rogan factor when he did the deal

1245
00:44:50.244 --> 00:44:52.390
- with Spotify is just the, just the sheer

1246
00:44:52.390 --> 00:44:54.170
- reach of the platform and the prioritization

1247
00:44:54.469 --> 00:44:55.369
- that he's gonna

1248
00:44:56.469 --> 00:44:59.269
- get from the platform in cross promotion and

1249
00:44:59.269 --> 00:45:00.409
- promotion and

1250
00:45:00.949 --> 00:45:03.110
- PR and spin and all that stuff that

1251
00:45:03.110 --> 00:45:04.550
- goes along with the deal like that. And

1252
00:45:04.550 --> 00:45:06.545
- the same thing that now we talked about

1253
00:45:06.545 --> 00:45:08.704
- it on this show about the, the Jay

1254
00:45:08.704 --> 00:45:09.684
- Shetty deal,

1255
00:45:10.065 --> 00:45:11.985
- Jay Shetty probably wouldn't even come up in

1256
00:45:11.985 --> 00:45:14.144
- the conversation if he hadn't done that deal.

1257
00:45:14.144 --> 00:45:16.625
- So, you know, there's, there's elements of this

1258
00:45:16.625 --> 00:45:18.405
- that around PR and promotion

1259
00:45:18.989 --> 00:45:21.309
- that, that help, you know, the network and

1260
00:45:21.309 --> 00:45:22.929
- it helped the shows too.

1261
00:45:23.710 --> 00:45:24.530
- But it also

1262
00:45:25.150 --> 00:45:25.650
- is,

1263
00:45:26.349 --> 00:45:28.829
- it really begs the question around, you know,

1264
00:45:28.829 --> 00:45:32.269
- how is this economically supported? Right. And just

1265
00:45:32.269 --> 00:45:34.134
- like what you said, you know, there, there

1266
00:45:34.134 --> 00:45:36.775
- is a certain amount of subscription fatigue out

1267
00:45:36.775 --> 00:45:39.674
- there. Right. And then there's this tension of,

1268
00:45:39.815 --> 00:45:40.875
- of, if you

1269
00:45:41.574 --> 00:45:43.034
- deliver enough ads,

1270
00:45:43.414 --> 00:45:45.434
- then you're going to convert people into

1271
00:45:45.974 --> 00:45:49.400
- a subscription model. But then is there oversaturation

1272
00:45:49.699 --> 00:45:52.579
- of subscription model? And once that happens, then

1273
00:45:52.579 --> 00:45:53.960
- where do we go? Right?

1274
00:45:54.339 --> 00:45:57.159
- So We're definitely in that subscription fatigue.

1275
00:45:57.539 --> 00:45:59.940
- The jokes right now is with the playoffs

1276
00:45:59.940 --> 00:46:01.539
- going on as we record this, you know,

1277
00:46:01.539 --> 00:46:03.515
- you get the NBA and NHL playoffs. It's

1278
00:46:03.515 --> 00:46:06.074
- like, I don't know what channel to watch

1279
00:46:06.074 --> 00:46:08.074
- to get what game, and that's a terrible

1280
00:46:08.074 --> 00:46:10.315
- thing. I'm like, hold on. If I've subscribed

1281
00:46:10.315 --> 00:46:11.835
- to this, I can only get this game.

1282
00:46:11.835 --> 00:46:13.275
- But if I subscribe to this, I can

1283
00:46:13.275 --> 00:46:14.795
- get that game. I can't I can't watch

1284
00:46:14.795 --> 00:46:16.474
- them all. I mean, that's a as a

1285
00:46:16.474 --> 00:46:18.909
- fan experience who just wants sports, I mean,

1286
00:46:18.909 --> 00:46:20.510
- that's a terrible thing. So now you gotta

1287
00:46:20.510 --> 00:46:22.050
- package and bundle it all together.

1288
00:46:22.349 --> 00:46:25.150
- That's a that's a terrible experience right there,

1289
00:46:25.150 --> 00:46:27.469
- but it's all about the subscription. So I

1290
00:46:27.469 --> 00:46:29.309
- think you do have a valid point.

1291
00:46:29.869 --> 00:46:31.630
- Joe Rogan, I think what is it? Joe

1292
00:46:31.630 --> 00:46:33.630
- Biden is making millions of dollars from a

1293
00:46:33.630 --> 00:46:34.130
- subscription.

1294
00:46:36.085 --> 00:46:37.305
- What is it? Supercast

1295
00:46:38.405 --> 00:46:40.405
- with Red Sea Ventures just did the whole

1296
00:46:40.405 --> 00:46:41.224
- deal on,

1297
00:46:43.045 --> 00:46:43.545
- Spotify,

1298
00:46:45.045 --> 00:46:47.529
- video subscription, I think that was, if I'm

1299
00:46:47.529 --> 00:46:50.589
- remembering today's Pod News, right? Yeah. Okay. So,

1300
00:46:50.969 --> 00:46:52.569
- there's so many different ways as I keep

1301
00:46:52.569 --> 00:46:54.489
- going back. There's 20 plus ways to make

1302
00:46:54.489 --> 00:46:57.049
- money. It's just a matter of how do

1303
00:46:57.049 --> 00:46:59.369
- you want to make that money? How do

1304
00:46:59.369 --> 00:47:01.389
- you want to invest your time?

1305
00:47:02.264 --> 00:47:05.224
- Where are networks or where are operators going

1306
00:47:05.224 --> 00:47:08.284
- to go creators, individual creators, gonna be outsourcing

1307
00:47:08.344 --> 00:47:10.424
- their team? I mean, I talk about this

1308
00:47:10.424 --> 00:47:11.804
- all the time. I'd rather spend

1309
00:47:12.105 --> 00:47:13.005
- $30

1310
00:47:13.065 --> 00:47:15.224
- to hire a production company to do my

1311
00:47:15.224 --> 00:47:15.724
- show

1312
00:47:16.630 --> 00:47:18.969
- so that I can make more money on

1313
00:47:19.190 --> 00:47:21.349
- not producing and not learning how to edit

1314
00:47:21.349 --> 00:47:23.030
- a show but actually go make the money

1315
00:47:23.030 --> 00:47:24.389
- on whatever I'm going to make the money

1316
00:47:24.389 --> 00:47:26.809
- and whether it's closing deals, it's,

1317
00:47:27.590 --> 00:47:30.090
- getting booking, whatever that may be. So,

1318
00:47:30.625 --> 00:47:33.265
- you will eventually see these media companies will

1319
00:47:33.265 --> 00:47:35.285
- have the teams that'll be able to run

1320
00:47:35.425 --> 00:47:37.505
- not just their ad sales, but run their

1321
00:47:37.505 --> 00:47:39.825
- social, run their video, run X, Y, and

1322
00:47:39.825 --> 00:47:40.325
- Z.

1323
00:47:40.785 --> 00:47:41.925
- You look at like Midas,

1324
00:47:42.224 --> 00:47:43.765
- the Midas team and

1325
00:47:44.610 --> 00:47:46.530
- small lean team, but how much content they're

1326
00:47:46.530 --> 00:47:48.710
- putting out there across all different channels

1327
00:47:49.090 --> 00:47:51.329
- because they realize it's a content game. It

1328
00:47:51.329 --> 00:47:53.809
- is the algorithmic game, but they've also figured

1329
00:47:53.809 --> 00:47:55.430
- out what good content is because

1330
00:47:55.890 --> 00:47:59.490
- the three brothers know those different unique, aspects

1331
00:47:59.490 --> 00:48:01.304
- of it. So, you know, I have to

1332
00:48:01.304 --> 00:48:03.945
- ask you about this one topic Okay. That

1333
00:48:03.945 --> 00:48:04.605
- that is,

1334
00:48:05.144 --> 00:48:07.724
- that's hot on everybody's mind right now. And

1335
00:48:07.784 --> 00:48:09.224
- I'm trying to get everybody's kind of,

1336
00:48:10.344 --> 00:48:12.344
- feel about where where we are right now,

1337
00:48:12.344 --> 00:48:15.244
- and it's and it's really focused on AI.

1338
00:48:15.304 --> 00:48:15.804
- Right?

1339
00:48:16.880 --> 00:48:19.280
- Do you hear any of these networks talking

1340
00:48:19.280 --> 00:48:19.780
- about,

1341
00:48:20.239 --> 00:48:20.900
- how they're

1342
00:48:21.519 --> 00:48:24.739
- either embracing it or not, or are they

1343
00:48:24.800 --> 00:48:27.059
- looking at ways to bring efficiencies?

1344
00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:30.784
- Are they, you know, how are you hearing

1345
00:48:30.844 --> 00:48:34.125
- that people are using AI in the content

1346
00:48:34.125 --> 00:48:34.625
- creation?

1347
00:48:35.085 --> 00:48:37.984
- Ecospace. I mean, I'm seeing so much

1348
00:48:38.445 --> 00:48:40.125
- interesting stuff out there that I can't help,

1349
00:48:40.125 --> 00:48:41.744
- but bring it to this show.

1350
00:48:42.590 --> 00:48:45.230
- That is that that is radically gonna change.

1351
00:48:45.230 --> 00:48:47.150
- Actually, the next couple of episodes are going

1352
00:48:47.150 --> 00:48:48.210
- to be mind blowers,

1353
00:48:49.150 --> 00:48:51.949
- because of what is happening out of the,

1354
00:48:52.989 --> 00:48:55.090
- the the whole Silicon Valley area

1355
00:48:55.390 --> 00:48:58.864
- with AI. And I just wonder, because podcasting

1356
00:48:58.925 --> 00:49:01.565
- has historically been a little bit behind the

1357
00:49:01.565 --> 00:49:02.945
- times when it comes to,

1358
00:49:03.644 --> 00:49:06.605
- to technology and adopting it. Right. And in

1359
00:49:06.605 --> 00:49:08.844
- improving. And in some ways, this what's happened

1360
00:49:08.844 --> 00:49:11.670
- with HLS and Apple is a is a

1361
00:49:11.670 --> 00:49:14.389
- sign of that is that, we kind of

1362
00:49:14.389 --> 00:49:16.949
- fell behind, you know, YouTube and what YouTube

1363
00:49:16.949 --> 00:49:19.190
- was doing, and now we're trying to catch

1364
00:49:19.190 --> 00:49:22.150
- up. Right? And I would apply that same

1365
00:49:22.150 --> 00:49:25.609
- thought process to AI and how it's integrating

1366
00:49:25.670 --> 00:49:28.605
- into the the fabric of podcasting and the

1367
00:49:28.605 --> 00:49:30.385
- fabric of new media now.

1368
00:49:31.324 --> 00:49:33.485
- What are you seeing these network operators? What

1369
00:49:33.485 --> 00:49:34.785
- are they saying about AI?

1370
00:49:36.204 --> 00:49:37.905
- It's really funny. So

1371
00:49:38.859 --> 00:49:40.619
- this is really timely, and I believe, like,

1372
00:49:40.619 --> 00:49:42.699
- you know, life is about time relationships. You

1373
00:49:42.699 --> 00:49:44.380
- have no clue where conversation is gonna take

1374
00:49:44.380 --> 00:49:46.159
- you. So I think it was

1375
00:49:46.460 --> 00:49:46.960
- yesterday.

1376
00:49:47.579 --> 00:49:49.980
- I was talking to a customer of ours

1377
00:49:49.980 --> 00:49:50.719
- in the RSS,

1378
00:49:51.260 --> 00:49:51.760
- community,

1379
00:49:52.704 --> 00:49:55.045
- And they've got an AI podcast.

1380
00:49:55.905 --> 00:49:58.944
- Oh, it's all all AI generated? It's it's

1381
00:49:59.905 --> 00:50:02.065
- I don't know the full story if it's

1382
00:50:02.065 --> 00:50:04.385
- her stories that are written or if she's

1383
00:50:04.385 --> 00:50:06.625
- using AI to write these stories, then using

1384
00:50:06.625 --> 00:50:08.559
- AI to create the voices.

1385
00:50:09.260 --> 00:50:12.400
- And I'm like and and so we're we're

1386
00:50:12.539 --> 00:50:14.960
- we're messaging back and forth over text. And

1387
00:50:15.420 --> 00:50:17.739
- I'm like, I don't understand why anyone would

1388
00:50:17.739 --> 00:50:20.780
- wanna listen to this AI generated voice to

1389
00:50:20.780 --> 00:50:22.994
- help them sleep because that's what her this

1390
00:50:22.994 --> 00:50:24.054
- specific show is.

1391
00:50:24.434 --> 00:50:27.414
- And she's like, Greg, there's actually research. There's

1392
00:50:27.554 --> 00:50:30.114
- actual people that are saying they'd much rather

1393
00:50:30.114 --> 00:50:31.815
- listen to the monotone

1394
00:50:32.674 --> 00:50:34.694
- AI voice for sleep than

1395
00:50:35.139 --> 00:50:36.900
- the voice of you and I or or

1396
00:50:36.900 --> 00:50:39.219
- maybe, you know, a voice for radio.

1397
00:50:40.099 --> 00:50:42.179
- And and she sent me the the research

1398
00:50:42.179 --> 00:50:44.579
- and and it was it's mind boggling to

1399
00:50:44.579 --> 00:50:45.559
- go like, woah,

1400
00:50:46.500 --> 00:50:49.699
- that is interesting that a human would much

1401
00:50:49.699 --> 00:50:50.840
- rather connect

1402
00:50:51.195 --> 00:50:53.375
- for sleep to that AI voice

1403
00:50:53.914 --> 00:50:54.974
- than a realistic

1404
00:50:55.275 --> 00:50:57.914
- human voice because this literally sounds like the

1405
00:50:57.914 --> 00:51:00.155
- notebook LM voice. Right? And we're like, you

1406
00:51:00.155 --> 00:51:01.934
- know, that voice when you hear it.

1407
00:51:02.875 --> 00:51:05.739
- So to hear that, and to hear the

1408
00:51:05.739 --> 00:51:07.980
- stats that are being that are coming out

1409
00:51:07.980 --> 00:51:09.039
- and thinking about

1410
00:51:09.900 --> 00:51:10.400
- that,

1411
00:51:11.099 --> 00:51:12.960
- it's alarming. It's sad,

1412
00:51:13.900 --> 00:51:14.880
- in many respects.

1413
00:51:16.219 --> 00:51:18.380
- That's a that's a humid we can go

1414
00:51:18.380 --> 00:51:18.880
- down.

1415
00:51:19.684 --> 00:51:21.605
- But to answer your core question of like,

1416
00:51:21.605 --> 00:51:23.925
- what are networks doing? I'm seeing it across

1417
00:51:23.925 --> 00:51:24.585
- the board.

1418
00:51:25.525 --> 00:51:28.244
- Whether it is using AI for ads, whether

1419
00:51:28.244 --> 00:51:30.425
- it's using AI for podcasts,

1420
00:51:31.860 --> 00:51:33.619
- the standard, you know, how do we just

1421
00:51:33.619 --> 00:51:35.480
- create better scripts and take

1422
00:51:35.940 --> 00:51:37.860
- a I mean, I use AI. I use

1423
00:51:37.860 --> 00:51:40.500
- Castmagic for my podcast. I record my intro

1424
00:51:40.500 --> 00:51:43.140
- and outro after I've recorded it. So, I'll

1425
00:51:43.140 --> 00:51:44.840
- run that podcast through Castmagic.

1426
00:51:45.275 --> 00:51:47.355
- I have a prompt going, hey, here's my

1427
00:51:47.355 --> 00:51:49.775
- intro, here's my outro. I'll make my modifications

1428
00:51:49.994 --> 00:51:52.015
- from there and then record afterwards.

1429
00:51:52.315 --> 00:51:54.474
- And and so there's so many different ways

1430
00:51:54.474 --> 00:51:56.235
- you can use it from a script writing,

1431
00:51:56.235 --> 00:51:56.735
- from

1432
00:51:57.035 --> 00:51:58.094
- social, but

1433
00:51:58.394 --> 00:51:59.855
- I'm seeing it across the board.

1434
00:52:01.119 --> 00:52:02.480
- And then I'm seeing, of course, a lot

1435
00:52:02.480 --> 00:52:03.539
- of AI networks.

1436
00:52:04.320 --> 00:52:06.480
- Like, the big name, I won't list it

1437
00:52:06.480 --> 00:52:08.260
- because there's no reason to,

1438
00:52:09.920 --> 00:52:12.820
- is is the pinnacle of that.

1439
00:52:13.295 --> 00:52:15.295
- But there's so many networks. I mean, we

1440
00:52:15.375 --> 00:52:17.295
- once we launched rss.com

1441
00:52:17.295 --> 00:52:18.275
- launched our API,

1442
00:52:18.655 --> 00:52:20.515
- I saw how many AI podcasts

1443
00:52:21.135 --> 00:52:23.695
- started creating on our network plan because for

1444
00:52:23.695 --> 00:52:26.035
- $20, you can host as many shows, and

1445
00:52:26.099 --> 00:52:27.619
- there you go. And so they've got the

1446
00:52:27.619 --> 00:52:29.380
- API and how many of those shows are

1447
00:52:29.380 --> 00:52:30.760
- now just able to do

1448
00:52:31.059 --> 00:52:32.680
- generic AI content.

1449
00:52:33.539 --> 00:52:35.460
- You can either gamify it. And so this

1450
00:52:35.460 --> 00:52:37.079
- reminds me back to the

1451
00:52:37.700 --> 00:52:39.400
- early two thousands where

1452
00:52:39.714 --> 00:52:42.054
- pod or not podcast, websites were just creating,

1453
00:52:43.155 --> 00:52:46.275
- whatever articles they want. They I was selling,

1454
00:52:46.514 --> 00:52:48.034
- pay per click at the time. So, you

1455
00:52:48.034 --> 00:52:50.034
- know, pay a dollar to drive traffic to

1456
00:52:50.034 --> 00:52:52.675
- a website that's got $10 worth of ads

1457
00:52:52.675 --> 00:52:54.549
- on there, and you just arbitrage it. So

1458
00:52:54.549 --> 00:52:56.250
- we're seeing the arbitrate arbitration.

1459
00:52:57.029 --> 00:52:58.409
- I don't even know if that's a word

1460
00:52:58.789 --> 00:53:00.789
- of that with podcasting right now because it's

1461
00:53:00.789 --> 00:53:03.109
- easy to go to an Amaze, to go

1462
00:53:03.109 --> 00:53:04.089
- to a Mo Pod,

1463
00:53:04.469 --> 00:53:05.130
- buy traffic,

1464
00:53:05.429 --> 00:53:06.250
- use bots,

1465
00:53:06.949 --> 00:53:07.849
- and and

1466
00:53:08.505 --> 00:53:11.724
- generate revenue by I'll pay this company X,

1467
00:53:11.944 --> 00:53:14.525
- I'll make X plus Y. And, and

1468
00:53:14.824 --> 00:53:17.304
- you do that at scale. That that's exactly

1469
00:53:17.304 --> 00:53:18.605
- an easy thing to do.

1470
00:53:19.065 --> 00:53:20.125
- Yeah. I love it.

1471
00:53:20.984 --> 00:53:21.804
- I would agree

1472
00:53:22.359 --> 00:53:24.839
- in general and even beyond what you're saying

1473
00:53:24.839 --> 00:53:25.339
- about,

1474
00:53:26.280 --> 00:53:29.500
- how, how people are increasingly trying to use

1475
00:53:29.559 --> 00:53:30.059
- AI

1476
00:53:30.679 --> 00:53:31.739
- in their content

1477
00:53:32.039 --> 00:53:35.019
- and their production and their workflows and the,

1478
00:53:35.480 --> 00:53:36.780
- the agentic workflow.

1479
00:53:38.285 --> 00:53:40.765
- The, the last episode that I did really,

1480
00:53:41.325 --> 00:53:43.825
- did a deep dive on agentic workflows

1481
00:53:44.364 --> 00:53:45.664
- when it comes to,

1482
00:53:46.925 --> 00:53:48.545
- you know, not necessarily

1483
00:53:48.845 --> 00:53:52.144
- creating the content entirely, but to augment,

1484
00:53:54.000 --> 00:53:56.579
- its production and distribution and

1485
00:53:56.960 --> 00:54:00.320
- social media and all these layers of things

1486
00:54:00.320 --> 00:54:02.719
- that, humans have typically had to do. And

1487
00:54:02.719 --> 00:54:05.140
- that's, you know, typically why we've seen,

1488
00:54:06.559 --> 00:54:08.099
- larger creators hire,

1489
00:54:08.664 --> 00:54:10.264
- you know, good size teams, you know, like

1490
00:54:10.264 --> 00:54:12.105
- a Steven Bartlett with the diary of CEO

1491
00:54:12.105 --> 00:54:13.864
- is a good example. He's got like 60

1492
00:54:13.864 --> 00:54:15.944
- people that work for him to produce that

1493
00:54:15.944 --> 00:54:18.664
- show. And he spends anywhere from 40 to

1494
00:54:18.664 --> 00:54:19.944
- $100,000

1495
00:54:19.944 --> 00:54:21.644
- on each episode that he produces.

1496
00:54:22.190 --> 00:54:25.230
- Cause he's making maybe 4 or $500,000

1497
00:54:25.230 --> 00:54:26.610
- on every episode he publishes.

1498
00:54:27.150 --> 00:54:28.450
- So, you know, it's,

1499
00:54:28.829 --> 00:54:31.410
- it's the economics of it that is pushing

1500
00:54:31.470 --> 00:54:31.970
- this.

1501
00:54:32.750 --> 00:54:34.690
- Is a Steven Bartlett going to,

1502
00:54:35.105 --> 00:54:36.385
- you know, two years from now, is he

1503
00:54:36.385 --> 00:54:37.844
- gonna fire all of his

1504
00:54:38.144 --> 00:54:40.885
- staff and just have, you know, 15

1505
00:54:41.424 --> 00:54:43.984
- agents that are doing all those processes for

1506
00:54:43.984 --> 00:54:44.484
- him?

1507
00:54:45.105 --> 00:54:47.045
- I, I, I think it's a possibility,

1508
00:54:47.739 --> 00:54:49.200
- that that could, could happen.

1509
00:54:50.219 --> 00:54:52.460
- I think it's still early for the podcast

1510
00:54:52.460 --> 00:54:53.440
- space to

1511
00:54:53.980 --> 00:54:55.280
- understand and embrace

1512
00:54:55.579 --> 00:54:56.400
- to some degree,

1513
00:54:56.940 --> 00:54:57.760
- you know, agentic,

1514
00:54:58.219 --> 00:54:58.719
- type

1515
00:54:59.099 --> 00:55:02.565
- agents and, and AI technology. And I'm trying

1516
00:55:02.565 --> 00:55:04.025
- to go all in on it and

1517
00:55:04.484 --> 00:55:06.244
- learn, you know, what's going on with it

1518
00:55:06.244 --> 00:55:07.625
- because I think it's transformational.

1519
00:55:08.804 --> 00:55:11.764
- But the AI generated stuff is really got

1520
00:55:11.764 --> 00:55:13.144
- people spun up and

1521
00:55:13.525 --> 00:55:16.164
- worried and concerned about, you know, like you

1522
00:55:16.164 --> 00:55:16.905
- said, humanity.

1523
00:55:18.069 --> 00:55:20.710
- You know, where does where does humanity fit

1524
00:55:20.710 --> 00:55:21.449
- into this

1525
00:55:21.829 --> 00:55:22.329
- this

1526
00:55:22.949 --> 00:55:26.569
- emerging ecosystem that is happening around AI content?

1527
00:55:27.030 --> 00:55:28.569
- And there's a growing backlash,

1528
00:55:28.869 --> 00:55:31.175
- right, that's been building, you know, humans feel

1529
00:55:31.175 --> 00:55:33.775
- threatened by it, on one hand, and it's

1530
00:55:34.054 --> 00:55:34.554
- there's

1531
00:55:34.934 --> 00:55:36.795
- that's a rational thought process

1532
00:55:37.094 --> 00:55:38.074
- to some degree.

1533
00:55:38.695 --> 00:55:41.574
- It can become a little irrational, but that's

1534
00:55:41.574 --> 00:55:43.835
- that that's kind of a progression that happens.

1535
00:55:44.660 --> 00:55:45.559
- But it's,

1536
00:55:46.180 --> 00:55:48.360
- yeah, it's really interesting to see how

1537
00:55:49.059 --> 00:55:51.460
- AI is going to impact all this stuff.

1538
00:55:51.460 --> 00:55:53.380
- And, you know, and the, the other layer

1539
00:55:53.380 --> 00:55:54.599
- to this too, is,

1540
00:55:55.059 --> 00:55:56.820
- is AI is going to be the first

1541
00:55:56.820 --> 00:55:57.559
- one to,

1542
00:55:58.099 --> 00:56:00.554
- sees your content, your human content, and it's

1543
00:56:00.554 --> 00:56:02.394
- going to evaluate it, and it's going to

1544
00:56:02.394 --> 00:56:05.114
- decide who gets to see it. Yes. And

1545
00:56:05.114 --> 00:56:05.855
- the pathways

1546
00:56:06.155 --> 00:56:09.295
- for consumption are increasingly going to be through

1547
00:56:09.835 --> 00:56:10.734
- AI interfaces.

1548
00:56:11.914 --> 00:56:14.175
- So this, the age of

1549
00:56:14.660 --> 00:56:17.539
- apple podcasts in the certain form it is

1550
00:56:17.539 --> 00:56:18.039
- today,

1551
00:56:18.340 --> 00:56:19.079
- or Spotify,

1552
00:56:20.019 --> 00:56:21.719
- or even to some degree, YouTube,

1553
00:56:22.500 --> 00:56:24.660
- may not last too much longer.

1554
00:56:25.460 --> 00:56:27.860
- The, the, and that's another layer on this

1555
00:56:27.860 --> 00:56:29.400
- too, is that we're going to be,

1556
00:56:30.005 --> 00:56:32.105
- you know, enslaved by the algorithm.

1557
00:56:32.485 --> 00:56:35.224
- And that's really AI is an algorithm.

1558
00:56:35.684 --> 00:56:38.644
- So it's there's not much of a daylight

1559
00:56:38.644 --> 00:56:40.425
- between AI and algorithms.

1560
00:56:40.885 --> 00:56:43.525
- So And, I mean, for anyone that's listening,

1561
00:56:43.525 --> 00:56:45.510
- I'll let you know. I've lost two jobs

1562
00:56:45.570 --> 00:56:46.789
- in a sense because

1563
00:56:47.489 --> 00:56:49.670
- social media companies change their algorithms.

1564
00:56:51.010 --> 00:56:53.349
- Used to be at the largest publisher

1565
00:56:53.650 --> 00:56:54.630
- of Facebook content.

1566
00:56:55.250 --> 00:56:56.630
- Yep. 2017,

1567
00:56:56.849 --> 00:56:59.090
- you know, I always market as the Cambridge

1568
00:56:59.090 --> 00:57:01.184
- Analytica even that. Yeah. I remember that. That's

1569
00:57:01.184 --> 00:57:02.704
- not it, you know, like, that wasn't a

1570
00:57:02.704 --> 00:57:04.224
- reason but, like, that was a big thing.

1571
00:57:04.224 --> 00:57:05.985
- Facebook changed the algorithm and we went from

1572
00:57:05.985 --> 00:57:08.065
- 5,000,000,000 views a month to a billion views.

1573
00:57:08.065 --> 00:57:10.224
- I mean, monetizing that, you're like, there goes

1574
00:57:10.224 --> 00:57:12.405
- the company. Now, the company, of course, rebuilt

1575
00:57:12.465 --> 00:57:14.244
- but, like, they had to let people go.

1576
00:57:14.889 --> 00:57:15.949
- We had the largest

1577
00:57:16.409 --> 00:57:17.309
- Pinterest page

1578
00:57:17.929 --> 00:57:20.250
- and I was doing one post would do

1579
00:57:20.250 --> 00:57:23.609
- 3,000,000 organic views a week. Pinterest changed the

1580
00:57:23.609 --> 00:57:26.030
- algorithm and went down to 300,000.

1581
00:57:26.409 --> 00:57:28.809
- I couldn't sell I could easily sell 3,000,000,

1582
00:57:29.315 --> 00:57:31.075
- because everyone's like, woah, one post and I

1583
00:57:31.075 --> 00:57:33.175
- get 3,000,000 views organically? Incredible.

1584
00:57:33.474 --> 00:57:34.614
- 300,000?

1585
00:57:34.835 --> 00:57:36.535
- Not so much. So

1586
00:57:37.155 --> 00:57:38.114
- it's a very different,

1587
00:57:38.914 --> 00:57:41.075
- vibe. So if we are then always tied

1588
00:57:41.075 --> 00:57:43.155
- to an algorithm, then that's a terrible thing.

1589
00:57:43.155 --> 00:57:43.755
- And then if we go back to your

1590
00:57:43.755 --> 00:57:43.844
- AI component here, I'm a people person. If

1591
00:57:43.844 --> 00:57:44.614
- you can't listen to this,

1592
00:57:44.989 --> 00:57:45.730
- component here,

1593
00:57:46.190 --> 00:57:47.250
- I'm a people person.

1594
00:57:47.789 --> 00:57:49.389
- If you can't listen to this, I talk

1595
00:57:49.389 --> 00:57:50.690
- for a living. I

1596
00:57:50.989 --> 00:57:54.369
- title is head relationships. I love talking. So,

1597
00:57:55.150 --> 00:57:56.909
- as much as I love the gorillas and

1598
00:57:56.909 --> 00:57:59.089
- going to see the gorillas live where

1599
00:57:59.574 --> 00:58:01.574
- you don't really see the band, it is

1600
00:58:01.574 --> 00:58:03.655
- the the the screen and they've got the

1601
00:58:03.655 --> 00:58:05.355
- entire animation there.

1602
00:58:05.735 --> 00:58:07.974
- There's something about, a, going to a networking

1603
00:58:07.974 --> 00:58:10.375
- event. There's something about going to meet a

1604
00:58:10.375 --> 00:58:13.015
- podcaster, to meet an artist, to meet an

1605
00:58:13.015 --> 00:58:13.515
- experience.

1606
00:58:15.039 --> 00:58:16.900
- I can't imagine going to

1607
00:58:17.279 --> 00:58:19.839
- a live podcast recording when it's not really

1608
00:58:19.839 --> 00:58:22.659
- a live podcast recording and it's these virtual

1609
00:58:22.719 --> 00:58:23.219
- hologramic

1610
00:58:23.839 --> 00:58:24.339
- voices.

1611
00:58:26.000 --> 00:58:28.335
- And something about that just feels like you're

1612
00:58:28.335 --> 00:58:30.414
- bringing the community together. It's like, okay, all

1613
00:58:30.414 --> 00:58:32.894
- of us who love this person, this person,

1614
00:58:32.894 --> 00:58:33.635
- quote unquote,

1615
00:58:34.494 --> 00:58:35.795
- is there, but it's like

1616
00:58:36.175 --> 00:58:37.855
- and so that's why I use gorillas because,

1617
00:58:37.855 --> 00:58:39.695
- hey, they are massive, but they are not

1618
00:58:40.190 --> 00:58:42.190
- no one really knew who the voices were

1619
00:58:42.190 --> 00:58:44.590
- behind them because we're just used to the

1620
00:58:44.590 --> 00:58:45.090
- animations.

1621
00:58:45.550 --> 00:58:48.030
- Sure. And so we are seeing a lot

1622
00:58:48.030 --> 00:58:49.550
- more. You and I both know a couple

1623
00:58:49.550 --> 00:58:52.030
- of companies that are doing, you know, AI

1624
00:58:52.030 --> 00:58:52.530
- video,

1625
00:58:53.974 --> 00:58:56.695
- to match just the vocal side of the

1626
00:58:56.695 --> 00:58:58.375
- audio components. So it's like, hey, I don't

1627
00:58:58.375 --> 00:58:59.355
- wanna do video

1628
00:58:59.815 --> 00:59:01.735
- on screen, but give me this. And they're

1629
00:59:01.735 --> 00:59:02.715
- able to do that.

1630
00:59:04.054 --> 00:59:06.074
- AI video podcasts are coming.

1631
00:59:06.375 --> 00:59:06.875
- Yeah.

1632
00:59:07.389 --> 00:59:07.889
- We

1633
00:59:08.190 --> 00:59:09.809
- we just haven't seen it yet.

1634
00:59:10.190 --> 00:59:11.250
- So it's

1635
00:59:11.789 --> 00:59:14.349
- But there's something to be, like, once again,

1636
00:59:14.349 --> 00:59:16.210
- the podcast I'm listening to right now,

1637
00:59:16.750 --> 00:59:19.550
- if it was AI journalist, which you could

1638
00:59:19.630 --> 00:59:20.130
- technically,

1639
00:59:20.590 --> 00:59:22.449
- you could probably create this show

1640
00:59:23.114 --> 00:59:25.914
- to most degree, maybe not today, but pretty

1641
00:59:25.914 --> 00:59:27.934
- soon AI. The difference is

1642
00:59:28.795 --> 00:59:30.795
- the stories that are being told on it

1643
00:59:30.795 --> 00:59:31.295
- where

1644
00:59:31.835 --> 00:59:32.574
- it is,

1645
00:59:33.195 --> 00:59:34.875
- I met my buddy and my buddy told

1646
00:59:34.875 --> 00:59:36.449
- me this and I met this and met

1647
00:59:36.449 --> 00:59:37.969
- this and that. And so it's like a

1648
00:59:37.969 --> 00:59:40.530
- humanistic side of it. You could probably tell

1649
00:59:40.530 --> 00:59:43.170
- the story without that humanistic side, but something

1650
00:59:43.170 --> 00:59:44.869
- about that humanistic side

1651
00:59:45.650 --> 00:59:48.210
- makes the story far better than what actually

1652
00:59:48.210 --> 00:59:50.719
- the story ends up being. And and

1653
00:59:51.385 --> 00:59:53.945
- Sure. I will want that. And then the

1654
00:59:53.945 --> 00:59:55.545
- people are like, I don't need that kind

1655
00:59:55.545 --> 00:59:58.105
- of story. Just give me the insights. Is

1656
00:59:58.105 --> 01:00:00.905
- this true? Is it false? What happened? Break

1657
01:00:00.905 --> 01:00:03.485
- it down into a thirty minute episode.

1658
01:00:04.039 --> 01:00:05.420
- Give me the facts, Jack,

1659
01:00:05.719 --> 01:00:07.900
- episode. Right? Is that what it is? Yeah.

1660
01:00:08.039 --> 01:00:09.480
- Well, that's what AI is gonna be good

1661
01:00:09.480 --> 01:00:09.980
- at.

1662
01:00:10.599 --> 01:00:12.519
- It's gonna be good at giving you, you

1663
01:00:12.519 --> 01:00:13.420
- know, some

1664
01:00:14.119 --> 01:00:16.539
- some version of the facts of sorts,

1665
01:00:17.400 --> 01:00:19.034
- to be realistic about it.

1666
01:00:19.755 --> 01:00:20.494
- You know,

1667
01:00:20.795 --> 01:00:23.054
- AI is not known for, you know,

1668
01:00:23.355 --> 01:00:26.014
- it's it's candor or it's a transparency

1669
01:00:26.315 --> 01:00:27.275
- of sorts, but,

1670
01:00:27.994 --> 01:00:29.454
- that's a whole nother discussion

1671
01:00:29.755 --> 01:00:31.855
- on AI, right? It's,

1672
01:00:32.589 --> 01:00:34.989
- I do think that it's, it's going to

1673
01:00:34.989 --> 01:00:35.969
- have a revolutionary

1674
01:00:36.510 --> 01:00:39.569
- impact on what we're doing here. And,

1675
01:00:40.109 --> 01:00:40.769
- you know,

1676
01:00:41.949 --> 01:00:43.550
- I'll ask you this question. Do you ever

1677
01:00:43.550 --> 01:00:45.250
- see yourself creating a,

1678
01:00:45.644 --> 01:00:47.344
- a, a Greg Wasserman,

1679
01:00:47.965 --> 01:00:48.784
- AI clone?

1680
01:00:49.085 --> 01:00:50.065
- Like you're doing,

1681
01:00:50.765 --> 01:00:52.065
- Well, I haven't done it yet.

1682
01:00:52.925 --> 01:00:55.025
- No, no. Mark Zuckerberg is doing

1683
01:00:55.365 --> 01:00:55.865
- or,

1684
01:00:56.204 --> 01:00:58.670
- yeah. Yeah. But, but I do think it's

1685
01:00:58.670 --> 01:01:01.470
- an interesting experiment to do. And it's,

1686
01:01:02.349 --> 01:01:04.530
- you know, how close are we to

1687
01:01:05.150 --> 01:01:06.210
- being indistinguishable?

1688
01:01:06.590 --> 01:01:08.910
- And I've had this conversation on past episodes

1689
01:01:08.910 --> 01:01:11.410
- of this podcast or the show.

1690
01:01:12.505 --> 01:01:14.505
- We are getting very close. If you look

1691
01:01:14.505 --> 01:01:16.364
- at the latest models

1692
01:01:16.744 --> 01:01:18.824
- that are out there, the, the Hey, Jen

1693
01:01:18.824 --> 01:01:19.885
- and, and,

1694
01:01:20.585 --> 01:01:22.425
- and some of the models that are available

1695
01:01:22.425 --> 01:01:22.925
- through

1696
01:01:23.704 --> 01:01:24.204
- Gemini,

1697
01:01:25.160 --> 01:01:25.660
- there's,

1698
01:01:26.360 --> 01:01:28.140
- we're getting very close to

1699
01:01:28.599 --> 01:01:29.900
- not being able to tell,

1700
01:01:30.599 --> 01:01:32.760
- and be able to create different versions of

1701
01:01:32.760 --> 01:01:33.500
- our avatars

1702
01:01:33.880 --> 01:01:34.539
- very quickly,

1703
01:01:35.400 --> 01:01:38.039
- that will put us in different clothes, put

1704
01:01:38.039 --> 01:01:39.099
- us in different hairstyles,

1705
01:01:39.905 --> 01:01:42.724
- have us with hats on and without hats.

1706
01:01:43.824 --> 01:01:46.864
- And we can just interchange these and make

1707
01:01:46.864 --> 01:01:48.164
- them, you know?

1708
01:01:49.264 --> 01:01:50.784
- So, I mean, I think we're just coming

1709
01:01:50.784 --> 01:01:52.545
- into a weird era. Right? And I think

1710
01:01:52.545 --> 01:01:53.744
- at the end of the day, it's about

1711
01:01:53.744 --> 01:01:54.239
- trust.

1712
01:01:55.199 --> 01:01:56.900
- Are you disclosing this stuff,

1713
01:01:57.760 --> 01:02:00.000
- that you're doing this? I think we're entering

1714
01:02:00.000 --> 01:02:00.900
- a time where,

1715
01:02:01.920 --> 01:02:04.019
- identifying your content as human

1716
01:02:04.559 --> 01:02:07.335
- hosted content or human content is gonna be

1717
01:02:07.335 --> 01:02:10.554
- more important than labeling it as AI content.

1718
01:02:10.775 --> 01:02:13.414
- I love that. I mean, you've you and

1719
01:02:13.414 --> 01:02:15.094
- I both probably read the same trades, but

1720
01:02:15.094 --> 01:02:17.094
- I love what Dan Kendall from, the Health

1721
01:02:17.094 --> 01:02:19.574
- Podcast Library and Health Podcast Network said. It's

1722
01:02:19.574 --> 01:02:21.480
- like, hold on. If this is medical and

1723
01:02:21.480 --> 01:02:24.059
- your AI posing is medical, that should be,

1724
01:02:24.599 --> 01:02:27.079
- a, taken down or Yeah. You should notified.

1725
01:02:27.079 --> 01:02:28.920
- Yeah. Call call the AI a doctor there.

1726
01:02:28.920 --> 01:02:31.880
- I mean, even when you're watching a a

1727
01:02:31.880 --> 01:02:34.094
- commercial and the bottom fine print, this is

1728
01:02:34.175 --> 01:02:36.835
- a portray actor portrayal of a doctor. So

1729
01:02:37.295 --> 01:02:38.755
- if if the

1730
01:02:39.454 --> 01:02:41.375
- advertising that, though. I mean, Greg, a lot

1731
01:02:41.375 --> 01:02:43.295
- lot of people will see that disclaimer in

1732
01:02:43.295 --> 01:02:44.815
- the show notes. I mean, how many people

1733
01:02:44.815 --> 01:02:46.815
- read show notes? How many people can read

1734
01:02:46.815 --> 01:02:48.655
- the fine print, but at least it's there.

1735
01:02:48.655 --> 01:02:50.470
- Right? So Well, it is there, but it

1736
01:02:50.470 --> 01:02:52.789
- probably needs to be on the screen. Yes.

1737
01:02:52.789 --> 01:02:53.369
- So I've

1738
01:02:53.910 --> 01:02:55.470
- you know, if I'm using AI in any

1739
01:02:55.470 --> 01:02:57.289
- of the visuals like I did with the

1740
01:02:58.070 --> 01:03:00.390
- the the intro to this show, I did

1741
01:03:00.390 --> 01:03:02.230
- put a little bug in there that says

1742
01:03:02.230 --> 01:03:03.750
- AI. That was AI? I thought that was

1743
01:03:03.750 --> 01:03:05.945
- a real person. I'm joking. Well, you know,

1744
01:03:06.325 --> 01:03:08.565
- it, it certainly didn't sound like me, but

1745
01:03:08.565 --> 01:03:11.045
- it kinda had a likeness to me. Yeah.

1746
01:03:11.445 --> 01:03:13.465
- And it plays well on the audio side.

1747
01:03:13.605 --> 01:03:15.445
- So that that's the thing. And that that's

1748
01:03:15.445 --> 01:03:16.805
- the only thing we haven't really talked about

1749
01:03:16.805 --> 01:03:19.945
- too, is, is this tension now exists between

1750
01:03:20.360 --> 01:03:21.980
- being a video first grader.

1751
01:03:22.920 --> 01:03:24.440
- And I'm sure a lot of these networks

1752
01:03:24.440 --> 01:03:26.519
- are dealing with this issue right now, too,

1753
01:03:26.519 --> 01:03:28.619
- is that as we move into this HLS

1754
01:03:28.679 --> 01:03:29.980
- era in podcasting,

1755
01:03:30.599 --> 01:03:33.179
- you know, there's going to be increasing consumption

1756
01:03:33.480 --> 01:03:34.460
- of audio

1757
01:03:34.974 --> 01:03:36.275
- that comes out of the video

1758
01:03:36.815 --> 01:03:39.635
- as a replacement for a separate MP screen

1759
01:03:39.855 --> 01:03:40.835
- experience. Right.

1760
01:03:41.775 --> 01:03:43.775
- And I do I have noticed that a

1761
01:03:43.775 --> 01:03:46.094
- couple of platforms, I think Captivate was one

1762
01:03:46.094 --> 01:03:48.329
- of them that has built in a separate

1763
01:03:48.329 --> 01:03:50.569
- RSS feed in their account that you can

1764
01:03:50.569 --> 01:03:52.029
- publish audio into,

1765
01:03:53.289 --> 01:03:55.389
- versus the HLS stuff.

1766
01:03:56.170 --> 01:03:56.670
- So

1767
01:03:56.969 --> 01:03:59.130
- it's going back to what this show has

1768
01:03:59.130 --> 01:04:00.969
- been doing for fourteen years is I've got

1769
01:04:00.969 --> 01:04:02.589
- an audio feed and a video

1770
01:04:04.144 --> 01:04:07.525
- feed. So the whole HLS thing didn't entirely

1771
01:04:07.585 --> 01:04:10.085
- solve that dilemma. Right. It was,

1772
01:04:10.385 --> 01:04:12.304
- you know, so if you want to create

1773
01:04:12.304 --> 01:04:14.625
- a different audio experience for your show, which

1774
01:04:14.625 --> 01:04:16.085
- is what I do with this show,

1775
01:04:16.530 --> 01:04:18.469
- I do a deeper edit. I do

1776
01:04:18.929 --> 01:04:21.410
- other types of transitions and things like that

1777
01:04:21.410 --> 01:04:23.010
- in the audio than I do from the

1778
01:04:23.010 --> 01:04:25.429
- video, because the video is video, right?

1779
01:04:25.890 --> 01:04:27.429
- Audio always takes a backseat

1780
01:04:27.809 --> 01:04:28.630
- on video.

1781
01:04:29.010 --> 01:04:29.510
- So

1782
01:04:29.905 --> 01:04:31.585
- it's kind of hard to avoid it though.

1783
01:04:31.585 --> 01:04:32.724
- I think Justin

1784
01:04:33.425 --> 01:04:34.965
- Jackson from transistor

1785
01:04:35.265 --> 01:04:36.325
- is trying to

1786
01:04:36.704 --> 01:04:39.585
- figure that, that issue out with his new

1787
01:04:39.585 --> 01:04:40.085
- show.

1788
01:04:40.465 --> 01:04:40.785
- But,

1789
01:04:41.425 --> 01:04:42.405
- I think it's possible

1790
01:04:42.704 --> 01:04:44.065
- to do that, but you have to be

1791
01:04:44.065 --> 01:04:45.445
- very conscious and very

1792
01:04:46.199 --> 01:04:48.280
- deliberate about it in order to If we

1793
01:04:48.280 --> 01:04:51.079
- are a Right. If if new creators that

1794
01:04:51.079 --> 01:04:53.579
- are coming out don't know the difference, therefore,

1795
01:04:53.639 --> 01:04:55.320
- I don't think they're gonna care. If we

1796
01:04:55.320 --> 01:04:56.039
- look at,

1797
01:04:56.519 --> 01:04:57.980
- Tidal, I think, right,

1798
01:04:58.359 --> 01:05:00.914
- was it Jay z's platform where it was

1799
01:05:00.914 --> 01:05:03.235
- supposed to be a music that was high

1800
01:05:03.235 --> 01:05:05.735
- def and how many people were paying attention

1801
01:05:05.795 --> 01:05:07.255
- and and focusing on that?

1802
01:05:07.715 --> 01:05:09.875
- There's there's always gonna be a subset. You

1803
01:05:09.875 --> 01:05:11.414
- just have to figure out the economics

1804
01:05:11.715 --> 01:05:12.215
- there.

1805
01:05:12.750 --> 01:05:15.469
- And I think if more creators right now

1806
01:05:15.469 --> 01:05:17.650
- don't understand the difference or the value

1807
01:05:18.030 --> 01:05:20.110
- or we're so focused and we're pushing people

1808
01:05:20.110 --> 01:05:21.010
- to do video,

1809
01:05:21.710 --> 01:05:24.269
- you're gonna lose that component, but there will

1810
01:05:24.269 --> 01:05:25.489
- still be a subset.

1811
01:05:26.214 --> 01:05:27.174
- And I mean, I look at how many

1812
01:05:27.174 --> 01:05:29.094
- of my creators at rss.com

1813
01:05:29.094 --> 01:05:30.775
- are like, I don't do social. I'm like,

1814
01:05:30.775 --> 01:05:32.375
- How do you grow? Well, there's other ways

1815
01:05:32.375 --> 01:05:34.554
- to grow. It just becomes a harder struggle,

1816
01:05:35.335 --> 01:05:37.335
- even if that's not your focus of growth

1817
01:05:37.335 --> 01:05:39.594
- but you just want to have that conversation

1818
01:05:39.655 --> 01:05:41.675
- with the guests that you're bringing on. So,

1819
01:05:41.889 --> 01:05:42.710
- I think

1820
01:05:43.329 --> 01:05:45.650
- we'll play no matter what, we're always gonna

1821
01:05:45.650 --> 01:05:47.109
- continue to play to these algorithms.

1822
01:05:47.809 --> 01:05:49.650
- It's it's up to us as creators to

1823
01:05:49.650 --> 01:05:51.730
- decide, do I wanna play into this? Do

1824
01:05:51.730 --> 01:05:53.170
- I have to play the game? Or how

1825
01:05:53.170 --> 01:05:54.929
- do I play this game? I think from

1826
01:05:54.929 --> 01:05:55.989
- a network standpoint,

1827
01:05:57.105 --> 01:05:58.644
- each network is operating

1828
01:05:58.945 --> 01:06:00.965
- in a very different space of understanding.

1829
01:06:01.664 --> 01:06:03.125
- Is this the game I'm playing?

1830
01:06:03.664 --> 01:06:05.505
- Or am I writing a manual? Look at,

1831
01:06:05.505 --> 01:06:07.125
- like, Marc Lecorre and OGGN,

1832
01:06:07.744 --> 01:06:09.985
- all owned and operated, all oil and gas

1833
01:06:09.985 --> 01:06:11.844
- shows, and he's making

1834
01:06:12.269 --> 01:06:14.510
- significant amount of money on doing live shows

1835
01:06:14.510 --> 01:06:17.550
- as well. So does he need to play

1836
01:06:17.550 --> 01:06:18.050
- into,

1837
01:06:18.989 --> 01:06:21.250
- some of the other sponsorship models that

1838
01:06:22.269 --> 01:06:25.090
- that a iHeart is is playing into? No.

1839
01:06:25.390 --> 01:06:25.890
- So,

1840
01:06:26.269 --> 01:06:27.329
- I think there's possibilities

1841
01:06:28.244 --> 01:06:30.404
- as the medium shifts, those that are staying

1842
01:06:30.404 --> 01:06:31.844
- on top of it, thanks to your show

1843
01:06:31.844 --> 01:06:34.105
- that are keeping people around the new medium,

1844
01:06:34.964 --> 01:06:36.184
- but also understanding

1845
01:06:37.525 --> 01:06:39.844
- is this aligned with what I need to

1846
01:06:39.844 --> 01:06:42.105
- do? Is this aligned with my values?

1847
01:06:43.150 --> 01:06:45.150
- And and I think a lot of the

1848
01:06:45.150 --> 01:06:46.849
- shows that I've talked to so far,

1849
01:06:47.469 --> 01:06:49.650
- they're community value based

1850
01:06:50.510 --> 01:06:51.250
- as opposed

1851
01:06:52.269 --> 01:06:53.809
- to how do we just maximize

1852
01:06:54.190 --> 01:06:56.130
- our core revenue with ads.

1853
01:06:56.765 --> 01:06:58.844
- Yeah. I hope that we move into an

1854
01:06:58.844 --> 01:07:01.324
- era here as we've we've kind of shifted

1855
01:07:01.324 --> 01:07:01.824
- to

1856
01:07:02.525 --> 01:07:05.565
- a significant amount of creators being video first,

1857
01:07:05.965 --> 01:07:09.644
- that we see the audio first creators really

1858
01:07:09.644 --> 01:07:11.265
- double down on what they're doing,

1859
01:07:11.789 --> 01:07:13.090
- and, and really

1860
01:07:13.390 --> 01:07:13.890
- increasingly

1861
01:07:14.349 --> 01:07:16.530
- create compelling audio experiences

1862
01:07:17.469 --> 01:07:20.349
- in their audio feeds. So they can, they

1863
01:07:20.349 --> 01:07:22.670
- can still stand out right in a way

1864
01:07:22.670 --> 01:07:24.910
- that we'll be able to compete against the

1865
01:07:24.910 --> 01:07:26.954
- onslaught of video that we're going to see

1866
01:07:27.035 --> 01:07:27.855
- in the future.

1867
01:07:28.315 --> 01:07:30.715
- And that could come into areas like spatial

1868
01:07:30.715 --> 01:07:33.275
- audio. It could come into more advanced kind

1869
01:07:33.275 --> 01:07:35.215
- of models of how to produce

1870
01:07:36.075 --> 01:07:37.215
- compelling and

1871
01:07:37.594 --> 01:07:40.900
- interesting sounding audio experiences. And I hope that

1872
01:07:40.900 --> 01:07:42.820
- the industry kind of doubles down on that.

1873
01:07:42.820 --> 01:07:44.280
- And we actually

1874
01:07:45.300 --> 01:07:46.599
- need to do that. I think,

1875
01:07:47.619 --> 01:07:49.539
- unless we're going to go down this model

1876
01:07:49.539 --> 01:07:50.920
- of, of increasing

1877
01:07:51.219 --> 01:07:51.719
- sophistication

1878
01:07:52.019 --> 01:07:54.599
- around AI generated audio experiences,

1879
01:07:55.380 --> 01:07:55.880
- which,

1880
01:07:56.844 --> 01:07:58.305
- which is an interesting question.

1881
01:07:59.164 --> 01:08:00.925
- How far down that rabbit hole do we

1882
01:08:00.925 --> 01:08:02.445
- want to go and how far down that

1883
01:08:02.445 --> 01:08:04.525
- rabbit hole will the technology be able to

1884
01:08:04.525 --> 01:08:05.025
- take

1885
01:08:05.485 --> 01:08:07.105
- us? Because from what I'm seeing,

1886
01:08:08.739 --> 01:08:10.760
- it just in the next twelve months,

1887
01:08:11.940 --> 01:08:13.800
- we could see a very different landscape

1888
01:08:14.099 --> 01:08:15.320
- for content creation.

1889
01:08:15.780 --> 01:08:16.280
- And

1890
01:08:16.739 --> 01:08:18.840
- I, I worry about that because,

1891
01:08:19.300 --> 01:08:21.939
- you know, people are gonna get lost in

1892
01:08:21.939 --> 01:08:23.000
- the shuffle here

1893
01:08:23.935 --> 01:08:26.175
- because of that transition. Because of some of

1894
01:08:26.175 --> 01:08:27.695
- the stuff that I'm seeing out of Silicon

1895
01:08:27.695 --> 01:08:29.375
- Valley, and I'm going to be bringing onto

1896
01:08:29.375 --> 01:08:31.314
- the show for other people to see,

1897
01:08:32.414 --> 01:08:34.835
- we are coming into an era of,

1898
01:08:35.295 --> 01:08:35.795
- of

1899
01:08:36.255 --> 01:08:37.875
- full spectrum interactivity

1900
01:08:38.810 --> 01:08:39.310
- with

1901
01:08:39.770 --> 01:08:40.270
- audio

1902
01:08:40.650 --> 01:08:43.930
- experiences and increasingly video. So the audience can

1903
01:08:43.930 --> 01:08:44.430
- actually

1904
01:08:44.890 --> 01:08:46.670
- have their own unique experience

1905
01:08:47.690 --> 01:08:48.590
- in a show,

1906
01:08:49.289 --> 01:08:51.390
- right? It doesn't have to be this

1907
01:08:51.795 --> 01:08:54.695
- record and distribute to everyone. It can be

1908
01:08:55.475 --> 01:08:57.635
- a, a program that's interactive with a human

1909
01:08:57.635 --> 01:08:59.255
- audience, but is

1910
01:08:59.635 --> 01:09:00.135
- customized

1911
01:09:00.675 --> 01:09:02.215
- to every audience member.

1912
01:09:02.914 --> 01:09:03.814
- And so

1913
01:09:04.320 --> 01:09:06.640
- that's a whole different way of thinking about

1914
01:09:06.640 --> 01:09:09.280
- content. So which is what that's the era

1915
01:09:09.280 --> 01:09:11.780
- that we're moving into, and it's you know,

1916
01:09:11.920 --> 01:09:13.859
- we shall see. I look at

1917
01:09:14.800 --> 01:09:17.439
- Peter Feroli with Pantheon and what he's doing

1918
01:09:17.439 --> 01:09:19.765
- with liquid content and how he's looking at

1919
01:09:19.765 --> 01:09:20.505
- the audience.

1920
01:09:21.604 --> 01:09:23.524
- I don't know to the extent if he's

1921
01:09:23.524 --> 01:09:25.845
- doing exactly what you're saying, but he's looking

1922
01:09:25.845 --> 01:09:29.064
- at how do we create better audience experiences.

1923
01:09:29.284 --> 01:09:31.210
- So it's like, look, if I only have

1924
01:09:31.210 --> 01:09:33.449
- a thousand people listening as opposed to a

1925
01:09:33.449 --> 01:09:35.689
- million people listening, I'd rather have those thousand

1926
01:09:35.689 --> 01:09:37.689
- people that are more engaged that I'm able

1927
01:09:37.689 --> 01:09:38.670
- to as a host

1928
01:09:39.130 --> 01:09:41.310
- connect more with that audience,

1929
01:09:42.010 --> 01:09:42.510
- than

1930
01:09:43.024 --> 01:09:43.604
- the passive

1931
01:09:44.304 --> 01:09:45.764
- listening and trying to go, Hey,

1932
01:09:46.224 --> 01:09:48.864
- write me, email me, DM me, whatever it

1933
01:09:48.864 --> 01:09:51.185
- may be. It's like, no, literally watch it

1934
01:09:51.185 --> 01:09:53.904
- in this experience and have, that one on

1935
01:09:53.904 --> 01:09:54.304
- one.

1936
01:09:55.185 --> 01:09:56.724
- The hard part about that is

1937
01:09:57.510 --> 01:09:58.489
- will the platforms

1938
01:09:59.829 --> 01:10:03.270
- will users change their behavior from the platform

1939
01:10:03.270 --> 01:10:05.109
- standpoint? And we go back to this Jay

1940
01:10:05.109 --> 01:10:06.889
- Shetty. We're trying to get

1941
01:10:07.429 --> 01:10:09.670
- a user who is watching Jay Shetty on

1942
01:10:09.670 --> 01:10:10.927
- YouTube going, like, hold on. Now I've gotta

1943
01:10:10.927 --> 01:10:11.059
- go and watch Netflix. Am I do I

1944
01:10:11.059 --> 01:10:11.175
- love Jay Shetty enough that I'm gonna go

1945
01:10:11.175 --> 01:10:11.849
- do that? Or,

1946
01:10:17.085 --> 01:10:18.064
- or, you know,

1947
01:10:18.685 --> 01:10:18.867
- if I'm gonna go do that, or, you

1948
01:10:18.867 --> 01:10:20.064
- know, if I'm gonna go find another subscriber,

1949
01:10:20.125 --> 01:10:22.764
- they're not a Netflix subscriber. Right. Then,

1950
01:10:23.164 --> 01:10:25.425
- then that's where the opportunity is for Netflix.

1951
01:10:26.364 --> 01:10:26.864
- Yeah.

1952
01:10:27.164 --> 01:10:28.064
- That'll be interesting.

1953
01:10:29.719 --> 01:10:30.199
- Yeah. So

1954
01:10:30.760 --> 01:10:33.579
- but eventually, that opportunity runs out.

1955
01:10:33.960 --> 01:10:36.380
- They will have captured all of Jay's audience

1956
01:10:37.000 --> 01:10:38.600
- at some point, whether it's a year from

1957
01:10:38.600 --> 01:10:40.359
- now or whatever, and they say, Jay, you

1958
01:10:40.359 --> 01:10:43.000
- know, that's it. But that's but, I mean,

1959
01:10:43.000 --> 01:10:46.024
- that's every contract. That's every contract. Yeah. It's

1960
01:10:46.024 --> 01:10:47.885
- probably a one year or two year term.

1961
01:10:48.824 --> 01:10:50.505
- I heard at one point that a lot

1962
01:10:50.505 --> 01:10:52.685
- of the shows that are in that Netflix

1963
01:10:52.744 --> 01:10:54.104
- deal, I don't know if this is accurate

1964
01:10:54.104 --> 01:10:55.465
- or not, are one year deals,

1965
01:10:56.840 --> 01:10:58.359
- which tells you everything you need to know.

1966
01:10:58.439 --> 01:11:00.359
- Sense. They're like, is this learning? Are we

1967
01:11:00.359 --> 01:11:02.679
- testing? Like, it's everything's test and learn right

1968
01:11:02.679 --> 01:11:04.439
- now. Yeah. Right. But I think Yeah. If

1969
01:11:04.439 --> 01:11:06.539
- you look at, sign up for

1970
01:11:07.319 --> 01:11:09.000
- what is it? I'll just put on my

1971
01:11:09.000 --> 01:11:09.979
- partnership hat,

1972
01:11:10.605 --> 01:11:13.105
- Amazon. Sign up for Amazon Prime and get,

1973
01:11:14.204 --> 01:11:17.005
- what was it? Paramount plus for free for

1974
01:11:17.005 --> 01:11:18.925
- three months. I mean, that is just the

1975
01:11:18.925 --> 01:11:21.244
- Paramount team and the the Amazon team going

1976
01:11:21.244 --> 01:11:21.905
- like, look,

1977
01:11:22.284 --> 01:11:24.359
- we're gonna pay you or it's a rev

1978
01:11:24.359 --> 01:11:24.859
- share

1979
01:11:25.319 --> 01:11:27.079
- or x amount of people will end up

1980
01:11:27.079 --> 01:11:28.920
- signing up. And if x amount of people

1981
01:11:28.920 --> 01:11:30.520
- sign up, we need to look at the

1982
01:11:30.520 --> 01:11:32.279
- lifetime value. So if I give you three

1983
01:11:32.279 --> 01:11:34.679
- months after that, will they stake around for

1984
01:11:34.679 --> 01:11:36.679
- a year? If so, then this was a

1985
01:11:36.679 --> 01:11:37.420
- worthy partnership.

1986
01:11:38.039 --> 01:11:40.385
- If not, then, hey, we did the marketing,

1987
01:11:40.524 --> 01:11:42.524
- and we made the big hoopla, but it

1988
01:11:42.524 --> 01:11:44.764
- didn't work. But, like, that's just partnership one

1989
01:11:44.764 --> 01:11:47.085
- zero one is just testing, learning, and and

1990
01:11:47.085 --> 01:11:49.085
- figuring how do we how do we grow

1991
01:11:49.085 --> 01:11:49.585
- this.

1992
01:11:50.045 --> 01:11:51.965
- Yeah. I mean, if we're talking about Netflix,

1993
01:11:51.965 --> 01:11:53.970
- I mean, it is a departure on their

1994
01:11:54.050 --> 01:11:56.050
- their brand relationship that they have with their

1995
01:11:56.050 --> 01:11:56.789
- user base.

1996
01:11:57.729 --> 01:11:59.489
- I don't think most people that, you know,

1997
01:11:59.489 --> 01:12:01.430
- for years that have subscribed to Netflix,

1998
01:12:02.050 --> 01:12:05.090
- think that that's a platform for video podcasts.

1999
01:12:05.090 --> 01:12:06.930
- I'm not sure that that was part of

2000
01:12:06.930 --> 01:12:07.989
- their brand association

2001
01:12:08.675 --> 01:12:11.315
- that has been so linked up with, movies,

2002
01:12:11.315 --> 01:12:12.215
- TV shows,

2003
01:12:12.675 --> 01:12:13.735
- and comedy.

2004
01:12:14.354 --> 01:12:14.854
- Comedy.

2005
01:12:15.555 --> 01:12:16.854
- If you get into the genres.

2006
01:12:17.235 --> 01:12:19.895
- Yeah. So, you know, that's,

2007
01:12:20.595 --> 01:12:22.435
- that's them trying to break out of the

2008
01:12:22.435 --> 01:12:22.829
- box

2009
01:12:23.470 --> 01:12:25.550
- of what they're trying to do. But in

2010
01:12:25.550 --> 01:12:26.750
- a lot of ways, it's kind of an

2011
01:12:26.750 --> 01:12:28.689
- old media model too. It's like,

2012
01:12:29.149 --> 01:12:31.149
- I'm, I'm going to be the curator of

2013
01:12:31.149 --> 01:12:34.130
- what people like. Right. And it's this gamble,

2014
01:12:34.829 --> 01:12:36.430
- on their part. I think if they really

2015
01:12:36.430 --> 01:12:38.270
- want to compete with podcasting, they open it

2016
01:12:38.270 --> 01:12:38.770
- up

2017
01:12:39.284 --> 01:12:39.784
- to

2018
01:12:40.405 --> 01:12:41.704
- all the video podcasts

2019
01:12:42.005 --> 01:12:43.305
- and have it over there.

2020
01:12:44.085 --> 01:12:44.585
- But

2021
01:12:45.204 --> 01:12:46.965
- that's just me and how I look at

2022
01:12:46.965 --> 01:12:48.965
- the market, which is a different. I couldn't

2023
01:12:48.965 --> 01:12:50.585
- see a Netflix doing that.

2024
01:12:50.965 --> 01:12:53.204
- I know. They they managing that is going

2025
01:12:53.204 --> 01:12:54.025
- to be tough.

2026
01:12:54.400 --> 01:12:57.060
- B the economics of that are tough, but

2027
01:12:57.199 --> 01:12:58.739
- the curation of that content

2028
01:12:59.199 --> 01:13:01.280
- is gonna be, is it difficult? But if

2029
01:13:01.280 --> 01:13:03.600
- you look at, Yeah. But that's, that's the

2030
01:13:03.600 --> 01:13:06.500
- old media model. Right? It's, it's the gatekeeper.

2031
01:13:06.960 --> 01:13:09.380
- Right? That's telling people what

2032
01:13:10.005 --> 01:13:12.885
- Netflix thinks that people want. Right. Which also

2033
01:13:12.885 --> 01:13:13.204
- is,

2034
01:13:14.164 --> 01:13:16.244
- is part of the algorithm play, which is

2035
01:13:16.244 --> 01:13:18.485
- kinda like what YouTube is even doing. Right.

2036
01:13:18.485 --> 01:13:21.364
- It's, it's picking the winners and losers based

2037
01:13:21.364 --> 01:13:23.204
- on how Spotify has been doing that with

2038
01:13:23.204 --> 01:13:25.305
- their algorithm for years. It's like

2039
01:13:25.789 --> 01:13:28.930
- now getting to that earlier curation era again.

2040
01:13:29.070 --> 01:13:31.010
- So Right. I mean, the

2041
01:13:31.470 --> 01:13:33.070
- the the difference is is if you look

2042
01:13:33.070 --> 01:13:34.989
- at radio and TV, you had a program

2043
01:13:34.989 --> 01:13:37.150
- director who would be like, yes, I bind

2044
01:13:37.150 --> 01:13:39.470
- this show. This is good. Or this is

2045
01:13:39.470 --> 01:13:40.930
- a good track, you know.

2046
01:13:41.755 --> 01:13:43.435
- I live in LA. So an artist that's

2047
01:13:43.435 --> 01:13:45.914
- trying to get their song onto K Rock

2048
01:13:45.914 --> 01:13:48.314
- here, it's like, well, couldn't get K Rock.

2049
01:13:48.314 --> 01:13:49.854
- So they end up with, like, a,

2050
01:13:50.555 --> 01:13:52.954
- the local station who then gets the,

2051
01:13:53.515 --> 01:13:55.515
- the local Yeah. Picks them up and that's

2052
01:13:55.515 --> 01:13:57.215
- how you go where they do their local,

2053
01:13:57.729 --> 01:13:58.470
- acts. I mean,

2054
01:13:59.170 --> 01:14:00.449
- at the end of the day, they're still

2055
01:14:00.449 --> 01:14:01.189
- all hustling.

2056
01:14:01.570 --> 01:14:03.250
- No matter what, they're all still trying to

2057
01:14:03.250 --> 01:14:05.489
- hustle, go like, who's controlling this? The difference

2058
01:14:05.489 --> 01:14:07.970
- is now it's an algorithm that's controlling that.

2059
01:14:07.970 --> 01:14:09.570
- Right. And so, you're trying to play the

2060
01:14:09.570 --> 01:14:12.074
- algorithmic game of, okay, How do I convince

2061
01:14:12.074 --> 01:14:14.635
- the computer to, give me a chance versus

2062
01:14:14.635 --> 01:14:16.475
- a human? The human, you can get them

2063
01:14:16.475 --> 01:14:17.835
- to give you a chance. Like, hey. I

2064
01:14:17.835 --> 01:14:19.914
- like this person. Take them out. Yeah. Wine

2065
01:14:19.914 --> 01:14:21.274
- and dine them. You can't do that at

2066
01:14:21.274 --> 01:14:23.215
- the computer. There goes the human element.

2067
01:14:23.899 --> 01:14:24.800
- Yeah. Here's a

2068
01:14:25.340 --> 01:14:26.079
- 20, you know,

2069
01:14:26.380 --> 01:14:29.579
- feature me. So, you know, it's, it's like,

2070
01:14:29.579 --> 01:14:31.500
- I'd I'd love the the new media show

2071
01:14:31.500 --> 01:14:33.899
- to be available on Netflix. Right. And it's

2072
01:14:33.899 --> 01:14:35.500
- really as simple as it's adding. It's just

2073
01:14:35.500 --> 01:14:36.800
- metadata. Right.

2074
01:14:37.104 --> 01:14:38.784
- And a person can go into their search

2075
01:14:38.784 --> 01:14:40.164
- query and search for,

2076
01:14:40.625 --> 01:14:41.284
- you know,

2077
01:14:41.585 --> 01:14:42.724
- shows about

2078
01:14:43.425 --> 01:14:45.685
- media or something like that. Right. And

2079
01:14:46.224 --> 01:14:46.804
- you know,

2080
01:14:47.505 --> 01:14:50.145
- it's just a different mindset. Right. And it's,

2081
01:14:50.145 --> 01:14:51.925
- it's a mindset that built

2082
01:14:52.500 --> 01:14:55.079
- the scale of YouTube. Right?

2083
01:14:55.460 --> 01:14:57.380
- So I would hate for us to fall

2084
01:14:57.380 --> 01:15:00.199
- back into an earlier era of how,

2085
01:15:01.300 --> 01:15:01.800
- gatekeepers

2086
01:15:02.260 --> 01:15:05.000
- gatekeep content based on their preferences

2087
01:15:05.380 --> 01:15:07.079
- versus the user's preferences.

2088
01:15:08.045 --> 01:15:10.845
- So it's it's, you know, that's the tension

2089
01:15:10.845 --> 01:15:12.625
- that I see in the market right now.

2090
01:15:12.845 --> 01:15:14.465
- I think, I look at

2091
01:15:15.885 --> 01:15:16.385
- Asia's,

2092
01:15:17.164 --> 01:15:20.789
- Asia corpus win with Stope Rose. Her background's

2093
01:15:20.789 --> 01:15:23.250
- in entertainment. So she's literally looking at this

2094
01:15:23.469 --> 01:15:24.989
- as how do I turn this into an

2095
01:15:24.989 --> 01:15:26.210
- entertainment distribution

2096
01:15:26.670 --> 01:15:29.789
- or Jeffrey Haslett with the c suite, and

2097
01:15:29.789 --> 01:15:32.109
- his background's in entertainment. And so they're looking

2098
01:15:32.109 --> 01:15:33.010
- at this as

2099
01:15:33.345 --> 01:15:35.925
- fast channels. They're looking at this as distribution

2100
01:15:36.305 --> 01:15:39.685
- on TV. So they're creating this network effect

2101
01:15:40.305 --> 01:15:42.484
- of media across not just

2102
01:15:42.784 --> 01:15:43.284
- podcast,

2103
01:15:43.664 --> 01:15:46.305
- YouTube, but as they both told me, the

2104
01:15:46.305 --> 01:15:48.930
- technology, it's not so easy to create a

2105
01:15:48.930 --> 01:15:50.930
- fast channel. We all think, like, alright, this

2106
01:15:50.930 --> 01:15:53.409
- is easy to to aggregate shows and create

2107
01:15:53.409 --> 01:15:54.229
- a fast channel.

2108
01:15:54.930 --> 01:15:55.989
- Before I joined,

2109
01:15:56.449 --> 01:15:57.329
- rss.com,

2110
01:15:57.329 --> 01:15:58.850
- I was working with a buddy who had

2111
01:15:58.850 --> 01:16:00.690
- that whole concept. He's like, I knew fast

2112
01:16:00.690 --> 01:16:04.185
- channels. Greg go source me the podcast so

2113
01:16:04.185 --> 01:16:05.704
- I can create these fast channels. But the

2114
01:16:05.704 --> 01:16:08.444
- technology around it, especially with with the advertising

2115
01:16:08.664 --> 01:16:11.225
- side, is is not that easy. So there's

2116
01:16:11.225 --> 01:16:13.944
- still a gatekeeping component. There's still a buy

2117
01:16:13.944 --> 01:16:17.064
- in. So, Jeffrey, it's you pay $2,500

2118
01:16:17.064 --> 01:16:19.149
- to join his network. But by joining the

2119
01:16:19.149 --> 01:16:21.869
- network, you now are business shows talking to

2120
01:16:21.869 --> 01:16:24.449
- C suite. It's created a whole fast channel.

2121
01:16:24.510 --> 01:16:25.010
- But

2122
01:16:25.710 --> 01:16:28.670
- other networks other podcast networks I'm talking to

2123
01:16:28.670 --> 01:16:30.829
- could all do that if they, a, knew

2124
01:16:30.829 --> 01:16:31.649
- that medium,

2125
01:16:33.034 --> 01:16:34.954
- were to hire someone to help them with

2126
01:16:34.954 --> 01:16:37.515
- that media. So, like, you can increase your

2127
01:16:37.515 --> 01:16:38.015
- distribution.

2128
01:16:38.875 --> 01:16:41.274
- But regardless of the increase of distribution, it

2129
01:16:41.274 --> 01:16:42.814
- still then comes back to the marketing.

2130
01:16:43.195 --> 01:16:45.114
- Once it's distributed, you still have to let

2131
01:16:45.114 --> 01:16:47.409
- people know, hey. So, Rob, if you were

2132
01:16:47.409 --> 01:16:49.489
- to tell people, listen to this show wherever

2133
01:16:49.489 --> 01:16:52.530
- you consume any content you wanna consume. Oh,

2134
01:16:52.530 --> 01:16:54.289
- I can go to Netflix and type this

2135
01:16:54.289 --> 01:16:56.689
- in. Yes. Technically, that would be the dream,

2136
01:16:56.689 --> 01:16:59.114
- but they still have to know. And and

2137
01:16:59.114 --> 01:17:01.074
- it's like going to your Blockbuster back in

2138
01:17:01.074 --> 01:17:02.435
- the day. Like, alright. I have to look

2139
01:17:02.435 --> 01:17:03.795
- for this or I have to type this

2140
01:17:03.795 --> 01:17:06.034
- in or know what I'm looking for. They

2141
01:17:06.034 --> 01:17:08.194
- still have to remember your show or know

2142
01:17:08.194 --> 01:17:09.954
- about your show, so it's still marketing your

2143
01:17:09.954 --> 01:17:12.479
- show regardless of where it's consumed. Yeah. No.

2144
01:17:12.479 --> 01:17:14.739
- Definitely, it's still the the challenge.

2145
01:17:15.119 --> 01:17:17.199
- And having, you know, let's say, just give

2146
01:17:17.199 --> 01:17:19.840
- an example, if we had, you know, 1,000,000

2147
01:17:19.840 --> 01:17:22.579
- video podcasts in Netflix today,

2148
01:17:22.960 --> 01:17:25.199
- then that's exactly what the challenge is. And

2149
01:17:25.199 --> 01:17:27.635
- how is Netflix going to gatekeep a million

2150
01:17:27.635 --> 01:17:29.795
- video podcasts? Or how how are they even

2151
01:17:29.795 --> 01:17:32.355
- gonna feature and promote that too is another

2152
01:17:32.355 --> 01:17:35.074
- element of this. Owned and operated, where they

2153
01:17:35.074 --> 01:17:37.574
- make their money most money, what's the economics

2154
01:17:37.635 --> 01:17:39.715
- of it? I mean, everyone listening, you all

2155
01:17:39.715 --> 01:17:41.729
- know we've seen this song and dance. It's

2156
01:17:41.970 --> 01:17:43.649
- it's my own show. Of course, I'm gonna

2157
01:17:43.649 --> 01:17:45.970
- promote my own show because the economics are

2158
01:17:45.970 --> 01:17:48.449
- there as opposed to Rob's show, which maybe

2159
01:17:48.449 --> 01:17:50.630
- be a better show than my show, but

2160
01:17:51.010 --> 01:17:52.689
- I make more money on my show than

2161
01:17:52.689 --> 01:17:54.210
- I will on Rob. So sorry, Rob. I

2162
01:17:54.210 --> 01:17:55.409
- don't care if you have a better show.

2163
01:17:55.409 --> 01:17:57.244
- We're not gonna show you. And that's, that's

2164
01:17:57.244 --> 01:17:59.724
- the gatekeeping no matter what. Right. Yeah. No,

2165
01:17:59.724 --> 01:18:01.564
- that's that. That's very true. I built a,

2166
01:18:01.564 --> 01:18:04.125
- a video podcast network on the windows media

2167
01:18:04.125 --> 01:18:06.045
- center back when I worked at Microsoft. So

2168
01:18:06.045 --> 01:18:07.724
- I took all the video podcasts that I

2169
01:18:07.724 --> 01:18:09.264
- had in my zoom podcast

2170
01:18:09.750 --> 01:18:11.670
- platform, which was about, I had about eleven,

2171
01:18:11.670 --> 01:18:14.789
- twelve thousand video podcasts. Wow. Out of the,

2172
01:18:14.789 --> 01:18:16.969
- out of the 25, 30,000

2173
01:18:17.269 --> 01:18:19.050
- RSS feeds that I had in the catalog.

2174
01:18:19.109 --> 01:18:21.989
- And we built a, an app for windows

2175
01:18:21.989 --> 01:18:24.010
- media center, which was the windows,

2176
01:18:24.645 --> 01:18:27.444
- experience on televisions back in that, back in

2177
01:18:27.444 --> 01:18:28.345
- that time era.

2178
01:18:28.885 --> 01:18:31.204
- And, and so people could go into that

2179
01:18:31.204 --> 01:18:33.545
- app and look for all the video podcasts,

2180
01:18:33.925 --> 01:18:35.225
- and play it on their televisions.

2181
01:18:35.925 --> 01:18:38.350
- So, you know, that's, that's what comes back

2182
01:18:38.350 --> 01:18:40.030
- in my mind about all this. Well, this

2183
01:18:40.030 --> 01:18:41.329
- is, as we move into this,

2184
01:18:41.630 --> 01:18:44.989
- yeah, into this new era of, HLS streaming,

2185
01:18:44.989 --> 01:18:47.150
- because even back then we weren't doing HLS

2186
01:18:47.150 --> 01:18:49.789
- streaming. It was all a download playback, even

2187
01:18:49.789 --> 01:18:52.030
- on windows media center where all the other

2188
01:18:52.030 --> 01:18:54.435
- content was all, all the TV shows and

2189
01:18:54.435 --> 01:18:56.835
- movies were all playing off of HLS streaming,

2190
01:18:56.835 --> 01:18:58.614
- even back in 2010.

2191
01:18:59.395 --> 01:19:01.715
- So, you know, that's, what's really changed now

2192
01:19:01.715 --> 01:19:04.935
- is that the distribution capability of podcasts now

2193
01:19:05.074 --> 01:19:06.054
- is really evolved

2194
01:19:06.435 --> 01:19:06.935
- into

2195
01:19:07.395 --> 01:19:09.920
- direct competition with these existing

2196
01:19:10.300 --> 01:19:12.779
- distribution platforms that we see today that are

2197
01:19:12.779 --> 01:19:13.279
- dominating.

2198
01:19:13.579 --> 01:19:15.739
- And so, you know, I think if podcasting

2199
01:19:15.739 --> 01:19:18.060
- embraces podcasting two point zero and has the

2200
01:19:18.060 --> 01:19:20.939
- alternative enclosures and is able to make, the

2201
01:19:20.939 --> 01:19:23.835
- HLS streams available and alternative enclosures, then I

2202
01:19:23.835 --> 01:19:26.795
- think that this opens this wide open to

2203
01:19:26.795 --> 01:19:29.274
- being able to support all sorts of, apps

2204
01:19:29.274 --> 01:19:30.974
- and all sorts of ecosystems

2205
01:19:31.594 --> 01:19:34.494
- that will be more private type of distribution

2206
01:19:34.954 --> 01:19:38.050
- options as well into individual apps and other

2207
01:19:38.050 --> 01:19:40.069
- types of, consumption platforms

2208
01:19:40.449 --> 01:19:42.770
- where what we're doing today with HLS is

2209
01:19:42.770 --> 01:19:45.029
- very siloed to apple. Right. And,

2210
01:19:45.409 --> 01:19:47.569
- and I'm not sure that that, is the

2211
01:19:47.569 --> 01:19:50.449
- right choice for, you know, the podcast industry

2212
01:19:50.449 --> 01:19:52.345
- to silo it like that. I mean, I

2213
01:19:52.345 --> 01:19:53.305
- think what is it?

2214
01:19:53.864 --> 01:19:56.824
- My podcast is on HLS. You could consume

2215
01:19:56.824 --> 01:19:59.225
- it on Apple video right now, but I

2216
01:19:59.225 --> 01:20:01.064
- couldn't. I have a a I have a

2217
01:20:01.064 --> 01:20:03.625
- a Tesla, so I can't actually consume my

2218
01:20:03.625 --> 01:20:04.445
- own podcast

2219
01:20:05.220 --> 01:20:07.380
- on my car if I wanted to listen

2220
01:20:07.380 --> 01:20:08.760
- to it because right now,

2221
01:20:09.460 --> 01:20:12.420
- for whatever reason, the Apple Podcast experience in

2222
01:20:12.420 --> 01:20:15.140
- Tesla does not allow video, or I couldn't

2223
01:20:15.140 --> 01:20:16.899
- watch it on my Apple TV if I

2224
01:20:16.899 --> 01:20:19.024
- wanted to. So, like, it's funny to know,

2225
01:20:19.024 --> 01:20:21.685
- like, even my own podcast, I can't consume

2226
01:20:22.145 --> 01:20:24.545
- within the Apple ecosystem where I would normally

2227
01:20:24.545 --> 01:20:27.585
- consume podcasts. But it does consume a separate

2228
01:20:27.585 --> 01:20:29.764
- RSS feed with the audio in it. So

2229
01:20:30.079 --> 01:20:32.079
- I've got a Tesla Tesla model three unless

2230
01:20:32.079 --> 01:20:32.979
- they changed it.

2231
01:20:34.000 --> 01:20:35.760
- I know it's well, if you have a

2232
01:20:35.760 --> 01:20:38.319
- separate RSS feed with just the audio. Oh,

2233
01:20:38.319 --> 01:20:41.119
- gotcha. In a separate RSS feed with the

2234
01:20:41.119 --> 01:20:43.695
- video, you can still access the show, but

2235
01:20:43.695 --> 01:20:45.074
- yeah, in your Tesla,

2236
01:20:45.534 --> 01:20:48.255
- the video experience is completely kind of wiped

2237
01:20:48.255 --> 01:20:50.135
- out. Right. But I can't even listen to

2238
01:20:50.135 --> 01:20:52.655
- it. Yeah. That's right. You can find, I

2239
01:20:52.655 --> 01:20:53.314
- can find

2240
01:20:53.614 --> 01:20:55.859
- the clip to actually exactly it won't play.

2241
01:20:56.340 --> 01:20:58.020
- Right because they don't want people playing video

2242
01:20:58.020 --> 01:21:00.119
- in the car yet that day's coming.

2243
01:21:00.899 --> 01:21:01.399
- So,

2244
01:21:02.100 --> 01:21:03.619
- hardware four car or do you have a

2245
01:21:03.619 --> 01:21:05.380
- hardware three car or do you know, I

2246
01:21:05.380 --> 01:21:07.300
- don't even know what that means. What's the

2247
01:21:07.300 --> 01:21:08.944
- model year? '24

2248
01:21:09.324 --> 01:21:11.885
- model three. '24. Okay. Well, you could have,

2249
01:21:12.204 --> 01:21:14.045
- the hardware four, which means that you're gonna

2250
01:21:14.045 --> 01:21:14.944
- get unsupervised

2251
01:21:15.484 --> 01:21:17.005
- full self driving in that car at some

2252
01:21:17.005 --> 01:21:19.404
- point, which means which means you won't have

2253
01:21:19.404 --> 01:21:21.989
- to pay attention to driving. You could watch

2254
01:21:21.989 --> 01:21:24.390
- your video podcasts in the car and probably

2255
01:21:24.390 --> 01:21:26.569
- turn that on. I've, I've, I've done that.

2256
01:21:26.630 --> 01:21:28.550
- It's fun when I get it, but now,

2257
01:21:28.550 --> 01:21:29.050
- yeah.

2258
01:21:29.510 --> 01:21:31.109
- Right. Well, Greg, it was great to have

2259
01:21:31.109 --> 01:21:32.789
- you on the LUND media show. I don't

2260
01:21:32.789 --> 01:21:34.935
- think you'd been on before, so no, Rob,

2261
01:21:34.935 --> 01:21:36.375
- it's a pleasure. I got it now. I

2262
01:21:36.375 --> 01:21:38.074
- mean, since you're part of two networks,

2263
01:21:38.375 --> 01:21:40.135
- I gotta bring you on my show and

2264
01:21:40.135 --> 01:21:41.734
- and we could talk about the the networks

2265
01:21:41.734 --> 01:21:43.734
- that you've run and operated and and work

2266
01:21:43.734 --> 01:21:45.814
- in. But yeah, it's it's interesting to see

2267
01:21:45.814 --> 01:21:47.494
- where this is all going, where new media

2268
01:21:47.494 --> 01:21:49.574
- is going, but from the perspective, not only

2269
01:21:49.574 --> 01:21:50.930
- of arsys.com

2270
01:21:51.069 --> 01:21:53.149
- and what we've got, but then my show

2271
01:21:53.149 --> 01:21:56.289
- podcast network insights is just, it's, it's fun.

2272
01:21:56.430 --> 01:21:58.670
- And I'm enjoying where the industry is taking

2273
01:21:58.670 --> 01:22:01.489
- us. Yeah. Well, it's, it's gonna be rapidly

2274
01:22:01.550 --> 01:22:02.050
- changing.

2275
01:22:02.524 --> 01:22:05.405
- And, and I'm, I'm happy to see rss.com

2276
01:22:05.405 --> 01:22:07.725
- really kind of being at the forefront of

2277
01:22:07.725 --> 01:22:10.364
- this and building this out, things like that,

2278
01:22:10.364 --> 01:22:12.945
- and really trying to support it and actively

2279
01:22:13.085 --> 01:22:15.869
- participating in podcasting two point zero initiative and

2280
01:22:15.869 --> 01:22:18.110
- trying to lead even on the, on the

2281
01:22:18.110 --> 01:22:21.229
- AI labeling questions. Yeah. Alberto did an amazing

2282
01:22:21.229 --> 01:22:22.510
- job on that, but we didn't even talk

2283
01:22:22.510 --> 01:22:24.590
- about that, but yeah, it's, it's literally, how

2284
01:22:24.590 --> 01:22:26.510
- do we create a standard for labeling? Well,

2285
01:22:26.510 --> 01:22:27.869
- he's going to be on the show here

2286
01:22:27.869 --> 01:22:29.664
- soon. So there you go. So of course

2287
01:22:29.664 --> 01:22:31.104
- I have to get Alberto on the show

2288
01:22:31.104 --> 01:22:32.164
- to talk about labeling.

2289
01:22:33.025 --> 01:22:34.625
- So, all right, Greg. Well, thank you so

2290
01:22:34.625 --> 01:22:36.625
- much. And I appreciate everybody that's watching this

2291
01:22:36.625 --> 01:22:37.104
- live,

2292
01:22:37.425 --> 01:22:39.425
- today. I appreciate it. And you can get

2293
01:22:39.425 --> 01:22:40.085
- this show

2294
01:22:40.430 --> 01:22:42.590
- as an audio and video podcast. I'm, I'm

2295
01:22:42.590 --> 01:22:45.630
- still not supporting HLS yet, but that day

2296
01:22:45.630 --> 01:22:46.289
- is coming,

2297
01:22:47.310 --> 01:22:47.810
- hopefully,

2298
01:22:48.430 --> 01:22:49.570
- one way or another.

2299
01:22:50.072 --> 01:22:50.572
- So,

2300
01:22:51.113 --> 01:22:53.273
- so anyway, well, thank you so much and,

2301
01:22:53.993 --> 01:22:55.532
- have a great rest of your week.

2302
01:22:56.233 --> 01:22:58.412
- It's a short week this week. So Greg,

2303
01:22:58.792 --> 01:23:00.552
- thanks. Have a good one. All right. Thank

2304
01:23:00.552 --> 01:23:01.707
- you everybody. Bye.